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Experiencing Resistance Getting Dog Spayed
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09-01-2016 3:30pm#1
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ToniTuddle wrote: »
1. If a dog is microchipped with your details is that dog legally yours?
No. Not as it stands. The person to whom the dog is licensed is legally considered the owner under current legislation.2. How can you change old farmer type attitudes that spaying the dog is a good idea?
Ahhh, the six million dollar question, huh?!
I think a lot of it involves peeling back the myths and old-wives'-tales as dispassionately and factually as you can.
Spayed females do live longer, and tend to be healthier.
I train and work detection dogs for a State agency, and come into contact with all the other agencies that work dogs in the State. Spaying in no way impairs performance. In fact, it means the dogs can work every day of the year, rather than missing out on 6 weeks of work whilst they're in heat and vulnerable, more if she has a litter!
I also have worked in the past with gundog folk who have seen no difference in the working performance of their bitches when spayed.
Another thing to bear in mind... Ireland is stuffed, stuffed, stuffed to the rafters with collies and collie crosses. There are far, far more of them than there are homes for them. Unless your dad's dog is from a line in hot demand, and he's happy he's got dead-cert, good homes for them all, then he's just contributing to an already-too-high mountain
3. How long does it take a female to recover?
There are loads of threads on this if you do a search... Most bitches are almost back to normal the following day, or Day 2 post op. You'll occasionally get one that takes a little longer, but in my experience at least, these are the exception.4. Anything I can do to help with the recovery process?
Is she allowed in the house?
A warm, comfy spot. No free-running. I would avoid very muddy places to walk her. And get her an inflatable collar rather than have her endure the Cone of Shame :-o5. Is there a high risk of incontinence after?
I don't have figures to hand, but the likelihood is very low. Early spaying, and allowing the dog become overweight, seem to increase the odds... But they're still low.6. Keeping dog entertained while recovering?
Personally, I've never much changed the dog's normal routine, other than cutting back on exercise and keeping her on-lead. It's not as if you have to keep her confined in a crate. I might review this reply if you tell me she's an outdoor dog though!0 -
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Thanks for the replies folks!My girl was groggy the first evening and fine the next day. I kept her on lead for walks and tried not to have her jumping around or playing with my other dog until the stitches where out to be safe. No problems with it at all tbh. For the incontinence I think it's more a risk with early spaying? Has she had a heat before?
I've no idea if she has as I don't always have daily contact with her and my father most definitely wouldn't notice. But any of the times I have had her she hasn't shown any of the symptoms of being in heat.No. Not as it stands. The person to whom the dog is licensed is legally considered the owner under current legislation.
First of all thanks for your detailed reply, much appreciated!
I was soo concerned with making sure she had all the vet side of things covered. He never brought a dog to the vets in his life but I didn't give him a choice this time round. I mentioned a license to him at the start but don't know if he followed through on it. I'll find out this week.Ahhh, the six million dollar question, huh?!
I think a lot of it involves peeling back the myths and old-wives'-tales as dispassionately and factually as you can.
Spayed females do live longer, and tend to be healthier.
I train and work detection dogs for a State agency, and come into contact with all the other agencies that work dogs in the State. Spaying in no way impairs performance. In fact, it means the dogs can work every day of the year, rather than missing out on 6 weeks of work whilst they're in heat and vulnerable, more if she has a litter!
I also have worked in the past with gundog folk who have seen no difference in the working performance of their bitches when spayed.
Another thing to bear in mind... Ireland is stuffed, stuffed, stuffed to the rafters with collies and collie crosses. There are far, far more of them than there are homes for them. Unless your dad's dog is from a line in hot demand, and he's happy he's got dead-cert, good homes for them all, then he's just contributing to an already-too-high mountain
Thanks those are some good points. She's not even a proper working dog he only has her near sheep maybe once or twice a week. It's old fashioned notions they have but going in with facts like that will be good. My other family member after saying she wouldn't be a proper working dog if she was spayed also said she'd end up being a "pet" dog.
I think they meant....soft....or maybe timid. I've no idea, can't understand their logic at all but I know it's due to lack of information. I'm starting to learn with people who have these views you can't come at them with the emotional side it's too defensive. Simple facts told in a simple matter of fact way seems to get through much better.
Oh I know all about the rescues and pounds-follow them all on FB! Think the majority of folks haven't got a clue what's going on. Or else thet can't imagine the physical amount of dogs being put down/going through the resecue/pound system.
Oh is she hell from a good line
He tried to big her up talking about his friend who is a "breeder" and sells his pups for ridiculous money but because they are friends he got to have a free one. He tried being polite and said whichever one you want to give me will do. So of course the farmer twat gives him the runt of the litter. She's beautiful without a doubt very striking but definite runt! When I got more information out of him...yeah his friend is nothing more than a farmer chancing his damn arm. Breeder my arse. One look at her and I knew something was very wrong with her paws. Turns out she had a severe calcium deficiency. She's all better now thankfully.There are loads of threads on this if you do a search... Most bitches are almost back to normal the following day, or Day 2 post op. You'll occasionally get one that takes a little longer, but in my experience at least, these are the exception.
Sorry yeah I starting searching and reading a few of them after I posted this up, should have done it beforehand
Just wanted peoples personal experiences even though I know it can be different for every dog.Is she allowed in the house?
A warm, comfy spot. No free-running. I would avoid very muddy places to walk her. And get her an inflatable collar rather than have her endure the Cone of Shame :-o
She's allowed in mine...well my bedroom
Due to some housetraining accidents when she was younger the rest of family don't trust her to roam freely in house. I kept her a lot when she was younger to get her housetrained and know basic obedience so she would be easier for my father to handle and easier for him to get his head round the idea of having a dog in the house. He says he has her in most nights now but.....I'm not sure how much I believe him.
Going to be having a discussion with him about having her in house a lot more/all the time this week too. I've given him a lot of free reign and tried to take it at his pace but enough is enough he's had plenty of warnings off me and this dog will not end up having the life that previous dogs have had with him.
Inflatable collar is on the list. Those plastic cones are a nightmare even the small ones I had for the cats!I don't have figures to hand, but the likelihood is very low. Early spaying, and allowing the dog become overweight, seem to increase the odds... But they're still low.
I'm mainly concerned with this as if she ended up incontinent then there's no way in hell he would ever bring her into the house again. At the minute he's very happy with how she lets him know when she has to go. Or if he is asleep she will bark. But if she were incontinent then there would be no inside life which would mean she would be stuck outside pretty much 24/7 with zero contact with anyone unless me when I wouldn't be working and could take her over to mine. But frankly if she did end up incontinent then I'd take her full time as there's no way she is having that life stuck outside. But that's another issue as there are other family members to consider who might have a problem with that.Personally, I've never much changed the dog's normal routine, other than cutting back on exercise and keeping her on-lead. It's not as if you have to keep her confined in a crate. I might review this reply if you tell me she's an outdoor dog though!
I'll be off all week from the Monday until Saturday evening so she can be with me all that week for recovery. But Saturday evening and all through until Monday morning she would be at my fathers again. So I'm hoping she will be well recovered by Saturday evening.ihatewinter wrote: »My dog was spayed when she was 2 years of age. She was a working dog till she was 15, never noticed a difference in temperament, desire to work or ability to work. Only thing that has to be done is cut back on the amount of food. My dog who suffered a stroke 7-8 weeks ago is still not incontinent, so don't worry about that.
She's quite the lean dog to be fair, I'd be happy to see a bit more meat on her!
Sorry to hear about your dogs stroke are they making a good recovery?0 -
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ToniTuddle wrote: »I've no idea if she has as I don't always have daily contact with her and my father most definitely wouldn't notice. But any of the times I have had her she hasn't shown any of the symptoms of being in heat.
I asked because with my girl she had her first (and only) heat at 13 months and frankly we were taken aback by the mess(!) Like we had little pants on her etc but there was clean up operations a few times a day that I can't imagine any of the boys in our family being able to deal with without fainting lol!
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Incontinence that occurs in older spayed bitches is also called 'spay incontinence' (and is, as you said, thought to result from changes in hormones) as is incontinence caused by adhesions shortly after surgery. So it doesn't need to be necessarily shortly afterwards.
Sorry, I know I'm being pedantic now
, but incontinence in an older spayed bitch, whilst most likely related to sphincter weakness related to lack of hormones, is not always related to being spayed. There are other causes. I know they're not as common, but just because an older spayed bitch becomes incontinent, doesn't mean she is referred to as having spay incontinence 
By way of example, my elderly spayed female loses bladder control when in a deep sleep. She's on medication for epilepsy that (a) makes her drink more, and (b) makes her sleep deeper. This combination means that her brain doesn't always wake her up when her bladder is full. Meds or no meds, this is a form of incontinence that many elderly dogs develop... In her case it started immediately after she started the anti-seizure meds. It's not related to her being spayed.
Other spayed females I know became incontinent due to Cushing's disease, or use of other meds such as steroids.0 -
No, you're grand, pedantry is an important part of effective communication!
My point about two posts ago is that historically the incontinence widespread in (usually older) spayed bitches has been referred to as 'spay incontinence' and thought to be as a result of the hormone changes associated with spaying, hence why it's included in the review of papers on the risks and benefits of spaying and neutering. But as I said previously "it's not sure how far the risk is increased by spaying. That the bitches might have been incontinent if not spayed anyway." In other words I already agree with you. The evidence, according to those who have reviewed the literature, isn't quite strong enough to make that association definitively.
http://www.merck-animal-health-usa.com/diseases/Urinary-Incontinence/overview.aspx time of onset of incontinence after spaying is 2.9 years, according to this source.
Edit: I didn't intend to suggest that was the only cause of incontinence in older spayed females- just that 'spay incontinence' is often used for the incontinence that occurs in older females, it doesn't need to happen right after the surgery to be called 'spay incontinence'.0 -
The link here has good information about spaying and its effects. http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/04/benefits-and-risks-of-neutering-an-evidence-based-approach/
Basically about incontinence, from what I can see while incontinence is common in older spayed female dogs (5-30%) it's usually treatable and it's not sure how far the risk is increased by spaying. That the bitches might have been incontinent if not spayed anyway.
Keeping the dog entertained while recovering- if you can find a Kong or similar. I've found one in tesco for a tenner for a big one, you can get other brands (like busy buddy ones or some kind of green hedgehog from jollypet) often for cheaper at pet shops. Basically it's good strong toy made out of rubber with a space inside to put food in. Then you can put the dog's dinner in it, put a little canned food to seal it in, and freeze it. It'll give her something to distract herself.
A normal-weight dog can look a bit alarming if you're used to ordinary pet dogs, a high proportion of which are too fat (I've seen estimates of 1/3 of dogs in the UK and 1/2 in the US). Or some collies are just naturally that bit leaner. If she has reasonable muscle on her, doesn't have her spine sticking out etc. she will probably live longer for being leaner. There's a very rough rule of thumb about dog weight- if you make a fist and feel the bones at the back of your hand, her ribs should have about that much covering on them. It's not a lot. If they're more like your knuckles, sticking out, the dog's too thin. If they're more like the bones across the base of your fingers, above the palm, the dog has a little too much weight. http://www.successjustclicks.com/fit-fido-or-fat-fido/ More info and pics here.
Thanks for that, plenty to read. Suppose I've gotten used to seeing mostly overly well fed dogs it's become the norm without even realising it. I must check her weight and try out the hand test.
Had a small kong when she was younger so must invest in a bigger one now. She's very good at playing with her toys she likes to pick them up and toss them in air. But she's most happy when I'm sitting on floor and she can lie across my legs chewing on her toys. Judging by the comments I can easily take her for her walks. Only area I'd see a problem(with excessive movement) is she gets crazy excited when she knows she's going but this time with her I'll be able to work on calming her down and some more one on one training. If I can make her that bit more calm it would help with the father having her in the house.I had assumed (perhaps wrongly?) that the op was referring specifically to the condition known as "spay incontinence", which is related to spaying and occurs in bitches shortly after the operation, regardless of age. I think it's related to loss of condition of the sphincter muscles when the hormones are removed. Bitches with spay incontinence are generally more likely to show symptoms if they're overweight, and it is associated more with bitches who were spayed young.
Nope you were right I was referring to spay incontinence specifically. I'd worked with two Labs before, sisters who'd been spayed at same time at young age but one had developed incontinece. But not sure if it was directly after or few months later. There were other dogs around(daycare) and we didn't know it had been her peeing until she was sitting in a pool of it wagging her tail oblivious to it!
Well I'll be able to discuss it with my Father to at least give him a heads up in case there is any accidents or it starts. But at same time I don't want to say anything in case it never happens. If he thinks she could start randomly peeing again he could not let her in house. I'm just going to have to monitor the situation more closely, it's just all a bit...awkward/tense trying to navigate the situation.
But I know I can't leave her intact as he will try and get a litter out of her. He has done it with any dog we have ever had when I was wee. That stupid notion of a dog needs to have at least one litter is engraved in his damn brain.
Oh and the dog license has to be renewed every year? If it was being renewed can you put a new name on it? Or what's the story there.I asked because with my girl she had her first (and only) heat at 13 months and frankly we were taken aback by the mess(!) Like we had little pants on her etc but there was clean up operations a few times a day that I can't imagine any of the boys in our family being able to deal with without fainting lol!
I've only ever dealt with cats in heat....zero craic and a lot of noise! :pac:
None of that would bother me, in fact that would probably be much easier to handle than the dreaded Poo Vomit!0
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