The Frankel Foals Watch Thread!

antietam

I've obviously stood alone about Frankel Progeny from day one. IMO Galileo progeny[not allowed outside Coolmore],have shares in every single colt/filly are performing shocking as if bloodline is gone.Be My Guest made the foundation followed by the tiny[Saddlers Well's a copy of his brilliant Canadian dad].I believe Coolmore are in a shocking state for real 2yr old/1.2m fast horses/3yr olds as most of their winners will be nh producing 3m winners at Hexham/Sligo/and every muck track in winter.Would be nice if someone could give a different take on my assumption of understanding regards the value of Frankel going forward as a sire considering how much Goebbels propaganda he has got.Piper Bomb should win.

BumperD

You stated his progeny would not provide ONE group 1 winner. And stood alone there. And were proved wrong.

Regarding the hype, I’d agree on that point, he’s been hyped up , why wouldn’t he given the bloodline, but so far, results average enough but time will tell.

Would also agree a replacement for Gaileo needed but ones like him are as rare as hens teeth would you not agree. Hence everyone was hoping/ some hyping , that we have a ready replacement

antietam

I absolutely stand alone on the value of Frankel as a sire,this is my stance from his start as a stallion.I value your intellect with this regard but this is my absolute opinion of a stallion who has produced MORE 2yr olds with blinkers ever in history and every decent horse as 4yr old look claimers at best.If IM WRONG GIVE EXAMPLES.800 sired by Frankel have not made the track[BHA stud facts] why??

BumperD

Another Group 1 for Frankel, this time over 2m 4f. This time a 4 year old.

tryfix

BumperD wrote: »

Another Group 1 for Frankel, this time over 2m 4f. This time a 4 year old.

That was a nice filip for him after a string of his more highly tried types recently showed a lack of expected improvement. Looking through this weekend's declarations he had an awful lot of entries over 12f+ compared to the shorter distances. That's fairly disappointing for a stallion in his fee bracket.

Just yesterday the mega bucks Old Glory got seen off behind a No Nay Never colt in a weak enough listed 2yo race on the all-weather at Dundalk.

Today Veracious showed that not even the mighty Michael Stoute could get a Frankel to hold their form when she finished a well beaten 7L behind Laurens.

Today as well the Frankel hype saw First Eleven ( OR 104 ) start 11/10f favourite in the GP3 Cumberland Lodge where he was beaten 6L+ by an OR 112 and OR 109 pair who were allowed go off at 11/2 and 11/4 respectively.



They're very strange yokes these Frankels, they look like they're going to be great yokes after winning a race and then let you down like a ton of bricks when they regress after they are asked to repeat the feat in good company.

tryfix

*Bump*


Now that Frankel's superstar Cracksman has left the racing field has anyone spotted or heard rumours of the next Cracksman in waiting amongst this year's Frankel 2yos?

tryfix

Classy Group performer Eminent has left Martyn Meade's Manton base to continue his career in Australia, where he is expected to be campaigned at the Melbourne spring carnival.

The move was a surprise to Meade, who retired the son of Frankel after a disappointing four-year-old campaign blighted by heart issues.

Meade said: "I thought I'd retired Eminent after he'd run at Goodwood in August as his heart was not really in it, but the owners wanted to take him to Australia so he's left."

The former Newmarket-based trainer added: "I think the plan was to race him again out there at the spring carnival, although I don't even know which trainer he's gone to. If he recaptures his best form he would be competitive."

https://www.racingpost.com/news/eminent-out-of-retirement-and-heading-for-melbourne-after-leaving-meade-yard/362418

Owners will be owners and want to race their best horses at the most fashionable race meetings, but surely this fellow should be off to a nice little stud where he could cash in on being one of the first Frankels at stud ( would his heart problems make him unwanted as a sire? ) rather than being let prove how past his prime he can get?

tryfix

Just a quick shout out for the 5yo gelding Dream Castle who is going from strength to strength this year in Dubai. He won his first group race in a G3 at the start of the month and then a G2 on the 24th of the month. He's up to an rpr of 116 now which means that he could very well be the next Frankel to take a G1.

Down the field in both of Dream Castle's races was the new recruit to racing in Dubai the classy Deauville who has changed stables from Ballydoyle where his last run was a fine 3rd in the Irish Champion Stakes. Hope this fella doesn't get messed around too much in Dubai because it'd be a shame if his reputation was run into the ground out there.

tryfix

tryfix wrote: »

Just a quick shout out for the 5yo gelding Dream Castle who is going from strength to strength this year in Dubai. He won his first group race in a G3 at the start of the month and then a G2 on the 24th of the month. He's up to an rpr of 116 now which means that he could very well be the next Frankel to take a G1.

Down the field in both of Dream Castle's races was the new recruit to racing in Dubai the classy Deauville who has changed stables from Ballydoyle where his last run was a fine 3rd in the Irish Champion Stakes. Hope this fella doesn't get messed around too much in Dubai because it'd be a shame if his reputation was run into the ground out there.

Dream Castle goes into the Gp1 Jebel Hatta at Meydan today ( 3.30 ) as a worthy favourite and if he can deliver at Gp1 level he could deliver a significant boost to Frankel's reputation as a sire.

The most valid criticism of Frankel as a stallion is the charge that his stock have lacked in consistency and that they don't tend to progress significantly after having showing huge initial promise. To illustrate that point Dream Castle himself burst onto the racing scene with a maiden win on his debut only weeks before the 2,000 Guineas where he finished a very respectable 5th ( rpr 114 ) behind Churchill and 3 other future Gp1 winners. Since that initial maiden win on his debut he went 9 races and almost two years without a win. He was gelded around this time last year and given time off which has seen him win a Gp3 ( rpr 114 ) and Gp2 ( rpr 116 ) since his return to racing in January.

Hopefully we'll see today if this lad can turn out to be a proper Gp1 horse or whether it's another case of a flashy Frankel failing to deliver on his promise.

EDIT : Dream Castle won his Gp1 with some style...

tryfix

Frankel had a plethora of big race runners yesterday.

Frankely Awesome ran a fine 2nd in a high quality G1 Vinery Stakes and looks like a G1 winner in waiting for Frankel.

Call The Wind was a somewhat disappointing 3rd in the G2 Dubai Gold Cup ( considering how much his trainer had been pushing a line that he was up to stepping back to contest the top 12f races )

Dream Castle ran very poorly in the 9f G1 Dubai Turf and Without Parole ran a respectable 5th in the same race.

tryfix

Despite his knocking in a few winners it was a fairly predictability crap week for Frankel in the group races. His Syrtis who had split future Gp1 winners Line Of Duty and Wonderment in his previous race looked to be a horse who'll fail to fulfill that early promise after he was mown down by the Intello colt Slalom at the end of the Gp2 Prix Noalles today. Syrtis was slow to get into into a slow enough top gear and Slalom ate up the ground to surge 2 1\2L by the hapless Syrtis.

Eminent who is now in Australia and renamed He's Eminent was an abysmal failure in the Winx race on Saturday.


EDIT: Also Frankely Awesome ( who has shown more tenacity than most of the Frankels in placing twice in a row in Gp1 company ) apparently went backwards after being beaten by an extra 2 1\2L by Verry Eleegant on Saturday compared to their previous meeting.

Gavin "shels"

One of his NH horses cantered home midweek - can't remember the name but was impressive.

Edit: Solo Saxophone at Wetherby on Friday.

tryfix

Gavin shels wrote: »

One of his NH horses cantered home midweek - can't remember the name but was impressive.

Edit: Solo Saxophone at Wetherby on Friday.

The slower pace of NH racing should suit the Frankels, they are the types to notch a heap of wins on the gaff tracks.

tryfix

Despite being difficult beforehand, Cap Francais ran a fine staying on race in the Listed class Blue Riband Trial today at Epsom.

You'd think that such an unexposed horse would go on to much better things. I'd think that he's a typical Frankel, hard to assess, a bit highly strung and likely to be strongly punted on the next time he runs. If he runs in anyways half decent company next time I'll be gladly opposing him because he looks unreliable to my eyes.

Last week last year's 2,000 Guineas fourth Elarqam once again failed to live up to expectations as he slumped to a 5 3/4L 4th place finish in the Gp3 Brigadier Gerard stakes at Sandown. He ran on in the end leaving punters none the wiser as to whether he's gone at the game or just needs some reinventing.

tryfix

tryfix wrote: »

Despite his knocking in a few winners it was a fairly predictability crap week for Frankel in the group races. His Syrtis who had split future Gp1 winners Line Of Duty and Wonderment in his previous race looked to be a horse who'll fail to fulfill that early promise after he was mown down by the Intello colt Slalom at the end of the Gp2 Prix Noalles today. Syrtis was slow to get into into a slow enough top gear and Slalom ate up the ground to surge 2 1\2L by the hapless Syrtis.

Eminent who is now in Australia and renamed He's Eminent was an abysmal failure in the Winx race on Saturday.


EDIT: Also Frankely Awesome ( who has shown more tenacity than most of the Frankels in placing twice in a row in Gp1 company ) apparently went backwards after being beaten by an extra 2 1\2L by Verry Eleegant on Saturday compared to their previous meeting.

Apparently He's Eminent's awful run behind Winx can be put down to the use of ear muffs backfiring and now He's Eminent/Eminent is off to run in the QE II in Hong Kong which seems to be a very big ask.

“He ran an excellent second in the Ranvet Stakes at Rosehill on soft ground that didn't suit him, then we decided to try him in ear muffs to get him to relax against Winx at Randwick and it backfired. He ambled out of the stalls and was at the back of the field throughout, so we've had a ceremonial burning of the ear muffs."

https://www.racingpost.com/news/international/eminent-set-to-fly-the-flag-for-britain-in-qeii-rumble-at-sha-tin/377460

tryfix

tryfix wrote: »

Veracious gets her group win at Sandown and impresses the commentators in regards to her future chances of improving again. Through the 2nd this was very much a group 3 class race and the result shouldn't be bigged up.

To my eyes Veracious was showing some quirks with her pulling early on and not finding much in front. The interviewer tried to get Ryan Moore to big up her potential but Ryan wasn't interested in taking the offer. I've huge respect for Stoute's patient training tactics but I think she's one to take on in the future.

True to form the favourite Veracious lets backers down like a ton of bricks today.

Is Michael Stoute's record of improving horses from 3-4 more of a colt thing than a filly thing?

Itziger

Seemingly a fella called Galileo had the 1000 Guineas winner. Imagine if we had a thread on him.

tryfix

Itziger wrote: »

Seemingly a fella called Galileo had the 1000 Guineas winner. Imagine if we had a thread on him.

Ah that fella's stock don't need analysis they just get on with the job while the Frankels need a whole squad of psychiatrists to help them complete their tasks. :pac:

The Tetrarch

East by Frankel going in the Poule d'Essai des Pouliches at Parislongchamp on Sunday.
Surely Frankel offspring must win a proper classic soon.

Mgoraf

Am i right in saying he didn't have a runner in either of the first two classics?

Don't trust any of these Frankel yokes. Does he have anything fancied for the derby?

More prize money for frankel than galileo year to date. There's a whole world beyond tipperary lads.

Itziger

Deleted User wrote: »

More prize money for frankel than galileo year to date. There's a whole world beyond tipperary lads.

Newmarket's beyond Tipp as is Epsom.

Inion An Ri

Galileo is the current leading sire in both UK/Ire and Europe, with more than double the prize money of Frankel. Thanks to Dream Castle’s wins in Dubai, Frankel is $150K ahead of Galileo worldwide.

Itziger

Jaysus, lads, call me old-fashioned (and you'd be right) but are we really comparing 1,000 Guineas, 2,000 Guineas, Oaks, Derbies, St Legers, Lockinge, Eclipse, Arcs, King Georges and the list goes on to some of the Dubai stuff and a few more Group Races??

You'd be laughed out of court.

The Tetrarch

Mgoraf wrote: »

Am i right in saying he didn't have a runner in either of the first two classics?
Don't trust any of these Frankel yokes. Does he have anything fancied for the derby?

Five Derby entries by Frankel (108 Derby entries listed)
Casanova - form 4-2 (John Gosden)
Ginistrelli - form 41-5 (Ed Walker)
Invictus Spirit - unraced (Sir Michael Stoute)
Logician - unraced (John Gosden)
Old Glory - form 123- (A P O'Brien) ... 3rd in a Group 3 in 2018

Three Oaks entries by Frankel (60 Oaks entries listed)
Anapurna - form 9-1 (John Gosden)
Frankellina - form 1- (William Haggas)
King Power - form 5-2 (Andrew Balding)
The three of them are in the eight runner Oaks Trial at Lingfield tomorrow, Saturday, at 13:55, 1st, 3rd, 4th in the betting.

tryfix

This year he has had Mehdaayih for the Oaks and she was an impressive winner of the Cheshire oaks this week.

Cap Francais is 2nd fav for the Lingfield Derby Trial after his fast finishing 2nd in the Blue Ribbon Trial at Epsom. He has 2 Fillies in the French 1,000 Guineas and not too much else going on.




The probably continued meteoric rise of Kingman is a big threat to Frankel's crown as darling stallion of the UK media and Juddmonte won't be slow about diverting their better mares from Frankel to Kingman if the results are going to be better.

Andrew00

Kingman will have a better win rate with his progeny than the overrated Frankel. Sick of seeing all this "son of Frankel" rubbish anytime one of his offspring win something like a class2 handicap

jkbkhhho7t

Aww lads there is no comparison the English will latch on to anything, galileo is the king and will remain so till he joins the greats in the sky

tryfix

Andrew00 wrote: »

Kingman will have a better win rate with his progeny than the overrated Frankel. Sick of seeing all this "son of Frankel" rubbish anytime one of his offspring win something like a class2 handicap

Kingman probably will have a better wins to runs ratio than Frankel in time. At the moment Frankel is 24% wins to runs Vs 22% for Kingman but Kingman's stock look like they will improve with age while the Frankels struggle to improve with age.

In fairness to Frankel he is a winner producing machine with a 69% winners to runners ratio. Kingman is only on 44% winners to runners. A fairer comparison would be on 2yo winners to runners because it's a level playing field. On that score Frankel is still at a very very impressive 47% while Kingman is at a more normal 35%. Which kind of proves the point that the Frankels are early bloomers who don't have a huge amount of improving in them as they mature.

Itziger

Itziger wrote: »

Jaysus, lads, call me old-fashioned (and you'd be right) but are we really comparing 1,000 Guineas, 2,000 Guineas, Oaks, Derbies, St Legers, Lockinge, Eclipse, Arcs, King Georges and the list goes on to some of the Dubai stuff and a few more Group Races??

You'd be laughed out of court.

I'm as old fashioned as they come but racing is a global game nowadays. That's just a fact.

The 'frankel has flopped at stud' line is completely absurd at this stage, it is arguing in the face of every statistic out there.

tryfix

tryfix wrote: »

Kingman probably will have a better wins to runs ratio than Frankel in time. At the moment Frankel is 24% wins to runs Vs 22% for Kingman but Kingman's stock look like they will improve with age while the Frankels struggle to improve with age.

In fairness to Frankel he is a winner producing machine with a 69% winners to runners ratio. Kingman is only on 44% winners to runners. A fairer comparison would be on 2yo winners to runners because it's a level playing field. On that score Frankel is still at a very very impressive 47% while Kingman is at a more normal 35%. Which kind of proves the point that the Frankels are early bloomers who don't have a huge amount of improving in them as they mature.

I respect your opinion but not sure I can agree with this. Frankel has had zero flashy 2 year olds and plenty of improvers. All his g1 winners are 3+ I think? Even this year look at dream castle or master of reality winning the vintage crop with some very big names in behind (could be a one off)

Anyone can pick through progeny and find what they want to see. The facts are stakes winners and prize money. IMHO.

tryfix

Deleted User wrote: »

I respect your opinion but not sure I can agree with this. Frankel has had zero flashy 2 year olds and plenty of improvers. All his g1 winners are 3+ I think? Even this year look at dream castle or master of reality winning the vintage crop with some very big names in behind (could be a one off)

Anyone can pick through progeny and find what they want to see. The facts are stakes winners and prize money. IMHO.

I'd like to be able to agree with you, because for a start the Frankel input is only half the story as his progeny will have as much input from their various dams as they will from having Frankel as their sire. There's one small problem in that the Frankels in their many shapes and sizes tend to follow certain patterns. Frankel had no shortage of flashy 2yos in his first seasons at stud until trainers observed that his first crop 2yos weren't training on too well and they may have made then made the decision to not over try them as 2yos. His first crop had the flashy 2yo Fair Eva who won a gp3 at Royal Ascot, Cunco his very first 2yo winner was multiple listed placed As a 2yo, Queen Kindly won a Gp2 2yo race, Frankuus won at listed and Gp3 as a 2yo. None of them developed into Gp1 placed horses.

G3 winning 2yo Elarqam made it as far as 4th in the Guineas, the O'Brien pair of 2yo Gp winners Nelson and Rostropovich showed how bringing them along slowly would allow them to retain their form from season to season but they ended up reaching their highest ratings when used for the ignoble task of pacemaking.

As regards stakes winners and prize money, I'd suggest you look at Australian racing where there are a silly amount of big money G1 and G2 races which are often won by OR 108 to OR 113 type horses who wouldn't have the opportunity to win those kinds of races or prize money in Europe. Proper Ratings are the mark of a horses ability.


I used the term early bloomers rather than precocious to try to indicate that in general his stock are close to their peaks within the first half dozen races of their careers as they move from their maiden wins to group company.

For example you quote the 5 year old G1 winner Dream Castle as an example of how the Frankels can improve with age. I myself was quite taken with what Dream Castle was doing at the start of this year out in Meydan, but then he came badly unstuck when he ran against a hardened G1 field on World Cup Night.

Dream Castle has actually improved very little from the May of his 3yo career. On only his third ever run he ran to RPR 114, OR 113 when 5th in 2,000 Guineas at Newmarket. He failed to progress from that run until he was Gelded at the end of his first season in Dubai, it was this operation that allows horses to concentrate on their racing that allowed him to improve through 3 races in the Spring in Meydan. He improved by 4Lbs OR and just 2Lbs RPR due to being gelded, that's a standard response to being gelded rather than being an age related improvement of form from racing experience. He has apparently failed to improve on his initial G1 win.
Similarly Master Of Reality's surprise G3 win at the Curragh was down to it being his first run since he was gelded and Capri simply ran way below his previous form in that race. The form equals a neck beating of a 6yo 110 rated horse who was giving him a pound, a long way from what could be expected of Capri.

Of all Frankels Gp1 winners only the mighty Cracksman has shown proper improvement from repeatedly racing in Gp1 company and his biggest improvement was brought on by finally running on the Soft Ground that he needed to produce his best. He also never improved his rating from his initial G1 win as a 3yo.

Without Parole hit OR 119, RPR 120 on his 4th ever run. He has seemingly declined in his 4 runs since to RPR 109 despite being trained by a master trainer with a good handle on the Frankels. He has failed so far to improve on his G1 win.

Soul Stirring hit her peak RPR 112 as a G1 winning 2yo and repeated that RPR twice in her next 3 runs as a 3yo one of which was a G1 win over a stepped up to 12f. She failed to improve on her first G1 win.

Call The Wind won his G1 after being stepped up to 2m4f at the end of his first season. He appears to not have run prior to his 4th year and was Gelded before his first run. He apparently improved 2LB on RPR ratings from his 114 G1 win in France to 116 for his 3rd over 2m in Meydan.


There's a theme there that says the Frankels tend to flatten out once they've reached G1 company and it's instructive that many of his stock seem to need gelding to keep/get them interested in the game.


Another one of his stock that hit a good height of form is Monarchs Glen who couldn't win a pattern race until he was Gelded and went on to to achieve a G1 level 121 in Listed company but he bombed out in two runs in G1 company after that. These Frankels often seem to lose their form in true G1 company.

The need to geld so many of his better stock points to temperament problems or more correctly I think they start to think about the game after a short enough time racing.

The Tetrarch

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm as old fashioned as they come but racing is a global game nowadays. That's just a fact.

The 'frankel has flopped at stud' line is completely absurd at this stage, it is arguing in the face of every statistic out there.

If you are saying Frankel is a success on "every statistic out there" then put up those statistics, and do not be selective.
At the moment he is in 13th position in General Sires 2019 Great Britain on the Arion Pedigrees website.
Galileo is 1st, Invincible Spirit 2nd, Dark Angel 3rd.

tryfix

Yum yum, another wide margin Oaks Trial winner for Frankel and Gosden with Anapurna. A win in the Oaks would fill a big hole in Frankel's CV by providing him with a proper middle distance 3yo filly.

Cap Francais predictably failing to find the improvement that his Epsom 2nd promised.

The Tetrarch

The Tetrarch wrote: »

If you are saying Frankel is a success on "every statistic out there" then put up those statistics, and do not be selective.
At the moment he is in 13th position in General Sires 2019 Great Britain on the Arion Pedigrees website.
Galileo is 1st, Invincible Spirit 2nd, Dark Angel 3rd.

Why would you restrict it to UK prize money? That's what I call being selective.

World wide stats for EU sires here, use any stats you like to tell me he's not a success: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=0&sbYear=2019&srt=100&nao=2&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why would you restrict it to UK prize money? That's what I call being selective.

World wide stats for EU sires here, use any stats you like to tell me he's not a success: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=0&sbYear=2019&srt=100&nao=2&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot

BTW if you look at the same list for last year he's third behind you know who and you know who as well.

From three crops, and with a higher earnings per starter number than any sire in Europe (including you know who)

tryfix

Deleted User wrote: »

BTW if you look at the same list for last year he's third behind you know who and you know who as well.

From three crops, and with a higher earnings per starter number than any sire in Europe (including you know who)

He's definitely a very successful sire, the stats don't lie with a huge amount of black type horses and any amount of 100+ RPR performers. For all his success there's still plenty to be wary of with his runners and questions re his record as a Classic sire that a few Classic wins would put to bed.

The Tetrarch

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would you restrict it to UK prize money? That's what I call being selective.

World wide stats for EU sires here, use any stats you like to tell me he's not a success: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=0&sbYear=2019&srt=100&nao=2&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot

I asked you to back your claim that Frankel is a success.
You pointed me to a General Sire Year To Date 2019 Worldwide money list.
It show Frankel in 6th place in the money list for 2019, with his top earner shown as Senator (2014) (GB).

It took me a while to trace Senator as he is not easily found.
He was exported to Hong Kong in 2017 and renamed Simply Brilliant.

He had two UK wins, at Leicester and Carlisle, and has had six wins in Hong Kong since.
He has earnings of GBP 1,008,663 (converted) and has an RPR 113.
In Great Britain his earnings were GBP 4,528 + 3,234 + 466 +1,404 = GBP 9,632.
Another way of stating that is just over 99% of his earnings are in Hong Kong.
His most recent earnings were GBP 207,207 for 3rd place in the Group 1 Hong Kong Mile.

This is similar to the record Frankel's Japan Oaks Group 1 winner Soul Stirring.
She won GBP 868,131 for that Oaks, and has GBP 1,487,526 lifetime earnings. The Oaks win was her third lifetime win from four starts.
Since then she has run seven times for one 3rd place.

Money won in countries where the prizemoney is multiples of that earned in Europe is one measure of success.

What I prefer as a measure of sire ability is Group race wins, and preferably Group 1 and Classic wins.
I think Frankel progeny have difficulty getting beyond Group 3 level, with the exception of Cracksman, whose dam line is similar to the multiple Group 1 winner Golden Horn.

Perhaps Frankel can shine in the three remaining English classic races, the Oaks, Derby, St Leger.
As pointed out above he was not represented in the first two classics.
He has a runner in a French classic tomorrow.

Inion An Ri

He won’t be having a runner in the Derby. His 5 remaining entries have either not run at all (x2), not run this year, haven’t won a race yet, or were well beaten last time out in a novice race. No obvious St Leger candidate yet.

Whatever about his colts, his fillies in particular seem to find it difficult to maintain their form. And I can’t think of a single filly that kept progressing. But there may be a first, of course. ��

The Tetrarch

Frankel has two runners, Suphala and East, in the Poule d'Essai des Pouliches, at 15:30 tomorrow, ParisLongchamp, 10 runners.
My pick is Watch Me.
The ground is heavy, and Longchamp heavy can be heavy heavy.

The Tetrarch

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I asked you to back your claim that Frankel is a success.
You pointed me to a General Sire Year To Date 2019 Worldwide money list.
It show Frankel in 6th place in the money list for 2019, with his top earner shown as Senator (2014) (GB).

It took me a while to trace Senator as he is not easily found.
He was exported to Hong Kong in 2017 and renamed Simply Brilliant.

He had two UK wins, at Leicester and Carlisle, and has had six wins in Hong Kong since.
He has earnings of GBP 1,008,663 (converted) and has an RPR 113.
In Great Britain his earnings were GBP 4,528 + 3,234 + 466 +1,404 = GBP 9,632.
Another way of stating that is just over 99% of his earnings are in Hong Kong.
His most recent earnings were GBP 207,207 for 3rd place in the Group 1 Hong Kong Mile.

This is similar to the record Frankel's Japan Oaks Group 1 winner Soul Stirring.
She won GBP 868,131 for that Oaks, and has GBP 1,487,526 lifetime earnings. The Oaks win was her third lifetime win from four starts.
Since then she has run seven times for one 3rd place.

Money won in countries where the prizemoney is multiples of that earned in Europe is one measure of success.

What I prefer as a measure of sire ability is Group race wins, and preferably Group 1 and Classic wins.
I think Frankel progeny have difficulty getting beyond Group 3 level, with the exception of Cracksman, whose dam line is similar to the multiple Group 1 winner Golden Horn.

Perhaps Frankel can shine in the three remaining English classic races, the Oaks, Derby, St Leger.
As pointed out above he was not represented in the first two classics.
He has a runner in a French classic tomorrow.

"do not be selective" - your words

Hong Kong group ones don't count. Japanese group ones don't count - also your words.

Make your mind up

The Mig

Overhyped. Suitable NH stallion is Franko

The Tetrarch

Deleted User wrote: »

"do not be selective" - your words
Hong Kong group ones don't count. Japanese group ones don't count - also your words.
Make your mind up

Your comments suggest the link you gave indicate Frankel is a top stallion.
That schedule you linked is for stallions "Stands EU only" and it shows their "Worldwide" earnings.
Because Frankel has a few horses running in Japan and Hong Kong his worldwide earnings are much larger than other stallions standing in the EU.

General Sires Japan 2019 - Frankel is ranked 108th in 2019 with Yen 57,664,000 equivalent to Euro 466,855
General Sires Hong Kong 2019 - Frankel is ranked 31st with HKD 9,299,650 equivalent to Euro 1,054,685
For the record Frankel is ranked 13th in 2019 in Great Britain with GBP 286,722 (equivalent to Euro 331,741)

Anyone can see that adding Euro 466,855 (Japan) and Euro 1,054,685 (HK) to his GB earnings of Euro 331,741 makes it appear Frankel is a great sire.
But he ranks 108th, 31st and 13th in those countries.

These "Worldwide" earnings, from 108th and 31st places of Euro 1,521,540 are useful to boost a stallion.
I would also question the standing of Helmet in 2nd place in that "Sires standing in EU, Worldwide earnings" table.
It depend almost entirely on Thunder Snow's nose victory in the Dubai World Cup for GBP 5,669,291.
I wanted to use Helmet for my mare in 2019, but he was sold from the UK to Germany, presumably because he was not in demand.
The same comments stand for most of the EU Based sires in that Worldwide earnings list.
Teofilo is in 5th place on that list with his big earner a horse named Exultant, who has earnings of GBP 185k, 570k, 528k = GBP 1,283,000 from two wins and a 2nd in guess where - Hong Kong.
A much better measure is the sire's standing in each country sire table.

I have not "made my mind up" but I am making my mind up, and Frankel needs to produce more to convince me.
Perhaps this afternoon in France he can win his first European classic with two of the ten runners in the Pouliches.

Itziger

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Frankel has two runners, Suphala and East, in the Poule d'Essai des Pouliches, at 15:30 tomorrow, ParisLongchamp, 10 runners.
My pick is Watch Me.
The ground is heavy, and Longchamp heavy can be heavy heavy.

Castle Lady wins on what didn't look or sound like heavy ground.

The Tetrarch

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Your comments suggest the link you gave indicate Frankel is a top stallion.
That schedule you linked is for stallions "Stands EU only" and it shows their "Worldwide" earnings.
Because Frankel has a few horses running in Japan and Hong Kong his worldwide earnings are much larger than other stallions standing in the EU.

General Sires Japan 2019 - Frankel is ranked 108th in 2019 with Yen 57,664,000 equivalent to Euro 466,855
General Sires Hong Kong 2019 - Frankel is ranked 31st with HKD 9,299,650 equivalent to Euro 1,054,685
For the record Frankel is ranked 13th in 2019 in Great Britain with GBP 286,722 (equivalent to Euro 331,741)

Anyone can see that adding Euro 466,855 (Japan) and Euro 1,054,685 (HK) to his GB earnings of Euro 331,741 makes it appear Frankel is a great sire.
But he ranks 108th, 31st and 13th in those countries.

These "Worldwide" earnings, from 108th and 31st places of Euro 1,521,540 are useful to boost a stallion.
I would also question the standing of Helmet in 2nd place in that "Sires standing in EU, Worldwide earnings" table.
It depend almost entirely on Thunder Snow's nose victory in the Dubai World Cup for GBP 5,669,291.
I wanted to use Helmet for my mare in 2019, but he was sold from the UK to Germany, presumably because he was not in demand.
The same comments stand for most of the EU Based sires in that Worldwide earnings list.
Teofilo is in 5th place on that list with his big earner a horse named Exultant, who has earnings of GBP 185k, 570k, 528k = GBP 1,283,000 from two wins and a 2nd in guess where - Hong Kong.
A much better measure is the sire's standing in each country sire table.

I have not "made my mind up" but I am making my mind up, and Frankel needs to produce more to convince me.
Perhaps this afternoon in France he can win his first European classic with two of the ten runners in the Pouliches.

No joy today although a decent run from East.

Using your own logic let's restrict to gb last full season (surely far fairer than using this year which in the UK amounts to not much more than a month of racing). Frankel third again (from three crops!) behind the usual suspects.

Frankels won the St James Palace and champion stakes Two of the biggest races of the year in anyone's book.

Even in terms of domestic classics he's had two crops contest them, two narrow 2nds in the Irish Derby, 3rd and 4th at Epsom, some decent if not amazing guineas runs. His classics performance is grand.

Nobody is saying he's the world's greatest but its just not arguable that he's failing.

tryfix

Itziger wrote: »

Castle Lady wins on what didn't look or sound like heavy ground.

The race was slow by ( won in 1m 40.91s (slow by 3.51s) which is a long way from being soft, while Persian King won the colts race in 1m 38.98s (slow by 1.58s) . That looks like good ground tending to good to soft on times anyway, even though the Racing Post says Heavy. The winner Castle Lady won her trial over the same course and distance on good ground in 1m 38.39s (slow by 0.99s) so there's a bit of juice in the ground today.


East ran okay considering that she's just an OR 107 animal.

tryfix

Frankel has been having a good spell recently, he had 3 winners yesterday including 2 Listed winners at 10f ( Elarqam getting back on track ) and 12f and a 14f handicap winner and his Mekong put in a very solid 2nd to Dee Ex Bee at Sandown. Add to that his 3? solid contenders for the Oaks including having the current favourite for it and things could be looking very rosy for him this year.

Unfortunately, the Frankels couldn't keep the show on the road this weekend when he had plenty of reasonably fancied runners in some big group races.

East his well fancied "unlucky" French Guineas 3rd came last in the Irish 1,000 Guineas, while over in France the Andre Farbe trained Fount fell off the pace back to be a well beaten 6th in the Gp1 Prix Saint Alary, early season G1 winner in Dubai Dream Castle ran a respectable 4th in what didn't look like a very strong G1 Prix D'Ispahan and lastly Call The Wind a G1 winning stayer last year was all the rage for the G2 Prix Vicomtesse Viger over 1m7f but he was outpaced and eventually rallied to finish 3rd.

A mixed bag, I'd certainly be willing to take on the Frankels in this year's Oaks.

tryfix

AT LONG LAST Frankel gets his first domestic classic winner with the John Gosden trained Anapurna. It's probably no coincidence that it's Gosden who trains her as he has shown an affinity with Frankel's stock and has now trained all 3 of Frankel's UK G1 winners. Also it's notable that all three of his Frankel stars were barely scratched at as 2yos.

WicklowBrave

tryfix wrote: »

AT LONG LAST Frankel gets his first domestic classic winner with the John Gosden trained Anapurna. It's probably no coincidence that it's Gosden who trains her as he has shown an affinity with Frankel's stock and has now trained all 3 of Frankel's UK G1 winners. Also it's notable that all three of his Frankel stars were barely scratched at as 2yos.

Yeah very much 3yo+ middle distance horses he’s producing. Frankel will turn out to be a decent stallion alright but he’s not the next Galileo.

tryfix

After yesterday it's now 8 individual group 1 winners for Frankel and this is his 3rd crop of 3yos to race. Let's say that he gets another individual G1 winner by the end of the season ( he has a runner in the Grand Prix De Paris tomorrow's ). That would be 3 G1 winners per crop.

That's very good, given that with good health he should produce 20+ crops or so he's on target to hit 60 individual G1 winners in his career. The truly mighty Sadlers Wells only hit 74 individual winners, his son Galileo will probably breach the 100 mark if his covering health holds out for another few years. Frankel is basically matching Sea The Stars at the rate that he is supplying G1 winners.

Yet there's still something quirky about Frankel's stock. On the other hand trainers seem to be getting a better handle on his stock and giving them a bit of time seems to do much to overcome the flashy but flawed image that hung over his first few crops. Also trainers seem to better able to keep the Frankels running to form now than were with his initial crops. He could up that G1 strike rate.