Feminism at odds with the trans movement

A small but noisy group of feminists is at odd with everything. Then again, the small but noisy groups of anything are usually against everything that is outside of their small but noisy groups.

speedboatchase

A right-wing journalist called Milo Yiannopoulous wrote about this a few months ago, predicting what he sees as culture wars that will take place on the Left over the next decade. Here are a few: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/23/minority-wars-why-the-next-ten-years-will-set-everyone-against-everyone/

TRANSSEXUALS V. CISGENDER FEMINISTS
Otherwise known as the “battle of the lived experiences,” or “who suffered more to be a woman.” These groups will never see eye-to-eye because neither is capable of looking beyond what affects them personally. Cisgender feminists will remain adamant that rape culture and unconscious gender bias are the most crucial issues facing women today, while trans activists (who, let’s be honest, have probably faced far fewer unwanted advances) will maintain that being allowed into the women’s restroom is the civil rights issue of the age.

TRANSSEXUALS V. DRAG QUEENS
Drag performers have a rich history of taking personal tragedy and social oppression and turning them into a glorious pantomime, weaving gold from their struggles and often challenging preconceptions of gender. To some, however, this is seen as transphobic, a mockery of the oppression faced by transgender individuals who can’t “take off” their identity after the curtain comes down.

This has led to the banning of drag queens from performing at Scottish Pride events, to make them a “safe space.” What’s next? A trans man taking umbrage next time they see a woman wearing a trouser suit?

In the future, perhaps women will be prohibited from wearing so-called boyfriend blazers, sweaters or jeans, and society will comply with strictly gendered clothing rules in order to protect trans people from distress, in turn robbing us of our current increasingly liberal attitude towards the fluidity of gender.

desertcircus

thee glitz wrote: »

It's not just feminists who think that.

Sadly correct; a whole swathe of different types of arseholes refuse to accept trans women as women. This thread is specifically about feminism and trans rights, though, so we can thankfully disregard all the other arseholes for the moment.

Ken.

.45auto is thread banned. Do not post in this thread again.

Folks, we have had many threads on similar topics in recent times. The same rules apply to this one, anyone being a dick or deliberately trying to label a group of people in a hateful manner will be banned.

Thread reopened.

Huntergonzo

Isn't feminism really just a socially acceptable form of sexism? If these people were really interested in equality then why promote a single gender? Why not call yourselves humanists (or something to that effect) and promote equality across the board?

As for the trans community, I don't understand it but I don't have a problem with it once there's no deceit involved, each to their own.

smash

John is a transsexual who wants to be known as Mandy. She's friends with Dave who is gay and Susan who's a lesbian. They work with each other to fight for equal rights.

Sarah is a feminist. She sometimes likes to paint pictures using her own menstrual blood and often shouts at men who open the door for her because she "can do that for her self".

Sarah doesn't like Mandy, because Mandy use to suppress her, even though Mandy doesn't know how. There's a shitstorm coming!

Smash is a straight white male, obviously he's a privileged bastard so he has no say in this thread.

Annasopra

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Isn't feminism really just a socially acceptable form of sexism?

No. Not at all. Fighting for womens rights does not mean you are automatically a mysandrist.

discus

speedboatchase wrote: »

A right-wing journalist called Milo Yiannopoulous wrote about this a few months ago, predicting what he sees as culture wars that will take place on the Left over the next decade. Here are a few: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/23/minority-wars-why-the-next-ten-years-will-set-everyone-against-everyone/

The man is a genius with how he delivers discussion from the data out there.

Isaiah

As a general rule I don't listen to people who push an 'ism' of any kind.

We are all people, we are all equal.

I despise identity politics. These people create division, they do nothing to further mankind or equality.

Annasopra

smash wrote: »

John is a transsexual who wants to be known as Mandy. She's friends with Dave who is gay and Susan who's a lesbian. They work with each other to fight for equal rights.

Sarah is a feminist. She sometimes likes to paint pictures using her own menstrual blood and often shouts at men who open the door for her because she "can do that for her self".

Sarah doesn't like Mandy, because Mandy use to suppress her, even though Mandy doesn't know how. There's a shitstorm coming!

Smash is a straight white male, obviously he's a privileged bastard so he has no say in this thread.

AAAwww poor poor smash

Saipanne

Feminism used to stand for a movement that promoted the ideal of strong, independent women. I supported this, and still do.

Nowadays, I literally have no idea what this ideology stands for, aside from it's clear hatred for men.

So this Newsnight report is not surprising. It seems no matter what, the vilification of men is paramount.

e_e

Saipanne wrote: »

Nowadays, I literally have no idea what this ideology stands for, aside from it's clear hatred for men.

Here we go...

strelok

e_e wrote: »

Here we go...

here we go indeed, another cis man thinking he can mansplain feminism to a woman

smash

strelok wrote: »

here we go indeed, another cis man thinking he can mansplain feminism to a woman

Yawn

alchemist33

Radicals, cis, trans...

I thought I'd left organic chemistry behind me twenty years ago... :mad::mad:

e_e

strelok wrote: »

here we go indeed, another cis man thinking he can mansplain feminism to a woman

Good to know that you too can play the identity politics card whenever it suits you.

seamus

I am a privileged person.

Privileged that I never have to deal with any of this bullsh*t either online or in person.

Feminism has no clear definition nor leadership. It is not one distinct movement with a clear focus and agenda. Thousands of individual groups claim the tag for themselves even though many of them may be harshly at odds with one another.

Saipanne

e_e wrote: »

Here we go...

#menstears

Seriously though, that's what I see. For example, take the Nye attacks across Europe. All reports were of Arabic/North African men, but the feminist slant appears to be "this is a matter of gender, not race or religion".

So quick to tar *every* man with these attacks. So unwilling to perhaps shine a light on an ethnic minority, even when it's the plain truth. It was men. That is all that matters.

When I see feminist articles or interviews, the hatred of men is palatable. It's a shame, because I agree with the core beliefs, but I cannot get on board with it.

steddyeddy

alchemist33 wrote: »

Radicals, cis, trans...

I thought I'd left organic chemistry behind me twenty years ago... :mad::mad:

Not with a name like alchemist you didn't. I also think people are referring to a hydroxyl group when they say my OH.

Huntergonzo

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. Not at all. Fighting for womens rights does not mean you are automatically a mysandrist.

This is true and if channelled in the correct direction, ie fight for their rights to an abortion and against things which are intrinsically sexist such as religion etc then I think they are quite relevant but I still it's better to fight for human rights in general rather than 'what favours my gender'.

Also sadly feminists do tend to come across as very male hating these days, something in the mold of Andrea Dworkin and it doesn't win many supporters.

Saipanne

strelok wrote: »

here we go indeed, another cis man thinking he can mansplain feminism to a woman

This is Newspeak.

strelok

Saipanne wrote: »

This is Newspeak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

Saipanne

strelok wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

I believe smilies are the cure for this.

e_e

Saipanne wrote: »

When I see feminist articles or interviews, the hatred of men is palatable. It's a shame, because I agree with the core beliefs, but I cannot get on board with it.

Have to say I don't see this at all, even with the NYE attacks. If anything I see a lot of confirmation bias and persecution complex where some are fishing for instances to scream "misandry!".

I got so tired of all this petty back and forth between feminists and anti-feminists so I decided to actually listen to the ideas from both sides. Guess what? I have not once remotely felt under attack for being a male.

steddyeddy

e_e wrote: »

Have to say I don't see this at all, even with the NYE attacks. If anything I see a lot of confirmation bias and persecution complex where some are fishing for instances to scream "misandry!".

I got so tired of all this petty back and forth between feminists and anti-feminists so I decided to actually listen to the ideas from both sides. Guess what? I have not once remotely felt under attack for being a male.

I think it's deeper than man hating. Some feminists like the one in the video seem to think women should be protected from men. I don't agree with that at all. Some of the strongest people I've known have been women.

e_e

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think it's deeper than man hating. Some feminists like the one in the video seem to think women should be protected from men. I don't agree with that at all. Some of the strongest people I've known have been women.

Well yeah that is nonsense. I'm all for intersectionality and co-operation instead of this "us versus them!" stuff.

Saipanne

e_e wrote: »

Have to say I don't see this at all, even with the NYE attacks. If anything I see a lot of confirmation bias and persecution complex where some are fishing for instances to scream "misandry!".

I got so tired of all this petty back and forth between feminists and anti-feminists so I decided to actually listen to the ideas from both sides. Guess what? I have not once remotely felt under attack for being a male.

Ok, I saw a campaign from feminist circles that called for a "listen and believe" approach to allegations of rape or sexual assault*. They also stated that the onus should not be on the victim to prove that the attack occurred.

Ergo, when a man is accused of rape he is automatically assumed to be guilty, and the onus is on him to prove himself innocent.

This is how highly they regard the rights of men.




*Ironic, considering they are not listening to what the NYE victims are saying.

c_man

Feminism at odds with the trans movement

As I'm neither trans nor a feminist, I say lock 'em all in a room and thereby facilitate a compromise between the two groups ala American high-school sitcoms back in the day.


I used to work with a particularly... vocal feminist. She really had it in for the trans folk (well the men becoming women). I could see her points to an extent but tbh I just don't care.

e_e wrote: »

I have absolutely zero time for the TERF (Trans Exclusionary Radicals) side of it all.

I first saw that acronym in an ad for a room when househunting a few months back. I just assumed it was something to do with benefits :pac:

ancapailldorcha

e_e wrote: »

Well yeah that is nonsense. I'm all for intersectionality and co-operation instead of this "us versus them!" stuff.

In my experience, few people have an interest in this. It's all about "how my special group is oppressed" as opposed to how can we ensure that everyone has the same rights, responsibilities and opportunities.

e_e

Saipanne wrote: »

Ok, I saw a campaign from feminist circles that called for a "listen and believe" approach to allegations of rape or sexual assault*. They also stated that the onus should not be on the victim to prove that the attack occurred.

Ergo, when a man is accused of rape he is automatically assumed to be guilty, and the onus is on him to prove himself innocent.

This is how highly they regard the rights of men.




*Ironic, considering they are not listening to what the NYE victims are saying.

You see it's a wide enough movement that you can easily align with feminism and brush that off as idiotic and counter-productive.

That said though I might have to look into that thing, not just listen to some YouTuber on a webcam ranting about it. :P

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In my experience, few people have an interest in this. It's all about "how my special group is oppressed" as opposed to how can we ensure that everyone has the same rights, responsibilities and opportunities.

I do think the insular and navel-gazing (can you say Tumblr?) aspect of it isn't great, yeah. I think TERFs fit into that category actually, they can't just look outside of their own bubble for one second to realize that others' life experiences are different.