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Feminism at odds with the trans movement

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    #62
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    e_e wrote: »
    You see it's a wide enough movement that you can easily align with feminism and brush that off as idiotic and counter-productive.

    That said though I might have to look into that thing, not just listen to some YouTuber on a webcam ranting about it. :P

    I'll give you names. Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn. These are leaders in this movement.


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    #63
    e_e
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Saipanne wrote: »
    I'll give you names. Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn. These are leaders in this movement.
    Who are both completely benign figures.


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    #64
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    e_e wrote: »
    Who are both completely benign figures.

    They seem like lovely people, but some of their ideas are nutty and some of them could be harmful, if left unchallenged.


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    #65
    e_e
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Saipanne wrote: »
    They seem like lovely people, but some of their ideas are nutty and some of them could be harmful, if left unchallenged.
    Their ideas are challenged constantly though. Have you seen the barrage of criticism femfreq gets whenever they post anything on twitter or if you just type her name into YouTube. :D

    I actually think there's a good bit to criticize in Anita's videos though, but a lot of what her opponents do is straw-manning.


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    #66
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    e_e wrote: »
    Their ideas are challenged constantly though. Have you seen the barrage of criticism femfreq gets whenever they post anything on twitter or if you just type her name into YouTube. :D

    I actually think there's a good bit to criticize in Anita's videos though, but a lot of what her opponents do is straw-manning.


    But, when her ideas are challenged she (Anita) plays the victim, saying that she is the victim of abuse. She, and her followers use this in an attempt to silence critics.

    This is all consistent with pretty much any ideology, by the way. They are all the same. Feminism just happens to be the most visible one, right now.


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    #67
    Maguined
    Registered Users Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    e_e wrote: »
    Their ideas are challenged constantly though. Have you seen the barrage of criticism femfreq gets whenever they post anything on twitter or if you just type her name into YouTube. :D

    I actually think there's a good bit to criticize in Anita's videos though, but a lot of what her opponents do is straw-manning.

    There is nothing wrong with crticism. That is a good thing. There is everything wrong with harassment though which the majority of people who criticise her do not support at all.

    I think anyone who is anti-choice feminism such as Sarkessian should be criticised.


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    #68
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,922 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I'm starting to lose track of these groups and what they stand for.


    You're not the only one eddy, I gave up on the whole identity politics nonsense in the last couple of years when it became a race to the bottom of the victimhood barrel for all the various special interest groups and I felt like I was being told what to think, and anything contradictory to certain narratives was to be suppressed. I couldn't take special interest groups seriously at the point where they began to blur the lines between reality and ideology.

    I think these groups should go back to being about equality and not whatever they're up to now. In case people think this is a feminism hating thread I'm a supporter of equality as people might notice by now. I just don't believe blaming other demographics is the way forward.


    Special interest groups were never about equality, they've only ever been about themselves. I don't think there even is a consensus any more among <special interest group of choice>, they're all so far up their own rear ends that they will never achieve anything, because they never take responsibility for anything, and they've introduced language now that they think enables them to shut down any criticism of their ideology.

    Everyone else is to blame of course for "oppressing" them. Disagreeing with someone is not oppression, it's simply disagreeing with them because I don't share their point of view.


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    #69
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    In my experience, few people have an interest in this. It's all about "how my special group is oppressed" as opposed to how can we ensure that everyone has the same rights, responsibilities and opportunities.

    I don't think treating individuals equally is even the goal any more.


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    #70
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,824 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Saipanne wrote: »
    But, when her ideas are challenged she (Anita) plays the victim, saying that she is the victim of abuse. She, and her followers use this in an attempt to silence critics.

    This is all consistent with pretty much any ideology, by the way. They are all the same. Feminism just happens to be the most visible one, right now.

    Taking Anita's last tweet as an example, saying they'll be posting a review of a game this Monday, here are some of the replies it has gotten:
    "YOUR 15 MINUTES OF FAME IS GONE BABY #DealWithIt NOT EVEN #GamerGate cares about your channel anymore. "
    " .. Yeah?? ..... I'm not looking forward to watch a lier"
    "Nah, you keep it luv. It'll be utter bull**** if you're endorsing it dear."
    "the only cancer is feminism"
    "You always complain the women are not treated fairly yet you represent everything wrong with not only women but the whole world."

    Oh what insightful and thoughtful challenging of ideas... Yes, these people really are just interested in debating the topics at hand and not just throwing abuse at her for the sake of throwing abuse at her.

    Honestly, take a look at any of her completely normal tweets and see the abuse. It's so very, very easy to find.


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    #71
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Penn wrote: »
    Taking Anita's last tweet as an example, saying they'll be posting a review of a game this Monday, here are some of the replies it has gotten:
    "YOUR 15 MINUTES OF FAME IS GONE BABY #DealWithIt NOT EVEN #GamerGate cares about your channel anymore. "
    " .. Yeah?? ..... I'm not looking forward to watch a lier"
    "Nah, you keep it luv. It'll be utter bull**** if you're endorsing it dear."
    "the only cancer is feminism"
    "You always complain the women are not treated fairly yet you represent everything wrong with not only women but the whole world."

    Oh what insightful and thoughtful challenging of ideas... Yes, these people really are just interested in debating the topics at hand and not just throwing abuse at her for the sake of throwing abuse at her.

    Honestly, take a look at any of her completely normal tweets and see the abuse. It's so very, very easy to find.

    What would you say the ratio of normal critics to trolls is?

    At a guess.


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    #72
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Saipanne wrote: »
    But, when her ideas are challenged she (Anita) plays the victim, saying that she is the victim of abuse. She, and her followers use this in an attempt to silence critics.

    This is all consistent with pretty much any ideology, by the way. They are all the same. Feminism just happens to be the most visible one, right now.

    She says she's the victim of online abuse because she regularly received death threats and rape threats, not because people disagree with her arguments. This isn't some poor sheltered feminist running away when someone presents a counterargument; it's a woman who was sent drawings of herself being raped by video game characters and who's had to cancel speaking engagements because of death threats. Talking about Sarkeesian without putting that context front and centre is incredibly disingenuous and borders on outright dishonesty.


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    #73
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    desertcircus wrote: »
    She says she's the victim of online abuse because she regularly received death threats and rape threats, not because people disagree with her arguments. This isn't some poor sheltered feminist running away when someone presents a counterargument; it's a woman who was sent drawings of herself being raped by video game characters and who's had to cancel speaking engagements because of death threats. Talking about Sarkeesian without putting that context front and centre is incredibly disingenuous and borders on outright dishonesty.

    Cheers.


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    #74
    stoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Can some one explain the terms CIS and TERF to me please?


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    #75
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    stoneill wrote: »
    Can some one explain the terms CIS and TERF to me please?

    It's about assigning labels so that either shame or pity may be appropriately distributed.


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    #76
    StewartGriffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    After reading recently that many feminists regarded a male pornstar James Deen who specialises in female humiliation and rape scenes as a feminist, I have to admit I don't know what's going on any more.


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    #77
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,824 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Saipanne wrote: »
    What would you say the ratio of normal critics to trolls is?

    At a guess.

    About half and half I'd say. Though even if it was 10 normal : 1 abusive, doesn't make my point any different though. She does receive a lot of abuse/trolling, wouldn't you agree?


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    #78
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Saipanne wrote: »
    What would you say the ratio of normal critics to trolls is?

    At a guess.

    Well, I just had a look myself. The vast majority of the tweets on her page were fine. Some were critical. The worst thing I saw was somebody labelling her review as "moronic".

    I follow public figures on social media who get an avalanche of abuse. It's the internet. It's not right, but I don't see why that should make you above criticism.


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    #79
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,443 ✭✭✭tritium


    desertcircus wrote: »
    She says she's the victim of online abuse because she regularly received death threats and rape threats, not because people disagree with her arguments. This isn't some poor sheltered feminist running away when someone presents a counterargument; it's a woman who was sent drawings of herself being raped by video game characters and who's had to cancel speaking engagements because of death threats. Talking about Sarkeesian without putting that context front and centre is incredibly disingenuous and borders on outright dishonesty.

    A little off topic but: is it any less dishonest to imply that Sarkesian and Quinn have only been benign in their own actions? Not to imply two wrongs make a right but that side of the gamergate fence has also been pretty adept at doxing and hoax threats....


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    #80
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Penn wrote: »
    About half and half I'd say. Though even if it was 10 normal : 1 abusive, doesn't make my point any different though. She does receive a lot of abuse/trolling, wouldn't you agree?

    No, I had a look and didn't see a whole lot. Maybe emails are worse. But being a public figure means that angry internet folks will say nasty things. If the internet wasn't so anonymous, maybe that would stop. But why should that mean she is above criticism?


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    #81
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,178 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Are we able to do anything about privileged mentalists with too much time on their hands oppressing the rest of us with horseshit?


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    #82
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    stoneill wrote: »
    Can some one explain the terms CIS and TERF to me please?

    A web search engine is a software system that is designed to search for information on the World Wide Web. The search results are generally presented in a line of results often referred to as search engine results pages (SERPs). The information may be a mix of web pages, images, and other types of files. Some search engines also mine data available in databases or open directories. Unlike web directories, which are maintained only by human editors, search engines also maintain real-time information by running an algorithm on a web crawler.


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    #83
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Saipanne wrote: »
    No, I had a look and didn't see a whole lot. Maybe emails are worse. But being a public figure means that angry internet folks will say nasty things. If the internet wasn't so anonymous, maybe that would stop. But why should that mean she is above criticism?

    Who said she was above criticism?


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    #84
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,443 ✭✭✭tritium


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Gender critical feminists think that gender is a social construct. Generally the trans movement is saying the opposite, that gender is innate.

    They also object to people with functioning penises being allowed into womens spaces.

    Also, I hate to say it but there is an awful lot of misogyny present in some aspects of the trans movement.

    Interesting, I would have said something quite opposite, that there's a lot if misandry in many of the feminist views of transgender. Its nothing new either, feminist policy adversely affected transgender back in the days of the Reagan administration.


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    #85
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,467 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Penn wrote: »
    About half and half I'd say. Though even if it was 10 normal : 1 abusive, doesn't make my point any different though. She does receive a lot of abuse/trolling, wouldn't you agree?

    She does talk a lot of shiite too so maybe the mob gets it right on occassion . If she wants an echo chamber that is her problem. Nobody is forced to use twitter , she can do all her stuff through a moderated website .

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #86
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    StewartGriffin wrote: »
    After reading recently that many feminists regarded a male pornstar James Deen who specialises in female humiliation and rape scenes as a feminist, I have to admit I don't know what's going on any more.
    Choice.
    One aspect of equality is the individual's right to choose, and apparently James Deen championed the power of female performers in that regard (where often they may be told "do it or you're finished").
    Specialising in rape scenes isn't at that odds with that philosophy provided you ensure that everyone involved is doing it entirely of their own free will.

    It doesn't make a porn star a rapist or mysogynist in the same way that playing Hitler in a movie doesn't mean an actor is a maniac and antisemetic.


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    #87
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Kev W wrote: »
    Who said she was above criticism?

    If you look carefully, her legion of loyal followers conflate genuine critics with genuine trolls.

    Ergo, no critics allowed.


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    #88
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,824 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Saipanne wrote: »
    If you look carefully, her legion of loyal followers conflate genuine critics with genuine trolls.

    Ergo, no critics allowed.

    "YOUR 15 MINUTES OF FAME IS GONE BABY #DealWithIt NOT EVEN #GamerGate cares about your channel anymore. " - Not genuine criticism
    " .. Yeah?? ..... I'm not looking forward to watch a lier" - Not genuine criticism
    "Nah, you keep it luv. It'll be utter bull**** if you're endorsing it dear." - Not genuine criticism
    "the only cancer is feminism" - Just nonsense
    "You always complain the women are not treated fairly yet you represent everything wrong with not only women but the whole world." - Not genuine criticism

    All of that, not even in response to a review of a game, but announcing that they will soon be posting a review of a game.

    Explain to me how that's genuine criticism.


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    #89
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,922 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    stoneill wrote: »
    Can some one explain the terms CIS and TERF to me please?



    TERF: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminism


    (first time I'd ever heard of it either tbh)


    CIS: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cisgender


    (more makey-uppy nonsense for the special snowflake generation)


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    #90
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Cheers.

    Seriously though: your post said that Sarkeesian's modus operandi was to claim that she was being abused. She gets regular death threats and rape threats, and ignoring them is wildly dishonest.


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    #91
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Penn wrote: »
    "YOUR 15 MINUTES OF FAME IS GONE BABY #DealWithIt NOT EVEN #GamerGate cares about your channel anymore. " - Not genuine criticism
    " .. Yeah?? ..... I'm not looking forward to watch a lier" - Not genuine criticism
    "Nah, you keep it luv. It'll be utter bull**** if you're endorsing it dear." - Not genuine criticism
    "the only cancer is feminism" - Just nonsense
    "You always complain the women are not treated fairly yet you represent everything wrong with not only women but the whole world." - Not genuine criticism

    All of that, not even in response to a review of a game, but announcing that they will soon be posting a review of a game.

    Explain to me how that's genuine criticism.

    You're just cherry picking bad comments to make it look like it's all abuse on her page, which is exactly my point.

    Thank you.


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