Feminism at odds with the trans movement

LuckyLloyd

There was a time where the feminist movement was a major catalyst for achieving legislative reform in key areas including:

- pay and conditions
- discrimination and protection
- deletion of government missives like 'a woman's place is in the home'
- abortion
- contraception

While there seems to be a furious 'culture war' playing out in Universities and on the 'twittersphere' what real substantive tangible legislative or electoral change is being produced by same? What is really on the table that matters?

If you fundamentally believe in equality I really think feminism is down the queue at this point in time in modern Ireland. I'm far more interested in things like:

- abortion
- ageism in the workplace
- accepting ethnic diversity in Irish society
- father's rights
- paternity leave for men
- poverty

Frankly my eyes glaze over at someone trying to tell me that gender is a social construct or that 'gender fluidity' is a major issue. If we were all genuinely thinking about equality we'd all generally be alright in the end.

Dirty Dingus McGee

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There was a time where the feminist movement was a major catalyst for achieving legislative reform in key areas including:

- pay and conditions
- discrimination and protection
- deletion of government missives like 'a woman's place is in the home'
- abortion
- contraception

While there seems to be a furious 'culture war' playing out in Universities and on the 'twittersphere' what real substantive tangible legislative or electoral change is being produced by same? What is really on the table that matters?

If you fundamentally believe in equality I really think feminism is down the queue at this point in time in modern Ireland. I'm far more interested in things like:

- abortion
- ageism in the workplace
- accepting ethnic diversity in Irish society
- father's rights
- maternity leave for men
- poverty

Frankly my eyes glaze over at someone trying to tell me that gender is a social construct or that 'gender fluidity' is a major issue. If we were all genuinely thinking about equality we'd all generally be alright in the end.

I really hope that is never introduced.It would just be too weird.

jobbridge4life

mzungu wrote: »

I have discussed this with friends who are feminists and they find the man hating, excessive self victimisation and trans phobic agenda to be abhorrent. The problem here is that this very small subset of modern day Feminism seem to be given ample platforms in the media to air their views unchallenged. I have no issue with them spouting their views, but it really should be throughly debated and dissected and exposed for the complete BS that it is. Although that might be seen as oppression in their eyes.

Also, this CIS/TERF/Whatever your having yourself, is madness. It is like it was dreamed up by ivory tower academics in order to flesh out a gender studies module.

Agreed, I think there is widespread acceptance of many feminist values but there is a militant and vocal cohort who are driving feminism into very stark territory and appear utterly unwilling to bring people along with them. Every heated interaction, is abuse/harassment; even trying to point out that not all men are rapists or violent thugs etc. is treated as a laughable joke... Its very difficult to accept.

suicide_circus

If gender is fluid how are people sure that they should be the other gender?

Saipanne

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Agreed, I think there is widespread acceptance of many feminist values but there is a militant and vocal cohort who are driving feminism into very stark territory and appear utterly unwilling to bring people along with them. Every heated interaction, is abuse/harassment; even trying to point out that not all men are rapists or violent thugs etc. is treated as a laughable joke... Its very difficult to accept.

It's their ideas around rape accusations that are most dangerous of all. This is what happens when ideologies become cults.

Carlos Orange

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I really hope that is never introduced.It would just be too weird.

I'm sure that was just a mistake by LuckyLloyd but in our brave new world it is pretty inevitable too.

silverharp

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Agreed, I think there is widespread acceptance of many feminist values but there is a militant and vocal cohort who are driving feminism into very stark territory and appear utterly unwilling to bring people along with them. Every heated interaction, is abuse/harassment; even trying to point out that not all men are rapists or violent thugs etc. is treated as a laughable joke... Its very difficult to accept.

The thing is there is no middle of the road feminists being critical of these people . the only blue water you ever see is for feminists like Julie Bindel who wants to put men in camps but most of the heat is because she is critical of trans people
Even if you look at little dust ups like the abbey theatre last year, it was all one way traffic with the manager guy checking his privilege and nobody asking are young female playwrights any good . or why they only submit 1 in 3 scripts yet get angry because more plays on production are written by men.

Sheeps

It's basically all a load of bollix

Samaris

I dunno, I think there is something in the whole idea of gender being a social construct, although I think it's over-simplifying a bit. At base, there are certain elements of gender that are down to societal norms, and societal norms -are- socially constructed. Here's some obvious ones. Note that they are utterly unrelated to sex, but are related to gender.

Dress - Women and men have very specific dress codes that differentiate them from each other. Men are actually more hit by them, having a far more restricted wardrobe. Why are dresses specifically for women? If it comes to that, why is mens' dress generally restricted to darker colours, and leaning more towards blacks, greys and dull blues, reds and greens (navy, maroon and ..er..dark green). Is this a biological imperative or is it something 'constructed'. I don't see any particular -reason- that males should have to have their legs constricted into two tubes, and, in fact, the compression of the groin area can lead to UTIs and damage to the testicles. But nope, robes and dresses are girly [a bad thing] and so mens fashion is extremely conservative.

Colours - I've touched on women having a far wider colour palette they can wear in public, but how about the old colour coding? Pink = girls, blue = boys -except- that in Victorian times it was the other way around. Pink was a manly colour, blue was relating to the Virgin Mary and thus a feminine ideal. Is that related at all to biological sex or is it societally constructed norm [and/or horsecrap].

Two utterly cosmetic but very visible societally constructed effects of "gender" on people in day to day life. And that's without getting into the thousand and one other differences that society pressures men and women on every day, not because of a biological imperative, but because it's socially constructed, aka It's Expected.

No, I think there's an argument to be made for the concept of gender to be socially constructed. It's just got such a broad name that it gets disregarded as being some weirdass -ism thought up by people with their heads in the clouds and too much time on their hands.

Agreed, I think there is widespread acceptance of many feminist values but there is a militant and vocal cohort who are driving feminism into very stark territory and appear utterly unwilling to bring people along with them. Every heated interaction, is abuse/harassment; even trying to point out that not all men are rapists or violent thugs etc. is treated as a laughable joke... Its very difficult to accept.

Yep, but there is in any given section of agreed-upon views. There are extremist right-wingers and extremist left-wingers, there are religious sorts that just want to be left alone to get on with their lives and people that feel they should kill anyone that disagrees with them. One should be very careful of letting that cohort represent a concept in one's own head.

Extremism is the enemy. When extremist views are allowed to colour the entire perception of a given concept, the extremists win, and the moderates suffer for it.

jobbridge4life

Samaris wrote: »

Yep, but there is in any given section of agreed-upon views. There are extremist right-wingers and extremist left-wingers, there are religious sorts that just want to be left alone to get on with their lives and people that feel they should kill anyone that disagrees with them. One should be very careful of letting that cohort represent a concept in one's own head.

Extremism is the enemy. When extremist views are allowed to colour the entire perception of a given concept, the extremists win, and the moderates suffer for it.

Yes, we should be careful about allowing the extreme elements to colour our perception of the overall movement. Its true that everything will have its fringe and loons but I maintain that in the recent few years in feminism the more radical voices have come to dominate the narrative, even moderate feminists are hounded when they fail to adhere to the entire platform. I've always considered myself a feminist (I'm male) but its a word I'm more cautious about describing myself with these days for that reason.

darkpagandeath

To Be honest it's always going to end up with special snowflakes eating other special snowflakes as they are the special snowflakes. Check you're privilege.

steddyeddy

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I really hope that is never introduced.It would just be too weird.

Well it should be called paternity leave for a start.

smash

Interesting extract from a blog I just found:

It took me years to figure out that answering what I thought I was being asked without asking what was really being asked was not useful. This was ages ago, in the beginning of the feminist movement. I had my own definition of what this was. My definition, however it was arrived at, was in the nature of "someone who believed that every being has the right to shelter, food, care, and instruction that would allow them to unfold their full potential". I now know that I must have made it up. But I would answer the question, "Are you a feminist?" or "Are you one of those feminists?" with a "Yes." Much to my surprise, the responses to my answer varied. Sometimes I was welcomed into groups that seemed to regard weapons and genitals as the same thing. Sometimes the groups were busy changing "e" to "y" in words so that we wound up with "womyn" and "humyn". Other linguistically focused groups were busy changing "men" into "persons", as in "chairperson". Frighteningly, there were also weird illogical worlds where a "womyn" talked of "peace" and of aborting all male fetuses in the same breath. Charges of being a "ball-breaker", a "hater of males" and a "cold, calculating bitch" were numerous.

One day, and fortunately, a light went on and I heard myself say, "What are you asking me?" I was saved. Funnily enough, most of those who were asking me if I was a feminist or believed in feminism didn't have a definition and the attack or the seduction would mysteriously dissipate.

Ken.

Kev W wrote: »

A web search engine is a software system that is designed to search for information on the World Wide Web. The search results are generally presented in a line of results often referred to as search engine results pages (SERPs). The information may be a mix of web pages, images, and other types of files. Some search engines also mine data available in databases or open directories. Unlike web directories, which are maintained only by human editors, search engines also maintain real-time information by running an algorithm on a web crawler.

Kev, you've been around long enough to know that that type of post is not welcome. Please reread the charter. Especially page 1 rule 1.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055747615

Don't be a dick.

If you can do that you're unlikely to encounter any problems here.

Samaris

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Yes, we should be careful about allowing the extreme elements to colour our perception of the overall movement. Its true that everything will have its fringe and loons but I maintain that in the recent few years in feminism the more radical voices have come to dominate the narrative, even moderate feminists are hounded when they fail to adhere to the entire platform. I've always considered myself a feminist (I'm male) but its a word I'm more cautious about describing myself with these days for that reason.

I think though that that is a common thing across many sectors of society. The internet is full of radicalising talk - how often do you see "leftie loonies" or "right-wing nutters" or "This is why [insert political platform] is bad, they're all X". Or "ban the Muslims, they're all terrorists!" And at the same time, the most extreme views of all these groups are the ones promoted in the media, because they're the most shocking, they're the views that will elicit a particular response in the reader (and their clicks!). I can give a list of the idiotic things that Donald Trump has said over the past few months; despite his being so far on the other side of the political spectrum to me that I should be barely able to see him, I could list off far more things he's said than, say, Clinton or Sanders. But despite his views being the ones shouted from the rooftops, I still reckon that a very large percentage of Republicans don't agree with his rubbish at all.

"Moderate Muslim chap says that ISIS are a bunch of arseholes" just isn't going to get the internet traffic that "Radical Islam preacher praises suicide bomber!" is, despite there being a hell of a lot more of the former than the latter.

Same way, "Feminist woman trundles on with her life and has a go at negative societal constructs" isn't going to get the same interest as "Feminist says that all male foetus' should be aborted".

melissak

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I really hope that is never introduced.It would just be too weird.

How dare you oppress men by not allowing them their right to give birth. You monster.

darkpagandeath

melissak wrote: »

How dare you oppress men by not allowing them their right to give birth. You monster.

Careful now, Being able to procreates is not tied to Sex or Gender now.

stoneill

One eyed Jack wrote: »

TERF: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminism


(first time I'd ever heard of it either tbh)


CIS: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cisgender


(more makey-uppy nonsense for the special snowflake generation)

Thanks for that.
So basically it is one perceived group claiming supremacy over another perceived group but instead of skin colour its based on gender and sexual bias?

The_Captain

Do these people exist in real life or is this just another weird internet thing?

jobbridge4life

Samaris wrote: »

I think though that that is a common thing across many sectors of society. The internet is full of radicalising talk - how often do you see "leftie loonies" or "right-wing nutters" or "This is why [insert political platform] is bad, they're all X". Or "ban the Muslims, they're all terrorists!" And at the same time, the most extreme views of all these groups are the ones promoted in the media, because they're the most shocking, they're the views that will elicit a particular response in the reader (and their clicks!). I can give a list of the idiotic things that Donald Trump has said over the past few months; despite his being so far on the other side of the political spectrum to me that I should be barely able to see him, I could list off far more things he's said than, say, Clinton or Sanders. But despite his views being the ones shouted from the rooftops, I still reckon that a very large percentage of Republicans don't agree with his rubbish at all.

"Moderate Muslim chap says that ISIS are a bunch of arseholes" just isn't going to get the internet traffic that "Radical Islam preacher praises suicide bomber!" is, despite there being a hell of a lot more of the former than the latter.

Same way, "Feminist woman trundles on with her life and has a go at negative societal constructs" isn't going to get the same interest as "Feminist says that all male foetus' should be aborted".

Of course, I am not debating the distortative effect of the media but just as the Republican party has lurched to the right in the recent few years I believe that feminism, in so far as it can be considered a movement, has evolved and in a way that, in my view at least, is not entirely for the better.

The situation in the United States is particularly alarming. Campus politics is becoming increasingly extreme (this is not limited to feminism), and there are real living examples of the significant devastation that can be wrought on innocent people's lives.

riffmongous

The_Captain wrote: »

Do these people exist in real life or is this just another weird internet thing?

I've never come across any of this sort of stuff in real life, or even on my usual internet perusing, with the exception of Boards, in particular After Hours. I should never have to know what this tiny minority of people are crapping on about but yet there are regular threads on here supposed to be about giving out about them, but really just giving them far more attention than they should by getting.

Saipanne

They exist in real life. I know a few. They're grand, so long as you avoid certain topics.

Sheeps

What if a militant feminist is also a vegan and does cross fit? What then???

Saipanne

Sheeps wrote: »

What if a militant feminist is also a vegan and does cross fit? What then???

It creates a singularity that consumes the universe.

Sheeps

It would be shaped like a vagina.

nokia69

riffmongous wrote: »

I've never come across any of this sort of stuff in real life, or even on my usual internet perusing, with the exception of Boards, in particular After Hours. I should never have to know what this tiny minority of people are crapping on about but yet there are regular threads on here supposed to be about giving out about them, but really just giving them far more attention than they should by getting.

For a small number of people they seem to have plenty of power to get any law they want changed

darkpagandeath

nokia69 wrote: »

For a small number of people they seem to have plenty of power to get any law they want changed

Equality !!! When everyone is Equal .... No one will be...

melissak

The_Captain wrote: »

Do these people exist in real life or is this just another weird internet thing?

I've never encountered them, either radical feminists or Irish trans people, and I know loads of weird and wonderful people.
I knew in my raving days a couple of crossdressers but they had no desire to actually be women.
Met some trans ladies in Thailand but they were all prostitutes and they were of the opinion that most ladyboys (their words) were, this is not transphobia, these are people I met not a slur on others btw. Some were not even gay, it was a money thing.

PucaMama

melissak wrote: »

I've never encountered them, either radical feminists or Irish trans people, and I know loads of weird and wonderful people.
I knew in my raving days a couple of crossdressers but they had no desire to actually be women.
Met some trans ladies in Thailand but they were all prostitutes and we're of the opinion that most ladyboys (their words) were, this is not transphobia these are people I met not a slur on others btw. Some were not even gay, it was a money thing.

Are you suggesting trans people are prostitutes or that there are none in Ireland?

Samaris

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Of course, I am not debating the distortative effect of the media but just as the Republican party has lurched to the right in the recent few years I believe that feminism, in so far as it can be considered a movement, has evolved and in a way that, in my view at least, is not entirely for the better.

The situation in the United States is particularly alarming. Campus politics is becoming increasingly extreme (this is not limited to feminism), and there are real living examples of the significant devastation that can be wrought on innocent people's lives.

I agree that the visible parts of both have swung towards the extreme edge, yeah. I just suspect that in both cases there's a quieter and somewhat bemused majority that don't particularly associate their own political ideas with the extremists using their label. I also agree as regards the campus politics (at least in the examples that have been waved around of late in the media), and that'll hit a peak and then shrivel again as a majority decide there's quite a lot of cosmetic surface bollocks being spoken in the name of X, Y or Z ideals. It's just a shame that the real issues get drowned out by (the loud) people making a big deal of petty stuff and back away from getting their teeth into what matters.

melissak wrote: »

I've never encountered them, either radical feminists or Irish trans people, and I know loads of weird and wonderful people.

I know a couple of each. Abandoned the radical feminists to it, because it wasn't worth my aggro. Neither of the trans people I know were Irish, but they just seem to quietly get on with their lives like everyone else.

melissak wrote: »

I knew in my raving days a couple of crossdressers but they had no desire to actually be women.

Clothes doth make the man, according to the old saying, but I see no reason why a bloke shouldn't wear a dress if he damn well likes. That only women wear dresses is entirely a social construct.

melissak wrote: »

Met some trans ladies in Thailand but they were all prostitutes and we're of the opinion that most ladyboys (their words) were, this is not transphobia these are people I met not a slur on others btw. Some were not even gay, it was a money thing.

Uncertain who the "we're" is there; I'm assuming you're not a trans Thai prostitute! But I suspect that's far more down to culture - the Thai sex tourist trade is outrageously big over there. I think as an overall thing, suggesting that the majority of trans people are prostitutes is as much of a false statistic from a very limited/biased sample as saying that most gay people or most straight people are prostitutes. The two things aren't inherently related.