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Feminism at odds with the trans movement
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I did an arts degree and over the course of 4 years did several feminism/gender modules. A lot of it made a lot of sense to me. I do feel that gender is in some ways at least, socially constructed. Other ways, not so much.
I graduated in 2011- FOUR years ago- and I actually don't understand modern feminism anymore.
You've got mad stuff like the feminism and Islamic societies in LSE clubbing together to shout down an atheist Muslim woman who is speaking out about islam's tendency to relegate women. I did the Mikado in school, but that was wrong- wearing that kimono was cultural appropriation. If I don't think prostitution is a legit career choice I'm slut shaming women who choose it. If I get pregnant because I'm biologically born a woman I can't put down "mother" on the form. Perhaps most disturbing of all, if I get into a relationship with a man who decides to transition while we're together, I'm transphobic for not wanting to continue a sexual relationship with her despite the fact I am not a lesbian.
I'm not a crusty old daily mail type but I find so much of this internet feminism utterly exhausting and completely irrelevant to my life. I don't spend my days fighting the men in my life- honestly I'm mad about most of them. I also have a sense of humour :P I'm still a feminist- while I can't access full reproductive rights in my own country you're damn right I am- but these angry extremists don't speak to or for me. I think if the left don't pull their heads out of their arses soon it's in serious trouble- it already is!0 -
Figures? Are you serious? Like do you think they keep watch on trans people? Like a register or something?
We take polls on lots if things. And have estimated for lots if other things. Why is it a bad thing to have the same for this?
Is it racist to have the same for Africans in ireland? Or sexist for how many women?0 -
TERF is a slur by the way and is used as synonymous with 'bigot'. Lots of women who disagree with some of trans agenda receive some pretty appalling and misogynistic abuse.
http://thenewbacklash.blogspot.com/p/7-swerf-and-terf.html
You expect to be taken seriously? With that source?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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We take polls on lots if things. And have estimated for lots if other things. Why is it a bad thing to have the same for this?
Is it racist to have the same for Africans in ireland? Or sexist for how many women?
Where are you getting racist and sexist? Why do you need figures to believe there are trans people in Ireland?0 -
Where are you getting racist and sexist? Why do you need figures to believe there are trans people in Ireland?
I don't I'm merely pointing out that taking a count of trans people somewhere is not intrinsically transphobic, just like taking a count of all women isn't sexist. It's just statistics which we take on a massive number of unimportant things0 -
I don't I'm merely pointing out that taking a count of trans people somewhere is not intrinsically transphobic, just like taking a count of all women isn't sexist. It's just statistics which we take on a massive number of unimportant things
No one said its transphobic I'm questioning the need for them? As an example my sister knows roughly 12 trans people. There are plenty more.0 -
Figures? Are you serious? Like do you think they keep watch on trans people? Like a register or something?
This comment appeared to me to suggest that having an estimated number of how many trans people are cureently present in Ireland was transphobic. As if doing something that is done on a massive number of different variables was somehow wrong if done to trans people.
The need for them is irrelevant, do we need to know how many african people are in Ireland? probably not but we do and nobody calls that racist or accuses people of wanting to "keep count" or a "registry" of african people0 -
TERF is a slur by the way and is used as synonymous with 'bigot'. Lots of women who disagree with some of trans agenda receive some pretty appalling and misogynistic abuse.
http://thenewbacklash.blogspot.com/p/7-swerf-and-terf.html
And here was me thinking they were called radical feminists because they are fond of surfing.
Plenty of abuse in the link, didn't see anything misogynistic. Did you know misogynistic is used as a slur?0 -
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I am so glad that the people at the far edges of these movements found each other. They deserve it.0
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Look I don't care what it's called but I don't like when men post in the ladies lounge
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I did an arts degree and over the course of 4 years did several feminism/gender modules. A lot of it made a lot of sense to me. I do feel that gender is in some ways at least, socially constructed. Other ways, not so much.
I graduated in 2011- FOUR years ago- and I actually don't understand modern feminism anymore.
You've got mad stuff like the feminism and Islamic societies in LSE clubbing together to shout down an atheist Muslim woman who is speaking out about islam's tendency to relegate women. I did the Mikado in school, but that was wrong- wearing that kimono was cultural appropriation. If I don't think prostitution is a legit career choice I'm slut shaming women who choose it. If I get pregnant because I'm biologically born a woman I can't put down "mother" on the form. Perhaps most disturbing of all, if I get into a relationship with a man who decides to transition while we're together, I'm transphobic for not wanting to continue a sexual relationship with her despite the fact I am not a lesbian.
I'm not a crusty old daily mail type but I find so much of this internet feminism utterly exhausting and completely irrelevant to my life. I don't spend my days fighting the men in my life- honestly I'm mad about most of them. I also have a sense of humour :P I'm still a feminist- while I can't access full reproductive rights in my own country you're damn right I am- but these angry extremists don't speak to or for me. I think if the left don't pull their heads out of their arses soon it's in serious trouble- it already is!
I would totally agree with you regarding reproductive rights. I actually see very little feminists bringing attention to this. I would gladly call myself a feminists regarding this issue.0 -
I'm not a crusty old daily mail type but I find so much of this internet feminism utterly exhausting and completely irrelevant to my life. I don't spend my days fighting the men in my life- honestly I'm mad about most of them. I also have a sense of humour :P I'm still a feminist- while I can't access full reproductive rights in my own country you're damn right I am- but these angry extremists don't speak to or for me. I think if the left don't pull their heads out of their arses soon it's in serious trouble- it already is!
Why do people constantly portray this as something that "the left" are in lockstep with?
You'll find that most of the people on "the left" are just as bemused, astounded, confused and just all out shocked at how crazy a lot of this nonsense is.
I actually find an awful lot of what I read about modern "gender/sexual politics" nothing to do with "the left", or any sensibilities that I would associate with that end of political thinking and frankly a lot of the people espousing the more hardline rhetoric are what I would term rather fascist in their views and are usually of the type that aren't interested in any kind of dialogue and wholly devoted to "may way or the highway" frame of thought and action.
The "extremists" you speak of are certainly not what I would call "left wing" in their thinking, or their actions and words.
Feminists and other walks of "ists" come in a lot of different flavours and it's a mistake to lump them all into a single bag (not that you're doing that), but I think that it transcends the traditional "left" and "right" wing political labels. A lot of what goes on today, within the context of what we're talking about, is just as bemusing to a left winger as it is to a right winger.0 -
Why do people constantly portray this as something that "the left" are in lockstep with?
You'll find that most of the people on "the left" are just as bemused, astounded, confused and just all out shocked at how crazy a lot of this nonsense is.
I actually find an awful lot of what I read about modern "gender/sexual politics" nothing to do with "the left", or any sensibilities that I would associate with that end of political thinking and frankly a lot of the people espousing the more hardline rhetoric are what I would term rather fascist in their views and are usually of the type that aren't interested in any kind of dialogue and wholly devoted to "may way or the highway" frame of thought and action.
The "extremists" you speak of are certainly not what I would call "left wing" in their thinking, or their actions and words.
Feminists and other walks of "ists" come in a lot of different flavours and it's a mistake to lump them all into a single bag (not that you're doing that), but I think that it transcends the traditional "left" and "right" wing political labels. A lot of what goes on today, within the context of what we're talking about, is just as bemusing to a left winger as it is to a right winger.
I guess because I always considered myself more left than right- albeit with conditions. And the traditional thing was always that feminism lay more on the left, and that socially conservative values always were at odds with feminism as *I* see it.
I was a member of a couple of Facebook groups and stuff that I left because of stuff like the more extreme stuff I mentioned in my first post. I once got into an argument with a feminist blogger who, if you took her argument to its logical conclusion, stated that Tesco was to blame for one its employees for being in a violent relationship. What got to me was that feeling of "but these are the people I'm supposed to agree with! Am I turning into an old Tory in my dotage?" because as you say, there is no dissent tolerated from these groups.
One poster dared to ask to have cultural appropriation explained to her (this was in a music group!) and she was bullied by so many posters that it was actually quite horrible. That and trigger warnings, which I think are complete and utter bull**** for the vast majority of things, just made me think, nah, why I am subjecting myself to reading this.
And the mods of these groups, and those bloggers all consider themselves left-wing.
Edit: I consider myself on the left, and as you say, I'm bemused by this as well.0 -
I guess because I always considered myself more left than right- albeit with conditions. And the traditional thing was always that feminism lay more on the left, and that socially conservative values always were at odds with feminism as *I* see it.
I was a member of a couple of Facebook groups and stuff that I left because of stuff like the more extreme stuff I mentioned in my first post. I once got into an argument with a feminist blogger who, if you took her argument to its logical conclusion, stated that Tesco was to blame for one its employees for being in a violent relationship. What got to me was that feeling of "but these are the people I'm supposed to agree with! Am I turning into an old Tory in my dotage?" because as you say, there is no dissent tolerated from these groups.
One poster dared to ask to have cultural appropriation explained to her (this was in a music group!) and she was bullied by so many posters that it was actually quite horrible. That and trigger warnings, which I think are complete and utter bull**** for the vast majority of things, just made me think, nah, why I am subjecting myself to reading this.
And the mods of these groups, and those bloggers all consider themselves left-wing.
Edit: I consider myself on the left, and as you say, I'm bemused by this as well.
What is a trigger warning?0 -
What is a trigger warning?
It's a warning you put ahead of a post to say that the content in it might cause upset to others. Like if it's about rape it might "trigger" a traumatic reaction to a rape survivor etc.
It's not the worst idea in the world- for example, Broadsheet had a post on the Dalkey House of Horrors case this morning which was just one of the worst things I've ever read, that definitely could have done with some warning- but it's being abused left, right and centre by the more extreme elements of the feminist movement.
A lot of US colleges have them now on anything from law to literature courses. Some students at Harvard asked their law professors not to teach them rape law because it could be triggering: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/
I realised I was done with it all when someone in one of those Facebook groups placed the trigger warning "heteronormativism" (the assumption that everyone is straight) on a post. Go outside. Turn on TV. Look at bridal magazines. You cannot move for heteronormativism, even in these more enlightened times. And most gay people I know are alright with that, they certainly don't get upset.
It's just ridiculous. Life is bloody triggering.0 -
I guess because I always considered myself more left than right- albeit with conditions. And the traditional thing was always that feminism lay more on the left, and that socially conservative values always were at odds with feminism as *I* see it.
I was a member of a couple of Facebook groups and stuff that I left because of stuff like the more extreme stuff I mentioned in my first post. I once got into an argument with a feminist blogger who, if you took her argument to its logical conclusion, stated that Tesco was to blame for one its employees for being in a violent relationship. What got to me was that feeling of "but these are the people I'm supposed to agree with! Am I turning into an old Tory in my dotage?" because as you say, there is no dissent tolerated from these groups.
One poster dared to ask to have cultural appropriation explained to her (this was in a music group!) and she was bullied by so many posters that it was actually quite horrible. That and trigger warnings, which I think are complete and utter bull**** for the vast majority of things, just made me think, nah, why I am subjecting myself to reading this.
And the mods of these groups, and those bloggers all consider themselves left-wing.
Edit: I consider myself on the left, and as you say, I'm bemused by this as well.
The vast, vast majority of people occupy the humongous space in the centre and generally have a mix of what can traditionally be called "left" and "right" views.
It's the vocal minority on either wing that are generally not open to debate on a personal crusade that they hold dear and I find that those are the people who are regularly used as examples of the "left" or the "right" in order to denigrate a particular stance. But, they certainly don't represent the larger majority.
Likewise, the extreme cases are often used as examples of how "loony" a certain wing of politics is, which is always completely bogus as the majority of people on either wing will be in full agreement. When a 50 year old transgender Canadian man wanted to be a 6 year old girl, it was rightly met with general bewilderment by both sides of the political divide, but of course it was used as an outrage platform by some to push an anti-left agenda, which completely disregarded the fact that most people of a left wing persuasion would have been, at the very least, raising an eyebrow at the story.
Although, what you say is largely true, in that feminism was traditionally put forward by the left in general. But today's "feminism", especially the shouty online version (hello Facebook), isn't the product of the left, as far as I can see, but merely the product of people with extreme views on a single subject, whose general politics may be anything but left wing.0 -
The vast, vast majority of people occupy the humongous space in the centre and generally have a mix of what can traditionally be called "left" and "right" views.
It's the vocal minority on either wing that are generally not open to debate on a personal crusade that they hold dear and I find that those are the people who are regularly used as examples of the "left" or the "right" in order to denigrate a particular stance. But, they certainly don't represent the larger majority.
Likewise, the extreme cases are often used as examples of how "loony" a certain wing of politics is, which is always completely bogus as the majority of people on either wing will be in full agreement. When a 50 year old transgender Canadian man wanted to be a 6 year old girl, it was rightly met with general bewilderment by both sides of the political divide, but of course it was used as an outrage platform by some to push an anti-left agenda, which completely disregarded the fact that most people of a left wing persuasion would have been, at the very least, raising an eyebrow at the story.
Although, what you say is largely true, in that feminism was traditionally put forward by the left in general. But today's "feminism", especially the shouty online version (hello Facebook), isn't the product of the left, as far as I can see, but merely the product of people with extreme views on a single subject, whose general politics may be anything but left wing.
Completely agree with you. I just wonder how we can move forward, because these voices are so loud, and vociferous in their criticism of anyone who disagrees with them (which is almost everyone).0 -
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It's a warning you put ahead of a post to say that the content in it might cause upset to others. Like if it's about rape it might "trigger" a traumatic reaction to a rape survivor etc.
It's not the worst idea in the world- for example, Broadsheet had a post on the Dalkey House of Horrors case this morning which was just one of the worst things I've ever read, that definitely could have done with some warning- but it's being abused left, right and centre by the more extreme elements of the feminist movement.
A lot of US colleges have them now on anything from law to literature courses. Some students at Harvard asked their law professors not to teach them rape law because it could be triggering: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/
I realised I was done with it all when someone in one of those Facebook groups placed the trigger warning "heteronormativism" (the assumption that everyone is straight) on a post. Go outside. Turn on TV. Look at bridal magazines. You cannot move for heteronormativism, even in these more enlightened times. And most gay people I know are alright with that, they certainly don't get upset.
It's just ridiculous. Life is bloody triggering.
Agreed, and while some things may obviously trigger some people due to various circumstances and extremely traumatic experiences, the whole idea of "trigger warnings" has been substantially diminished by people using it simply for things they don't want to hear. It seems to be most commonly used nowadays with regards to so-called fat acceptance, where someone saying they bought a shirt is a trigger warning because it's harder for fat people to find clothes that fit properly.0 -
Completely agree with you. I just wonder how we can move forward, because these voices are so loud, and vociferous in their criticism of anyone who disagrees with them (which is almost everyone).
Well, I think most people simply ignore those types. They're funny from a distance and for an Orwellian 2 minutes of hate, but trying to engage with them is pointless and I have tried, both online and in person. It always ends up the same.
By engaging with those of the more extreme persuasion, you give oxygen to their outbursts and, in a way, legitimise their position.
I can't stress enough these people are on the fringes. They don't represent the bulk, so they're more an interesting anomaly than anything else and at the end of the day, their number and exposure is artificially expanded by the web.0 -
I guess because I always considered myself more left than right- albeit with conditions. And the traditional thing was always that feminism lay more on the left, and that socially conservative values always were at odds with feminism as *I* see it.
I was a member of a couple of Facebook groups and stuff that I left because of stuff like the more extreme stuff I mentioned in my first post. I once got into an argument with a feminist blogger who, if you took her argument to its logical conclusion, stated that Tesco was to blame for one its employees for being in a violent relationship. What got to me was that feeling of "but these are the people I'm supposed to agree with! Am I turning into an old Tory in my dotage?" because as you say, there is no dissent tolerated from these groups.
One poster dared to ask to have cultural appropriation explained to her (this was in a music group!) and she was bullied by so many posters that it was actually quite horrible. That and trigger warnings, which I think are complete and utter bull**** for the vast majority of things, just made me think, nah, why I am subjecting myself to reading this.
And the mods of these groups, and those bloggers all consider themselves left-wing.
Edit: I consider myself on the left, and as you say, I'm bemused by this as well.
the way I see it feminism should really have had a big photo with a banner saying "mission accomplished" somewhere in the mid to late 90's. However that would do a lot of "academics"out of jobs so it has to get the microscope out and create issues where they dont exist. At this stage it looks like a self help group for people with borderline personalitiesA belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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I can't stress enough these people are on the fringes. They don't represent the bulk
That is true and untrue at the same time. Bit of a paradox. They can be representative of where ideas take you. A bit like the guy who shouts yea in this video. He takes Ron Pauls ideas to their natural conclusion even if Ron doesn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepQF7G-It00 -
Interesting. Surely they mean sex? And would lead to the question as to why anyone should have to specify their sex on official documents.steddyeddy wrote: »The segment highlighted the fact that some transgender people feel they should not be asked to put down gender on official documents.0 -
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silverharp wrote: »the way I see it feminism should really have had a big photo with a banner saying "mission accomplished" somewhere in the mid to late 90's. However that would do a lot of "academics"out of jobs so it has to get the microscope out and create issues where they dont exist. At this stage it looks like a self help group for people with borderline personalities
I genuinely wish I could agree with you but there definitely are some areas that are not sorted for women yet. And yes, I'm well aware that there are double standards where women benefit too.
In Ireland (north and south) women don't have access to full reproductive rights and a teenager in Northern Ireland is currently in court for trying to stop an unwanted pregnancy.
The Everyday Sexism project, while it did throw up a lot of nonsense, did highlight that harassment and other discrimination are still a thing. Look at the New Year's Eve attacks in Germany (bad enough they happened, don't care who did it)
I myself have a day job in the corporate sphere and also do creative stuff, and honestly I've only experienced sexism in the arts sector, believe it or not. Not *once* in my day job (from the company, I should say, customers are different :rolleyes:) I think this can be solved by women getting out there and creating though, and there's a lot of great women doing that. In the last few years I've developed the attitude of a Jack Russell who thinks it's a Rottweiler, and this has helped a lot!
Finally and most seriously, there's the issue of women in other parts of the world, women who are not allowed hold down jobs or drive or for whom rape and sexual violence are a daily threat hanging over their head, girls mutilated by FGM, honour killings, etc bloody etc.
These extreme feminists could be doing something about any of this stuff, but they're not. It's culturally insensitive to criticise certain cultures for their treatment of women after all. No, they would rather write about whether it's "problematic" to be upset that David Bowie is dead. (For the record I'm absolutely gutted that he's gone).0 -
I genuinely wish I could agree with you but there definitely are some areas that are not sorted for women yet. And yes, I'm well aware that there are double standards where women benefit too.
In Ireland (north and south) women don't have access to full reproductive rights and a teenager in Northern Ireland is currently in court for trying to stop an unwanted pregnancy.
The Everyday Sexism project, while it did throw up a lot of nonsense, did highlight that harassment and other discrimination are still a thing. Look at the New Year's Eve attacks in Germany (bad enough they happened, don't care who did it)
I myself have a day job in the corporate sphere and also do creative stuff, and honestly I've only experienced sexism in the arts sector, believe it or not. Not *once* in my day job (from the company, I should say, customers are different :rolleyes:) I think this can be solved by women getting out there and creating though, and there's a lot of great women doing that. In the last few years I've developed the attitude of a Jack Russell who thinks it's a Rottweiler, and this has helped a lot!
Finally and most seriously, there's the issue of women in other parts of the world, women who are not allowed hold down jobs or drive or for whom rape and sexual violence are a daily threat hanging over their head, girls mutilated by FGM, honour killings, etc bloody etc.
These extreme feminists could be doing something about any of this stuff, but they're not. It's culturally insensitive to criticise certain cultures for their treatment of women after all. No, they would rather write about whether it's "problematic" to be upset that David Bowie is dead. (For the record I'm absolutely gutted that he's gone).
Absolutely there is a job for women's activism, for instance women like ayaan hirsi ali do great job highlighting issues but you dont need feminist soundbites or the progressive stack,simple justice principles cover itA belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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