Is there any point in considering returning home to Dublin?

Shelga

Hi, I'm 28, good stable job in England on pretty good money IMO, but getting restless and bored.

From keeping an eye on property developments at home, it seems like I'd be able to move to and buy a place on my own somewhere outside Dublin, but Dublin itself is a bit grim if you're looking to buy alone.

Assuming I could move home and get a job on around €40-45k, (educated guess but could be way off the mark, I've been gone nearly 5 years now), could I afford anything other than a 1 bed apt in an OK part of Dublin, or a 2 bed in a not-so-nice area?

Anywhere round me in England that you'd actually want to live is fairly expensive too so it's not like this is a hundred times better, although there is more choice. Just trying to weigh it all up.

Not to be a whinger and come home expecting to be able to afford a 3 bed semi-d in a nice area on my own, but it's just Dublin is where all my family and friends are so can't see moving anywhere else. I expect a lot of people who moved away in the last few years are in the same boat. :-/

What's likely to happen to Dublin property prices in 2016? Any sign of supply meeting demand in the next few years? Or should I just resign myself to the idea of living in England indefinitely...

*edit* I'm aiming to have about €30k in savings by the end of the year to be used as a potential deposit, but still not optimistic that could get me anything too nice. €180k total for a property in Dublin seems to get you feck all, am I right?

the groutch

your biggest issues are:

1. unless a bank uses some of their small amount of exeptions on you, you're limited to 3.5 times your gross income

2. you'd need to be in permanent employment, so you'd have to have cleared any probation periods before applying

3. rents have gone sky-high in Dublin, so it might be difficult to pay rent and add regular savings, unless you share with someone

Mrs OBumble

You're bored and restless, and you think that the solution to this is to tie yourself to a mortgage for 25+ years?

L1011

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You're bored and restless, and you think that the solution to this is to tie yourself to a mortgage for 25+ years?

It works quite well at stopping travel and similar things you might do when bored and restless!

Shelga

I meant bored and restless of life in England. I miss home sometimes and am just weighing up my options.

SarahMollie

Shelga wrote: »

Hi, I'm 28, good stable job in England on pretty good money IMO, but getting restless and bored.

From keeping an eye on property developments at home, it seems like I'd be able to move to and buy a place on my own somewhere outside Dublin, but Dublin itself is a bit grim if you're looking to buy alone.

Assuming I could move home and get a job on around €40-45k, (educated guess but could be way off the mark, I've been gone nearly 5 years now), could I afford anything other than a 1 bed apt in an OK part of Dublin, or a 2 bed in a not-so-nice area?

Anywhere round me in England that you'd actually want to live is fairly expensive too so it's not like this is a hundred times better, although there is more choice. Just trying to weigh it all up.

Not to be a whinger and come home expecting to be able to afford a 3 bed semi-d in a nice area on my own, but it's just Dublin is where all my family and friends are so can't see moving anywhere else. I expect a lot of people who moved away in the last few years are in the same boat. :-/

What's likely to happen to Dublin property prices in 2016? Any sign of supply meeting demand in the next few years? Or should I just resign myself to the idea of living in England indefinitely...

*edit* I'm aiming to have about €30k in savings by the end of the year to be used as a potential deposit, but still not optimistic that could get me anything too nice. €180k total for a property in Dublin seems to get you feck all, am I right?

€180k wont get you much in Dublin. You'd be talking apartments only, and not top areas by any stretch.

What industry is your sales experience in? Lots of jobs in IT for example, but many are inside sales roles, so a basic of 40-45 is probably the higher end (of course you've the rest of your OTE, but banks wont consider this for mortgage purposes).

What parts of Dublin interest you?

Michael D Not Higgins

Honestly, you're competing with couples and thus dual incomes. This is why you'll always be on the back foot in the property market.

MarkAnthony

180K will get you quite a reasonable property in certain areas, some better than others. Outside of some very small pockets of Dublin there are no really bad areas to be quite honest.

SarahMollie

MarkAnthony wrote: »

180K will get you quite a reasonable property in certain areas, some better than others. Outside of some very small pockets of Dublin there are no really bad areas to be quite honest.

Yeah but define "bad area" and define "reasonable property"

If the OP has his heart on a 3 bed semi for example, then (parts of) Tallaght is about the best he can hope for for that budget.

Alternatively, if a 2 bed apartment will do, then that opens up more options.

Also, regarding area, to me choice of where to live is more than just avoiding places with extreme anti social behavior issues. For an area to be good in my eyes it has to fit in with my lifestyle, transport links, nice amenities, etc. Simply not fearing that my car will be burned out every night is not enough.

I think we need the OP to clarify what his expectations are in order to properly advise.

This is an example of what €180k buys you in an area thats neither terrible nor spectacular.

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/apt-131-meridian-court-ashtown-dublin-15/3451031

testaccount123

Shelga wrote: »

I meant bored and restless of life in England. I miss home sometimes and am just weighing up my options.

Then rent in Ireland, its not mandatory to buy if you want to move back?!

MarkAnthony

SarahMollie wrote: »

Yeah but define "bad area" and define "reasonable property"

You've said it below, the OP needs to define that.

SarahMollie wrote: »

Also, regarding area, to me choice of where to live is more than just avoiding places with extreme anti social behavior issues. For an area to be good in my eyes it has to fit in with my lifestyle, transport links, nice amenities, etc.

However there does seem to be the standard Dublin Alarmist attitude about you post to a degree...

SarahMollie wrote: »

Simply not fearing that my car will be burned out every night is not enough.

Many people seem to do the same thing here. That can work in the OP's favour. My example is living in Kilbarrack. Asked on boards and got a 50/50 split on it's ground zero vs. it's grand. My experience is it's next to a great park, very polite kids, great sense of community and I'm less than a mile from a beach, less than 5 from every possible facility and 15 minutes by DART to town.

My point is Dublin people need to fully investigate areas. Many areas have changed over the last few years.

SarahMollie wrote: »

I think we need the OP to clarify what his expectations are in order to properly advise.

No argument there.

SarahMollie wrote: »

This is an example of what €180k buys you in an area thats neither terrible nor spectacular.

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/apt-131-meridian-court-ashtown-dublin-15/3451031

Fair enough but there are properties coming up in Kilbarrack at around 180K which are very nice fixer-upper two beds with the above amenities.

the groutch

the groutch wrote: »

2. you'd need to be in permanent employment, so you'd have to have cleared any probation periods before applying

I read this regularly and it's not really the case for everyone. They do give mortgages to people on contract, the bank told me that they do (certain careers tend to be contract for years starting out and the bank understand this) and a guy I work with recently got a mortgage and he would have at most a two year contract as one and two year contracts are the norm in my area of work.

SarahMollie

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Fair enough but there are properties coming up in Kilbarrack at around 180K which are very nice fixer-upper two beds with the above amenities.

My first point was rhetorical - how long is a piece of string.

The issue with a fixer upper is that you either have to have the cash available above your €180k budget to do the work, or be prepared to live in it as is and do the work only as you can afford. Also, these projects can end up becoming more expensive than initially envisaged as some issues with properties only become apparent once you start the work.

Shelga

Kilbarrack would be the sort of area I'd consider too. A compromise, pros and cons. I know I'd have to live in an apartment unless I want to live in a commuter town. I don't think I'd be interested in a fixer-upper as I don't have the know-how, money or patience.

I'd rent or house share initially and am aware it could take 6-12 months in a permanent job before banks even look at me. I've never been one for saying 'rent is dead money' but the idea of spending €12-15k a year plus bills to live alone doesn't appeal. I think most people start at least considering buying around my age.

In terms of lifestyle aspect, yeah you want somewhere that has a bit more than just being safe from extreme crime Close to a park, good transport links, a few shops/pubs nearby, and preferably not more than a 20 minute drive from the sea, as that's a big draw in moving back to Dublin.

I know being single means my options are limited

SarahMollie

Shelga wrote: »

Kilbarrack would be the sort of area I'd consider too. A compromise, pros and cons. I know I'd have to live in an apartment unless I want to live in a commuter town. I don't think I'd be interested in a fixer-upper as I don't have the know-how, money or patience.

I'd rent or house share initially and am aware it could take 6-12 months in a permanent job before banks even look at me. I've never been one for saying 'rent is dead money' but the idea of spending €12-15k a year plus bills to live alone doesn't appeal. I think most people start at least considering buying around my age.

In terms of lifestyle aspect, yeah you want somewhere that has a bit more than just being safe from extreme crime Close to a park, good transport links, a few shops/pubs nearby, and preferably not more than a 20 minute drive from the sea, as that's a big draw in moving back to Dublin.

I know being single means my options are limited

Well good news OP, it sounds like your expectations are in fact not ridiculous

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/3-howth-junction-court-kilbarrack-dublin-5/3423710

MarkAnthony

Fixer-upper as in perfectly fine to live in but could be nicer.

Shelga

Thanks Sarah-Mollie, hadn't seen that place! Exactly the type I'd be thinking about.

I suppose I'm also nervous about what's gonna happen this year and next. If I move back is that €180k apartment going to have gone up to €210k. I know no one has a crystal ball but I don't hear much about potential new developments and predictions of ways to stem the supply issue.

Now like a lot of others I need to start researching jobs and having a good long think about if it's worth all the hassle. Enda and his calls to all of us to come home... :rolleyes:

SarahMollie

Shelga wrote: »

Thanks Sarah-Mollie, hadn't seen that place! Exactly the type I'd be thinking about.

I suppose I'm also nervous about what's gonna happen this year and next. If I move back is that €180k apartment going to have gone up to €210k. I know no one has a crystal ball but I don't hear much about potential new developments and predictions of ways to stem the supply issue.

Now like a lot of others I need to start researching jobs and having a good long think about if it's worth all the hassle. Enda and his calls to all of us to come home... :rolleyes:

My 2c....


If you can turn your sales skills to IT/Pharma, you'll be grand

Secondly, price rises in Dublin are slowing thanks to the central bank rules. I think they will increase in 2016, but not at a rocketing pace. Keep saving a bit and you should be fine.

Shelga

Thanks, I'm in manufacturing though, still figuring out what's around in Dublin in that industry.

Idbatterim

Now like a lot of others I need to start researching jobs and having a good long think about if it's worth all the hassle. Enda and his calls to all of us to come home...

Its total bull****, the ridiculous marginal rate and if you are coming back to Dublin, ridiculous rents... Yeah they will throw a few euro back a week on an average salary, lets get real though, the rental situation in Dublin is a far bigger issue to most than a few euro. Typical they wont sort out the real issue though, health, transport, housing and justice etc, just start decimating the tax base again, genius :mad: Start cutting which applies to all income and take more out of the tax net, who are already contributing far too little in direct taxes...

what are the rents and purchase prices like in comparable uk cities like glasgow, edinburgh, manchester, leeds etc? A good bit cheaper I would imagine...

MarkAnthony

Idbatterim wrote: »

Its total bull****, the ridiculous marginal rate and if you are coming back to Dublin, ridiculous rents... Yeah they will throw a few euro back a week on an average salary, lets get real though, the rental situation in Dublin is a far bigger issue to most than a few euro. Typical they wont sort out the real issue though, health, transport, housing and justice etc, just start decimating the tax base again, genius :mad: Start cutting which applies to all income and take more out of the tax net, who are already contributing far too little in direct taxes...

what are the rents and purchase prices like in comparable uk cities like glasgow, edinburgh, manchester, leeds etc? A good bit cheaper I would imagine...

Edinburgh is more expensive for a given area. Also has a higher rate of effective tax.

SarahMollie

Idbatterim wrote: »

Its total bull****, the ridiculous marginal rate and if you are coming back to Dublin, ridiculous rents... Yeah they will throw a few euro back a week on an average salary, lets get real though, the rental situation in Dublin is a far bigger issue to most than a few euro. Typical they wont sort out the real issue though, health, transport, housing and justice etc, just start decimating the tax base again, genius :mad: Start cutting which applies to all income and take more out of the tax net, who are already contributing far too little in direct taxes...

what are the rents and purchase prices like in comparable uk cities like glasgow, edinburgh, manchester, leeds etc? A good bit cheaper I would imagine...

You say comparable... but I think Dublin is generally a bit more affluent than the likes of Glasgow and definitely Leeds. There are more bluechip employers in Dublin than either of those cities I'd imagine.

Edinburgh is a lovely place but I believe its also very expensive, so you get what you pay for.

Manchester apparently offers good value for money.

syklops

Shelga wrote: »

Hi, I'm 28, good stable job in England on pretty good money IMO, but getting restless and bored.

From keeping an eye on property developments at home, it seems like I'd be able to move to and buy a place on my own somewhere outside Dublin, but Dublin itself is a bit grim if you're looking to buy alone.

Assuming I could move home and get a job on around €40-45k, (educated guess but could be way off the mark, I've been gone nearly 5 years now), could I afford anything other than a 1 bed apt in an OK part of Dublin, or a 2 bed in a not-so-nice area?

Anywhere round me in England that you'd actually want to live is fairly expensive too so it's not like this is a hundred times better, although there is more choice. Just trying to weigh it all up.

Not to be a whinger and come home expecting to be able to afford a 3 bed semi-d in a nice area on my own, but it's just Dublin is where all my family and friends are so can't see moving anywhere else. I expect a lot of people who moved away in the last few years are in the same boat. :-/

What's likely to happen to Dublin property prices in 2016? Any sign of supply meeting demand in the next few years? Or should I just resign myself to the idea of living in England indefinitely...

*edit* I'm aiming to have about €30k in savings by the end of the year to be used as a potential deposit, but still not optimistic that could get me anything too nice. €180k total for a property in Dublin seems to get you feck all, am I right?

I left in 2009 and had been on 45k and felt very comfortable. Came back in 2013 and was on 45k. I dont really know what hapened in those 4 years but my 45k felt like it had the value of 25k. I was really struggling to make ends meet. Its not like I went away and suddenly developed exravagant tastes or anything. If anything, I was more frugal when I came back. There was the addition of the USC but that didnt explain how I went from renting in Dublin 4, eating out a couple times a month, pub every friday night, cinema regularly etc etc, to counting my pennies on the same money just 4 years later.

I'm on a bit more now and I still don't feel as comfortable as I did back then, money wise.

My point is, 45k might have seemed like a lot when you left, but I'd be aiming for a bit more before you use it to request a mortgage.

If you bump it up to 50, you still are limited to 3.5 times your salary which comes to 175k. you will be struggling to find somewhere for that in he Greater Dublin Aea.

When I came home, it wasn't because I was restless. If anything it was the opposite, I wanted to go home.

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Edinburgh is more expensive for a given area. Also has a higher rate of effective tax.

Rent in Edinburgh is cheaper than Dublin, due to a more functioning market and consistent supply. Although it has been pushing up in recent years, a 2 bed flat would be £880/month (http://www.citylets.co.uk/research/reports/pdf/Citylets-Quarterly-report-q3-15.pdf?ref=reports) which is ~€1150, with an overall average of £940/month (~€1250) which is cheaper than most of Dublin (https://www.daft.ie/report/q3-2015-daft-rental-report.pdf).

Property is more expensive though. There was no recent property crash like in Ireland so prices have been steadily climbing. £230k is the average which equates to over 300k which is over a lot of Dublin besides SCD. The more expensive parts of Edinburgh will give Dublin a run for its money though.

Also I don't think the effective tax rate is higher. I get more net than I would on an equivalent amount in Ireland, especially because of the tax bands. It might hit some people harder in the UK but the higher rate tax band in Ireland really kills it.

SarahMollie

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Also I don't think the effective tax rate is higher. I get more net than I would on an equivalent amount in Ireland, especially because of the tax bands. It might hit some people harder in the UK but the higher rate tax band in Ireland really kills it.

Yeah I'd be amazed if someone living in Edinburgh earning the equivilant of €50k was paying more tax there than in Dublin.

I do think the next few budgets should ease the tax burden a bit (although its currently in a very high place!) where as I cant see any tax reductions in the UK.

Michael D Not Higgins

syklops wrote: »

I left in 2009 and had been on 45k and felt very comfortable. Came back in 2013 and was on 45k. I dont really know what hapened in those 4 years but my 45k felt like it had the value of 25k. I was really struggling to make ends meet. Its not like I went away and suddenly developed exravagant tastes or anything. If anything, I was more frugal when I came back. There was the addition of the USC but that didnt explain how I went from renting in Dublin 4, eating out a couple times a month, pub every friday night, cinema regularly etc etc, to counting my pennies on the same money just 4 years later.

I'm on a bit more now and I still don't feel as comfortable as I did back then, money wise.

My point is, 45k might have seemed like a lot when you left, but I'd be aiming for a bit more before you use it to request a mortgage.

If you bump it up to 50, you still are limited to 3.5 times your salary which comes to 175k. you will be struggling to find somewhere for that in he Greater Dublin Aea.

When I came home, it wasn't because I was restless. If anything it was the opposite, I wanted to go home.

I remember from when I was working in 2008-2011 in Ireland, I got 4k in increases in gross salary. At the end I was getting about the same net as what I started with.

Michael D Not Higgins

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I remember from when I was working in 2008-2011 in Ireland, I got 4k in increases in gross salary. At the end I was getting about the same net as what I started with.

income levy and the health levy came in around 2008 I think

MarkAnthony

SarahMollie wrote: »

Yeah I'd be amazed if someone living in Edinburgh earning the equivilant of €50k was paying more tax there than in Dublin.

I do think the next few budgets should ease the tax burden a bit (although its currently in a very high place!) where as I cant see any tax reductions in the UK.

Income tax rates are similar. Council tax, student loans in many cases.

Cost of living wages are lower but food etc. is also lower.

Rent - well possibly, but that's just stupid here.

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Income tax rates are similar. Council tax, student loans in many cases.

Cost of living wages are lower but food etc. is also lower.

Rent - well possibly, but that's just stupid here.

Income tax isn't similar, I net 76% of my salary in the UK compared with 71% if I was living in Ireland. Even with council tax (which includes bin collection by the way) I come out ahead.

MarkAnthony

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Income tax isn't similar, I net 76% of my salary in the UK compared with 71% if I was living in Ireland. Even with council tax (which includes bin collection by the way) I come out ahead.

I'm sorry but 5% is not a huge difference, especially with council tax factored in vs. a € 15 a month bin charge.

People make out we're paying 50% here on the entire salary and in the UK they're paying the guts of 20%. It's simply not the case. The UK and Ireland have always operated a laissez-faire tax system which has been broadly similar.

Granted living costs are lower in Scotland, VAT is higher in Ireland, council tax is paid in the UK, University fees are paid in England & Wales ect. but the bottom line is not vastly different between the two. Wages are also much higher in Dublin than the majority of the UK, with some exceptions.

Even assuming you're on 100K a year 5% means 5K a year which in the scheme of what this thread is about, buying property, is not a huge amount considering property prices are undeniably higher in Edinburgh than Dublin.

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I'm sorry but 5% is not a huge difference, especially with council tax factored in vs. a € 15 a month bin charge.

People make out we're paying 50% here on the entire salary and in the UK they're paying the guts of 20%. It's simply not the case. The UK and Ireland have always operated a laissez-faire tax system which has been broadly similar.

Granted living costs are lower in Scotland, VAT is higher in Ireland, council tax is paid in the UK, University fees are paid in England & Wales ect. but the bottom line is not vastly different between the two. Wages are also much higher in Dublin than the majority of the UK, with some exceptions.

Even assuming you're on 100K a year 5% means 5K a year which in the scheme of what this thread is about, buying property, is not a huge amount considering property prices are undeniably higher in Edinburgh than Dublin.

If I take into account what I save in rent and tax versus Dublin, it more than makes up for council tax (by a factor of 3 actually, even more if I factor in bin costs). It's cheaper to live here and the tax is less.

I've given my analysis of the differences in property markets. I don't have a more thorough breakdown of the differences in the sales market, so I can't do any direct comparisons. In fact due to the number of flats in Edinburgh, it's hard to compare at all, but the markets are not too far from each other.

Also, I should consider that I net even higher since I was using a tax calculator that doesn't factor in the reduced National Insurance rate for those paying into a pension. It could even be higher than 5% difference.