Is there any point in considering returning home to Dublin?

MarkAnthony

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

If I take into account what I save in rent and tax versus Dublin, it more than makes up for council tax (by a factor of 3 actually, even more if I factor in bin costs). It's cheaper to live here and the tax is less.

I've given my analysis of the differences in property markets. I don't have a more thorough breakdown of the differences in the sales market, so I can't do any direct comparisons. In fact due to the number of flats in Edinburgh, it's hard to compare at all, but the markets are not too far from each other.

Also, I should consider that I net even higher since I was using a tax calculator that doesn't factor in the reduced National Insurance rate for those paying into a pension. It could even be higher than 5% difference.

Even at 6,7,8%+ the semantics of similar would seem to be a mild distinction at best.

Another thing to take into account in Scotland is the flying freehold (I forget the correct term under Scots law) of apartments meaning no management fees. So I don't discount the differences, but stand by the use of the word similar. We're not comparing a high-tax egalitarian system e.g. Sweden with Ireland, were comparing two states with very similar policies.

The fact is though, as I am fond of saying, we don't actually have it as bad as people think in Dublin in terms of property prices.

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Even at 6,7,8%+ the semantics of similar would seem to be a mild distinction at best.

Another thing to take into account in Scotland is the flying freehold (I forget the correct term under Scots law) of apartments meaning no management fees. So I don't discount the differences, but stand by the use of the word similar. We're not comparing a high-tax egalitarian system e.g. Sweden with Ireland, were comparing two states with very similar policies.

The fact is though, as I am fond of saying, we don't actually have it as bad as people think in Dublin in terms of property prices.

So you wouldn't like a 5% bump in your take home salary? How about another 5% off everything you buy? It all adds up.

As an example, I just checked my electricity and gas costs versus Ireland. I'd have to spend 50% more on those bills in Ireland.

syklops

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The fact is though, as I am fond of saying, we don't actually have it as bad as people think in Dublin in terms of property prices.

We don't have it as bad in Dublin as people think, because some people have it worse? Is that what you are trying to say?

field_marshall

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Even at 6,7,8%+ the semantics of similar would seem to be a mild distinction at best.

Another thing to take into account in Scotland is the flying freehold (I forget the correct term under Scots law) of apartments meaning no management fees. So I don't discount the differences, but stand by the use of the word similar. We're not comparing a high-tax egalitarian system e.g. Sweden with Ireland, were comparing two states with very similar policies.

The fact is though, as I am fond of saying, we don't actually have it as bad as people think in Dublin in terms of property prices.

considering how high ( than the average european or global capital ) wages are in dublin , property prices are not especially expensive and rents are on the cheap side despite all the endless hysteria

MarkAnthony

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

So you wouldn't like a 5% bump in your take home salary? How about another 5% off everything you buy? It all adds up.

As an example, I just checked my electricity and gas costs versus Ireland. I'd have to spend 50% more on those bills in Ireland.

I see you feel the need to win the argument on semantics, congratualtions I concede that they are fairly similar not completely identical.

Back to the property price discussion?

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I see you feel the need to win the argument on semantics, congratualtions I concede that they are fairly similar not completely identical.

Back to the property price discussion?

Thanks for moving the goalposts. My argument all along was that the tax was not higher in the UK than Ireland, and you brought up council tax, etc. which I showed was more than made up for on a like for like basis for cost of living and other ancillary costs.

Average wages in Edinburgh are on a par with Dublin as well, so the disposable income is greater. The similar property prices show that Dublin is overpriced compared to Edinburgh.

MarkAnthony

Who were you arguing that with - I said they were similar.

Wages are not on par in all sectors, the semi skilled sector is not as well paid as they are in Dublin. Disposalable income is not at issue here, we're talking about cost of living. Disposal income is income after roof over the head etc. Property prices are higher in Edinburgh and many parts of the UK. In some area they are lower.

The point remains, and remains to be refuted that Dublin is not that expensive, dispiate the hype merchants. I would tend to disagree with the above high ranking soldiger on rents however.

(Sorry spell check gone)

Michael D Not Higgins

You said Edinburgh had a higher effective tax rate, I said lower and demonstrated it. You then said similar and have been arguing a different tangent.

What metric are you using to measure the property prices as higher in Edinburgh by the way. I'd like to see the numbers, since comparable data is hard to come by and anecdotally there are more expensive properties in Dublin at the top of the market and the entry to the market is lower in Edinburgh.

Disposable income is important as a measure of affordability for property.

MarkAnthony

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You said Edinburgh had a higher effective tax rate, I said lower and demonstrated it. You then said similar and have been arguing a different tangent.

You're right there, apologies.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

What metric are you using to measure the property prices as higher in Edinburgh by the way. I'd like to see the numbers, since comparable data is hard to come by and anecdotally there are more expensive properties in Dublin at the top of the market and the entry to the market is lower in Edinburgh.

I disagree there. Yes in Broomhouse you're going to get a 3 bedroom flat for a tenner but there is no where in Dublin, not even Oliver Bond would be that sort of bad.

When you compare like for like area they're more expensive. Example Saughton v Kilbarrack. Granted there are some mad 'high end' prices in Dublin but there are in Edinburgh too.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Disposable income is important as a measure of affordability for property.

I would say it's muddying the waters here as disposalble income is where you would see a marked difference between Scotland and Ireland.

Idbatterim

You say comparable... but I think Dublin is generally a bit more affluent than the likes of Glasgow and definitely Leeds. There are more bluechip employers in Dublin than either of those cities I'd imagine.

Edinburgh is a lovely place but I believe its also very expensive, so you get what you pay for.

Manchester apparently offers good value for money.

I agree, I have been in all of those cities fairly recently, I would take Dublin over all of them, but they they arent a million miles apart. Edinburgh is the one I would put at very similar to dublin in certain ways...

One poster mentioned rents there in one area are higher than dublin, I find that very hard to believe..

allibastor

Just my input here.

A good friend of mine bought a house in Limerick from the UK. He has a decent job there and said getting a mortgage was not an issue from there. The biggest draw he had was that house prices and rents are rising so the bank wont have a big issue selling on.

Would you try a mortgage from the UK with your current role?

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I disagree there. Yes in Broomhouse you're going to get a 3 bedroom flat for a tenner but there is no where in Dublin, not even Oliver Bond would be that sort of bad.

When you compare like for like area they're more expensive. Example Saughton v Kilbarrack. Granted there are some mad 'high end' prices in Dublin but there are in Edinburgh too.

Discounting anything mad like Broomhouse, I was thinking more like Leith.

I was hoping you had some price per square metre data. I can't find anything reliable. I did find something that suggested £2200 in Edinburgh as an average which is comparable to Dublin.

Another one I did was see what was available in Dublin v Edinburgh at the low end of the market. I chose £150k min one bed (rules out sites and parking spots, etc) and €200k min one bed on zoopla and daft respectively.

Edinburgh has 306 and Dublin has 583 (roughly comparable since Dublin's about twice as big as Edinburgh. Then bring it to £110k and €150 and we're at 111 v 167. Now the Edinburgh listings have some funny things like part ownership schemes at the lowest levels (e.g. 25% ownership of a flat for 40k), so knock maybe 10% out, 100 v 167. Narrower gap at the lowest level.

Now let's look at the top of the market. £300k+ v €400k+. Edinburgh 296, Dublin 1011. That's over 3 times as much, completely out of proportion with the population difference.

Michael D Not Higgins

To finish off, there's 4 times as much in Dublin than Edinburgh in the remaining bracket, £150k-300k/€200k-400k. ~1600 to ~400. Now I'm not sure if that's indicative of the supply in the market seasonally but they talk about restricted supply in Dublin. These numbers would suggest that there's fewer houses per capita available in Edinburgh. This doesn't take into account the high level of renting in Edinburgh though.

MarkAnthony

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Discounting anything mad like Broomhouse, I was thinking more like Leith.

I was hoping you had some price per square metre data. I can't find anything reliable. I did find something that suggested £2200 in Edinburgh as an average which is comparable to Dublin.

Another one I did was see what was available in Dublin v Edinburgh at the low end of the market. I chose £150k min one bed (rules out sites and parking spots, etc) and €200k min one bed on zoopla and daft respectively.

Edinburgh has 306 and Dublin has 583 (roughly comparable since Dublin's about twice as big as Edinburgh. Then bring it to £110k and €150 and we're at 111 v 167. Now the Edinburgh listings have some funny things like part ownership schemes at the lowest levels (e.g. 25% ownership of a flat for 40k), so knock maybe 10% out, 100 v 167. Narrower gap at the lowest level.

Now let's look at the top of the market. £300k+ v €400k+. Edinburgh 296, Dublin 1011. That's over 3 times as much, completely out of proportion with the population difference.

Ah fond memories of Leith - before it was done up. Almost a mile of hookers along the road as you drove is :pac:

syklops

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Discounting anything mad like Broomhouse, I was thinking more like Leith.

I was hoping you had some price per square metre data. I can't find anything reliable. I did find something that suggested £2200 in Edinburgh as an average which is comparable to Dublin.

Another one I did was see what was available in Dublin v Edinburgh at the low end of the market. I chose £150k min one bed (rules out sites and parking spots, etc) and €200k min one bed on zoopla and daft respectively.

Edinburgh has 306 and Dublin has 583 (roughly comparable since Dublin's about twice as big as Edinburgh. Then bring it to £110k and €150 and we're at 111 v 167. Now the Edinburgh listings have some funny things like part ownership schemes at the lowest levels (e.g. 25% ownership of a flat for 40k), so knock maybe 10% out, 100 v 167. Narrower gap at the lowest level.

Now let's look at the top of the market. £300k+ v €400k+. Edinburgh 296, Dublin 1011. That's over 3 times as much, completely out of proportion with the population difference.

Im not really sure what the two of you are talking about but I think the point you are trying to make is that Dublin doesn't just have a shortage of nice places, it has a shortage of everything. The property market is so poor that even the slums are sought after and so rents are starting at 800+ for a shoebox on the corner of Moore Street. And by shoebox, I mean actual shoeboxes. With Clarkes logos on the side.

Michael D Not Higgins

syklops wrote: »

Im not really sure what the two of you are talking about but I think the point you are trying to make is that Dublin doesn't just have a shortage of nice places, it has a shortage of everything. The property market is so poor that even the slums are sought after and so rents are starting at 800+ for a shoebox on the corner of Moore Street. And by shoebox, I mean actual shoeboxes. With Clarkes logos on the side.

Hmm not even, just checked rental accommodation and there's ~1500 in Dublin listed v ~700 in Edinburgh, again proportional to the population.

Maybe it's just mass hysteria in Ireland for property.

Michael D Not Higgins

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Ah fond memories of Leith - before it was done up. Almost a mile of hookers along the road as you drove is :pac:

Yeah they've been slowly gentrifying the area and pushing the hookers further away from the centre of Leith. There's some nice places there. It's come a long way from Trainspotting.

Shelga

Why the diversion into talking about Edinburgh? :pac:

Birmingham is the nearest big city to me but in my opinion is a total hole compared to Dublin, so the lower rents and mortgages aren't really such a draw. A place is only good value if you actually enjoy living there, IMO. I'd probably look to buy in one of the nicer towns maybe 20 miles from Birmingham.

I've briefly looked into buying in Dublin while living in England, as it's the only place I'll always have ties to, but just think it would be too messy and don't you need a massive deposit for buy to let properties? Also I'm only beginning the property-buying-investigation and am not in any rush. It's a suggestion worth looking into though, thanks

I find numbeo.com a good website when comparing cost of living between two cities. Seems to be fairly accurate in my experience.

syklops

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Hmm not even, just checked rental accommodation and there's ~1500 in Dublin listed v ~700 in Edinburgh, again proportional to the population.

Maybe it's just mass hysteria in Ireland for property.

1500 in dublin of what?

When I was looking for somewhere to live 22 months ago, a shortage of accomodation certainly wasnt hysteria on my part.

Michael D Not Higgins

syklops wrote: »

1500 in dublin of what?

When I was looking for somewhere to live 22 months ago, a shortage of accomodation certainly wasnt hysteria on my part.

1500 properties are listed for Dublin for rent on daft.

If that's hiding too much, I've also filtered for 1 and 2 beds (more typical for renting), and got 1033 in Dublin and 461 in Edinburgh, again proportional to the population.

No one here is complaining of a restriction in rental supply.

MarkAnthony

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Hmm not even, just checked rental accommodation and there's ~1500 in Dublin listed v ~700 in Edinburgh, again proportional to the population.

Maybe it's just mass hysteria in Ireland for property.

Rents were no where near the Dublin crazy when I lived there but this was some years ago.