Carlow Town poor planning

Laois_Man

Regarding TK Maxx. If this makes sense to you, then you're cleverer than me

ABP's decision to REFUSE the permission was made "having regard to the nature and extent of the proposed development, its location at a remove from the town centre outside of the Carlow Inner Relief Road and its lack of connectivity/pedestrian linkages to the town centre".

The Board is "not satisfied, notwithstanding the town centre zoning of the site, that the proposed development would not have a detrimental impact on the vitality and viability of Carlow Town centre".

They added that it "would not create an overly strong counter attraction to the town centre in terms of retail shopping, and considered, therefore, that the proposed development would be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area".

Regarding Shamrock Plaza, it's a building full of employment in Carlow town and is badly needed. Between the businesses on the ground floor, UPMC Whitfield on the first floor, Unum employing 170 people on floors 2, 3 and 4......with medical centre, solicitor and apartments on the other wing, Carlow should have a few more places like it. The area is an absolute hole of a kip and that building is the exception which is why it sticks out.

Be well and win

I like the Shamrock Plaza, it's a bit of modernity and as a town centre employer, gives a bit of a boost to the surrounding area. It'll be interesting to see what Carpenters do for the funeral home but it's a shame the other side is still an eyesore, although the council have put some signs up on the houses behind it, wondering if they are moving to a compulsory purchase order?

As for TK Maxx, refusal reason is very inconsistant given the same issue exists at the Fairgreen. I wonder given the current circumstances if they will appeal?

Nokia6230i

Laois_Man wrote: »

Regarding TK Maxx. If this makes sense to you, then you're cleverer than me



Regarding Shamrock Plaza, it's a building full of employment in Carlow town and is badly needed. Between the businesses on the ground floor, UPMC Whitfield on the first floor, Unum employing 170 people on floors 2, 3 and 4......with medical centre, solicitor and apartments on the other wing, Carlow should have a few more places like it. The area is an absolute hole of a kip and that building is the exception which is why it sticks out.

There are opportunities; look @ the Waterfront; it's a similar building to Shamrock Plaza apart from the 1200 a month 2 Bed Apts.; it currently houses Quinn-Reddin/Reddan (sp?), Eist & I think there's a third employer also on the 1st Floor where all three share office space.

Upstairs on Second Floor it's Turas Nua, a DEASP collaboration with FRS Recruitment Irl/Working Links UK and that takes up a full floor in itself.

Bottom or ground floor is empty though and has huge frontage in terms of display & the other wing is completely empty; on the other side again it's St. Clares Hospitality Kitchen; no idea of the nominal rent they're paying but it's far less than market rates; could it take a restaurant or is it simply in wrong area?

Thinking of Boardwalk Cafe within spitting distance of it which is prepped incl. seating arrangments, place settings but sitting idle now a number of years in total; the refurb was stop start.

byhookorbycrook

lausp wrote: »

I think ideally there should be some effort to pedestrianise the entirety of Tullow Street. Currently with parking allowed on one side, it's too narrow anyway.

There then should be some sort of covering over the street from the potatoe market to Dublin street section. This would allow a similar ambience to Kieran street in Kilkenny where coffee shops and cafes have outdoor seating and people can wander through without worrying about traffic.

This would effectively close off those streets for people with mobility issues.

Agent Coulson

Developer ‘has given up on Carlow’ after TK Maxx refusal

A DEVELOPER admits he has “given up on Carlow” following the crushing decision by An Board Pleanála this week to refuse planning permission to retail giant TK Maxx.

Gwen Thomas of Thompson Holdings Limited told The Nationalist yesterday that the decision by the planning authority not to allow a 4,000 square foot store ‒ TK Maxx and HomeSense ‒ at his site in Carlow Retail Park would ultimately “cost the town a lot of money”.

“My reaction is I’m going to give up on Carlow … it’s been 23 years of struggling to get something on that site and now I’m just going to let it go grow weeds,” he stated.

“People don’t want anything outside of Tullow Street, so that ends that; the contract with TK Maxx is finished, it’s gone now,” Mr Thomas lamented.

“National policy is to protect town centres and I’m all for that, but no modern bricks and mortar major retailer can operate at up to 2,000 sq feet and that’s all that’s available in town centres,” he added.

A contract between Mr Thomas’s company Thompson Holdings Limited and TK Maxx had been signed in March 2018, with TK Maxx proposing to anchor a 4,000 sq ft store employing up to 100 people, subject to planning permission. The intention was that the store would open in 2020, making it only the third HomeSense outlet in Ireland, with footfall expected from Kilkenny, Newbridge and Naas into Carlow. It was also expected to provide employment for up to 60 people during the construction phase.

Carlow County Council granted planning permission for the development in September 2019, however, within weeks, the matter was appealed to An Board Pleanála by rivals Fairgreen Shopping Centre.

The Board Pleanála decision this week cited the proposed development’s location away from the town centre and its lack of connectivity to the town centre as the reasons behind the refusal.

Thompson Holdings Limited had also appealed one of the conditions of Carlow County Council’s decision to An Board Pleanála, which had restricted half of the development to ‘bulky goods’.

Surprisingly, Mr Thomas has not yet received a copy of the An Board Pleanála decision.

“My planner received a letter to say it had been refused, but I have not seen the planner’s report. The councillors have received a copy, but I haven’t, so it’s difficult to comment fully having not seen the report,” he added.

Mr Thomas was critical of the long delays in the planning process, which impact enormously on attracting business.

“There are only two major retailers in Ireland now investing in bricks and mortar, TK Maxx and Penneys; everyone else is going online, so the opportunity for Carlow and TK Maxx is definitely gone now,” he concluded.

https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2020/05/05/developer-has-given-up-on-carlow-after-tk-maxx-refusal/#.XrMrT2N4XDt

SligoBrewer

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

This would effectively close off those streets for people with mobility issues.

I couldn't disagree more. The footpaths on the 2 way side of Tullow Street are already overtaken with cars squeezing by and the on the one way side, the parking isn't disabled parking.

99% of the people driving down Tullow St are just using it as a shortcut to the detriment of the businesses on the street. I think people with mobility issues would appreciate the space that comes with the main street of the town being car free.

We'd be better off giving over more space at the Potato Market to pedestrians, and the success of the Farmers' Market has proven that there's something there that deserves proper space in the middle of the town. This is the stuff that Carlow should be building around, homegrown and local produce that keeps money circulating within the town and locality. Something with a real USP compared to utter nonsense like multinational discounters you can get in Newbridge or Kilkenny, like TK Maxx.

carlaboi

I thought Carlow County Council had a plan that was to pedestrianise much of Tullow st and Haymarket, my carlow it was called? Saw it last year I think but have heard nothing since. The Council are totally to blame for the current layout of the town but this has been going on for years all around Ireland. Walking down Tullow st and Dublin St now is like a ghost town. The shop units are too small for the big name shops that Carlow needs.

Fiatx19

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Developer ‘has given up on Carlow’ after TK Maxx refusal



https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2020/05/05/developer-has-given-up-on-carlow-after-tk-maxx-refusal/#.XrMrT2N4XDt

In fairness to the fairgreen area it is in the town centre. TK Maxx will probably move out to Dunnes on the Sleaty Road and Laois Co Council will get the rates. The proposed site was within walking distance of Tullow Street. There needs to be a plan to create a shopping `centre` in the heart of Carlow. Unfortunately we don't seem to have a planning department in carlow. What happened the plan to knock the houses on barrack Street and create a walkway from Dublin Street to the fairgreen?

Agent Coulson

So Fairgreen have been given permission from An Bord Pleanala to knock down the existing building they wanted to knock down and build a retail unit big enough to house TK Max which they are looking to get in there according to the front page of The Nationalist.


Interesting.

radharc

Consultation has opened on the latest plan for the town: Carlow 2040.

I know the town has had many plans at this stage, none of which came to fruition, but there is a lot to like in this plan. Submissions are open for another week, it appears there has only been one submission so far.

Edit: It's available on consult.carlow.ie

Grassy Knoll

Where is the regeneration plan for Carlow town these days?

Grassy Knoll

as an adjunct to my earlier post I see 100 new jobs in MSD. However, how many of these will move or even live here? A town needs to have an anchor to attract folks to live there, particularly more skilled or educated ones who have travelled widely and with their expectations are unlikely to settle for what Carlow has to currently offer. Often some of these better paid folks move to Kilkenny or Kildare and just commute down on the motorway. The leakage of these better paid residents is visible from the type and level,of retail available in Carlow vs elsewhere. People on minimum wage or more modest incomes will not sustain much beyond fast food joints …

To be fair to some of the leadership in CW coco they are trying to move things on a piece. From what I see, the myopic, opportunist elected members often are a handbrake on progress and are led by objectors or the lowest common denominator …. The Barrow blue way is a case in point … Seperately, the issue of Graiguecullen needs to be revisited medium to long term - but that’s another days work …

Be well and win

It goes both ways though, you need only look at the amount of cars heading for Dublin every morning, or down to KK or Waterford.

CraftBeer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119511169#Comment_119511169

Carlow has much more to offer than Kilkenny on a practical level, but there's a snob inside us all and people will happily fork out an extra 200k to live in a similar sized house in Kilkenny town vs Carlow. The seven or eight retail parks in the town are fantastic vs trying to navigate the clogged Kilkenny streets on a Saturday afternoon with its single retail park. The educational facilities at all levels are better in Carlow. The traffic is better in Carlow town. These are practical, everyday things that i appreciate about living here vs Kilkenny, or Dublin.

The census has shown that the population growth of Kilkenny has slowed compared to the national average. They have priced themselves out of the market for many first time buyers, and their highfalutin council has focused too much on hotels and tourism and too little on retail. Up until a couple of years ago they didn't even have a decent Cinema in Kk. They won't even let Tesco into the town.

Sure, Kilkenny is far more pleasing on the eye compared to hollowed out Carlow town centre, but the donut effect does have a lot of practical benefits for ordinary folks who just want the modern conveniences on their doorstep. I'll bet Argos in Carlow gets more footfall than the Butler gallery in Kilkenny 😁

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119539173#Comment_119539173

I live in Kilkenny, I love Carlow and worked there too. But there is simply no comparison between the two. Carlow town centre feels dead by comparison, absolutely nothing going on. I considered buying a house in either but settled on Kilkenny even though I could get far far better value in Carlow. But as a work colleague from Wexford at the time asked me “do you WANT to live in Carlow”? Maybe there is a silly snob value at play but there’s some lovely fancy areas in Carlow I wouldn’t mind living in like Oakpark or the KK road.

Kilkenny is bad for traffic but equally I hate the traffic in Carlow it’s worse in some ways as there’s no proper ring road at all. Obrien/Tullow N80 road is constantly clogged any time of the day

CraftBeer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119545522#Comment_119545522

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119545522#Comment_119545522

I lived in Kilkenny. I know the town well enough. I did love the pubs, eating out was so-so, but it's not good for shopping. It's a nightmare for parking. It's expensive. My wife has friends living in Kilkenny who come up here to shop. Ne'er a decent/convenient fish shop or bakery in the town, at least when I lived there.

Personally speaking, we have a slighly better quality of life in Carlow than Kilkenny. Our money goes further, everything is more convenient, better house, more retail options, better neighbours now (we got out of a boom time estate in KK). Overall it has been a good move.

I won't lose much sleep over the poor look of Carlow town centre. Whether it's junkies on display on Tullow street or ceramics on display in the Kilkenny design gallery, neither of these things has any actual impact on most peoples everyday lives because most of us live outside town centres.

Carlow is thriving, people are just looking in the wrong place for the footfall. It's not in the traditional town centre.

Perhaps your friend should have asked a different question: Do you WANT to have your mortgage paid off years earlier?

Grassy Knoll

https://urban-agency.com/walshes-yard

proposed development for Kennedy avenue… certainly a striking design by a big name architecture firm …

Nokia6230i

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288662#Comment_121288662

Yes but will it ever proceed? I mean the demand for student accommodation is there but planning permission was granted to Carlow Estates for the site on 5th of March 2019.....

But as a development, the concept looks magnificent in design terms; seems quite high, four storeys in comparison to surrounding premises & residences but permission was granted so....

Grassy Knoll

imdidnt realise,it was that long since PP was granted. Certainly if the owners of the site are who I think they are financing won’t be an issue. Any jobs they have done about the town have always been a cut above the average. Re accommodation there is always an upgrade in stock, what was good 10,or 15 years ago moves on I suppose…

lausp

Have to laugh at some of the comments about Kilkenny.

Trying to compare both is just delusional. It's easy to argue that it's a "snob" thing but it's just the truth.

Kilkenny is leagues better than Carlow and possibly one of the nicest places to live in the country.

Saying the traffic is better in Carlow is hilarious, have you ever tried to get from Green lane to the college between 5-6 in the last year? Or even out the Wexford road? New traffic lights all over the place that don't prioritise throughput through the town, clogging up the entire place.

Carlow certainly has better shopping than Kilkenny but that is partly due to less restrictive planning and laois co co allowing big development just over the border presumably to get in on some precious rate income. I'm not sure the American style retail parks that require dependency on cars are something to be overly celebrated though.

Kilkenny is certainly more expensive but the reason for that is people actually want to live there. It's on another level for pubs, restaurants and entertainment than Carlow.

Just look at how many hotels are in the centre of Carlow town Vs Kilkenny, and then look at the standard of hotel in both.

Carlow has its positives but let's not let bias get in the way of reality.

I'll happily pay a couple of euros to park in Kilkenny every time and enjoy strolling around the thriving city centre, castle grounds and many festivals, restaurants and pubs, instead of looking at the many betting shops, pharmacies, discount shops, hairdressers and boarded up vacant units that occupy much of Carlow town centre.

road_high

Carlow is better for “everyday” shopping in my opinion - stuff like groceries, household, DIY, larger Penneys etc

Kilkenny has been very restrictive in planning it’s fair to say- Carlow it seems is more market driven and stores seem to be allowed set up where they want to - and sell what they want. Out of town retail in Kilkenny is actually restricted in what they’re allowed sell. A store selling fashion or food would unlikely get planning permission in a Kilkenny retail park- bulky goods only as far as i know

road_high

Also the Laois thing defo a factor. The large retail park with dunnes stores etc in graiguecullen though very convenient, would never happen in Kilkenny.

Dunnes stores should be located in the town centre or close to it at least. The dynamic would be quite different had that been the case I think. It’s a huge draw of a store

Agent Coulson

The Carlow Council only have themselves to blame for it being on the Laois side of the river and the rates going to the Laois County Council.

Be well and win

Naas town centre was dying when Tesco's moved out towards Sallins, now that Dunnes have moved into the old Superquinn site in the town centre, it's brought a bit of life back to it

Spark Plug

Dunnes in Graiguecullen is very handy for parking and pulls a cohort of business from the Northern end of Kilkenny (Castlecomer)

Grassy Knoll

Agree the planning or lack of in Carlow has ruined the town centre. Not uncommon in several provincial towns to be fair, but this donut effect is well known and understood. I suppose brownfield development is always less attractive and can mean planning issues etc. I agree no comparison between KK and CW town centres, chalk and cheese, in the last 30 years both have gone in differing directions.

Separately a county boundary extension westward of the town is a no brainier and was been mooted before as part of a wider package involving Waterford city and the ferryback piece in south KK, Drogheda and a few other places.Rubbish like GAA allegiances plays a factor, these can be solved, but should not be one of the causes of holding up development.

CraftBeer

KK is a dead town, propped up by tourism and stag parties, whose population age is higher than the national average. No population growth in six years. A fake city smaller than Carlow town, with housing estates that cost 750k to live in. Priced itself out of anyone wanting to move there now. Nice to stroll around and enjoy the sights and sounds of the Hebron road or wetlands though. Ye'er right, Carlow doesn't have anything to compare to them beauties. Even my wife says she doesn't see half the number of "indigenous ethnic minority" patients here in Carlow vs when she worked in Kilkenny. First time we went out for a drink there was a punch up in Billy Byrnes 😂 Haven't witnessed a fight yet in Carlow.

We'll just have to put up with our betting shops, pharmacies, boarded up shops, two third level colleges, multiple retail parks, our 18 million euro theatre, our better restaurants and our cheaper pints. While the KK hippies were protesting a new bridge, Carlow has been outgrowing ye.

Nokia6230i

Remember our various Cllrs. stances on this issue at the time when it comes to next May; particularly the ones in the Tullow LEA/MD https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2023/11/29/councils-legal-action-has-cost-300-jobs-in-tullow-says-developer/?fbclid=IwAR0B5Lb9YOjUi8Gaf2sEAgA54G-D-yjvH2oV9TbIe8vsDEIG6rVSLTmYJHs

lausp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121415361#Comment_121415361

Lots to unpack here from what seems to be a somewhat bitter and bizarrely reasoned argument. I don't think anyone said Carlow was bad, so not sure where the big chip on the shoulder is coming from.

I'm not sure how you could argue that kk is "dead". The population grew 12% from 2016 to 2022.

The average age is less than one year above average for the country, do you have a problem with older people or what is the point of that statement?

"A fake city smaller than Carlow" - absolutely, Carlow is now enjoying larger population than Kilkenny, you won't hear me disputing that. I don't give a toss about the city thing either.

There are very few housing estates where its 750k for a house, but they do exist. It's called supply and demand though, last time I checked no one forces you to buy one of those, or do you just not like wealthy people?

On your other comment.. am I to take it you have a problem with ethnic minorities also, or is it just them having access to healthcare? Or perhaps accessing healthcare in the hospital that serves both counties?

Strange that you haven't witnessed any fights in Carlow, I've observed them during the day while walking around with my young kids.

If the measure of quality of life these days is based on out of town retail parks, population growth, a lack of, or lack of tolerance for diversity and availability of cheap pints then I feel sorry for those that think this way.

Is it just the older people, ethnic minorities, the wealthy, and those that care about the development and history of the place they live in that you don't like, or did you forget anyone?

I'm glad you moved to Carlow and like it, because we don't want those attitudes here.

Oh, if you could point me in the direction of those better restaurants too I'd appreciate it.

road_high

Why would property prices be much higher in a dead town that nobody wants to live in? They’d be collapsing and people would be snapping up cheap kk homes. Absolutely not yeh case. I knew people that had to move to Carlow and outer small towns to get something affordable. Expensive property is always the hallmark of a place people want to live in and goes a long way to explain Kilkenny low population growth- there’s literally been nowhere to live for people. Kilkenny isnt that attractive for migrants as there’s far cheaper places. I’d actually be very glad if the rest of the country was at this rate as we simply do not have the capacity to deal with this level. It’s next to impossible rent a place. The reason you’ve very expensive new homes in kk is because people want to live there and pay that premium. Also demographics follow this as it’s not the better off and older demographic driving birth rates. You need only a quick walk around Carlow during the day. The unemployment rate is traditionally double Kilkenny’s and CSO stats i read before had well over 50% more jobs/employment based in Kilkenny (vaguely remember something like 7,500 daytime jobs vs 12,500 or so). There’s a lot more white collar office type jobs in kk that wouldn’t be in Carlow.

When I was looking to buy first time I looked at both. Could get a LOT more in Carlow but when it came to it Kilkenny was a no brainer even though I do like Carlow. By Irish standards it’s a good town. Even work colleagues talked me out of it and I’m glad they did.

As for the restaurants what great ones are in Carlow? Cafe 500 is great but they’re actually opening in Kilkenny soon. There’s one middle of the road decent hotel. Kilkenny has problems but not sure I’d swap them for Carlow’s

contrary_devil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436822#Comment_121436822

Am I correct in thinking that you are not happy with Carlow CC taking the action they did?

While the outcome of the court case cannot be argued with, in my opinion The Nationalist has a history of sensationalist headlines and they will print anything that they think will sell papers or get them click, it has become a rag akin to the traditional red top rags.