3 best reasons for atheism?

the_pen_turner

hi there

im atheist and not afraid to say it.

my problem is that people don't believe me or think im open to being lectured on their religion

I try not to argue and try to calmly say these are my beliefs and I don't knock your beliefs

they always end up looking for reasons why I believe what I believe or don't in this case

im sick of it now.
if you had to have 3 points only
what clear points would you make

Kiwi in IE

There is no evidence what so ever for the existence of a God

I don't have to waste my life engaging in silly, ritualistic behaviours in order to please/placate the god for whose existence there is no proof

Religion is geographical and yet every religion thinks theirs is the right one. Also leads to prejudice based on same,the Christian God loves Christians who historically originated from certain geographical areas, but he is sending most of India, Pakistan, China etc to hell because they are predominantly the wrong religion, due to the location of their birth which he is supposedly responsible for!

endacl

the_pen_turner wrote: »

if you had to have 3 points only
what clear points would you make

1. I respect your right to believe whatever you want.
2. You respect mine, to not believe.
3. I won't impose my belief on you. You don't impose yours on me.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Duke O Smiley

endacl wrote: »

1. I respect your right to believe whatever you want.
2. You respect mine, to not believe.
3. I won't impose my belief on you. You don't impose yours on me.

And they all lived happily ever after.

This.

My best friend, and many of my friends are atheist. By following these three simple steps, we get on just fine

Its as simple as that

the_pen_turner

endacl wrote: »

1. I respect your right to believe whatever you want.
2. You respect mine, to not believe.
3. I won't impose my belief on you. You don't impose yours on me.

And they all lived happily ever after.

you must live in an ideal world
my experience is everything is great until you get to no 2 and 3.
strangely they don't seem to see the hypocrisy in believing in no 1 but not in 2 and 3

Disgruntled Badger

Hmm

Orion

the_pen_turner wrote: »

you must live in an ideal world
my experience is everything is great until you get to no 2 and 3.
strangely they don't seem to see the hypocrisy in believing in no 1 but not in 2 and 3

But at that point you stop arguing because you're dealing with assholes.

Disgruntled Badger

I'm trying to work out why people might doubt your sincerity? why also is it important that people believe you? You don't believe in God. No sweat. Are you maybe not sure. Have you considered agnosticism to start before working your way up to pure atheist? All joking aside, You don't need to be believed that you don't believe. (I should get that put on a tee-shirt) ;-)

the_pen_turner

Orion wrote: »

But at that point you stop arguing because you're dealing with assholes.

unfortunately I work with some , are related to some , friends of friends etc .
so I cant just say go away


I would like 3 reasons that are easy to put across and not open to too much debate

magicbastarder

the_pen_turner wrote: »

if you had to have 3 points only
what clear points would you make

king kong vs. godzilla? godzilla.
if you can't be with the one you love, then love the one you're with.
kind of blue.

i think that covers most bases.

Lingua Franca

I think you're a bit weird
You think I'm a bit weird
F*ck it, what's the craic?

Absolam

Just go for one; You're not my ma, you can't tell me what to do!

Doesn't work so well on your ma though, in fairness.

pauldla

It might help your case if you can develop a better idea of why you are an atheist, OP. It'll help you to be more confident in your exchanges and firmer in your answers, and hopefully without getting in to an argument. You don't have to do that here if you don't want to, but if you do you'll find a lot of support from your fellows.

Absolam

Surely the only reason why one should be an atheist is there is no good enough reason why one would not be?

Bongalongherb

the_pen_turner wrote: »

hi there

im atheist and not afraid to say it.

my problem is that people don't believe me or think im open to being lectured on their religion

I try not to argue and try to calmly say these are my beliefs and I don't knock your beliefs

they always end up looking for reasons why I believe what I believe or don't in this case

im sick of it now.
if you had to have 3 points only
what clear points would you make

I have only one point in regards to this. We are spirits in a material world.

No God substance at all, just spirits of electrical energy in a material world. The little feller below explains it all...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzqY0TzXM4Y

pauldla

Absolam wrote: »

Surely the only reason why one should be an atheist is there is no good enough reason why one would not be?

Well I'd be interested to get an idea of where the OP is coming from; if help is needed in constructing a defence (which is what I gather the OP is asking for), then it might be useful to get an idea of where his or her head is at.

Absolam

pauldla wrote: »

Well I'd be interested to get an idea of where the OP is coming from; if help is needed in constructing a defence (which is what I gather the OP is asking for), then it might be useful to get an idea of where his or her head is at.

Well, since the question put is why I believe what I believe or don't in this case, is the answer not simply no one has yet provided a good enough reason to believe otherwise?

pauldla

Absolam wrote: »

Well, since the question put is why I believe what I believe or don't in this case, is the answer not simply no one has yet provided a good enough reason to believe otherwise?

I will not know the OP's answer until it is provided by the OP, surely...?

Absolam

pauldla wrote: »

I will not know the OP's answer until it is provided by the OP, surely...?

Ah... didn't know we were waiting on him to answer his own question

In the meantime, in your opinion, is there a better reason for one not to believe in a deity than that no one has yet provided a good enough reason to believe in one? More for the sake of discussion than particularly providing the OP with an answer... since I doubt those who don't believe him are likely to be swayed by any answer, and those who think he's open to being lectured on their religion are likely to take any answer as an opportunity to do so.

pauldla

Absolam wrote: »

Ah... didn't know we were waiting on him to answer his own question

In the meantime, in your opinion, is there a better reason for one not to believe in a deity than that no one has yet provided a good enough reason to believe in one? More for the sake of discussion than particularly providing the OP with an answer... since I doubt those who don't believe him are likely to be swayed by any answer, and those who think he's open to being lectured on their religion are likely to take any answer as an opportunity to do so.

I'm sorry if I have misread the OP's intention; I thought that if he shared some of his ideas with A&A, the good people here might help him to put together a defence that could be useful when dealing with those pushier friends and co-workers who seem to be blighting him on the issue. No doubt I have missed my mark, and my question, as you indicate, is redundant.

As for your question, I can only respond with an 'I don't know'; the best reason I can think of for unbelief being somewhat terse and unpoetic ('It's all a load of bollox').

looksee

*shrug*
'Suit yourself'.

mickrock

the_pen_turner wrote: »

they always end up looking for reasons why I believe what I believe or don't in this case

Just tell them that you've pondered the universe/nature and you believe it to be essentially blind and dumb.

Everything is the product of mindless material mechanisms.

Regarding proof for the above claims, it's probably best to keep quiet.

nozzferrahhtoo

the_pen_turner wrote: »

im atheist and not afraid to say it.

I am not afraid to say it either. I simply do not say it. It is not a term I use to describe myself or identify myself. I have no use for the word. If other people want to call me "atheist" however I have no issue with that.

My world view is simple enough. I simply do not subscribe to claims that are made without any argument, evidence, data or reasoning to support them.

Now GIVEN the claim that a non-human intelligent and intentional agent is responsible for the creation and/or ongoing maintenance of our universe is unsubstantiated in even the smallest way.... devoid of any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning..... I simply do not subscribe to the claim.

So atheism is not my world view so much as a consequence of my world view.

If your "friends" (though I hesitate to call them that if they are giving you undue jip over this) or family require any more explanation that that.... then I honestly have no idea what they require. At that point, when it is put that plainly and simply, if they do not get it then they are either not capable of it, not willing to, or both.

Orion

Three options then:

1. If they ask you why you don't believe turn it around and ask them why they do. If they say is because the bible says so remind them that the bible is the claim not the proof. If they say it's because they have faith then tell them you have science.
2. Tell them it's because there is no demonstrable proof that anything they claim is not demonstrably true and in most cases impossible according to natural laws of physics. Add in that the bible is full of contradictions and conflicts. Say that even if god existed he's such a malicious, petulant, murderer that you wouldn't want to follow him anyway.
3. This would be my default position - tell them it's none of their business. If they persist repeat that.

PopePalpatine

mickrock wrote: »

Just tell them that you've pondered the universe/nature and you believe it to be essentially blind and dumb.

Everything is the product of mindless material mechanisms.

Regarding proof for the above claims, it's probably best to keep quiet.

To paraphrase Shrek, "this is the part where mickrock runs away."

actuallylike

3 best reasons? Well that's a bit different then to why you're an atheist. If you're looking for what is the best things about not believing in God, mine are...

1) No Spiritual Judgement

All the hellfire, end of days judgement, torture that might be coming your way. All gone. There will be no judgement towards you for fickle, antiquated rules. You set your own morals and live by them and you will only be judged by your fellow man. In fact, there will be no judgement towards anyone, not just you. Something comforting believing that billions of poeople won't suffer for eternity for the simple sin of being born into the wrong culture and therefore worshipping a false god. There's also something comforting that there is no evil plan that lets rapists go unpunished, rape victims go unheard and let all the illnesses in this world spread, destroying lives.

2) Fear turns to acceptance, which turns to appreciation of life

No wondering, no fear of the unknown. When you realise that there is no afterlife it's tough (at least it was for me) to digest. All friends, family, me, doomed to 80ish years on this rock. But then that's comforting. this is it, this is all we've got. Use it and enjoy it, knowing that it will end. Some of the best things in life come from the knowledge that they will end, and not continue. So jump on in, the water's warm.

3) No limits to thought

The God of the Gaps argument puts a stop on any chance of discovery. We're made to explore, whether that's mentally or physically. If you get to a point in a thought that stops because god (and believe me, it's always a grinding halt), you're denying yourself the chance to explore. I am sure I will die not knowing why we're here. But it's comforting knowing the fact that I can keep trying and advance my knowledge as much as I can in my time. And maybe relay that onto others and learn from them. The second you put god into it, your brain stops and tries to rewire itself to accept this illogical answer. You're denying yourself the chance of new discoveries byt simply sitting back and saying "Well great, thank god I don't have to think about that anymore"

The Bishop Basher

actuallylike wrote: »

3 best reasons? Well that's a bit different then to why you're an atheist. If you're looking for what is the best things about not believing in God, mine are...

1) No Spiritual Judgement

All the hellfire, end of days judgement, torture that might be coming your way. All gone. There will be no judgement towards you for fickle, antiquated rules. You set your own morals and live by them and you will only be judged by your fellow man. In fact, there will be no judgement towards anyone, not just you. Something comforting believing that billions of poeople won't suffer for eternity for the simple sin of being born into the wrong culture and therefore worshipping a false god. There's also something comforting that there is no evil plan that lets rapists go unpunished, rape victims go unheard and let all the illnesses in this world spread, destroying lives.

2) Fear turns to acceptance, which turns to appreciation of life

No wondering, no fear of the unknown. When you realise that there is no afterlife it's tough (at least it was for me) to digest. All friends, family, me, doomed to 80ish years on this rock. But then that's comforting. this is it, this is all we've got. Use it and enjoy it, knowing that it will end. Some of the best things in life come from the knowledge that they will end, and not continue. So jump on in, the water's warm.

3) No limits to thought

The God of the Gaps argument puts a stop on any chance of discovery. We're made to explore, whether that's mentally or physically. If you get to a point in a thought that stops because god (and believe me, it's always a grinding halt), you're denying yourself the chance to explore. I am sure I will die not knowing why we're here. But it's comforting knowing the fact that I can keep trying and advance my knowledge as much as I can in my time. And maybe relay that onto others and learn from them. The second you put god into it, your brain stops and tries to rewire itself to accept this illogical answer. You're denying yourself the chance of new discoveries byt simply sitting back and saying "Well great, thank god I don't have to think about that anymore"

It's more then possible to believe in a deity and enjoy all of the above. I know. I'm one. Are you sure your not talking about religion as opposed to a belief in some form of God ?

I've no desire to challenge your beliefs or lack of but if the OP was to use these arguments against a theist not bound by religious dogma he'll run into difficulty pretty quickly..

the_pen_turner

pauldla wrote: »

I will not know the OP's answer until it is provided by the OP, surely...?

my reasons are mostly scientific and based on no proof and how idiotic the whole construct seem when you put it on paper.

I believe what Steven fry said about all the evil in the world.

some of the posts above capture my beliefs on the matter fairly well.

robindch

...fixed minor spello in thread title...

endacl

mickrock wrote: »

Just tell them that you've pondered the universe/nature and you believe it to be essentially blind and dumb.

Everything is the product of mindless material mechanisms.

Regarding proof for the above claims, it's probably best to keep quiet.

'Just a theory', eh, Mick?

:rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

Bongalongherb wrote: »

No God substance at all, just spirits of electrical energy in a material world.

Spirituality is just another form of woo. In many ways it's as bad as religion, in some it's worse.

the_pen_turner

robindch wrote: »

...fixed minor spello in thread title...

thanks I think
. what did it say before

pauldla

the_pen_turner wrote: »

my reasons are mostly scientific and based on no proof and how idiotic the whole construct seem when you put it on paper.

I believe what Steven fry said about all the evil in the world.

some of the posts above capture my beliefs on the matter fairly well.

Then that's what you tell them; a polite smile and "I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make any sense to me" or something along those lines may be useful. Some humour might help diffuse things too ("You don't believe I don't believe? I don't believe you don't believe I don't believe, if you can believe that" etc etc). If they insist on the "Oh, so you're an atheist then?" line, perhaps try the Neil de grasse Tyson response ("Well, let's have that conversation and you tell me what I am").

Canadel

You only need one reason.

There is not good enough reason to believe in a god or religious doctrine, than not believing in either, so you feel you're better off holding out and putting your faith in science, logic, reason, humanity, pokemon cards etc.

topmanamillion

1. About 105 billion humans have ever lived. Heavan and hell must be packed?
2. Explain to me how purgatory once existed and because of some bad press (e.g baby graves) it no longer does?
3. What happened to all the people who were born before your religion existed? Were they damned simply through being born at the wrong time?

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

*the babbies were doing the Limbo

cowboyBuilder

For me , it's simple

1. Burden of proof is not on me , it's on the believer.
Sure I can't prove God doesn't exist, nor can I prove Santa doesn't.

2. The simple facts that there are many faiths, at least one must be wrong !!! - or more simply all of them are ?


3. Related to 2, As Richard Dawkins says "We are ALL atheists - but some of us just go one God further!"

seamus

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

I'm trying to work out why people might doubt your sincerity? why also is it important that people believe you? You don't believe in God. No sweat. Are you maybe not sure. Have you considered agnosticism to start before working your way up to pure atheist? All joking aside, You don't need to be believed that you don't believe. (I should get that put on a tee-shirt) ;-)

You're right of course, but being of a minority with a different point of view usually means you will be subjected to interrogation and have your viewpoint challenged.

Not because they don't believe you, but because they feel threatened. People don't like people who don't just go along with the crowd.

I was very heartened though at a recent wedding to see a lot of young Irish people not going up for the eucharist. There was a point in my younger years that you'd get sideways glances and confused looks when you stayed in the pew while everyone else went up for the edible paper. This time around only three from our pew went up, everyone else stayed seated.

the_pen_turner

I generally find these people are total hypocrites . when I say I don't believe and to respect my beliefs and il respect your they get all defensive and want proof that my beliefs are right. something no one can 100%provide . but when they are defending their belief they don't want to hear the whole evidence argument.


I asked one nut job (nut job in general not just on religion) about my beliefs , he started on about atheists being evil and the work of the evil,
somehow twisted atheism into causing the paedophile situation in the church
he thought that all non believers of his religion should be nailed to the cross and left to die

luckily he was a random person (relation of friend of a friend) and I could tell him to PFO

Huntergonzo

1. Generally if anybody asks or if I'm discussing religion with my mates (most of them are believers but we very rarely discuss it), I always tell them I don't believe. It really shouldn't take anymore than that, but if they're going to try and convince I usually like to have a bit of fun with them, for example:

2. Ask them if they really believe in eternal paradise after death why do they wear a seat-belt when driving? Surely they'd rather be in paradise with all the legends of human history than live on this kip with taxes and hangovers.

3. Tell them that when you're atheist you can do things like eat all the cake you want or pleasure yourself sexually or whatever else, happy in the knowledge that someone isn't watching and judging you :-)

the_pen_turner

Huntergonzo wrote: »

1. Generally if anybody asks or if I'm discussing religion with my mates (most of them are believers but we very rarely discuss it), I always tell them I don't believe. It really shouldn't take anymore than that, but if they're going to try and convince I usually like to have a bit of fun with them, for example:

2. Ask them if they really believe in eternal paradise after death why do they wear a seat-belt when driving? Surely they'd rather be in paradise with all the legends of human history than live on this kip with taxes and hangovers.

3. Tell them that when you're atheist you can do things like eat all the cake you want or pleasure yourself sexually or whatever else, happy in the knowledge that someone isn't watching and judging you :-)

I like these kinds of points.
funny but makes a point

One eyed Jack

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I generally find these people are total hypocrites . when I say I don't believe and to respect my beliefs and il respect your they get all defensive and want proof that my beliefs are right. something no one can 100%provide . but when they are defending their belief they don't want to hear the whole evidence argument.


I asked one nut job (nut job in general not just on religion) about my beliefs , he started on about atheists being evil and the work of the evil,
somehow twisted atheism into causing the paedophile situation in the church
he thought that all non believers of his religion should be nailed to the cross and left to die

luckily he was a random person (relation of friend of a friend) and I could tell him to PFO

You missed a trick there OP. You should have gone with the Victor Meldrew response -

Huntergonzo

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I asked one nut job (nut job in general not just on religion) about my beliefs , he started on about atheists being evil and the work of the evil,
somehow twisted atheism into causing the paedophile situation in the church
he thought that all non believers of his religion should be nailed to the cross and left to die

luckily he was a random person (relation of friend of a friend) and I could tell him to PFO

Jaysus, sounds like you ran into a right mental case.

Reading that reminded me of a time I was working in Clonmel a couple of years ago, I was out on the street waiting on GPS equipment to take it's observations so I wasn't exactly very busy. Anyway a man (with a seemingly permanent smile on his face) decided to start talking to me and I like talking to people so I was happy to oblige, especially when the first thing he said was "do you believe in Jesus Christ our savour" (he identified himself as a christian).

Politely I laughed and said no, I'm atheist, to which he responded, 'I used to be a non believer as well, but one day I was watching Pat Kenny on the late late show and I could literally feel jesus christ enter my stomach and proceed to fill my entire body', I **** you not that's what he said to me. I mean how do you respond to that, jokingly I just said 'are you sure watching Pat Kenny didn't just turn your stomach'. He left shortly afterwords, hoping that I would find christ (not sure where the fúck you'd even begin to look), it was a bizarre/funny experience but we never got nasty with each other.

Anyway I since found out that there's a big psychiatric hospital in Clonmel......make of that what you will :-)

Bristolscale7

There are not reasons for being an atheist. Rather, it is the default position of anyone who has half a brain and wasn't religiously indoctrinated from a young age.

Kivaro

1. Father
2. Son
3. Holy Ghost

Akrasia

1. It's 2016
2. I'm a grown up
3. I don't believe in magic.

The Bishop Basher

seamus wrote: »

You're right of course, but being of a minority with a different point of view usually means you will be subjected to interrogation and have your viewpoint challenged.

Definitely some validity in this, I suppose it's human nature, and on that basis I don't think it's confined to theists...

seamus wrote: »

Not because they don't believe you, but because they feel threatened. People don't like people who don't just go along with the crowd.

I'm not so sure about this.. I don't think any of us can really know their reasons especially given the fact that those reasons will be different for everyone...

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

There are not reasons for being an atheist. Rather, it is the default position of anyone who has half a brain and wasn't religiously indoctrinated from a young age.

But if you approach any theist with this, or any of the other numerous comments on this thread that state theists as inferior, backward, unintelligent, insane, lacking etc etc. Then yes, you will most definitely elicit the very response that everyone here says they wish to avoid...

Tolerance, acceptance and understanding go both ways. You get what you give.
Generally I find if you respect others views and try not to be a dick about it, you get the same respect back in return.

Of course the muppets exist. They always will. Some of them will be theist, some of them won't. But they will be muppets regardless of the topic being discussed and need to be dealt with as such in whatever way works for you.

looksee

Swanner wrote: »

D
I'm not so sure about this.. I don't think any of us can really know their reasons especially given the fact that those reasons will be different for everyone...
(Not because they don't believe you, but because they feel threatened. People don't like people who don't just go along with the crowd.)

I agree with Seamus on this, though I would argue that people want their opinions validated, they feel insecure/threatened by other people having different opinions.

But if you approach any theist with this, or any of the other numerous comments on this thread that state theists as inferior, backward, unintelligent, insane, lacking etc etc. Then yes, you will most definitely elicit the very response that everyone here says they wish to avoid...

Tolerance, acceptance and understanding go both ways. You get what you give.
Generally I find if you respect others views and try not to be a dick about it, you get the same respect back in return.

Of course the muppets exist. They always will. Some of them will be theist, some of them won't. But they will be muppets regardless of the topic being discussed and need to be dealt with as such in whatever way works for you.

I do tend to agree with you on this, I don't think theists are ' inferior, backward, unintelligent, insane, lacking etc'. All I want is that I don't have to take account of, or be affected by theist beliefs in my daily life.

The Bishop Basher

looksee wrote: »

I agree with Seamus on this, though I would argue that people want their opinions validated, they feel insecure/threatened by other people having different opinions.

Apologies I should have been clearer. I'm not questioning the validity of the reasons. I would think for many if not most they hold true but that can only be speculation on my part.

looksee wrote: »

All I want is that I don't have to take account of, or be affected by theist beliefs in my daily life.

100% understood and agreed. And it's generally because of the afore mentioned muppets that it's unlikely to happen for anyone. But if we ever do manage to figure it out we'll simultaneously solve many of the worlds biggest problems.

Stealthfins

1: Gives people with resentments with the church something to moan about.

2: Gives idiots a chance to let people know how intelligent they are.

3: It's a waste of time arguing about something that doesn't exist.

syklops

1. There is no God.
2. There is no God
3. There is no God.

Hows that?