General MMA Chat/News mk2

Swashbuckler

TimRiggins wrote: »

No its not. Romero was proved to have had a tainted supplement, no matter how many people say he was juicing. As for the decision, he still lost the fight. His list of wins in the UFC isn't the most impressive either.

I agree with the list of wins. It was more the timing than anything. Can't remember the details exactly but when Jacare fought Romero, it was pretty much considered a title eliminator fight. Not sure was Rockhold injured at the time or something and they were the next two in line.

As for the tainted supplement, I'm a bit sketchy on all that. Why did he still serve a ban if it was proven to be tainted?

Useful.Idiot

TimRiggins wrote: »

Romero was proved to have had a tainted supplement

Just like Jon Jones will probably be proved to have taken a tainted supplement :pac:

TimRiggins

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I agree with the list of wins. It was more the timing than anything. Can't remember the details exactly but when Jacare fought Romero, it was pretty much considered a title eliminator fight. Not sure was Rockhold injured at the time or something and they were the next two in line.

As for the tainted supplement, I'm a bit sketchy on all that. Why did he still serve a ban if it was proven to be tainted?

Rockhold fought Weidman the same night. Then Romero got banned so they did Rockhold/Weidman 2 which fell through.

He got banned because he's still responsible for what he puts into his body. Just like Chad Mendes got banned for using skin cream or whatever it was. They proved it to USADA from the supplements. I'm not saying Romero was clean all his life, I have my doubts too, but Jacare doesn't deserve a title shot because of it.

maximoose

I thought it was widely accepted that Mendes' skin cream excuse was bullshît for what he popped for.

TimRiggins

maximoose wrote: »

I thought it was widely accepted that Mendes' skin cream excuse was bullshît for what he popped for.

Well he failed for a Growth Hormone Releasing Hexapeptide which on its own isn't really known to be performing enhancing.

People are getting the precipitation that because you fail a USADA test you're automatically a juice head, completely false. They are lots of tainted supplements out there and lots of things banned that probably shouldn't be.

Swashbuckler

TimRiggins wrote: »

Rockhold fought Weidman the same night. Then Romero got banned so they did Rockhold/Weidman 2 which fell through.

He got banned because he's still responsible for what he puts into his body. Just like Chad Mendes got banned for using skin cream or whatever it was. They proved it to USADA from the supplements. I'm not saying Romero was clean all his life, I have my doubts too, but Jacare doesn't deserve a title shot because of it.

Probably deserved a Middleweight title shot more than GSP or Diaz though? Well Diaz anyway.

TimRiggins

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Probably deserved a Middleweight title shot more than GSP or Diaz though? Well Diaz anyway.

Of yeah of course, but you can see why Bisping was willing to fight either for the bigger payday. Especially GSP. I wasn't that sure that if Bisping did fight GSP that the title would have been on the line though because I doubt GSP wanted to have to defend his belt against either Romero, Rockhold or Weidman.

Swashbuckler

TimRiggins wrote: »

Of yeah of course, but you can see why Bisping was willing to fight either for the bigger payday. Especially GSP. I wasn't that sure that if Bisping did fight GSP that the title would have been on the line though because I doubt GSP wanted to have to defend his belt against either Romero, Rockhold or Weidman.

Yeah I get what you mean. It doesn't look great though. It does come across like he's dodging the Jacare fight albeit with sound reasoning.
I don't blame him for looking for the big payday. I don't see him being champ for much longer.

bur

Bisping comes out of this looking like a clown. He might show a bit more tact next time he feels like calling out WW's.

Warrior spirit my arse.

CurryFlavoured

I know it's for the 'money shot' but this is too much, and I've always like Mike. You've already got away with fighting a middle aged man, now you go calling out two welterweights who haven't fought in donkeys years. McGregor vs Bisping would sell great too, why not call him out!

Fight Jacare or the winner of Weidman/Yoel, depending on how they perform.

Depp

Bisping is dead right to turn down the jacare fight, fair enough stepping in at short notice as a challenger but why in the name of fcuk should he step in as a champion with 4 weeks notice to fight a guy coming off a loss and a victory against a has-been, especially so soon after the damage he took in the hendo fight, on a fight night in bloody australia. Would want to be a proper thick to take that fight.

Mellor

TimRiggins wrote: »

[
Well he failed for a Growth Hormone Releasing Hexapeptide which on its own isn't really known to be performing enhancing.

I'm pretty sure it is performance enhancing depending on how it's used.
Regardless, you don't know that he wasnt taking it with something else.


It's kinda weird that lots of people just accepted Chads story. But are skeptical of the rest of them.
Tainted supp story is an easy excuse. But in Romero's case USADA tested that supp independently and I failed. That's about as much proof as you'll get.

Gamebred

Didnt Romero pass wada testing pre mma for years?

Subcomandante Marcos

Gamebred wrote: »

Didnt Romero pass wada testing pre mma for years?

Years and years and years.

Depp

Mellor wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it is performance enhancing depending on how it's used.
Regardless, you don't know that he wasnt taking it with something else.


It's kinda weird that lots of people just accepted Chads story. But are skeptical of the rest of them.
Tainted supp story is an easy excuse. But in Romero's case USADA tested that supp independently and I failed. That's about as much proof as you'll get.

I think the thing with chad is he owned up to his mistake, took his punishment on the chin and didnt try weasel it down or get away with it.

CurryFlavoured

Depp wrote: »

Bisping is dead right to turn down the jacare fight, fair enough stepping in at short notice as a challenger but why in the name of fcuk should he step in as a champion with 4 weeks notice to fight a guy coming off a loss and a victory against a has-been, especially so soon after the damage he took in the hendo fight, on a fight night in bloody australia. Would want to be a proper thick to take that fight.

Not arguing the timeline, I'm arguing the opponents he's gunning for. And before I'm told, I'm well aware of why he wants them.

Mellor

Depp wrote: »

I think the thing with chad is he owned up to his mistake, took his punishment on the chin and didnt try weasel it down or get away with it.

But ironically that's what has allowed him to get away with it, in the eyes of a lot of fans. He accepted the punishment, and didn't make an excuse...but then he came out with his excuse. And because he had accepted the punishment, nobody verified that excuse. He never gave the brand of skincream, it was never tested, etc. People did a bit of digging and couldn't find a skinscream with GRP6 in it. Some evidence suggested GRP6 would make psoriasis worse.

JJayoo

Leave Chad alone

JJayoo

Leave Chad alone

wonderfullife

Mellor wrote: »

But ironically that's what has allowed him to get away with it, in the eyes of a lot of fans. He accepted the punishment, and didn't make an excuse...but then he came out with his excuse. And because he had accepted the punishment, nobody verified that excuse. He never gave the brand of skincream, it was never tested, etc. People did a bit of digging and couldn't find a skinscream with GRP6 in it. Some evidence suggested GRP6 would make psoriasis worse.

"Tainted supplements" offer wealthier fighters a reversed-engineered excuse.

Brock Lesnar is now on to his 3rd adjournment until December 12th for his hearing. They are apparently still testing things.

The issue is this: there's zero to stop his team buying every single product in a GNC and testing every one of them until they find something that can cover what he tested positive for.

This is a costly process, of course, testing isn't cheap. But it allows wealthier fighters to get out of jail with this. Jon Jones future career is arguably worth over $40 million. If it means spending $200,000 testing every product under the sun until they find a tainted batch, it's money well spent.

Heaven forbid if Conor ever tests positive (for anything) he'd have every incentive to shell out hundreds of thousands to find a contaminated batch of something.

It's a loophole USADA needs to close and close fast.

EuskalHerria

"Veteran Tom Lawlor has been provisionally suspended by the UFC following a potential USADA violation"

- http://www.mmafighting.com/2016/11/3/13516128/ufc-veteran-tom-lawlor-suspended-due-to-potential-usada-violation

A man who may be missed more for weigh ins and walkouts.

wonderfullife

EuskalHerria wrote: »

"Veteran Tom Lawlor has been provisionally suspended by the UFC following a potential USADA violation"

- http://www.mmafighting.com/2016/11/3/13516128/ufc-veteran-tom-lawlor-suspended-due-to-potential-usada-violation

A man who may be missed more for weigh ins and walkouts.

That's a sad one Really like Tom he's good value. Ah sure he'll be grand with the tainted supplement defence

Mellor

wonderfullife wrote: »

[of
"Tainted supplements" offer wealthier fighters a reversed-engineered excuse.

Not really. See below

Brock Lesnar is now on to his 3rd adjournment until December 12th for his hearing. They are apparently still testing things.

I purposely didn't mention Brock because a) I dont know what he actually popped for,
b) he hasn't said where it came from, and

The issue is this: there's zero to stop his team buying every single product in a GNC and testing every one of them until they find something that can cover what he tested positive for.

This is a costly process, of course, testing isn't cheap. But it allows wealthier fighters to get out of jail with this. Jon Jones future career is arguably worth over $40 million. If it means spending $200,000 testing every product under the sun until they find a tainted batch, it's money well spent.

So this is the reverse engineered solution. And sure it's true, they could do that. And it would be a viable way to get knowingly take the PEDs, yet maintain the pretence of ignorance.

However, this assumes that the substance is of a benefit on its own. Which is probably not the case a lot of them time. These aren't supplements tainted with steroids - it's all the other stuff that PED user take. Stuff that's legal over the counter. In Jones case it was a drug to prevent excess estrogen - which happens when you take testosterone.

It's a loophole USADA needs to close and close fast.

It's not really a loophole as they still get hit with a fine and a ban.

wonderfullife

Mellor wrote: »

Not really. See below


I purposely didn't mention Brock because a) I dont know what he actually popped for,
b) he hasn't said where it came from, and


So this is the reverse engineered solution. And sure it's true, they could do that. And it would be a viable way to get knowingly take the PEDs, yet maintain the pretence of ignorance.

However, this assumes that the substance is of a benefit on its own. Which is probably not the case a lot of them time. These aren't supplements tainted with steroids - it's all the other stuff that PED user take. Stuff that's legal over the counter. In Jones case it was a drug to prevent excess estrogen - which happens when you take testosterone.



It's not really a loophole as they still get hit with a fine and a ban.

Brock popped for Clomiphene amongst others.

The loophole exists because the fine and ban is a mandatory 2 years but with the tainted supplement defence (if proved) the ban can be mitigated to 6 months - which, in reality, is not even a ban considering most active fighters only fight every 4 months.

You're right, they would only need to find products that contain masking agents or, in this case, estrogen blockers.

But that's clearly easy to do. Yoel Romero found one. Tim Means found one. Now Jon Jones says he found one.

The issue is that there's no way of verifying these athletes actually took these "tainted supplements" in the first place. So it presents a get-out-of-jail option - that's IF the athlete is willing to fork out a substantial amount to get a lot of creams/supplements tested until they hit bingo on what they're looking for.

I fully believe if Chad Mendes had been willing to throw $200,000 at testing everything under the sun, he could have found a "tainted" product to explain away his situation.

It's an imperfect system currently. The only way it could be improved is if the UFC in conjunction with USADA give a very limited list of approved supplements an athlete can take. Then, if they pop and say they took a different supplement not on the list, they have no leg to stand on and it's an automatic 2-year ban.

Mellor

wonderfullife wrote: »

Brock popped for Clomiphene amongst others.

Source?
I thought they were suggesting it was an inhaler. Which would imply a bronchodilator. But maybe he's moving the goalposts now.
But as I said, I didn't mention him for a reason.

But that's clearly easy to do. Yoel Romero found one. Tim Means found one. Now Jon Jones says he found one.

Which is of no use without the daddy-PED. And a get out of jail tainted supp is void when they pop for that. They could chance it to cover their recovery track. But it's a huge outlay, for half an excuse.

The issue is that there's no way of verifying these athletes actually took these "tainted supplements" in the first place. So it presents a get-out-of-jail option - that's IF the athlete is willing to fork out a substantial amount to get a lot of creams/supplements tested until they hit bingo on what they're looking for.

Athletes already have to provide whereabouts, it wouldn't be much extra work to includes a list of shops they are taking.

I fully believe if Chad Mendes had been willing to throw $200,000 at testing everything under the sun, he could have found a "tainted" product to explain away his situation.

If one exists, as of yet it hasn't been found. And I don't think it will be.

It's an imperfect system currently. The only way it could be improved is if the UFC in conjunction with USADA give a very limited list of approved supplements an athlete can take. Then, if they pop and say they took a different supplement not on the list, they have no leg to stand on and it's an automatic 2-year ban.

They currently provide a list of OTC legal sups that cause you to piss hot, it's a start. But there are so many out there, they can't approve or unapproved them all.


I think the sport is filthy, don't get me wrong.

Lukker-

It's simple really. The fighters should have to submit all the brand name and supplements that they are on, product code and batch number included.

If they pop, the tainted supplement excuse should only apply to disclosed supplements. They should get away without a ban if they had disclosed the tainted supplement before hand, if not not a 2 year ban.

Kirby

Depp wrote: »

I think the thing with chad is he owned up to his mistake, took his punishment on the chin and didnt try weasel it down or get away with it.

He did nothing of the sort. He started up a sob story about how he needed the cream for his psoriasis. A family member of mine has psoriasis and there isnt a single brand of cream under the sun that contains what Chad popped for.

He cheated. He got caught. He didn't appeal it because he knows his story is bullsh*t and wont stand up to even the mildest scrutiny. The cream story is just a PR exercise for him to trick gullible fans into giving him a pass and stupidly defend him. And it mostly worked too. MMA forums are filled with Chad fans lamenting at how awful it is that a skincream has "robbed" him of two years. It's pathetic.

Lukker-

Kirby wrote: »

He did nothing of the sort. He started up a sob story about how he needed the cream for his psoriasis. A family member of mine has psoriasis and there isnt a single brand of cream under the sun that contains what Chad popped for.

He cheated. He got caught. He didn't appeal it because he knows his story is bullsh*t and wont stand up to even the mildest scrutiny. The cream story is just a PR exercise for him to trick gullible fans into giving him a pass and stupidly defend him. And it mostly worked too. MMA forums are filled with Chad fans lamenting at how awful it is that a skincream has "robbed" him of two years. It's pathetic.

The only other MMA forum I read /r/MMA pretty much came to the conclusion that it was a BS excuse. It was asked in the chemistry forum would there be any point putting in that certain HGH peptide in a skin cream for psoriasis and the unanimous decision was that it isn't in any creams with FDA approval and has no scientific evidence that it would be helpful.

Chad accepted his punishment privately and tried to save face a bit publicly. I think 75% of UFC stars are probably still juicing to some extent so I don't really get hung up on it, everyone is looking for an edge and unless there is some new anti doping breakthrough it will never get completely wiped out.

wonderfullife

Mellor wrote: »

Source?
I thought they were suggesting it was an inhaler. Which would imply a bronchodilator. But maybe he's moving the goalposts now.
But as I said, I didn't mention him for a reason.

http://www.mmafighting.com/2016/7/23/12261944/brock-lesnar-tested-positive-for-anti-estrogen-lesnar-jon-jones-won-t

Lukker- wrote: »

It's simple really. The fighters should have to submit all the brand name and supplements that they are on, product code and batch number included.

If they pop, the tainted supplement excuse should only apply to disclosed supplements. They should get away without a ban if they had disclosed the tainted supplement before hand, if not not a 2 year ban.

Yeah that's the bingo right there.

Submit all they're taking and if a USADA approved product is found to be contaminated then they should get the benefit of doubt.

Mellor

Lukker- wrote: »

It's simple really. The fighters should have to submit all the brand name and supplements that they are on, product code and batch number included.

That's what I tried to suggest above, input it with whereabouts. Only I wrote shops instead on supps