General MMA Chat/News mk2

Fromvert

I think Duffy is off to Bellator after this fight.
He's already turned down contract offer, why would they up the offer after beating a journeyman in Madadi.

Lukker-

Fromvert wrote: »

I think Duffy is off to Bellator after this fight.
He's already turned down contract offer, why would they up the offer after beating a journeyman in Madadi.

Probably, it'd be a shame in my eyes but if they don't value him as much as he thinks he's worth fair play to him.

Bellator has a deep enough LW division and if they are willing to promote him more and he can go on a good run, we'll probably see him back in the UFC in a couple of years.

Bellator events are all free and they usually get over 1.5m viewers, it's not a bad place to build yourself at all.

Mellor

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Yeah I definitely wouldn't call Joe easily top 10, not yet anyway, especially when you consider how competitive 155 is. He's really likeable though and has great potential. He needs to make light work of Madadi, who's potentially a very tough stylistic match up - a very good wrestler. If he can stop the takedown he will box him up but it won't be straightforward. Then he needs another top 15/20 matchup.

Agree with all of that. He's knocking on the door of the rankings, but by no means a shoe in. He needs to beat an Evan Dunham type. A fighter whose been around the division a while and somewhat known. But no longer a top 10 LW.

Deleted User wrote: »

Does his performance at London really matter? I'm sure there were a lot of annoyed UFC execs about Duffy asking for more money to appear on the Belfast card. Dana seemed very annoyed so am expecting them to not renew.
He has an incredible record though for 1st round finishes, would be a pity.

He asked for a better opponent, not more money. He agree to the money when he signed his contract. They'll renew if there is value in him. Negotiating is routine enough for them I'd imagine.

Lukker- wrote: »

And whoever said Poirier dispatched of him easily, not really. Poirier got lit up on the feet and had to take him down to win it. It was a clear win for Dustin, but not an "easy" fight.

Definitely not an easy win for Poirier. But I think that fight proves that for now he isn't top 10. I'd consider Poirier to be a good shout for LW top 10 gate keeper.

Django99

It might not be the worst thing if he did end up in Bellator. If he could get a couple of fights there against their top guys he would probably make good money and increase his bargaining power to get back to the UFC. When the likes of Alvarez and Brooks came from Bellator they got decent opponents straight away.

That's assuming of course he could get a couple of wins against the top guys there. There would be a few very interesting match ups, would love to see him against Thomson. Going on the Poirier fight Bendo and Chandler would be tough match ups.

Hopefully he can stay in UFC though as said above if he was gone McGregor would be the only one left once Seery goes and no real signs of anyone new coming.

Lukker-

Lukker- wrote: »

It wasn't money, he wanted a better opponent

Mellor wrote: »

He asked for a better opponent, not more money. He agree to the money when he signed his contract. They'll renew if there is value in him. Negotiating is routine enough for them I'd imagine.

He was in contract negotiations at the time and the new contract he refused wasn't enough money. He turned down the Belfast fight as he said he had nothing to gain, the quality of the opponent wouldn't prove his worth and get him a better deal so we're both right. Too lazy to google the interview for you both.

Mellor

Deleted User wrote: »

He was in contract negotiations at the time and the new contract he refused wasn't enough money. He turned down the Belfast fight as he said he had nothing to gain, the quality of the opponent wouldn't prove his worth and get him a better deal so we're both right. Too lazy to google the interview for you both.

I'm seen the interview. That was a new contract he was negotiating. He felt he deserved better, and wanted more money for future fights, not more money to appear in Belfast (current contract). They couldn't agree so he declined to take the fight as running out his contract left him with no leverage.

Since then he's decided to run his contract down and test free agency. I'd guess that going to Belator isn't what he wants to do. And ultimately he's hoping to blitz Madadi and stake his worth.



As an aside, I never realised how old Madadi was. Chap's 39 in a few months. He's also lucky that he got matched up in London, it could be a while before he's back into the US.

wonderfullife

Lukker- wrote: »

Probably, it'd be a shame in my eyes but if they don't value him as much as he thinks he's worth fair play to him.

Mellor wrote: »

I'm seen the interview. That was a new contract he was negotiating. He felt he deserved better, and wanted more money for future fights, not more money to appear in Belfast (current contract).

The really sad part of the Duffy story is that his current deal is only $20,000/$20,000.

The disclosed payouts for UFC 195 were Poirier 42k/42k (took home 84k) and Duffy 20k/20k (took home 20k). Alright he got 2.5k from Reebok as well. $22,500 isn't a lot when you pay tax on it, pay TriStar, pay coaches, training partners, flights and hotels etc.

Honestly I'd be surprised if there was enough left over to buy a new fridge.

Actually it's arguable that Charlie Ward took home more for the 53 second beating he took in Belfast. He took home $12,500 and it's likely he had less overheads.

Either way, Duffy is certainly worth 40k/40k and my suspicion is he's not asking for a whole lot more than that.

Pretty sad stuff at the lower echelons of the UFC. They need to get rid of win bonuses and have baseline pay of a minimum of $30,000 a fight. They paid out $121,500 between Duffy and Poirier when accounting for Reebok pay. Surely paying Dustin a flat 75k and Duffy a flat 45k would keep fighters happy.

Scrapping win bonuses is the fastest way for the UFC to get a handle on fighter unhappiness. It immediately allows them to up the pay across the entire roster without actually spending more.

Mellor

wonderfullife wrote: »

It immediately allows them to up the pay across the entire roster without actually spending more.

That not mathematically possible.
In the example you gave you took $24k off Poirier to give it to Joe. It's a zero sum game.

A flat fee system would mean that instead of 20/20k fighters are on 30k flat or similar so that it averages out the same. It's more stable, but it actually hurts the wining fighters more. A rising fighter should be happy to fight for a winners purse rather than split it prefight with his opponent. But once he's established, they should be looking to get on a flat fee.


Looking at a recent event (207). Smolka, Saffiedine and John Lineker all lost and took home $37k, $40k and $43k respectively. Duffy deserves at least 40k/40k along side them imo

Django99

That particular fight was brilliant and deserved a bonus for each fighter. It was also the first time they put a high profile fight on Fight Pass and it did record numbers for them. Whatever about Poirier, Duffy definitely deserved more. He was also unlucky not to get a bonus for the Clarke fight either. You'd think coming out and submitting a very good BJJ guy in 25 seconds deserved it.

Mellor

Django99 wrote: »

That particular fight was brilliant and deserved a bonus for each fighter...He was also unlucky not to get a bonus for the Clarke fight either. You'd think coming out and submitting a very good BJJ guy in 25 seconds deserved it.

The performance/fight bonuses are much about how everyone else on the card did as the fighter themselves.
In those cases Duffy (vrs Poirier) was unfortunate enough to share the card with Lawler v Conduit, and his sub of Mitch Clarke was overshadowed by Alvarez blitzing RDA

wonderfullife

Mellor wrote: »

T

A flat fee system would mean that instead of 20/20k fighters are on 30k flat or similar so that it averages out the same. It's more stable, but it actually hurts the wining fighters more. A rising fighter should be happy to fight for a winners purse rather than split it prefight with his opponent. But once he's established, they should be looking to get on a flat fee.


Looking at a recent event (207). Smolka, Saffiedine and John Lineker all lost and took home $37k, $40k and $43k respectively. Duffy deserves at least 40k/40k along side them imo

What I mean (I guess) is that win bonuses were (partly) designed to encourage fighters to go for finishes but it's counter-intuitive really. If anything it makes fighters take less risks during a fight because the downside of losing is actually worse than the upside of the win bonus.

A 20k win bonus is nice and it usually means you'll keep your spot on the roster and pay a few bills yet 2 consecutive losses could see you being cut. Even one in some cases. So new fighters or fighters coming off a defeat are not chasing the win bonus. They are chasing victory via caution as it's their only way to guarantee another fight.

Over the weekend, neither Sterling or Assuncao seemed willing to pull the trigger. I know it's a convenient example for me to use because they are both counter-fighters but the monetary benefit of the win-bonus wasn't enough for either man to throw caution to the wind at any stage.

They were both desperate to just scrape a decision win.

I'm not the only one advocating scrapping the win-bonus to be fair, a lot of prominent fighters and journalists seem to think the system is outdated.

Maths isn't my strong-point but you get my drift anyway. Instead of putting Dustin on 42k/42k and Duffy on 20k/20k, I'd like to see them on flat deals that give them a bit more security.

Otherwise there'll be more Al Iaquinta's walking away to find a real job. (though, then again, he has come crawling back!)

Django99

I wouldn't really be against win bonuses but I think performance bonuses should be more plentiful. As Mellor said above a fighter can get very unlucky not to get a performance bonus because somebody else higher on the card also does well. If it was a case where everyone on the card who performed above expected or put on a great show got a bonus I think we'd see better fights and more finishes.

Mellor

@Wonder I had a long reply written but the Internet ate it.

Main points were:
If a fighter won't pull the trigger with 40k to cash in, then I don't think $0 on the line does it. Ultimately I think that in the moment the fight takes over.


And a flat payout is a lot for stable for fighters. But Duffy has a winning record overall, he gave made less to date on a flat rate contract

Gamebred

Dont like getting into it on fighters pay because they signed the contracts nobody forces them but when you have bums like Sage Northcutt earning way more than Duffy it shows what a joke it is.

Mellor

Mellor wrote: »

I'm seen the interview. That was a new contract he was negotiating. He felt he deserved better, and wanted more money for future fights, not more money to appear in Belfast (current contract). They couldn't agree so he declined to take the fight as running out his contract left him with no leverage.

That's not how it works. If he signs a new contract it is effective immediately. He wouldn't have fought the last fight of his old contract before the new one takes effect so he would have been on the higher pay for Belfast Luckily for McGregor or he would have about 5 more contracts still to honour.
It's like football, if they value the player, they don't let the contract run down until near the end.

Duffys contract gave him a $2000 rise after each win. Agreed on fighter pay, it really is a joke. Northcutt $50k show money whereas former champ Dillashaw was on $25k show, both for UFC200. Dillashaw was 23rd highest show money of the 24 fighters on that card. It's not getting much better, Karate Hottie just main evented for $15k show.

It's hard for them to afford a good manager on that kind of money but it needs to be done. It's a pity that the UFC don't see that if they paid the fighters more, they could afford nutritionists & better coaches which would produce less injuries, better fighters, better fights, more hype, more fans and ultimately more money for everyone.

Lukker-

Duffy should join the circus and call out Northcutt post Madadi. Easy fight and he can build his name

JoeyJJ

Francis Ngannou interview on mma hour decent, he has come a long way from landing in France with 100 bucks and sleeping on streets less than 4 years ago.

kwestfan08

In the main I'm against win bonuses. Just feels a wee bit antiquated. If I'm a fighter I'd like to know how much I'm fighting for in total before signing a bout agreement so I can plan my expenses accordingly throughout fight camp.

I'd say every fighter on the lower rung getting 10k/10k would take an increase in base pay with no win bonus. The guys earning 60/70k+ per fight maybe not as you are doubling a much higher number.

CatFromHue

you could argue a win bonus is an incentive to go out and try harder to win but you can also argue it's an incentive to out and try harder not to lose.

ASOT

CatFromHue wrote: »

you could argue a win bonus is an incentive to go out and try harder to win but you can also argue it's an incentive to out and try harder not to lose.

Thats exactly what it is; its an incentive to go out and not lose. Remove the win bonus, have a higher show figure and have more post fight bonuses for various things and itll make more exciting fights imo.

Lukker-

The base rate should be higher for sure. Then the bonus should be incremented, like 15% extra on your purse if you win, 30% for a finish

kumate_champ07

not everyone gets a win bonus when they win. fight of the night is a good incentive for those on lower pay to try and showcase their talent, altho it usually goes to those who suffer the most head trauma that night

Depp

Lukker- wrote: »

The base rate should be higher for sure. Then the bonus should be incremented, like 15% extra on your purse if you win, 30% for a finish

like this idea, would work a lot better if a win bonus was a percentage rather than just the show money again, although unless theyre going to bring show money up for everybody i wouldnt welcome any change

Mellor

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not how it works. If he signs a new contract it is effective immediately. He wouldn't have fought the last fight of his old contract before the new one takes effect so he would have been on the higher pay for Belfast Luckily for McGregor or he would have about 5 more contracts still to honour.

The contract starts immediately, but there's no obligation to bump the already contracted fight. Sure in McGregors case, he's had huge bargaining power.
But I'd bet that their base offer is to serve out current payscale, then a decent increase for the remainder. In Duffys case that would be stay on 24/24 for Belfast/London and then maybe a paltry jump to 30k and 3k increments.


But this is pure speculating, I've no idea what he was offered. I just think that if it was 40k base, +4k increments that he would have (and should have) taken it.

CatFromHue wrote: »

you could argue a win bonus is an incentive to go out and try harder to win but you can also argue it's an incentive to out and try harder not to lose.

I'd imagine each fighter is different in their mentality.
A guy I train said that a highlight finish above else matters to him, one for the fans to remember him and because $50k would be a massive boost for him.

StringerBell

Ash Daly was on Tubridy this morning, spoke very well and came across brilliantly, as you would expect. Wish her all the best for her retirement, first Irish MMA world champion and a great ambassador for the sport.

Tubs didn't do badly himself, the questions were not an attack on the sport which was nice for a change

DrPhilG

StringerBell wrote: »

Ash Daly was on Tubridy this morning, spoke very well and came across brilliantly, as you would expect. Wish her all the best for her retirement, first Irish MMA world champion and a great ambassador for the sport.

Tubs didn't do badly himself, the questions were not an attack on the sport which was nice for a change

Is it available to download anywhere?

StringerBell

DrPhilG wrote: »

Is it available to download anywhere?

Being honest man I'm not sure, I had it on in the car as I had to commute for work this morning. I wouldn't often listen to the Tubridy radio show, I'd say check out the Rte website, maybe they do podcasts or weekly recaps?

Someone else might have a better idea.

It was worth a listen though, spoke about the Safe MMA initiative too which when it spreads to global level will be a fantastic addition for the sport. Her own journey from Karate, BJJ to MMA. She will continue to compete in BJJ and though she said it was a no brainer, it really was obviously, for her to retire after they found the slight damage in the brain she will definitely miss competing, only 29. BJJ doesn't get her going as much as MMA but the risk far outweighs the reward now after the brain scan.

StringerBell

Just googled if his radio shows become available for download and it seems they do, yesterdays one is there anyway so assume todays will be either tonight or tomorrow

Edit:

Its there now

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/ryan-tubridy/podcasts/

Mellor

It will be good to see her compete Amin high level BJJ.
Blackbelt divisions get decent coverage. It's an ADCC year too and she could possibly earn a spot

Mr. CooL ICE

StringerBell wrote: »

Ash Daly was on Tubridy this morning, spoke very well and came across brilliantly, as you would expect. Wish her all the best for her retirement, first Irish MMA world champion and a great ambassador for the sport.

Tubs didn't do badly himself, the questions were not an attack on the sport which was nice for a change

Isn't Tubs a bit of a fan? Iirc, he was one of the few Irish media people actually in support of MMA.

If it was Ray D'Arcy, it would have been a clusterfcuk.