New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

Mr. Guappa

Smith Schuster being released. Not a surprise as he was poor last season and has continued that form into camp. Paying him instead of Jakobi Meyers was a heck of a failure.

eagle eye

Why did Zappe play so much last night? We all know he's gone, Milton should have got a lot of snaps.

el Fenomeno

Delighted JuJu won't be taking valuable snaps from any of our youngsters.

Agreed on Zappe. Seems like a matter of time before he's cut and I don't know what they're waiting for. Nobody will trade for him, he cleared waivers last year for a reason.

eagle eye

I was just thinking about the no.10 jersey as I couldn't remember a successful Patriots QB wearing it so decided to look into all QBs that have woren it. Bob Bleier, Glenn Antrum, Tom Flick, Scott Secules, Don Trull, Harvey White, Jimmy G, Mac Jones and now Drake Maye.

Mac Jones played more games for the Patriots than all the others combined. So I don't think the no.10 is a great number for a Patriots QB.

I've called Maye a bust before we drafted him but he's for so many historic things going against him, the two main ones being the no.10 shirt and being a QB taken with the third pick in a draft.

Safe to say I'll never buy buying a no.10 jersey again. I bought Mac's one. ☹️

el Fenomeno

Judon is off to Atlanta for a 3rd round pick.

eagle eye

As I keep saying, this coach and personnel department are not good.

And if you remember when Mayo got the job I was happy about that but all my faith is gone in him before the season even starts.

We won two games in '92 and one in '90 and we are heading for another '92 at best is my prediction.

el Fenomeno

A third round pick for a 32 year old pass rusher who wants a big pay day coming off a season ending injury is good business.

AbusesToilets

this season was always going to be a wash with that OL

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122504656#Comment_122504656

It would be if you have a good team but we need everything we've got.

el Fenomeno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122504779#Comment_122504779

I'm thinking short term pain for long term gain.

Watching Judon get 10-15 sacks this season would be nice, but ultimately all it would do is maybe help us get 4 or 5 wins instead of 2 or 3.

If the 3rd round pick allows us to make some good moves in next year's draft then I'm all for it.

And considering we had very little leverage and the whole world knew we were letting Judon go, getting a third round pick is more than I expected.

ELM327

I'm actually in favor of the trade. We werent going to pay him, and arent going to make an SB run in the next 2-3 years (and his last 2-3 years). Surprised we got anything as teams knew he had no value to us other than perhaps getting us a slightly worse draft pick with a good sack or two!

I'm ok with a couple of years of rebuilding. Not everyone is the packers or steelers and even the latter has a rebuild ongoing too at the moment (not as drastic as ours). We had 2 decades of success and a couple of years of loaning/sharing our support to TB12 in TB.

I really liked the look of the later round drafted mobile black qb. I know it's easy to look good in the preseason but his skillset excites me. He even runs like my favorite madden QB, michael vick (for ye young kids out there, play Madden 04 and you'll see how unbeatable vick was as a user, his only weakness was fumbling), badly with ball in one hand.

eagle eye

Let's be clear, it's a great get for a 32 year old.

Thing is we are in bad shape. The loss of Barmore really hurts the defense and the loss of Judon is another huge hit. The offense is a complete mess, worst it's ever been.

I think we've already decided we are tanking.

And teams that tank are bad teams, they end up in a mire that's hard to get out of.

Shedite27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122505558#Comment_122505558

Not to mention that getting fron 4/5 wins instead of 2/3 wins could be the difference between pick 2 and pick 6 in next years draft. That could be another first in value

AbusesToilets

Maye looked good last night, made some really nice throws on the run. Just needs to survive this season and hopefully we can upgrade the OL and WR

Mr. Guappa

I think the WR corps will be alright. We're missing a true WR1 who'll dictate coverage, but we have some solid talent there, including Polk who looks set to contribute right away.

The problem will be getting the ball out. OL looks a mess, at Tackle in particular.

ELM327

We don't need anyone to be good, other than talent we expect to be around in 2-4 years time. Missing a WR1 isnt an issue for now. This season is for honest evaluation of the talent on the roster, trying not to win too many games, and getting a good draft slot next year. 2 wins is better than 3. We didnt need vets like juju or judon etc. We need guys in their mid 20's that will still contribute at the top level in 3 years. Combine last year, this year and next year's draft into a solid team. Then look at vets, WR1 etc.

Playing brisset is a good move in that direction. Ensure we won't win too many!

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122580939#Comment_122580939

Tanking is never a good idea. Maybe if you do it once but after being the third worst team in football last season we don't need to tank again. What if you get all the draft picks horribly wrong, and after this years draft I wouldn't trust Wolf or Mayo. None of our top three draft picks will help. Polk's only hope is with a no.1 at least and maybe a second guy ahead of him. He has no pace, he isn't dynamic in any way except for the height he can jump.

What do you think is going to happen towards then end of the season with us having one or two wins? I'll tell you that at least one if not more of these chants will be going on and I think it'll be at least two. 'Mayo out', 'we want Bill' and 'Kraft out". I can't imagine there'll be a Wolf one even though most will want him gone too. What do you do then when you know theh fans want your head and the players are hearing this stuff and likely lots of booing as well. You'll have players who want out for sure.

And it's very clear that we have decided to tank already.

eagle eye

Aside from that stuff. Mayo took Bill's office, that should have been made into some type of historical room where players could go in and look at historic stuff including all the signs that were taken down by Mayo. But no, Mayo takes the office and it's like Bill was never there. Thats despicale carry on.

He's talking about all this player friendly stuff like video games. Wtf is he running, a football team or a community retreat?

He's made lots of mistakes and the season hasn't even begun. The biggest is draft Drake Maye, if Mayo survives season 1, Maye is the sword he will fall on. There's only two QBs I think will make it from this draft and they are Williams and Penix. Tape would suggest that Nix won't make it either but just the fact that he is under Payton gives him a chance.

Anyway I think for the first time ever I'm just going to watch red zone rather than go through the pain of watching full New England games.

ELM327

I'm not saying to purposefully tank, far from it. But I'm being realistic. We're not even close to contenders. So there's no good going 7-10 and missing the playoffs and picking in the teens next year.

I'm not sold on the Mayo hire either. He seems too DEI focused, too focused on mollycoddling players and staff as opposed to doing the necessary. Bill is a great coach, and Mayo will get nowhere pretending he didnt exist. We had a 20 year dynasty, it's not all vanished overnight. All dynasties end. Look at the niners, they had the montana/young years, then some time in the wilderness, and now they are perennial contenders. Then the cowboys, who are not upper echelon but are playoff bound most years. Then within that you've got the likes of the steelers and packers that had some wilderness years but come back from them. The packers even wasted some of Favres years! At least we didnt waste Brady. The issue was I suspect once the decision was made that Bill was gone (and they all go, Lombardi, Landry, Cowher etc, even Payton from NO in your example!), there wasn't anyone better than the unproven Mayo willing to take on a large rebuild. And let's be honest, the team was woeful outside of Brady and a couple of others for some time. We rode those coattails for some time.

Bill coming back won't fix anything. He was part of the rot that had set in. Mayo ultimately isnt the answer. Ironically he's the same as his current QB1, Brissett, a band aid until the real guy comes along.

AbusesToilets

I don't buy into the doom and gloom at all. Maye could turn out to be a bust, but I think he's already shown more than Mac did. Hopefully he can be developed thoughtfully, and in a way that keeps him from getting beat up behind a terrible ol.

I think Mayo will approach the season trying to win but won't be that upset with a good draft position next year. Work on coaching the best of the players we have, and build towards a competitive team in a season or two. Won't be pretty for sure

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122581388#Comment_122581388

Mac was the best rookie in the 2021 draft class. He was then thrown to the wolves with a horrendous offensive line and his best receiver let go.

Maye could be starting in a couple of weeks if Jacoby goes down which could very well happen with the state of our OL. He won't last, doesn't check down and tries to run if his first read isn't open, just like Jayden Daniels. They will both pay for that with brutal hits which will mount up.

While I'm not one who believes in historic stuff, QBs taken at no.3 have an awful history, last three being Bortles, Darnold and Lance.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122581886#Comment_122581886

Mac was and always will be a very limited QB. Lawrence has always been a better QB than him, and has shown improvement since his rookie year disaster under Meyer.

Maye is a in a good position, where no one is expecting him to start. Let him sit and learn until the team has a functional OL. Allow him to get coached on improving the deficiencies in his game, as other good QBs have. He's far superior physically to Mac, so the tools are all there.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122582181#Comment_122582181

Mac was the best rookie QB in 2021. You don't know how good or bad he would have been with an at least average offensive and having Jakobi Meyers. I don't know either. I'm not saying he would have been good or great but I'm also not saying he would have been average or worse. The simple reason why is because there was no way to know.

A lot of his ints were because nobody could get open and he wanted to win games. Would he have thrown as many or close to as many ints with a decent OL and Meyers. We'll never know the answer to that.

He basically got thrown under a bus in his second and third seasons.

Mac could check down, could stay in the pocket with good footwork, could throw short, middle and long all over the field. We seen that in his first season. He could work under pressure too.

Maye can't work under pressure, has bad footwork in the pocket, cannot handle pressure without running out of the pocket. Under pressure he either runs or throws long which will result in ints. Running out of the pocket if your first read is not available will get you killed. I've watched all his college games, prior to the draft, and he doesn't impress me. He looks good when there's no pressure and he's got a wide open receiver. He has too many weaknesses to make it in my opinion.

I watched every game from a lot of QBs. Williams will be incredible if he gets good protection which it looks like he will. Penix was the guy I was confident would succeed. I didn't like any of the other top prospects.

I actually liked Milton and felt he'd be a good late round pick, you aren't losing anything and his potential upside is quite interesting.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122582500#Comment_122582500

In fairness Lawrence's rookie season made the rest of Mac's seasons look like a walk in the park. I am not sure you can say that Mac was thrown to the wolves later on without addressing that if you are calling him the best rookie of that class.

Maye would not have been my QB at 3 but his situation is not much better than Mac's was. I also think they had to move on. Maybe he could have developed with different circumstances but by the end Mac was a disaster. His footwork was terrible and even under no pressure he was making terrible decisions. He was not getting fixed behind that line and a fresh start is needed to give him a chance.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122582181#Comment_122582181

Mac was a waste of a top pick. Not because of the player himself, but because of the poor coaching setup and crap team he was thrown to.

Put him in the 07 pats and he does better than Cassel did IMO. He's a fine game manager, but by the end of his stay in NE he was throwing the ball to the opposition and not reading the game. Put Mac behind a good line, with a good running game, a competent receiver corps and a competent defense and he will win games.

Maye is better than Mac, but if we do the same thing we'll get the same output. It's not all raw talent, part of it is situational. Drafting a QB to the chiefs or the niners is a much better chance of having them succeed compared to being drafted to the browns for instance. Mayfield at a good team would likely have been a top QB. The important part now for Maye is to not ruin him with a carousel of coaches and playbooks, let him learn. Play next year with a better team.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122582602#Comment_122582602

Well you mention the receiving corp there. He was trying to get it to receivers who couldn't separate and under pressure to get rid of the ball. You need to take that into consideration when assessing Mac. There is nobody on the planet that could say what Mac's level was based on his last two seasons and anybody who claims they could is a clueless idiot.

I've made it very clear that I don't know if he's a good one or bad one.

I'd have liked us to keep him, take the deal to move back in the draft and get Fashanu and Thomas jr. If he didn't work out we could go get the QB next season and you've two very talented ones in Shedeur Sanders and Carson Beck. They'd have been in my top four in this year's draft if they had come out of college.

AbusesToilets

Mac doesn't have an arm to be an NFL QB at anything other than backup level. That's been apparent since day 1. Brady went 12-4 with largely the same team Mac had his rookie year. He only got worse from there. Maye is an immediate upgrade, now it's up to the management to help him develop and build a team around him that can compete.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122582631#Comment_122582631

I agree. I think we ruined him by killing his confidence in a crap team with crap coaching. For sure he had the ability to at least be at the Cousins level and manage a team.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583909#Comment_122583909

He's (Mac ) not Brady! No one is though. Yes Maye is likely to be an upgrade, but he's cost us two bad seasons and two first round picks, including one in the top 5. If we had kept Mac and developed him properly, imagine the value we could have gotten for pick 3 with a QB still on the board. You're talking multiple 1s anyway from a QB needy team.

On the arm talent, go back and look at reviews of TB12 when he was drafted and started for NE. He didn't have the arm talent either. Allegedly.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122584266#Comment_122584266

We were offered 10, 23 and next years first round pick for 3 and a third rounder initially this year but shortly before our pick it changed to next year by the Vikings. The Giants made an offer as well but nobody is certain what that was.

So we could have got our left tackle, Fashanu, and our choice of Thomas jr, Worthy, McConkey etc.

Or just take the left tackle this year, trade 23 to somebody else for a first next year and be in position to move up if we needed, which we wouldn't, to get a QB next year.

If you are calling it a rebuild, which is ridiculous in my opinion, then you should be patient and not splurging on a QB at the first opportunity. We are short the two most important players to make us competitive. That's not saying we would be playoff contenders this year if we made the moves I wanted. It just means we would be a little better.

That pick to me makes it pretty obvious that Kraft is the real general manager.

And just on Kraft, he's went from a hero to a pariah in my mind and I'd be pretty confident in the minds of over 50% of Patriots fans. He sacked the GOAT coach and then went and organised a hit piece on him. He didn't expect the ex-players to come out and tell everybody that they said a lot of great things about Belichick which were all left out.

el Fenomeno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122584460#Comment_122584460

The Giants offer wasn't formalised, but the call between their GM and Elliot Wolf was shown on Hard Knocks. They were offering to swap firsts this year, and they would also add a 2025 first, and an acknowledgement that they'd have to offer more picks from this year/next year.

Personally, I thought that was a good deal to for us to drop from 3rd pick to 6th pick. But it's easy for me to say that when it's not my job. There's always pressure on GMs to find a franchise QB and if Wolf and co. think Maye is that QB, then you can understand why they didn't want to trade.

https://twitter.com/dpbrugler/status/1815919861182124286

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122584266#Comment_122584266

We wouldn't win the SB with Mac, his weaknesses are too easily exposed. Take away the short routes and he can't throw deep with power. We had to dump him and passing up on drafting a top prospect would be lunacy in the circumstances. A good Q,b can mask a lot of deficiencies, which has benefits when you're building a roster.

AbusesToilets

Whatever about Kraft's media actions, for which I would agree with you on, Belichick deserved to be fired. Especially if you're holding him to his own standards. The team got worse every session after Brady left, he hired terrible coaches and actively undermined his own QB.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586377#Comment_122586377

I'm sorry but Mac Jones had a great deep ball which he never got to show in New England because you need receivers who can separate and an offensive line who can protect and let the play develop. This is one of many from Alabama, this is a 50 yard throw.

https://youtu.be/A51oEvwK_8w?si=lEszPE8kUxW6XSaS

AbusesToilets

Mac can't throw deep with power, they're slow arcing balls. That doesn't cut it in the NFL. It's incredible how his deficiencies are never his fault in your eyes, it's always the team's, yet you wanted Belichick to stay, who was responsible for the team. Square that circle for me.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586839#Comment_122586839

Did you not watch the video, a 50 yard throw and you are saying he couldn't throw a deep ball. Do you want me to put up more of those videos? There's lots of deep balls thrown by him in college. He had an arm.

I didn't just defend him, I defended Bailey Zappe as well. There is no way to say what, if any, deficiencies either of them had and anybody who says he can is clueless. It's impossible to gauge anything in a horrific offense with no protection and nobody able to get open down the field. I've always said that either or both of them could be bad or good, we'll never know unless they get to start somewhere else.

I'm pretty sure Kraft was as much as if not more of a problem than Bill. Maybe he wanted control of the draft like what he did to the Tuna many years ago.

I think the Parcels said something like if you are going to cook the meal you should be allowed buy the groceries. Apparently Kraft wanted to go all defense in that draft but Kraft decided they were taking Terry Glenn in the first round. The Tuna did alright even after that taking Lawyer Milloy in the second and Tedy Bruschi in the third.

Did you hear the much spread rumour that he rang Blank and told him not to hire Belichick?

Anyway what I'm saying is that you don't turn from the GOAT to a bad coach overnight. You could see it in his defense that he was still a great coach. There was something going on in Foxboro and I really think Kraft had a lot to do with it.

At TB12's roast Edelman and Bledsoe said that it was clear Belichick and Kraft didn't get on with each other.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586920#Comment_122586920

You're smoking something if you think Mac has an NFL calibre deep ball. Showing a video of him playing in college, behind an OL with NFL talent, throwing to top of the NFL draft receivers, proves nothing. The video shows how slow his ball is, and it's not like he's throwing into a tight window or having to do a touch pass. He has no velocity at range, that's incontrovertible. That was obvious from his 2nd season on in how defenses played against us. They had no fear of him over the top.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587128#Comment_122587128

Well the receiver he threw it to in the video I put up is struggling to stay on a roster in the NFL. There were a couple of good offensive linemen for sure. Fact of the matter is he had time and threw a ball that landed in the hands of the receiver after it travelled 50 yards. He had a good arm and that proves it.

You are living in cloud cuckoo land.

You don't throw a ball fifty yards without a good arm. How many times have you seen a hail mary hit the end zone from 50 yards?

You seen a sh1t show in New England and think it was all Macs fault when the truth is he was a victim of it, as was Bailey Zappe.

As I said, if you want more videos I'll put them up. I'm just not going to let somebody away with spouting clueless crap.

And I'll tell you right here and now as I've said pretty often already that Maye won't make, he's not good enough. What's your opinion on that statement?

Christy42

Mac struggled with arm power. That is a fact. Yes he has the minimum to arc a ball 50 yards which is impressive for a human but is a basic requirement for an NFL QB.

He packed zip on his ball. Who the receiver is is irrelevant. He gets good separation. Mac does back him before he gets loose so he reads it well and throws an accurate throw down the field.

The issue is that Mac seems to be at his limit throwing his shoulder into the hall and he doesn't have zip on that ball. That becomes more important if you have an NFL level safety closing in on a medium/deep throw Mac gives them an extra tic to reach it. Especially when they see his wind up for it. Mac didn't get to show his arm much in the NFL because it wasn't trusted at that level. If someone gets open or is 1-1 for a jump ball he can use it but outside of that it is a risk for zone defenders coming flying in.

Tldr: he meets the minimum standards of an NFL QB arm but it is a weakness and limits him.

Tom1991

I think Mac had enough to be a competent qb , we seen it in glimpses at times(and we saw why it wont work the next drive at times ) and a great example is the cowboys game in his first year if i remember correctly , gets picked off then the next drive or shortly after throws a bullet over Diggs head and blows him open.

The second year was a disaster on so many fronts , I was working in Toronto and went down to buffalo game before the season end and even with the two kick returns there was great flashes of play from mac but then a wet fart of a throw at the wrong time was picked and that was that.

Then last year the less said the better he was deer in the headlights and throwing with one foot in the air in a panic and then crowd turned on him and that was it his card was marked. I think we could well see him be like a tyrod taylor type that pops up and hands the baton off to someone else transition guy in a year or two.

Im ambivalent about this year looking forward to the london game but apart from that i fully expect it to be a grind and jacoby getting battered for 8/9 weeks if he holds up.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587128#Comment_122587128

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587948#Comment_122587948

So I've been told that the deep ball I put up from Alabama is easy because he was playing for a great team, the fact he threw it 50 yards didn't matter.

So how about the highlights from 2021, his rookie year when he had an average offensive line and one good receiver. He made them all look better than they are outside of Meyers who I personally think is very underrated.

Watch this and tell me what weakness you see in his arm. I see every throw there.

https://youtu.be/J7l1HNPtkWg?si=Az733mS792pSsaHw

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589576#Comment_122589576

Lets take a random moment here @ 2:25:

https://youtu.be/J7l1HNPtkWg?t=146

His ball lacks pace, and is behind the receiver, causing him to check his run. If throws a better ball leading the WR, he's in open country.

Same game, 2:45. He throws a slow, arcing deep ball to Agholor, who has to stop and come back to the ball after beating his coverage by about 2 yds. If he throws that with pace and hits Agholor in stride, that's a TD. Even the TD after the pick, was a poor throw that would have been picked if Diggs didn't make the wrong read.

At 3:43, he actually does make a good throw to lead his receiver. Credit there.

4:35, another lofted deep ball, that forces Bolden to check and back to the ball after beating his coverage.

4:54, a lovely touch pass to Meyers.

Just watch how many of these highlight throws involve either a receiver running wide open through the middle, or a receiver having to check his run to come back to the ball after beating the defender deep.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122590003#Comment_122590003

Nobody, not even Mahomes, throws perfect balls all the time.

I love his floater, he's really good at it, reminds me of Brady.

I'm going off on a tangent now. Watching Brady live was like being at an opera, he lofted soft balls, floaters, quick underneaths, lasers over medium distance to the middle. Then his footwork in the pocket was immense, there was nobody ever better than him moving around in the pocket.

Anyway Mac was the best rookie in 2021, he lasted as long as a starter as all bar Lawrence from that draft.

I'm still not sure if he'd have made it but we'll never know now unless he gets lucky with an opportunity somewhere else.

I had him down as the second best from that draft class after Lawrence.

AbusesToilets

That draft class stunk, and remains to be seen if Lawrence will live up to any of his hype.

No comment on the points made

paulie21

Didn't have Joe Cardona forcing a fumble on the bingo card

el Fenomeno

Statement win. That was very unexpected. The defence was sensational, and the offence got it done almost procedurally. Smart, mistake-free football.

eagle eye

Don't get too excited about that win. The Bengals have started 0-2 the last three seasons.

el Fenomeno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595542#Comment_122595542

Oh FFS

Mr. Guappa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595542#Comment_122595542

Ah here... can't we enjoy being 1-0!

eagle eye

I just said don't get too excited, I didn't say it was a bad thing that we won. It's just that I think it's good to temper expectations.

ELM327

Very surprising game. Brisset looked like David Garrard when he used to run, slowly, but effectively for some unknown reason!
On a serious note, very happy (as always) with Stephenson, he usually has a good game. The line held up, and the block for the stephenson TD by the rookie OL (who I hadnt heard of) augurs well.

Defense looked ok except on the long drive. Not saying we're a contender or anything but I have to be honest that I'm glad we can't be 0-17 now. That was the only thing record wise I want from this season. I'm happy to treat it as a pre season season, just let the rookies and young players develop, let Mayo and his coaches have time to develop (we're not going to change any time soon so may let him have a fair shot).