New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

JCTO

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Scapegoat a little perhaps, but at the end of the day injuries or not, the Broncos were getting hits on Brady with a 3 man rush. That's just not acceptable at all and it's not the first time this season by any stretch.

Hoping that BB can be similarly ruthless in trying to address some of the teams other deficiencies, like having a decent rb or field stretching wr would be nice.

There was nothing wrong with the tactics and adjustments on the oline. The players we have were getting beaten straight up and no coach could fix how bad they are. The firing is harsh and if we keep the same personnel it wont matter what coach we have for that Oline the same issues will arise next season.

The Broncos and most front 7's in the league that b1tch slapped our Oline were beating each one of them right off the line. Take Cannon for example yesterday he was so slow and unable to pass protect efficiently Broncos defenders were around him right off the snap.

We didn't have the protection for Brady this season and even in games we looked good that was all on Brady releasing quickly to Edelman. To blame an Oline coach on that performance or the season is stupid when the players we have are terrible. Even the guys we thought were good struggled.

Lets hope whoever takes over gets upgrades on that line. Whoever it is has a hard task ahead of them.

BizzyC

JCTO wrote: »

Scarnecchia wouldn't have even been able to anything with the abilities of the guys we have and the injuries we had.

I disagree, I think he would have done a better job.
Sure, we still wouldn't have had a run game, but we wouldn't have a 6th linemen entering the formation only to have miller behind his back before he was out of his stance....

BaronVon

It certainly wasn't made easy for him........

Jeff Howe ‏@jeffphowe
During DeGuglielmo's 2 seasons, Pats lost 3 captains (Mankins traded, Connolly retired, Wendell IR), drafted 4 in 4th RD, lost Solder to IR.

JaMarcusHustle

Kind of feel bad for him.

On one hand, sure there wasn't much improvement in individual performances compared to last year. But not sure how you can blame that on the line coach, especially when he's forced to give Cannon and Kline so many snaps when really they should just be relief guys. You're also putting Vollmer at a weaker position as a result.

Tough break for him but I guess the silver lining is that Bill knows the offensive line is an area of urgent attention and he's trying to do something about it. Sucks for Dave to be made culpable though.

eagle eye

The Patriots don't use scapegoats. The man was sacked because they don't think he is a good enough coach, it's that simple. We've had very poor years on defense and none of the coaches got the boot.

Having said that it's very hard to replace the best and not look like you haven't a clue I'd imagine.

We've had a lot of problems over the two years with the OL, wasn't just this year.

JaMarcusHustle

How much better could get have done though?

After some initial concerns in preseason and the first few weeks of the season last year, the line settled really well and had a good year. Obviously we ended up winning the Super Bowl with them, so he was doing something right. Goes to show that with a healthy selection of players to choose from, he can get that line performing to a championship standard.

Then this year, Solder goes on IR to start the year. So you have to move Vollmer out to left tackle, a position you yourself have claimed he struggles in. He's the only one you can put there because of Cannon's left foot injury meaning he can't play out left.

Then you've got Cannon himself who is a greased up turnstile at right tackle. He filled in admirably but unspectacularly on rotation last year, but now you're asking him to play the majority of snaps, so the only advantage he may have held in games - being able to come in with full strength and stamina on occasion - is taken away from him.

You've got Bryan Stork who had a very good rookie year going out with an injury and not looking anywhere near as good when he comes back. David Andrews looked impressive in his place, so why isn't Dave getting credit for that? If that was Scarnecchia plugging in an undrafted rookie at center (a position that oddsmakers give more importance to than any other except QB) and getting the performances out of him that he did, he'd be praised left, right and center about what he does with limited and unknown players. But I don't hear any praise for DeGuglielmo on that one.

Ryan Wendell was also put on IR after looking good last year. So you've got Josh Kline and rookie Shaq Mason trying to guard Brady and rum block.

It was a disaster of a year on the offensive line injury wise, I don't know DeGuglielmo can be blamed for that considering what he had to work with. The only investment we made in the line this year was 2 fourth rounders, one who struggled with injury, and a free agent in Waddle halfway through the year who wasn't good enough for Detroit.

I don't know what was expected tbh. Your going up against Miller, Ware, Wolfe, Barrett etc. It's not as if you can pick one to double block.

Vandango

eagle eye wrote: »

The Patriots don't use scapegoats. The man was sacked because they don't think he is a good enough coach, it's that simple. We've had very poor years on defense and none of the coaches got the boot.

Having said that it's very hard to replace the best and not look like you haven't a clue I'd imagine.

We've had a lot of problems over the two years with the OL, wasn't just this year.

I agree with that. Some players also need to go, but getting rid of the OL coach was the right move. Brady was hit a record number of times for a postseason QB and that should never be acceptable.

JaMarcusHustle

<Snip>

Poster site-banned for 2 weeks for ignoring Admin instruction.

tHB

Realalemadrid

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Then you've got Cannon himself who is a greased up turnstile at right tackle. He filled in admirably but unspectacularly on rotation last year, but now you're asking him to play the majority of snaps, so the only advantage he may have held in games - being able to come in with full strength and stamina on occasion - is taken away from him.

.

Cannon got a new 2 year 9m contract at the start of the season with a 3.2m bonus for signing of the back off his filling in in 2014. I'm looking for someone to blame as to why somebody so poor gets paid so much.

JCTO

eagle eye wrote: »

The Patriots don't use scapegoats. The man was sacked because they don't think he is a good enough coach, it's that simple. We've had very poor years on defense and none of the coaches got the boot.

Figure of speech but you cannot blame coaching on the mess and rotation that we have had as Oline personnel. What was he supposed to do? You can't turn sh1t into gold. We have some very poor linemen and no coach would do any better.

Having said that it's very hard to replace the best and not look like you haven't a clue I'd imagine.

Exactly and Scar probably wouldn't have gotten much better out of them this year.

We've had a lot of problems over the two years with the OL, wasn't just this year.

Have we though? We won a bowl last season. This seasons mess would make any coach look awful at his role. Injuries and having to rotate nothing but average guys in there made his job impossible

JCTO

Vandango wrote: »

I agree with that. Some players also need to go, but getting rid of the OL coach was the right move. Brady was hit a record number of times for a postseason QB and that should never be acceptable.

Ok 21 sacks last year and did anyone complain about him then after we won a bowl? No they didn't. 38 sacks this year and because we get beat up by the best defense in the league he is written off as garbage. I will bet you any amount of money there is more behind this but I love how some are saying oh yeah his fault for all the hits and sacks. Wasn't a huge deal last year was it and why? Lets look at this season:

3 rookies on the oline starting the season and then you have injuries on top of that.

LT
Sebastian Vollmer - Forever struggling with Injury
Cameron Fleming - Shouldn't be starting on any NFL team

LG
Shaq Mason - Rookie but hasn't exceled hopefully he will at some point
Josh Kline - See Fleming

C
Bryan Stork - Started well but then injury hit and he wasn't the same after
David Andrews - Rookie I would have put him ahead of Stork

RG
Josh Kline - See above
Tre Jackson - Rookie and like Mason didnt impress but too early to write him off

RT
Marcus Cannon - Big letdown
LaAdrian Waddle - Not that great and looked flat

Add to that we lost Solder and Wendell

BizzyC

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/25463330/why-the-patriots-still-have-to-be-the-favorites-in-the-afc-in-2017----and-beyond

Something to cheers us up...

Who do we see moving this off season?

I think losing Mayo is a must at this stage, too much money for his contributions in comparison to Collins and Hightower.

We should hopefully have very little roster turnover this year with some cap space to make some moves, OL has to be the no.1 priority for BB.
If we draft another injury prone DL as a "bargain" instead of paying for a real OL again, I'll be pretty ticked off.

eagle eye

Don't forget that our first pick in the draft will be at 60(at the earliest) so it's not like we are going to find a top tackle or guard sitting around that late.

BizzyC

Even so, I think at 60 we'll still be able to pick up better than Cannon or Kline.

I'm actually more hopeful for some moves in FA this season.
We have space under the cap to make some signings, with one major point of weakness and no other position taking a big hit.

We need new starters for the OL, and some better backup at LB & WR.

Vandango

JCTO wrote: »

Ok 21 sacks last year and did anyone complain about him then after we won a bowl? No they didn't. 38 sacks this year and because we get beat up by the best defense in the league he is written off as garbage. I will bet you any amount of money there is more behind this but I love how some are saying oh yeah his fault for all the hits and sacks. Wasn't a huge deal last year was it and why? Lets look at this season:

3 rookies on the oline starting the season and then you have injuries on top of that.

LT
Sebastian Vollmer - Forever struggling with Injury
Cameron Fleming - Shouldn't be starting on any NFL team

LG
Shaq Mason - Rookie but hasn't exceled hopefully he will at some point
Josh Kline - See Fleming

C
Bryan Stork - Started well but then injury hit and he wasn't the same after
David Andrews - Rookie I would have put him ahead of Stork

RG
Josh Kline - See above
Tre Jackson - Rookie and like Mason didnt impress but too early to write him off

RT
Marcus Cannon - Big letdown
LaAdrian Waddle - Not that great and looked flat

Add to that we lost Solder and Wendell

I agree with everything you said there, but I didn't say anything about Googe being garbage. I just feel he had to go after the terrible OL performances and the AFC title game was probably the straw that broke the camels back. He was pretty unlucky with injuries and some of the crap talent he inherited, but I don't think Bill is interested in hard luck stories.

JCTO

Vandango wrote: »

I agree with everything you said there, but I didn't say anything about Googe being garbage. I just feel he had to go after the terrible OL performances and the AFC title game was probably the straw that broke the camels back. He was pretty unlucky with injuries and some of the crap talent he inherited, but I don't think Bill is interested in hard luck stories.

I take it you meant Gug and I never said you did.

eagle eye

Every time I start thinking about the draft I get angry thinking about the first round pick. It's just fkn ludicrous that we had our first rounder taken off us.

AbusesToilets

I've a feeling the team will come to rue that lost pick in years to come, especially with Brady coming to the end of his career.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Given the knock down the NFL were given in the courts, had Kraft shown the same determination he did pre-SB, they'd have the picks back.

JCTO

I actually don't think the draft pick loss will have much impact. The odds of getting players 100% ready and up for the challenge to help Brady see out his career is going to be slim in this draft. We will have a better chance building our weaknesses in the FA anyways especially for a Bowl push next season and worry about the future next season.

StringerBell

Anyone looked into some projections for our cap room for next season yet?

Son Of A Vidic

Been up to my eyes these past few weeks with exams, training & work. So I hope ye don't mind me giving some belated thoughts on the AFC title game. We never play well in Denver at that altitude so I was expecting the loss. Our shockingly bad O line was a disgrace as most of us feared, they cost us the game and another Superbowl shot. But tbh, I never expected them to play so badly. That said and despite all that, it's a game we could have won at the end. So in many respects I'm proud of the team for their toughness in hanging in there and for the fight that they showed. And feck there's no tougher QB in this league than Brady, he took a record amount of shots & hits and he still kept fighting when most other QB would have been dropping into the foetal position.

DeGuglielmo moving on came as no surprise and I'm glad they had the sense not to extend him. Yes when he took over, he had a fair few O line wasters to deal with. But throughout the season, we saw repeated mistakes by the O line. In the AFC game itself, he failed to make any adjustments to improve Brady's chances and for me that's on the coaches shoulders. I also hope to see Canon, Fleming and Kline follow him out the door because imo, none of those are even worthy of being back ups. So once again we enter an off-season with the O line being a priority and Belcichick needs to have this issue sorted by next September.

Looking at the contract situation, I think we need to sort out Hightower, Collins and Butler and I hope they do before 2016. I couldn't careless about Jones staying or going back in September and he's done nothing to change my mind since then. In fact as a 1st round pick, I think we could really leverage a nice quality trade using him. And I'd like us to swap him out for a quality addition to the O line.

On the offensive off the ball, we need to get rid of Chandler and LaFell because neither of them contributed anything to the offense in 2015. We also need to get an effective running game back, because if you haven't got one, you're not keeping defenses honest and are undermining your own pass game. So hopefully we'll pick up a quality RB from the draft or FA. The AFC title game also took me back to Vereen , the guy caught every ball in the superbowl (11) and we let him go for the sake of saving 1/2 million a year. We certainly missed him in Denver because White's 5 catches from 16 targets was far from good enough. Having Vereen's talent in that game could have been the difference maker for Brady.

But that's all water under the bridge now. Looking on the positive side, we've a lot to look forward to for 2016. We were brutalised with injuries this year so I think we deserve a rub of the green for next year. Brady is as good as ever and I think he had a great season playing behind one of the worst O lines in the league. Gronk is not human and just can't be stopped, even when he isn't 100%. So roll on 2016 and the if key areas are addressed on the team, then I'll be really looking forward to a more successful run.

Son Of A Vidic

StringerBell wrote: »

Anyone looked into some projections for our cap room for next season yet?

I read somewhere, that the 2016 cap will fall within the $147 - $155 million dollar range. Looking at our roster right now, by cutting Mayo, Canon, LaFell, Chandler (TE) and maybe restructuring the likes of Amendola we could generate an extra $20 million in cap space. Of course we'll have to consider that some key players on the defensive side of the ball will be getting a chunk of that, if and when we start locking up some new contracts.

AbusesToilets

Beyond the obvious attention needed to the OL, I think that the offense as a whole could do with a bit of balancing. Brady isn't getting any younger and could really benefit from being able to ease the pressure with a competent running game. Tired of watching Brady killing himself to make throwing plays, it only takes one bad hit at this stage for his career to be over.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Having Lewis back (hopefully at 100%) will be a big addition. It'll feel like a new signing. He was a big loss, as he was making guys miss and turning 2yd gains (i.e. Bolden/Blount) into 6-7yds on first or second down. And he was huge as the 3rd down back as well (looking like a more dynamic Vereen).

Addressing the OL is the priority. Even a decent performance against the Broncos and the Pats are likely in the SB. Either free agency, draft, or improved coaching; it's has to pass protect and assist in the running game a lot better than '15.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Having Lewis back (hopefully at 100%) will be a big addition. It'll feel like a new signing. He was a big loss, as he was making guys miss and turning 2yd gains (i.e. Bolden/Blount) into 6-7yds on first or second down. And he was huge as the 3rd down back as well (looking like a more dynamic Vereen).

Addressing the OL is the priority. Even a decent performance against the Broncos and the Pats are likely in the SB. Either free agency, draft, or improved coaching; it's has to pass protect and assist in the running game a lot better than '15.

AbusesToilets

I'd be happy to get Morris in FA, quality player with a fantastic attitude.

Son Of A Vidic

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Having Lewis back (hopefully at 100%) will be a big addition. It'll feel like a new signing. He was a big loss, as he was making guys miss and turning 2yd gains (i.e. Bolden/Blount) into 6-7yds on first or second down. And he was huge as the 3rd down back as well (looking like a more dynamic Vereen).

Maybe it's my old age, but when I was speaking about Vereen yesterday, I completely forgot about Lewis (Ya, I don't know how that was possible). He was a fantastic edition to the offense and losing him proved to be huge, because we sure could have done with him Denver. Hard to say how he'll be next year because some players do need a full year under the belt to get back to 100%. Hopefully though Lewis won't need that, because having him fit and fully capable already significantly improves our offense for 2016.

Son Of A Vidic

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Tired of watching Brady killing himself to make throwing plays, it only takes one bad hit at this stage for his career to be over.

Just thinking back to what you said, we really were lucky that Brady got through the season alive with that 'protection' in front of him. No matter how good he is, it's crazy to have him making 40-50 pass attempts in a game. Next year I'd like to see us keeping his attempts south of the 35 attempts per game mark. Hopefully they'll be able to bring a run game to help him do that.

AbusesToilets

In many ways, I'd think Denver's current model would be one to look to. Brady is clearly in a better place than Manning, but a strong running game makes everything so much easier. Of course that would require McDaniels to deviate from his preferred playcalling...

StringerBell

A strong running game improves your passing game hugely though by opening up so many more possibilities and play actions! I think it is something to look at certainly, but it will require very big improvements in that O line, it would keep the D's honest and they wouldn't always be able to pin the ears back and just charge for Brady if there was a genuine running threat in the backfield.

That said I think dink and dunk will still be the main game plan of the offence next year unless I see something unusual in the draft/FA, but yet again that makes the O line the most crucial part to sort out

StringerBell

A strong running game improves your passing game hugely though by opening up so many more possibilities and play actions! I think it is something to look at certainly, but it will require very big improvements in that O line, it would keep the D's honest and they wouldn't always be able to pin the ears back and just charge for Brady if there was a genuine running threat in the backfield.

That said I think dink and dunk will still be the main game plan of the offence next year unless I see something unusual in the draft/FA, but yet again that makes the O line the most crucial part to sort out

paulie21

In talks to bring Scar back as OL coach

empacher

To be honest. Id like two impactfull veteran o line brought in. Im talking 5mil a season guys. First two picks in the draft going to the oline.

Can you imagine lewis behind an good oline. One of those aggresive lines that are pancaking lbs.

No point having a target in the later rounds. Take the best player avalible. You'll find more use then taking a sub optimal player and trying to mould them.

An elite oline. Gives an elite qb pocket time. Gives a very good wr and te group time to get open. Creates room for lewis and lets blount build up that heas of steam.

Lets the defense play more game mangment. Forces the the opposing offense to make plays, which can mean mistakes.

StringerBell

That first rounder being taken off us (with no fight) is really grating with me more and more each day of the off season.

eagle eye

paulie21 wrote: »

In talks to bring Scar back as OL coach

Looks like he is on the way back. Both sides have said they'd like the idea.

JCTO

I actually think we will find good solid FA to keep us going for a season. And with Scar back we should be fine hopefully. Or hopefully he can work his magic and give the current set of guys a good kick up the ass.

JaMarcusHustle

I know it's Tackles we need more than anything else but I see Jahri Evans has been released. Could be an option, though I'd be interested to hear what lifelong Saints fan and boards user Putin has to say about his performances the past couple of years.

Vandango

It would be great to have Scar back, but can't help wondering how things would have gone if he came back last September? Might have at least got home field advantage for the playoffs, if not gone all the way.

Son Of A Vidic

If Scar does come back they better get his succession right the next time he retires. And if they do recruit from outside, hopefully they won't bring in someone from a predominantly run based offense they way they did with the last guy. My only concern about Scar coming back is the likes of Cannon, the guy is useless and has to go, but Scar recruited him and he might think he can cure him.:(

eagle eye

I'm not sure we'll have to worry about that. I don't know why Scar has decided to come out of retirement but for a lot of folks it's a case that retirement is not all it's cracked up to be. A lot of people will tell you they miss the excitement of the everyday working life.

Son Of A Vidic

I'll be happy if Scar stays until he's pushing up daisies. But I will be praying he at least gets rid of that basket case Cannon. I don't know about the rest of ye, but I prefer Andrews at Center over Stork. Line play seemed to deteriorate when Andrews lost his solid starting role there. Stork also seems to be worryingly prone to concussions, so solidifying Andrews in the role seems a better move for me.

paulie21

Mayo retiring

AbusesToilets

Guess it's a more pleasant ending than him being cut by the team.

empacher

How does that effect the cap? Probably best for him. Body couldnt handle it after two very serious injuries. Smart choice. Have to say he went out at his best. Before his injuries he was one of the top lb in the nfl.

me89

empacher wrote: »

How does that effect the cap? Probably best for him. Body couldnt handle it after two very serious injuries. Smart choice. Have to say he went out at his best. Before his injuries he was one of the top lb in the nfl.

Saves about 7 million in cap space

BizzyC

It's as good a result as we could hope for really.

I liked Mayo a lot, but he was too much money this year vs his ability to produce due to injuries.
I was expecting a cut tbh, but at least this way he retires he stayed a Patriot to the end.

Son Of A Vidic

Sad news but we all knew that Mayo was unlikely to be coming back. And ignoring the obvious financial aspect, I think his Patella Tendon tear was the nail in the coffin for him, because you really couldn't ask for a worse injury to try and come back from. With the last three seasons ending on IR, I think that made up his mind to hang up the cleats.

But I'm glad that he's retiring as a Patriot, because there was really was no better leader on and off the field. He was a great role model to all in the locker room and took a lot of young bucks under his wing. A tackling machine in his prime, outside of Patriot fans, he never really got the wider NFL recognition he truly deserved.

He's one of the special Patriot players down the years, that I'll always raise a glass to for their service & dedication to the cause....

AbusesToilets

Wouldn't be surprised at all if he slotted in as a LB coach with the team. Be a great way to utilise his knowledge and be something of a golden handshake.

Vandango

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Wouldn't be surprised at all if he slotted in as a LB coach with the team. Be a great way to utilise his knowledge and be something of a golden handshake.

Would be great to have him come back in a coaching role. But from what I read, I get the impression he's going to be pursuing some of his business ventures in the immediate future.