New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

el Fenomeno

me89 wrote: »

Could be big changes this off-season,McDaniels is favourite for Browns job, will Tom be back next year? Van Noy will probably get big money somewhere and talk of D-Mac retiring

Also Joe Thuney is a UFA. We gave Mason a big contract recently, wonder will we do the same for Thuney who looks to be the better guard of the two? He might get a bigger offer elsewhere, I don't know if we'll tie up that much cap space in two big salary guards.

Jamie Collins will probably be out the door too as he looks for his last big contract.

BizzyC

KVN will be gone, DMac I think will stick around if we get close to another ring...if we were to win somehow I think he'd be gone.
Brady is going nowhere, he said 45 and he'll reach 45...at this point I think he'll try to just keep playing as long as it takes to overtake Brees on the regular season passing records.

I think we can afford some decline on D IF we can get an offence together. OLine & WR has to be the top priority for next season.
As good as our D has been this year, you cant win tough games if you cant run the ball or get a quick fire passing game going.

StringerBell

Our offence, Brady, has always covered the deficiencies of a bend don't break and generally weaker D. This season the offence has been brutal, never got going at all and given the playing personnel that left (not even Gronk, I mean AB and Flash) and what we have left on the roster and then the O line issues its not a surprise.

If we can make some good additions to help Brady next year then yeah we can still make a run but the sands of time are edging toward the end for Brady for sure and its a shame the weapons didn't work out this season because with this D we could have made a real run at the SB I think. Can't complain with the run the team has been on for close to two decades at this point and I have full faith next season will be better in terms of being really competitive in the post season.

I don't expect much from this January, if we had gotten the bye maybe put it up to the AFC title game but I still think the reliance on the D would have been too much at some stage. The Ravens are just such a strong team this season, and the Chiefs are not far behind them.

AbusesToilets

StringerBell wrote: »

Our offence, Brady, has always covered the deficiencies of a bend don't break and generally weaker D. This season the offence has been brutal, never got going at all and given the playing personnel that left (not even Gronk, I mean AB and Flash) and what we have left on the roster and then the O line issues its not a surprise.

If we can make some good additions to help Brady next year then yeah we can still make a run but the sands of time are edging toward the end for Brady for sure and its a shame the weapons didn't work out this season because with this D we could have made a real run at the SB I think. Can't complain with the run the team has been on for close to two decades at this point and I have full faith next season will be better in terms of being really competitive in the post season.

I don't expect much from this January, if we had gotten the bye maybe put it up to the AFC title game but I still think the reliance on the D would have been too much at some stage. The Ravens are just such a strong team this season, and the Chiefs are not far behind them.

I don't think his decline is that precipitous. It's been exacerbated this season because of the OL issues and WRs, coupled with Develin being out and losing Gronk. I don't think he helped things by skipping on extra practice in the offseason. He's still capable of top 10 play, if he has the tools to work with. For as bad as 2013 was with the WR core, they still managed to catch balls and get separation. It's pretty sad watching Brady stand in a clean pocket for 3-5 secs looking for someone to get free, only to toss it into the stands.

el Fenomeno

I don't think the offensive line is a huge concern - our main five when healthy are a good unit and that's been on display the last few games. The depth is obviously a concern when you're one injury away from someone like Newhouse taking meaningful snaps. Number one priority this off-season should be to find the money to keep Thuney, and to sign good quality backups and rotation guys. Karas is decent backup - someone of his quality to cover the other positions would be fine. I wonder if Cajuste will be any good.

TE and WR are the big areas this off-season. No one is getting open, but that's not to give Brady a free pass as at the end of the day, the guys we have are occasionally getting open and he's just missing them. Its just a lack of consistency and trust all round.

On defence, we'll lose Van Noy, Collins and McCourty IMO. Hightower will be a year older (and slower). So the LB group will need some starting additions. I'll be excited to see what Winovich will do with a years experience under his belt.

eagle eye

Hightower is only 29, hardly slowing down yet.

StringerBell

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't think his decline is that precipitous. It's been exacerbated this season because of the OL issues and WRs, coupled with Develin being out and losing Gronk. I don't think he helped things by skipping on extra practice in the offseason. He's still capable of top 10 play, if he has the tools to work with. For as bad as 2013 was with the WR core, they still managed to catch balls and get separation. It's pretty sad watching Brady stand in a clean pocket for 3-5 secs looking for someone to get free, only to toss it into the stands.

My post wasn't an attack on Brady or said anything about a precipitous decline?

There are loads of excuses to make for Brady this season, he hasn't been himself but he has had to deal with a lot of issues, ones you have mentioned and ones I have mentioned that have been for the most part beyond his control. It is just a fact that he is coming to the end of his career, and he will need to be given some offensive weapons next year to help him. He deserves nothing less, BB did try to give it to him this season and on paper the offence looked great, till the players with character issues displayed their character issues. They were a gamble and they obviously didn't work out. Develin has been a huge loss too I agree fully.

There is still time left for Brady to ride a team to a superbowl, but that time gets shorter each year obviously and you are only ever one bad hit away from it all being over anyway.

el Fenomeno

eagle eye wrote: »

Hightower is only 29, hardly slowing down yet.

I don't mean metaphorically slowing down - I mean literally, physically slowing down. Last year he looked done in the league physically after a number of knee injuries. He looks a bit healthier this year and makes up for it anyway with his smarts so maybe he's recovering, but if we lose Van Noy and Collins (which I assume we will on both counts) then he definitely needs help. His injury history is concerning.

I love the guy, but getting 15 games out of him this year has been remarkable.

BizzyC

Bentley has show a lot of promise at LB, I'm not overly concerned about the D yet...
Our secondary should still be in good shape, even if DMac retires, which buys a lot of leeway in the front 7.

I dont think our starting 5 at OL are good enough.
Yes they can get Brady a little time when they are all there, but they cant create any space for a run game.
Until a defence needs to start committing more men to the box, or we get better receivers who can create some separation, we'll be in trouble.

ScrubsfanChris

Season finishes one game early.

me89

That goal line stand for the Titans before half time changed the game.

Surely it can't all end like that?

Interesting off season ahead.

paulie21

Really been put out of our misery. Chiefs would of destroyed us. Offence has been a disaster all season, Edelman playing through injury no other WR stepped up when it mattered, Gronk retiring was the biggest lost they had need to draft a half decent replacement somehow

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

As I said in the game thread I don't see Tom ending his NE career like that. He was so badly let down by the players surrounding him it was unreal. O-Line - dirt. Receivers - dirt. Run game - dirt. Offensive play-calling - dirt. Absolutely nothing to work with. I don't place any blame at his feet whatsoever, he wasn't at his best but how could he be with what he was working with.

Regardless of what happens him he's the greatest of all time, in any sport, and I honestly don't say that lightly. What he has accomplished is outrageous. I've only been properly watching football for a few years now but he (and NE) have given me so many great memories. From destroying the Legion of Boom in the SB, the 25 point comeback, 3 consecutive SB appearances, an MVP season, all the remarkable games in the regular season and postseason, along with smashing almost every record he's eligible for. He's a legend of the game and will be talked about in 50 years time the same way we talk about the likes of Maradona and Muhammed Ali now. I pray this isn't the end of the road for him in NE, but if one man can leave any way he wants it's him.

Hugely disappointing season but we've been spoiled recently. The rebuild begins. On to next year.

el Fenomeno

That 2nd round pick for Sanu's 218 yards in 9 games is looking mighty rough right now.

ScrubsfanChris

Brady says he loves playing in New England and says hopefully retirement is unlikely.
Sounds alot like in the unlikely scenario he doesn't get an extension he would retire.

eagle eye

Well all I can think from what I've seen of Tom Brady since he arrived in New England is that this loss will fire him up and all this talk of the end of a dynasty will drive him bat **** crazy.
I expect to see him back in New England next year unless he goes where Josh goes.

decies

I appear to be in minority with a tougher schedule next season and a while lot of problems to be fixed offensively . I’d rather see Brady retire a patriot with at least another divisional title then just risk SOME fans turn on him if it really goes south offensively. IMHO time to celebrate now the Brady legacy .

Shedite27

Yeah I’d like to see Brady walk away now, let Bill a couple of years getting a new QB up to speed. Losing both in the same year will be tough.

I’ve a feeling in a year or two we’ll be thinking “getting 12 wins from that team was a great achievement” rather than “losing in the first round of the playoffs was a disaster”

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Titans would run all over us. Tannenhill is playing excellently this year.

I was half way right

AbusesToilets

You guys are crazy thinking Brady should walk away, he's going nowhere, and nor should he. I'm excited for the schedule season, the cupcake start to this one fed into an unrealistic view of the team.

I hope Josh goes. I've been torn on it for awhile. He has come up with amazing schemes over the years, but last night showcased some of his worst tendencies imo. Being too cute when going with a simpler option, and ignoring strategies that are working. See James White disappearing for large stretches of the year. He, and Brady too perhaps, have failed this year to build an offense that worked with the personnel we had. Injuries and shenanigans aside, that's not good enough.

I want some new energy offensively. Address TE, there's seemingly a surge of Gronk style guys coming through college now, so I'd have hope we can check that box. Find a WR that can get separation. I think the team had an idea to use large, physical players to win contested catches this season, but I feel everyone would agree it wasn't a success. There's no explosiveness in across the offense, at all. Dorsett is probably the only "fast" guy, and we saw he couldn't beat the coverage deep last night.

That brings me to the last point, Sony needs replacing. He's just way too slow and ineffective breaking tackles. He's overly reliant on heavy blocking to be successful, which telegraphs our playcalling too much imo. Even when breaks on the outside, he looks slow. Not good enough for his draft position.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

I think 1 season is too early is to definitively judge any player but all the signs are pointing to Harry being a flop. Hugely disappointing.

Also a 1st round pick needs to spend on a TE if available. A great TE trumps a great WR imo, they're a lot more versatile and better for picking up 1st downs. WR needs to addressed too to compliment a good TE.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

I think 1 season is too early is to definitively judge any player but all the signs are pointing to Harry being a flop. Hugely disappointing.

I think too early to say a flop. He was on IR, and had injuries during camp as well I believe. I'd like to give him time to get fit and have a full run at it.

This game summed up the season. The offense was not good enough. It was another season of bringing in anyone that was available at WR cause the talent wasn't there. Neither Miami, nor Titans really rushed more than 4 (sometimes just 3) and dropped into coverage. Doubled teamed Edelman, and even with time, nobody could get open.

Now to be fair, and I mentioned this before, winning the last 11 AFC East titles in a row, played in the last 8 AFC Championships in a row, played in 4 of the last 5 SBs. When you pick at the bottom of the draft for over a decade, it catches up on you. Amazing that they've done what they've done.

I totally agree on TE. As disappointing as WR has been, there was zero production from the TE position, in receiving and running the ball, and pass protection.

There's quite a number of free agents on defense, so the offense will have to improve a lot for next year.

If Brady goes, he goes. He owes nothing to the Pats or the fans. A sporting hero for me. We had the greatest of all time for 20 years. Hope he comes back and finishes his career in NE.

Shedite27

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

I think 1 season is too early is to definitively judge any player but all the signs are pointing to Harry being a flop. Hugely disappointing.

Also a 1st round pick needs to spend on a TE if available. A great TE trumps a great WR imo, they're a lot more versatile and better for picking up 1st downs. WR needs to addressed too to compliment a good TE.

Watching Metcalf tonight, that’s what a first round WR should look like

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Shedite27 wrote: »

Watching Metcalf tonight, that’s what a first round WR should look like

Saw a comment earlier that said that said Harry turned out to be what many people feared Metcalf would become.
Heard someone else say - think it was Rex Ryan - that he (Harry) looks more like a TE playing WR. Perhaps he could be converted :pac:

StringerBell

Call me nuts if you want but I wouldn't be writing Harry off yet. Interested to see how he goes next season, hopefully he stays healthy

eagle eye

The lad was a injured for most of the season. We don't know if he is even fully healthy. Far too early to be throwing him under the bus.

Shedite27

Not writing him off by any means, but knowing we needed a WR, when metcalf was on the board, that looks a miss

j8wk2feszrnpao

Shedite27 wrote: »

Not writing him off by any means, but knowing we needed a WR, when metcalf was on the board, that looks a miss

He was the 9th WR picked.
Too early to make a call on Harry, but for me, Michel has been a total miss. Not a 1st round calibre RB, unless the blocking opens a hole, he doesn’t do much. A better disappointment than Harry to date.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Fwiw I'm not absolutely not writing Harry off. I just don't believe in calling a player a boom/bust after 1 season unless they've been particularly good/bad. At the end of the day he hasn't looked great thus far, whatever criticism he's getting he probably deserves, but he will more than likely have another 2 seasons to turn it all around. As a pats fan I really hope he does.

el Fenomeno

From what we've seen so far, two 1sts and a 2nd for Michel, Harry and Sanu looks to be fairly poor value.

eagle eye

The OL was a big issue for me. They couldn't open any gaps and there wasn't much blocking going on beyond the line either.
Sony Michel averaged 4.5 yards every time he got his hands on the rock last season but this year it was 3.7 ypc. I think the OL is responsible for that.
I think Michel is still a very grateful if back.
So that's Michel and Harry I'm defending now by the looks of things.

el Fenomeno

I completely forgot we drafted Damien Harris in the 3rd round until I read his name just now. I imagine he was insurance to Michel that we never needed seeing as Michel stayed healthy. I wonder will he have any kind of impact next year.

AbusesToilets

eagle eye wrote: »

The OL was a big issue for me. They couldn't open any gaps and there wasn't much blocking going on beyond the line either.
Sony Michel averaged 4.5 yards every time he got his hands on the rock last season but this year it was 3.7 ypc. I think the OL is responsible for that.
I think Michel is still a very grateful if back.
So that's Michel and Harry I'm defending now by the looks of things.

Michel isn't good enough for his draft position. Henry, Fournette, Barkley, those are rbs worth a 1st rd pick (even what was basically a 2nd rd pick). Sony is totally reliant on his OL. Most rbs depend heavily on OL, but with Sony, it's all or nothing. On top of that, he has no speed on the outside. He made a decent bounce early on, and was easily caught. He looks no quicker than White or Burkhead, both of whom I'd have as being more elusive to boot.

He's also failed to perform as a catcher. I had big hopes for him pushing on this season, given he'd have a full training camp to get up to speed. He was lauded as being a solid receiving option in college, but he's been dismal.

Christy42

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Michel isn't good enough for his draft position. Henry, Fournette, Barkley, those are rbs worth a 1st rd pick (even what was basically a 2nd rd pick). Sony is totally reliant on his OL. Most rbs depend heavily on OL, but with Sony, it's all or nothing. On top of that, he has no speed on the outside. He made a decent bounce early on, and was easily caught. He looks no quicker than White or Burkhead, both of whom I'd have as being more elusive to boot.

He's also failed to perform as a catcher. I had big hopes for him pushing on this season, given he'd have a full training camp to get up to speed. He was lauded as being a solid receiving option in college, but he's been dismal.

Fournette and Barkley didn't come at low first round picks and Henry was a bust when he was at Michel's point in his career. Getting one of them without a high draft position tends to be unrealistic.

AbusesToilets

Christy42 wrote: »

Fournette and Barkley didn't come at low first round picks and Henry was a bust when he was at Michel's point in his career. Getting one of them without a high draft position tends to be unrealistic.

I understand the cost of a rb of that caliber, my point is that Sony is 3-5rd talent. Of the RBs we've had this decade, he might be the least capable. i would start any of them ahead of him.

Foxtrol

Guys/gals, I come in peace with an outside perspective.

I was a bit surprised by the Harry draft pick as a fit for the Patriots. He is a good player but his issue at a college level was that he didn't get separation and that is generally what Brady (and most QBs like). I think next year he should clean up his drops, which weren't really a problem in college, but I can't see him suddenly taking a big jump in getting separation. They need to shift their game plan approach to make the most of his talents.

On Michel, I think some are being a bit harsh. I don't like picking a RB in the first round but what is done is done and he is still a good player. His biggest issues were the loss of all your FBs and more importantly the failings of the wider offense. Because teams didn't respect the passing game of the Patriots they were able to load the box on Michel. He saw the 7th highest loaded boxes out of all RBs in the league, a 7% increase on last year, and against the Titans saw a crazy 50% loaded box. He'll likely never be worth a first round pick but he should bounce back next year if the rest of the offense improves.

Inquitus

Did the Pats miss a trick not being ruthless, the loss of Jimmy Garoppolo to the 49ers after the 2016 season robbed them of a future franchise QB if Brady truly is in decline, I think it harsh to base that on one season mind, with limited WR options.

el Fenomeno

Inquitus wrote: »

Did the Pats miss a trick not being ruthless, the loss of Jimmy Garoppolo to the 49ers after the 2016 season robbed them of a future franchise QB if Brady truly is in decline, I think it harsh to base that on one season mind, with limited WR options.

There's no guarantee we'd have gotten to a Super Bowl with Garoppolo, let alone win #6.

Brady got to two Super Bowls since, winning 1. We're now at the end of the third season, a 12-4 record and another AFC East title despite under performing.

I'd say the right decision was made.

StringerBell

Well, of course Brady is in decline. The extent of that decline is kind of exaggerated this season though with everything. He is still capable of championship level play and though it will always be a case of what if with Jimmy and I'd like to see the 9ers win it all this year now we out I think there was no way to cut Brady at that point. Just timing really is all, sure you never known Jimmy could end up back at New England sometime down the line.

If Brady wasn't Brady I think Jimmy would have been promoted but Brady is Brady. There is nobody else I would ever like to see as QB1 for the pats. He is the greatest. The achievements since the trade have more than justified the decision at the time now whatever happens with Brady this year.

I worry that though I think all parties would like Brady to return it won't happen due to the time, I don't think BB will give him a 3 year deal and I don't know if Brady will take a 1 which is what I assume he will be offered. If he goes I see him ending up in LA most likely, with a potential shock move to the Dolphins a possibility but a real outside bet because I like to think push comes to shove he won't stay in the AFC East if it isn't for the patriots.

ipitydafool

Yeah I didn't realize that Brady's contract is up and interesting to hear he wont be discounting down what he has done before and what he ask's for. Pretty sure he will get a decent 2 year offer off another team in free agency even if in decline and 42. Interesting off season ahead for Patriots.

eagle eye

Brady's options are limited because he wants to win. He isn't going to a team that has no hope of contending for a Superbowl.
If he didn't want to win he'd be retired by now.

bruschi

I dont see Brady going anywhere else either. At this stage, he is only still going for the simple allure of winning a superbowl. there arent many teams who are capable of winning who need a QB. Garropolo came too soon, no way he sits behind for 3 or 4 years. Move had to be made, of for nothing else bu to not destabilise the roster. The way it made a mess of things in Green Bay with the handover from Favre to Rodgers was a disaster and it could have been similar in New England.

I think the roster is in poor shape though. Limited options, a large amount of older players and also a lot of players up for free agency. I think the window is closing very quickly and unless something major happens in the off season, it will shut completely on one of the greatest runs ever in sport.

Shedite27

Not many teams that are capable of winning soon + need a QB. Maybe Chicago? Raiders?

Foxtrol

Shedite27 wrote: »

Not many teams that are capable of winning soon + need a QB. Maybe Chicago? Raiders?

Chargers. They need to fill their new stadium and if they ever get over their injury issues have a good core on both sides of the ball. Brady gets to go back to California, would be great for Giselle, and the TB brand.

ELM327

TB either plays in New England or doesnt play at all IMO.
Ironically his erstwhile backup plays on one of the teams he may have played for given he's a big Montana fan.

Christy42

ELM327 wrote: »

TB either plays in New England or doesnt play at all IMO.
Ironically his erstwhile backup plays on one of the teams he may have played for given he's a big Montana fan.

Who knows. I know his dad mentioned they ripped up their season passes when they passed on him in the draft and Brady can hold a grudge (I think they went after a different QB in the draft).

Shedite27

Foxtrol wrote: »

Chargers. They need to fill their new stadium and if they ever get over their injury issues have a good core on both sides of the ball. Brady gets to go back to California, would be great for Giselle, and the TB brand.

Makes sense for the reasons you mention, but Rivers-Brady is nowhere near enough of an upgrade to get them another 5 wins

Foxtrol

Shedite27 wrote: »

Makes sense for the reasons you mention, but Rivers-Brady is nowhere near enough of an upgrade to get them another 5 wins

Chargers lost 7 one score games this season (a crazy 33 one score games since 2015).

Even outside of an overall improvement at QB, if Brady is as clutch as most believe then he'd turn many of those loses into wins just with his play at the end of games.

BizzyC

I think the criticism of Michel is harsh at this point, he's come into a team without any blocking. Aside from a franchise back like Barkley/Elliot or a power back like prime Blount or Henry, I think any RB would have struggled to get consistent yards.
He hasn't reach Maroney levels yet, until we get him in an offence with a working O-Line the jury is still out.
Sanu was definitely overpaid. I expect him to be better next year, but he'll never be worth a 2nd round pick.
Harry isn't looking great IMO. I know he's been injured, but aside from separation his drops are really concerning. He was pegged as the big body guy who was going to leverage defenders and reel in the ball, but he's getting out-leveraged by smaller guys and dropping open passes.

I think a change at OC would be the best result at this point. McDaniels had some good years, but as soon as his goto scheme doesn't work he can't adapt the gameplan.
BB doesn't typically do it, but I'd like to see an external OC hired. We need someone who has worked in more than 1 system.

ELM327

I think with the likes of Sanu and Michel they are always going to be contributors but they are not good value for the picks we spent on them.

When you're behind an OL including Newhouse at tackle and excluding your main C from a year ago along with your lead blocking fullback, you can't blame the RB (or the QB) for getting hit behind the line. For gods sake we were playing with an LB at fullback.
It's on the OL and the lack of a receiving corps. I don't think you can blame mcdaniels , he did very well to get this team to 12-4 and if they had not to play in the wildcard game they may have gone to the conference title game.