New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

eagle eye

BizzyC wrote:

Harry isn't looking great IMO. I know he's been injured, but aside from separation his drops are really concerning. He was pegged as the big body guy who was going to leverage defenders and reel in the ball, but he's getting out-leveraged by smaller guys and dropping open passes.

Do you remember another rookie who we could all see had loads of talent having my issues with drops? He wasn't a first round pick but Julian Edelman had huge issues holding onto the ball his first two seasons.

ELM327

He came in as a low pick and a converted QB though, some drops in year 1-2 would have been acceptable.
Harry comes in as a high pick big body WR

Earleybird

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you remember another rookie who we could all see had loads of talent having my issues with drops? He wasn't a first round pick but Julian Edelman had huge issues holding onto the ball his first two seasons.

He still does from time to time unfortunately.

StringerBell

Shedite27 wrote: »

Makes sense for the reasons you mention, but Rivers-Brady is nowhere near enough of an upgrade to get them another 5 wins

Eh, yeah it is.

ELM327

StringerBell wrote: »

Eh, yeah it is.

Rivers to 43 year old brady in a new team and system though?

StringerBell

ELM327 wrote: »

Rivers to 43 year old brady in a new team and system though?

Yeah I think so, River's to Brady even now is still a pretty big upgrade in my eyes and I am certain Brady would be given a lot of leeway in terms of play calling etc so would be doing what was familiar to him and working with new personnel is absolutely nothing new at all either.

He would have better players in the skill positions than this season for example and I don't see any reason he would struggle to adapt. He has been doing it 20 years consistently. He is on his way down in his career but the drop off is nowhere near as pronounced as it is being made out.

StringerBell

Going off his Instagram post Tom is definitely not calling it a day anyway so hopefully a deal can be agreed for him to stay where he belongs

ELM327

Just saw it on FB too. I'm relatively sure now he'll be back.
I think it would be prudent now, or next year , if there's a good QB prospect on the board when we are picking , that we draft him as a backup and prospect future qb1 - ala rodgers in GB

StringerBell

Yeah it would have been ideal to be drafting Jimmy either last year or this year. Maybe they can pull out another diamond though

StringerBell

For anyone wanting happier memories sky have the 2014 America's game on now.

el Fenomeno

ELM327 wrote: »

Just saw it on FB too. I'm relatively sure now he'll be back.
I think it would be prudent now, or next year , if there's a good QB prospect on the board when we are picking , that we draft him as a backup and prospect future qb1 - ala rodgers in GB

Jake Fromm declared today, seems like the type of high character guy that Bill would like. We've drafted a few guys from Georgia recently, I imagine Bill is well connected there.

eagle eye

el Fenomeno wrote:

Jake Fromm declared today, seems like the type of high character guy that Bill would like. We've drafted a few guys from Georgia recently, I imagine Bill is well connected there.

Only problem is Fromm a s never going to make it in the NFL.

el Fenomeno

eagle eye wrote: »

Only problem is Fromm a s never going to make it in the NFL.

You say that like it's a fact?

eagle eye

el Fenomeno wrote:

You say that like it's a fact?

Yes, seen lots of him. No chance, doesn't have the poise in the pocket, doesn't have great arm strength, not great under pressure either.

el Fenomeno

eagle eye wrote: »

Yes, seen lots of him. No chance, doesn't have the poise in the pocket, doesn't have great arm strength, not great under pressure either.

Pretty brazen to state it as fact. What's your record like when it comes to predicting college QB success in the NFL?

Itssoeasy

I can understand that tom Brady want to keep playing but I've seen a quote from him(my have been from instagram ) that feels he still have more to prove which with all due respect is a weird statement to make for someone with the records and accolades he's won in his nailed on HOF career. I'm just worried if he carries on playing too long he'll tarnish even slightly his legacy.

StringerBell

That's his mind set, he needs to prove it over and over.

eagle eye

el Fenomeno wrote:

Pretty brazen to state it as fact. What's your record like when it comes to predicting college QB success in the NFL?

Well we used to do a Binky thing on here and I have a very good record as far as QBs are concerned. I remember saying that Winston and Mariota were overrated. I called Derek Carr the best QB in his draft class when everybody was high on Bridgewater and Bortles. I had Jimmy G ahead of those two as well.
Of course I was wrong about Tebow but it was more about his attitude than his skills. I believed that his desire and belief would overcome his poor mechanics.
I was high on Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson in their year.

Last year I said I felt that Kyler Murray wouldn't make it, I said I didn't fancy Daniel Jones either. I thought, and still do think, that Dwayne Haskins is the best prospect since Andrew Luck. We'll have to wait and see how those work out.

el Fenomeno

eagle eye wrote: »

Well we used to do a Binky thing on here and I have a very good record as far as QBs are concerned.

Well then Fromm really shouldn't waste his time at all with this football stuff..!

On a scale of Patrick Mahomes to Sean Mannion, where would you rank him?

eagle eye wrote:

Imo Mahomes is not going to make it. We'll see over time and Andy Reid obviously has confidence in him or that trade would not have happened but I'm not a fan based on his time in college.

eagle eye wrote:

This year the QB that stands out to me as guaranteed to make it in the NFL is Sean Mannion.

eagle eye

el Fenomeno wrote:

On a scale of Patrick Mahomes to Sean Mannion, where would you rank him?

You'll notice I didn't have real conviction in my thoughts about Mahomes.
Sean Mannion hasn't been out of work since he was drafted, just unlucky that the Rams had the no.1 pick and took Goff, and then goes to the Vikings to sit behind the highly paid Cousins.
I do have real conviction about Fromm.

el Fenomeno

eagle eye wrote: »

You'll notice I didn't have real conviction in my thoughts about Mahomes.
Sean Mannion hasn't been out of work since he was drafted, just unlucky that the Rams had the no.1 pick and took Goff, and then goes to the Vikings to sit behind the highly paid Cousins.
I do have real conviction about Fromm.

How much conviction was there for the rest of these?

eagle eye wrote:

I think Barkley is the best and could go on to be an elite QB at the next level.

eagle eye wrote:

Landry Jones is another who looks like he has all the tools be be excellent at the next level.

eagle eye wrote:

I'd be more inclined to wait and make sure to get one of Brandon Weedon or even take a really big gamble and take Kellen Moore who could be Drew Brees 2.0.

eagle eye wrote:

I know Tebow is not the type of QB that generally becomes a superstar in the NFL, but he is a freak of nature, his size/strength and athleticism and his arm are all fantastic. I personally think he will become one of the greatest QB's in the NFL.

eagle eye wrote:

I really rate Jimmy Clausen and I think he is going to have a long career in the NFL.

eagle eye wrote:

If Nick Florence was 3 inches taller he would be no.2 for me and I'll still rank him pretty highly.

Christy42

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I can understand that tom Brady want to keep playing but I've seen a quote from him(my have been from instagram ) that feels he still have more to prove which with all due respect is a weird statement to make for someone with the records and accolades he's won in his nailed on HOF career. I'm just worried if he carries on playing too long he'll tarnish even slightly his legacy.

Screw the legacy. He loves playing football. Let him play for as long as he can. Don't get this leaving on a high nonsense for stars. Nice and all but if you still love doing something you shouldn't stop. It'll happen when he is obviously not good enough. He will either get benched or stop enjoying himself.

eagle eye

el Fenomeno wrote:

How much conviction was there for the rest of these?

Pointless dealing with somebody who just quotes without reference.

Who was better than Matt Barkley or Landry Jones in their draft class?

I had already admitted that I was wrong about Tebow.

Why did you leave out the bit about Sam Bradford if you found the Clausem thing? Obviously it doesn't suit your agenda.

el Fenomeno

eagle eye wrote: »

Pointless dealing with somebody who just quotes without reference.

Who was better than Matt Barkley or Landry Jones in their draft class?

I had already admitted that I was wrong about Tebow.

Why did you leave out the bit about Sam Bradford if you found the Clausem thing? Obviously it doesn't suit your agenda.

Well the discussion was on drafting an heir to Brady this year, and I casually mentioned that another QB declared in the past few hours who was of good character and from a school we've drafted from more than others recently.

That was all, I didn't proclaim him a superstar or the next heir apparent, just put him forward as an option and someone we could look at.

But you swanned in with your sarcastic "the only problem with that is he's shít" basically and had the arrogance to say it was an absolute fact.

So I thought I'd highlight that when it comes to predicting how players will work out - even for someone who self-proclaims to have "a very good record" at this - it's still a glorified crapshoot.

j8wk2feszrnpao

el Fenomeno, that was brilliant/hilarious
"a very good record" - One of the funniest things I've seen written on Boards :P

ELM327

el Fenomeno wrote: »

Well the discussion was on drafting an heir to Brady this year, and I casually mentioned that another QB declared in the past few hours who was of good character and from a school we've drafted from more than others recently.

That was all, I didn't proclaim him a superstar or the next heir apparent, just put him forward as an option and someone we could look at.

But you swanned in with your sarcastic "the only problem with that is he's shít" basically and had the arrogance to say it was an absolute fact.

So I thought I'd highlight that when it comes to predicting how players will work out - even for someone who self-proclaims to have "a very good record" at this - it's still a glorified crapshoot.

Bill likes to draft from Georgia, lets see if he's still on the board.
As I say, we should really be taking a high pick QB soon

Foxtrol

el Fenomeno wrote: »

Well the discussion was on drafting an heir to Brady this year, and I casually mentioned that another QB declared in the past few hours who was of good character and from a school we've drafted from more than others recently.

That was all, I didn't proclaim him a superstar or the next heir apparent, just put him forward as an option and someone we could look at.

But you swanned in with your sarcastic "the only problem with that is he's shít" basically and had the arrogance to say it was an absolute fact.

So I thought I'd highlight that when it comes to predicting how players will work out - even for someone who self-proclaims to have "a very good record" at this - it's still a glorified crapshoot.

Bringing the receipts :pac::pac::pac:

For QB evaluation based on their opinion from college you even missed eagle eye's claims about Mike White during preseason this year.

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd love to see them throw Mike White into a couple of games in the fourth quarter. That would show Dak that they might just go without him and see how he reacts to it, they might even get lucky and find they have a better QB on their roster.

This is the Mike White who the Cowboys cut 2 weeks later and spent then season on the Jets practice squad. A very good record indeed

eagle eye

ELM327 wrote: »

Bill likes to draft from Georgia, lets see if he's still on the board.
As I say, we should really be taking a high pick QB soon

I'm not sure we need one, I like what I've seen of Stidham to this point.

BizzyC

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you remember another rookie who we could all see had loads of talent having my issues with drops? He wasn't a first round pick but Julian Edelman had huge issues holding onto the ball his first two seasons.

Wasn't a first round pick, wasn't a wide receiver, was drafted as a utility player who could learn WR and took several seasons to become a contributor on offence.... you didn't pick a great comparison there vs a 1st round WR who should be a day 1 contributor.
As I said though, it's not just the drops, it's also that we're not seeing him use his body and leverage like you'd expect to see/he was lauded as doing so well in college.

ELM327

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm not sure we need one, I like what I've seen of Stidham to this point.

The pick 6 against NYJ? :cool:

StringerBell

Sad to say but the more I think about it, the more I think that's the last we see of Brady as a patriot. I lean strongly now to him playing his football somewhere else in 2020.

eagle eye

StringerBell wrote:

Sad to say but the more I think about it, the more I think that's the last we see of Brady as a patriot. I lean strongly now to him playing his football somewhere else in 2020.

I don't think so. I really believe that he tests the market and the Patriots pay him the best offer. I think that agreement is already in place but obviously cannot be talked about.

The_Honeybadger

Cannot picture him in another uniform, it would be so strange to see.

Chargers / Raiders may offer him more money than the Pats, there may be other teams like the Panthers interested too. It will come down to where he wants to be then. I doubt money is his main motivator.

StringerBell

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't think so. I really believe that he tests the market and the Patriots pay him the best offer. I think that agreement is already in place but obviously cannot be talked about.

I'm on the mobile now but I will flesh out my thought process on this when I have my laptop later on today, or when I'm bored in work tomorrow!

I do hope you're right but the more I think about it the less likely it seems for a while bunch of reasons

StringerBell

Delighted for vrabel again too last night, and considering my hate for the ravens it wasn't a bad night at all at all

Edit: oh and earl Thomas after the smack he talked

j8wk2feszrnpao

StringerBell wrote: »

Edit: oh and earl Thomas after the smack he talked

Henry swatted him away at one point, it was man v boy.

Enjoyable watching this round of games with the Pats out. No need to worry about opponents......although I wish I had to worry :P

Lost a very close game to the Titans, could have gone to Baltimore with a chance, but not sure we could have ran the ball as well to dominate the game as well as the Titans did.

AbusesToilets

Was very happy to see the Ravens lose. I can't stand that gimmicky offense. Happy for Tannenhill, his redemption story this year is great.

paulie21

Looks like Josh staying as OC as Browns hire Vikings guy

ScrubsfanChris

paulie21 wrote: »

Looks like Josh staying as OC as Browns hire Vikings guy

Not sure how to feel about this.
On the one hand it now looks like Brady will stay now as his mate is still in the job. On the other the offense looked bereft of ideas with Josh in charge this year.

Christy42

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Was very happy to see the Ravens lose. I can't stand that gimmicky offense. Happy for Tannenhill, his redemption story this year is great.

Interestingly the Titans have launched their own gimmicky offense for the post season. Complete ball control with Henry and simply rely on the defense (which I hadn't thought was that good before) to win games. Two games where the defense has dominated and not gotten the plaudits imo.

Tannehill (after playing well in the season) now has two post season wins with under 100 yards passing in each, in part due to this strategy. Will be interesting to see what happens if they need the offense to put up numbers at any point.

dh1985

Think if McDaniels stays is a good thing. To be fair to him he has delivered for a long time with the Patriots. And although things fizzled out this year he was dealing with a weak enough support cast. It's a major pity that Gordon and Brown didn't work out. The Patriots in the past have been slow to give Brady real deep weapons. They did this year but the just didn't work out as planned with those two.
I also think Brady has a little left in the tank to offer new England. Even with the poor protection in the titans game he did put.some balls in areas that not many other qbs would. And the hail Mary showed that his arm strength is good still. Didn't think he would have ever been able to throw that far at 32 not alone 42 tbh.
One problem I see with the Patriots as successful as they have been is they seem to be poor in the draft. Ok the get some good picks like gronk etc but they more often than not get duds that do nothing and then rely on free agents and trades etc. Even of they are in the lower ends of the rounds they just seem to have a poor conversion rate with successful picks. Maybe I am been harsh but that's how I see it

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Don't think JMcD was the problem at all. He's been nothing short of phenomenol for us for years. This season he just had nothing to work with. We looked good at the beginning of the season when he had weapons, but when JG and AB left, along with JE getting banged up we began to look very flat. Not his fault at all imo.

Christy42

Edelman arrest seems minor enough but still seems like something he shouldn't be getting himself involved in.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Christy42 wrote: »

Edelman arrest seems minor enough but still seems like something he shouldn't be getting himself involved in.

Jumping on a vehicle. I’m guessing some booze invoked.
He’s almost 34, not 24. If that’s as bad as the off season gets, I’ll be happy.

StringerBell

He was on the tear with Dola. As soon as I heard he was drinking with Amendola it made perfect sense.

On Josh staying if he stays....I think that's a good thing, with the pieces to work with Josh is an excellent OC and he and Brady have a great relationship so it would be a plus in the Brady staying column.

Itssoeasy

What the hell was Scott zolak up to last night ? He seemed to be tweeting up a storm during the chiefs game.

AbusesToilets

StringerBell wrote: »

He was on the tear with Dola. As soon as I heard he was drinking with Amendola it made perfect sense.

On Josh staying if he stays....I think that's a good thing, with the pieces to work with Josh is an excellent OC and he and Brady have a great relationship so it would be a plus in the Brady staying column.

Hopefully Jules can convince Danny to come back. We never should have left him walk. One of the best WRs we've ever had imo.

I was really disappointed in the scheme they (didn't) implemented this year. Even in bad years, 2006, 2013, they managed to get something going. McD really needs to figure something out, quit being so damn cute. It's like Rian Johnson is the OC at times, all in on subverting expectations.

StringerBell

StringerBell wrote: »

I'm on the mobile now but I will flesh out my thought process on this when I have my laptop later on today, or when I'm bored in work tomorrow!

I do hope you're right but the more I think about it the less likely it seems for a while bunch of reasons

Just coming back to this now sorry, so he has sold his house, his personal trainer and business partner has also put his home up for sale, or has sold it not sure with Alex. When signing the contract extension he ensured that the final year would become voided and he would become an unrestricted free agent for the first time in his career. He seems to be unwilling to give the home town discount anymore. He is either wanting to at least test the market, or he is trying to force BB hand in terms of recruitment.

He wants to win, I don't think money is the main factor in his thinking. When you look at the work that needs to be done with the Patriots offence, do you think he thinks they will get the work done to put him in the best position to do this? Will the Patriot organisation change their (BB) way of doing things for Tom Brady, even though he is Tom Brady he is still the short term not the long term which is always in Bill's mind. I personally believe that Bill would have been prepared to move on from Brady a couple of years ago rightly or wrongly because thats just what his pattern has been with player, unemotional. I think he saw Garropolo as a legitimate successor.

There is also a lot of QBs that will be available in free agency this year that I think Bill would look at to come in and bridge the gap or even be the QB for a few years, someone like Dalton for example. I think Bill would be happy to go with someone like that while rebuilding, someone who is a perfectly capable QB and won't demand the same kind of money that Brady will.

I think Brady can pick up offers from the likes of the Chargers who will have money, the location and a team that can provide him with better weapons on offence. The Dolphins will have a huge amount of cap space and are not as bad as you might think going off this season.

For Brady to stay I think, the money has to be right for him and the offence has got to be massively upgraded. Whats the point in bringing him back, or him coming back unless that happens when you look at it logically? That was probably the worst collection he has had in his time as a Patriot and he has very rarely had studs. Harry seems to have been a mistake, certainly in where he was drafted. Giving up a 2nd round pick for Sanu was also a miss.

Look at it from Brady POV, he has a year or two left and will have plenty of offers. To win does he look at that Patriots roster and see it as his best chance? Not without a lot of changes imo and I am not sure BB can or will provide him what he wants.

BB is gonna be around longer than Brady and I worry more about the day he goes than I do Brady at this point while recognising that Brady is the GOAT and I would love him to play for another 20 years if we could develop some kind of anti aging thing. I think BB would actually get excited by the prospect of moving on from Brady and showing everybody, proving that he is the biggest reason for the Patriots success, and a reset button of sorts. Also, from Bradys POV his ending of that Instagram post with "I still have more to prove" could just be that, Bradys competitive mindset, or what else does he have to prove? Only that he can do it without BB.

I think Kraft will be eager for Brady to stay but I think ultimately he will defer to Bill on it. I think all parties first preference would be for Tom to return to the Patriots I am just not sure that everything I think needs to happen for that will happen. I think he will get 3/4 serious teams making offers to him. I don't think it will be quite the same as when Manning left the Colts but I think from a playing and a business POV there will be plenty of interest, just not really more than 3 or 4 that Tom will take seriously.

I could be completely wrong, and I hope I am. I want nothing more than to see Brady back for next season and for him to be provided the weapons to give us the chance to win another one before bowing out. Josh seemingly staying is a positive in the Brady staying column but there is a long way to go.

Sorry for the rambling nature of this post, I have the man flu!

BKWDR

Regardless of what you think of the author, the following article on Off the Ball is timely.

https://www.offtheball.com/american-football/tom-bradys-value-950393

ELM327

BKWDR wrote: »

Regardless of what you think of the author, the following article on Off the Ball is timely.

https://www.offtheball.com/american-football/tom-bradys-value-950393

I think the legitimacy of that article is summed up by the following quote from it


"Mariota may sound like a crazy idea right now, but the idea of Ryan Tannehill beating Brady in the playoffs would have sounded crazy 12 months ago."


Anyone speculating that the patriots are going to sign mariota are clearly clueless. If (and I don't think it will happen) Brady goes elsewhere, BB will sign someone competent as a game manager. Andy Dalton has been thrown around a lot. Or someone like Fitzmagic without the INTs