New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

BKWDR

I cant help but look at Jimmy G being traded and thinking that him staying in NE would really have cemented a future and an easier transition from TB

ELM327

BKWDR wrote: »

I cant help but look at Jimmy G being traded and thinking that him staying in NE would really have cemented a future and an easier transition from TB

I agree and I think BB wanted it too.

j8wk2feszrnpao

BKWDR wrote: »

Regardless of what you think of the author, the following article on Off the Ball is timely.

https://www.offtheball.com/american-football/tom-bradys-value-950393

I heard them on off the ball a few weeks ago, and that person never watched the Pats, only looked at stats. Briefly perusing the article summed that up.
Watching games this year, Brady was not great, but in the list of issues that Pats had, he was well down the list. A dinked up Edelman was his best offensive weapon, a poor OL (in both pass protection and the running game), no TE play at all, receivers dropping passes, losing Brown after committing money to him, a 1st round pick running back that looks like a 4th/5th round running back.......

Dalton looked a decent QB with high end talent around him (and he wouldn't
be cheap and we won't have near that talent). But he was dropped for a reason, and will be a free agent for a reason.
Mariota, no chance.

j8wk2feszrnpao

BKWDR wrote: »

I cant help but look at Jimmy G being traded and thinking that him staying in NE would really have cemented a future and an easier transition from TB

Maybe. But 2 SB wins, and other SB loss, without Jimmy G; I think the right decision was made.

Plus, resigning Jimmy would have meant even less money available to pay others. So not sure how the current roster would have looked.

eagle eye

BKWDR wrote:

Regardless of what you think of the author, the following article on Off the Ball is timely.

Never heard of the author before but that article is written by someone who has no clue about football.

eagle eye

BKWDR wrote:

I cant help but look at Jimmy G being traded and thinking that him staying in NE would really have cemented a future and an easier transition from TB

I didn't like him being traded either, felt he looked like a clone of TB in the couple of games he started.
I like Stidham too though, seems very like Jommy G.

BKWDR

eagle eye wrote: »

Never heard of the author before but that article is written by someone who has no clue about football.

He famously was an NFL writer for espn who went out on the sauce and started calling colleagues c*nts after a rake of beer at a work event, but using the word in the Irish, termof endearment way. But yanks don't get that. Was fired on the Monday.

ELM327

eagle eye wrote: »

I didn't like him being traded either, felt he looked like a clone of TB in the couple of games he started.
I like Stidham too though, seems very like Jommy G.

Yes, he (jimmy G) had the feel of a franchise QB in waiting, A la rodgers in GB.


Havent seen much of Stidham except the pick 6 but he wears the right number for a QB so that has to count for something>?! :D

StringerBell

Jimmy is one I think we probably all agonize over looking back. The thing is, when you look at the achievements since the trade its very hard to argue against it or say it was the wrong move. We were never gonna pay to keep both, I think in the end its worked out well short term but remains to be seem longer term. I just wish he was a few years younger and had only just been drafted into the organisation! The timing would have been perfect then. Stidham looks alright but I don't get the same feel from him as I did watching Jimmy or hear so much about how intelligent he is and how highly he is thought of behind the scenes in New England. Jimmy did remind me of Brady when I watched him, they are similar in a lot of ways but Jimmy doesn't seem to have that massive chip on his shoulder that Tom thrives on. He still has so much to prove like but you always got the impression he could be special, its a shame we won't get to see his career play out as a Patriot.

adrian522

BKWDR wrote: »

He famously was an NFL writer for espn who went out on the sauce and started calling colleagues c*nts after a rake of beer at a work event, but using the word in the Irish, termof endearment way. But yanks don't get that. Was fired on the Monday.

He also knows nothing about football though. Check out his preseason QB rankings.

https://presnapreads.com/2019-quarterback-tiers-and-rankings/

Shedite27

Lets play a little flip reversal....

So October 2017, Patriots are 6-2, 4 months left on Jimmy G's contract, SF call, Bill tells them where to go, Jimmy G sits behind TB for the season, Eagles beat Patriots in the Superbowl.

2018, JG needs a new contract, while TB still has 2 years left. Bill decides its JG time, Brady is available for trade, teams looking for a QB are Vikings, Buffalo and SF. The bay kid goes home.

SF 2018 were 4-12 with JG out injured, he might get them to playoffs, possibly win a wildcard, not sure that team would get past Saints or Rams last year
I'm not sure Patriots get past Kansas in the Title game (won in OT with TB), so no Superbowl in 2018

2019, SF have TB, I'd imagine they're now fairly similar so now TB's one game away from a Superbowl with SF, I'd have them even stronger favourites for the Superbowl with TB at SB while Pats are still looking to rebuild with JG in place.

Probably would have got better draft picks for TB 2 years ago than JG too.

TLDR: Pats don't win superbowl last year, but have JG and a few more draft picks for the next 10 years.

Christy42

adrian522 wrote: »

He also knows nothing about football though. Check out his preseason QB rankings.

https://presnapreads.com/2019-quarterback-tiers-and-rankings/

Given some of the people who get paid to talk about football that seems largely irrelevant!

Jimmy G is in a good scheme and hasn't set the world alight. Not sure where he will end up but not a massive believer. I should say I think is a very good quarterback and has stepped up in games where has had to. Not sure he will reach one that got away level though.

Depends on what you end up with I guess. If they are terrible then obviously you will like for Jimmy but I am not sure Jimmy really promises a team Superbowls like Brady did.

Earleybird

It's basically been said here already but Jimmy G while promising potential could still go either way. Would we have reached 2 Bowls with him as trigger man, probably not. We don't even know how he can handle a Championship game yet. He might be a star, but regardless the Patriots have done the unthinkable with the level of sustained success over a decade, there is a potential cliff coming. Even if Jimmy is the real deal and was still on the roster, no guarantees of success. I'll always be biased towards Tom, but 2 Bowls after Jimmy cut, its worked out, regardless of what happens next.

adrian522

I was more thinking the rankings for Mariota and Wilson. How anyone who watches football thinks Wilson is not a top 10 QB is beyond me. Same for Mariota and anyone who thinks he is a top 10 QB.

There are other issues as well, Watson should be way higher, Trubisky lower etc.

Christy42

adrian522 wrote: »

I was more thinking the rankings for Mariota and Wilson. How anyone who watches football thinks Wilson is not a top 10 QB is beyond me. Same for Mariota and anyone who thinks he is a top 10 QB.

There are other issues as well, Watson should be way higher, Trubisky lower etc.

Sorry I replied to you because the first part of my post referenced yours.

The rest was adding to a separate Jimmy G conversation. I stopped reading the rankings when Wilson was listed out of the top 10! They are garbage. Could have made that clearer in my post.

Foxtrol

adrian522 wrote: »

I was more thinking the rankings for Mariota and Wilson. How anyone who watches football thinks Wilson is not a top 10 QB is beyond me. Same for Mariota and anyone who thinks he is a top 10 QB.

There are other issues as well, Watson should be way higher, Trubisky lower etc.

I disagree with him on a lot of things but to be fair a lot of it is pretty accurate. It is hard to find one of those lists that doesn't play it super safe that doesn't have a few aberrations.

Like him, Chris Simms also did a list at the start of the season that didn't have Brees or Brady in their top 5 (both closer to the back end of the top 10) and some people, including players and ex-players, lost their minds about it. In hindsight it turns out they were both right.

BoldReason

I don't get the love in for Jimmy G. He is competent and above average yes. But he is hardly irreplaceable.
He is a decent QB playing in a very good system. He was pretty average last week and got bailed out a few times by his receivers on pretty poor throws.

As for Cian Fahey. Russell Wilson is probably in the top 3 current QBs in the league never mind top 10. :rolleyes:

Adamcp898

Sports journalists largely write articles to generate clicks, not to inform the masses with fair and balanced well-researched information.

There are just far too many of them, and too much coverage time/inches to fill, for actual news to supply it all. So you’re just left with truck loads of opinion pieces mixed in with stories to build fictional narratives, and in that respect - it pays every bit as much if not more to be contrarian than it does to be informed

TLDR; don’t get your knickers in a twist over what sports “news” sites/professionals report. It’s exactly what they’re angling for.

Podge_irl

BoldReason wrote: »

I don't get the love in for Jimmy G. He is competent and above average yes. But he is hardly irreplaceable.
He is a decent QB playing in a very good system. He was pretty average last week and got bailed out a few times by his receivers on pretty poor throws.

As for Cian Fahey. Russell Wilson is probably in the top 3 current QBs in the league never mind top 10. :rolleyes:

There has been a Jimmy G love-in?

18th anniversary of the Tuck Rule Game today. (God bless it!).

StringerBell

Scar is retiring (again)

With Thuney gone already too I am not enjoying thoughts of our O line next year!

BizzyC

We need a complete change on O...
We don't have the right players for Josh's scheme, we need 2-3 O lineman in the offseason and a switch to a more run heavy offence.
With the D looking in pretty good shape next season, we just need to get back to those early 2000's offensive games where half the passes were play action.

ELM327

I don't understand why we haven't gone that way further already.
With the caliber of our defense, an excellent game manager QB with the ability to be top notch when needed, we should be more run heavy.

I wonder if the lack of production from Michel given his pick value is part of it. I like when james white is in the game, we should run more when he is on the field to give more credence to the screen game and play actions when he's there.

Back to the good old days with kevin faulk! Without the drops/fumbles!

j8wk2feszrnpao

I don't rate the D that highly. We shutdown really bad teams this year, but when we played a good playoff team, it was no where near good enough.
Of course, fault lies with the offense as well, unable to string consistent drives, poor run game, and weak in the redzeone. But the D was not good enough to carry the team when needed in big games.
Devin McCourty, Kyle Van Noy, Jamie Collins, Elandon Roberts and even Shelton and Calhoun; all free agents. Given the needs on offense, can you re-sign or replace these guys sufficiently?

There's a much tougher schedule next year. A with the possibility of not having TB, I can see a big drop off.

AbusesToilets

We're really missing someone like Wilfork, who can stuff the run effectively up the middle. Our secondary should still be one of the best in the league, give time to our less talented pass rush to get pressure.

Earleybird

So now we know, Jimmy isn't up to SuperBowl standard.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Earleybird wrote: »

So now we know, Jimmy isn't up to SuperBowl standard.

Jimmy has good career ahead of him, but even if he won last night, keeping the GOAT was always the right decision.

me89

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Jimmy has good career ahead of him, but even if he won last night, keeping the GOAT was always the right decision.

100%. Can't understand why so many question it.

Earleybird

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Jimmy has good career ahead of him, but even if he won last night, keeping the GOAT was always the right decision.

For sure. Hopefully we do it again this year...

j8wk2feszrnpao

Earleybird wrote: »

For sure. Hopefully we do it again this year...

Don't see us challenging this year, bar we keep Brady, resign some keys players, get quality in free agency, hit on draft picks, and Harry shows he's a true first rounder.
We were 12:4 last year, but had an easy schedule. When we played the good teams, we struggled badly, even losing at home to Miami with a bye on the line.
Obviously a good off-season can change everything, but we are at least a 1 tier down from what we saw from the Chiefs/Ravens in the AFC.
I don't fault the team/coach for the slide, we'd been in the last 8 AFC Championship games, picking that low in the draft for near a decade will have an affect.

AbusesToilets

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Don't see us challenging this year, bar we keep Brady, resign some keys players, get quality in free agency, hit on draft picks, and Harry shows he's a true first rounder.
We were 12:4 last year, but had an easy schedule. When we played the good teams, we struggled badly, even losing at home to Miami with a bye on the line.
Obviously a good off-season can change everything, but we are at least a 1 tier down from what we saw from the Chiefs/Ravens in the AFC.
I don't fault the team/coach for the slide, we'd been in the last 8 AFC Championship games, picking that low in the draft for near a decade will have an affect.

Be interesting to see if Brady attends OTAs this season. Lack of rapport with his receivers was a problem all year, and I'd put some of that on him.

j8wk2feszrnpao

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Be interesting to see if Brady attends OTAs this season. Lack of rapport with his receivers was a problem all year, and I'd put some of that on him.

We have to sign Brady first!
I don't think it mattered all that much. They were still dropping passes and in the wrong spot late in the year. It's a talent issue IMO.

eagle eye

Earleybird wrote:

So now we know, Jimmy isn't up to SuperBowl standard.

Well we really don't. That team is set up to run the ball and have a game manager at QB.

Earleybird

eagle eye wrote: »

Well we really don't. That team is set up to run the ball and have a game manager at QB.

And when called upon should be able to deliver tight passes. Which he didn't. So we really do.

StringerBell

Jimmy made some really good throws last night, I don't think you could draw a conclusion either way tbh.

Foxtrol

Earleybird wrote: »

And when called upon should be able to deliver tight passes. Which he didn't. So we really do.

He's made those tight passes all season and his stats while playing from behind were also great all year. He did that during his first full season as a starter and while coming off a knee injury (which many QBs, including Brady, are slow to return to form after).

No one can say he didn't have a poor 4th quarter but it is very knee-jerk write him off as not being capable of getting to Super Bowl standard based on what you saw last night. A play or call or two the other way and he'd have another ring.

Earleybird

Foxtrol wrote: »

He's made those tight passes all season and his stats while playing from behind were also great all year. He did that during his first full season as a starter and while coming off a knee injury (which many QBs, including Brady, are slow to return to form after).

No one can say he didn't have a poor 4th quarter but it is very knee-jerk write him off as not being capable of getting to Super Bowl standard based on what you saw last night. A play or call or two the other way and he'd have another ring.

But this is the whole point. I don't disagree with your points, when he first landed in SF he went on a spree of winning drives. He has a decent season this year and they get to the playoffs. He does his job and they get to Miami. He's asked to execute a minute number of throws at the moment of most pressure. He was visibally forcing his throws, his receivers helping him for the most part and then in the 4th he fell apart. Its a fine margin, but bottom line the play or two the other way didn't happen because he couldn't handle it. Hence, my point.

Foxtrol

Earleybird wrote: »

But this is the whole point. I don't disagree with your points, when he first landed in SF he went on a spree of winning drives. He has a decent season this year and they get to the playoffs. He does his job and they get to Miami. He's asked to execute a minute number of throws at the moment of most pressure. He was visibally forcing his throws, his receivers helping him for the most part and then in the 4th he fell apart. Its a fine margin, but bottom line the play or two the other way didn't happen because he couldn't handle it. Hence, my point.

I don't know how you can agree with my points and claim:

Earleybird wrote: »

So now we know, Jimmy isn't up to SuperBowl standard.

Even if you question Jimmy's performances over the first 3 quarters, he did better than Mahomes during that period. Are you also writing off Mahomes as not being Super Bowl standard because he was poorer for more of the game or is it completely forgotten because of a few 4th quarter plays (like selecting MVP)?

Plenty of the greatest players have lost numerous Super Bowls or haven't performed well in them and their team still wins. Does that make them all not up to your Super Bowl standard?

eagle eye

Earleybird wrote:

And when called upon should be able to deliver tight passes. Which he didn't. So we really do.

Offensive line was a huge issue, how many incompletions were due to pressure? Or how many incompletions occurred when he wasn't under pressure?

Earleybird

Foxtrol wrote: »

I don't know how you can agree with my points and claim:



Even if you question Jimmy's performances over the first 3 quarters, he did better than Mahomes during that period. Are you also writing off Mahomes as not being Super Bowl standard because he was poorer for more of the game or is it completely forgotten because of a few 4th quarter plays (like selecting MVP)?

Plenty of the greatest players have lost numerous Super Bowls or haven't performed well in them and their team still wins. Does that make them all not up to your Super Bowl standard?

Quite simply, because he wasn't able to do it on the biggest stage. There's only one game that matters every year, you don't get another bite the following Sunday. So you need to have skills and handle pressure. There's no doubting he has skills, we see it regularly (as we do with 30 other QBs any given Sunday). But for me he failed the test of nerve. That's the barometer for SuperBowl standard.

Mahomes had his own struggles, the nerves perhaps playing a part too, and/or a bit loose when chasing, but margins are tough. If they'd lost he goes from taking the blame to putting 2 solid, quick drives together to be MVP. That's the game. Live or die by making a play at the right time with all the chips on the table. Pained me to view it as a Pats fan, but he proved his strength of character, especially considering he had been poor. Jimmy did the opposite. Its a harsh microscope.

Plenty of top players didn't perform at their best in SuperBowls, for various reasons I guess. I was just interested in Jimmy because it irks me somewhat, the narrative that, some sort of star was traded and here he is competing for a ring.

Earleybird

eagle eye wrote: »

Offensive line was a huge issue, how many incompletions were due to pressure? Or how many incompletions occurred when he wasn't under pressure?

Ridiculous question. He's playing for a ring, of course pressure is coming. Any QB in the league can look good in a play action run heavy offense. Staying in there, making completions and taking a hit is what the top players can do when it matters. He didn't. That's all.

eagle eye

Earleybird wrote:

Ridiculous question. He's playing for a ring, of course pressure is coming. Any QB in the league can look good in a play action run heavy offense. Staying in there, making completions and taking a hit is what the top players can do when it matters. He didn't. That's all.

Its not a ridiculous question unless you think that the offensive line not holding up doesn't matter.
I am not one of those who said he should have been kept either. I understood he needed to go.
Basic short story is he got traded, got injured, came back this season from a torn ACL, and led his team to a Superbowl. He had a 102 QB rating for the regular season.
Are we gonna base this on one game where his offensive line played poorly?

Earleybird

eagle eye wrote: »

Are we gonna base this on one game where his offensive line played poorly?

I am, you can do as you choose. He had opportunities to make plays despite pressure coming. That's my take.

Plus as I keep saying, it's rating purely on the only game that matters, regular season records don't count for much in the end. You'd trade them all for a ring.

Foxtrol

Earleybird wrote: »

Quite simply, because he wasn't able to do it on the biggest stage. There's only one game that matters every year, you don't get another bite the following Sunday. So you need to have skills and handle pressure. There's no doubting he has skills, we see it regularly (as we do with 30 other QBs any given Sunday). But for me he failed the test of nerve. That's the barometer for SuperBowl standard.

Mahomes had his own struggles, the nerves perhaps playing a part too, and/or a bit loose when chasing, but margins are tough. If they'd lost he goes from taking the blame to putting 2 solid, quick drives together to be MVP. That's the game. Live or die by making a play at the right time with all the chips on the table. Pained me to view it as a Pats fan, but he proved his strength of character, especially considering he had been poor. Jimmy did the opposite. Its a harsh microscope.

Plenty of top players didn't perform at their best in SuperBowls, for various reasons I guess. I was just interested in Jimmy because it irks me somewhat, the narrative that, some sort of star was traded and here he is competing for a ring.

If the Patriots' defense gave up 31 points to the Rams in Brady's first Super Bowl and they lost (when Brady put up the same number of points as Jimmy), would Brady therefore not be 'Super Bowl standard'? After how many Super Bowl wins does he become this magical 'Super Bowl standard'? Look, Jimmy will never get close to the achievements or likely the player that Brady has been but extrapolating his future based on one poor quarter, when everything went wrong for his team both on offense and defense, seems like complete rubbish.

We might as well leave it there, you're entitled to your view but I couldn't disagree more with your thought process.

Earleybird

Foxtrol wrote: »

If the Patriots' defense gave up 31 points to the Rams in Brady's first Super Bowl and they lost (when Brady put up the same number of points as Jimmy), would Brady therefore not be 'Super Bowl standard'? After how many Super Bowl wins does he become this magical 'Super Bowl standard'? Look, Jimmy will never get close to the achievements or likely the player that Brady has been but extrapolating his future based on one poor quarter, when everything went wrong for his team both on offense and defense, seems like complete rubbish.

We might as well leave it there, you're entitled to your view but I couldn't disagree more with your thought process.

I didn't ask you to agree with me, I have my opinion too. It will take years to see whether Jimmy has what it takes outside of the regular season. I don't think he does. We'll move on.

j8wk2feszrnpao

March 18th is beginning to come into focus, when Brady becomes a free agent (and a bigger cap hit to resign).

human 19

I assume the Redskins are blowing smoke with the comments about possibly drafting Tua, but do you think the Pats might be on the phone to them enquiring about trading for Haskins if they think the 'skins might not be happy with him as their franchise QB?

I think they would be crazy to swap Haskins for Tua and and drop way down the order rather than keeping Haskins and getting Chase Young. I assume this is just a tactic to motivate Haskins, but you never know, especially if another Pat'splayer was thrown ito the deal.

Foxtrol

human 19 wrote: »

I assume the Redskins are blowing smoke with the comments about possibly drafting Tua, but do you think the Pats might be on the phone to them enquiring about trading for Haskins if they think the 'skins might not be happy with him as their franchise QB?

I think they would be crazy to swap Haskins for Tua and and drop way down the order rather than keeping Haskins and getting Chase Young. I assume this is just a tactic to motivate Haskins, but you never know, especially if another Pat'splayer was thrown ito the deal.

There was some horrible stuff written and said about Haskins struggling with calling plays for Washington. The Patriot offense is incredibly complicated so I can't see a player that has had difficulties elsewhere being a good fit for it nor the Patriots completely changing their offense.

Foxtrol

eagle eye wrote: »

Have you links to that stuff about Haskins?
I'd find it hard to believe, he comes across as a pretty intelligent guy.

https://twitter.com/GottliebShow/status/1233074767709667328?s=20

In discussions in the media about it afterwards everyone agreed it was too harsh a statement but didn't hear anyone come out saying he had full grasp of the playbooks last season, especially not Gruden's.

paulie21

So McCourtys resigned, Thuney tagged, KVN to the Dolphins and Collins to the Lions. No update on Brady situation