Off licences and draconian closing times

thattequilagirl

syklops wrote: »

thattequilagirl wrote: »

There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

That works both ways.

Nobody on the other side of the debate has said anything remotely convincing.

I've conceded that an extension on the weekend and getting rid of the 12.30 start on Sunday would be a good compromise.

People on here are more interested in "winning" the argument than trying to come up with solutions or compromises that might work.

thattequilagirl

syklops wrote: »

Check this information from the CSO out. In 2008, the year this law was introduced, there were more than 61,000 public order offences. In 2014, there were 32,000. The number has almost halved since these laws were introduced (the off license timing was one of a bunch of laws introduced at the same time to tackle public order offences)

http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQui...lProduct=DB_CJ

So I'd say your minor inconvenience has been well worth it.

In 2009 alone, over 61,000 people emigrated. In 2012 it was 87,000 and in 2013 it was 89,000

Could that maybe have something to do with other numbers dropping?

The crimes dropped by almost 50%, the population didn't.

Grandeeod

Giblet wrote: »

I don't care about 10pm, but fecking 12:30pm on a Sunday is absolute stupidity!
I go shopping in the morning, and sometimes I might think "Hrmm, some wine might be nice" or "Oh the match is on at 1pm, a tin or two would be nice"

Nope!

Really, f*cking, stupid.

Oh I've been there and out of pure ignorance. I lived abroad for a few years and got out of the Irish way by being able to pick up a bottle of wine anytime I shopped. Beer too. Since moving back, I lost count of the awkward moments in supermarkets.

That said, my sister, who should know better living in Ireland, wanted a small can of guinness for her stew earlier this week and suffered the embarrassment of being told no way jose at 10am at the till. Not wanting to revisit later I recommended a bottle of Guinness sauce to her. Does the same thing.:D

In general, the whole thing is prehistoric and I'm flabbergasted by how anyone can defend it.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So because it has never happened to you personally, it can't be true. Talk to ANY A&E nurse about what the most difficult part of the night shift is... There's only one answer they always give.

They'll tell me that the off licences staying open until 10 makes their jobs harder?

thattequilagirl

LexieOnRale wrote: »

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So because it has never happened to you personally, it can't be true. Talk to ANY A&E nurse about what the most difficult part of the night shift is... There's only one answer they always give.

They'll tell me that the off licences staying open until 10 makes their jobs harder?

You know that's not the point I'm making, but being childish really proves your point. I'm done on this thread, I'd rather be where there's genuine interest in discussion.

end of the road

thattequilagirl wrote: »

A&E nurses/Ambulance service
Garda

are working anyway.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Publicans & bar staff

of course. the reason the 10 pm closing time for offlicences was brought in.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Off-license workers

but not their employers.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

People's livers (I find it hard to believe that a lot of the people who desperately want off licenses open all hours are drinking sensibly)

well, thankfully what you believe and reality are 2 different things. nobody's liver benefits from a 10pm closing time. it would be much easier for you if you admitted you have no argument.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Both are true you silly sausage.

Off license workers benefit by getting to finish work and go home on time.

Bar workers benefit because the portion of us who go to bars as an alternative keep them in jobs.

not quite true. the amount of people going to pubs is dropping vastly. they have had enough of being ripped off. anyway its not the job of people to be restricted to keep others in jobs. still, i'm glad your finally admitting this is all about the publicans. so i guess we are getting somewhere.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Check this information from the CSO out. In 2008, the year this law was introduced, there were more than 61,000 public order offences. In 2014, there were 32,000. The number has almost halved since these laws were introduced (the off license timing was one of a bunch of laws introduced at the same time to tackle public order offences)

http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=cja01c18.asp&TableName=Public+order+and+other+social+code+offences&StatisticalProduct=DB_CJ

So I'd say your minor inconvenience has been well worth it.

it hasn't. public order offences were down anyway but spiked again in 2008. consumption of alcohol was also falling which would help bring such offences down some bit. there has been no proven link between the earlier closing time and public order offences. so, the restrictions haven't worked. try again.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I've presented totally impartial evidence that this law effectively reduced public order offences by almost 50%.

you haven't. you have provided evidence that public order offences have reduced, and claimed this is to do with the law. nothing more. there is no link between earlier closing times and a reduction in public order offences (which were going down anyway) apart from a spike in 2008.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Are you telling me you don't think that's a good thing?

that public order offences are going down? yes . that there are blatent protectionist laws restricting one set of businesses to protect other businesses? no

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Okay then, what about 29,000 fewer crimes? Is that a good enough reason for you?

no evidence thats to do with closing the off licence at 10pm.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Except that it obviously is putting a stop to a good portion of it based on the CSO figures you're choosing to ignore

it isn't putting a stop to it. drinking in general is down but binge drinking is on the rise. all the figures prove is crime went down. not that closing offlicences at 10pm brought the amount down. it was you who made that claim. the evidence doesn't back you up.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Answered above.

I must be really naive about Boards, I genuinely thought showing hard evidence that the aims of this measure was achieved with a dramatic reduction in crime would change a few minds.

you showed evidence of crime going down. it was you who made the claim it was to do with offlicences closing earlier, nobody else. not the CSO.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

problem is, there is nothing to see.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, in 2008 there were 61,000 public order offences. These laws were introduced specifically to tackle public order offences. Then public order offences dropped by almost 50%.

But there's no connection?

no, as apart from a spike in 2008 public order offences were dropping as well as consumption.

c montgomery wrote: »

Your incapable of having alcohol in the house and not drinking it?

not what she said but nice twisting of words to suit your agenda.

c montgomery wrote: »

Sounds like you have a bit of a problem, adults should have self control.
Off licences closing at 10 are a blessing for you

clearly not. it doesn't stop her from having a drink. it doesn't work. it was blatent protectionism for the publicans based on nothing.

c montgomery wrote: »

People choose not to see the connection as it doesn't fit their narrative.

or, maybe there is no connection.

Kiwi in IE

So those in favour of the law state that it is due to public order offences, alcohol related injuries presenting in A&E etc. If that were the case how is 1030/1230 explained? Why can off licences and supermarkets not sell alcohol from the opening of their business hours? There wouldn't be many shops apart from 24 hour businesses that open before 0800, so why not make it 0800? Is there an increase in alcohol related public order offences and A&E presentations between 0800 and 1030? And then on Sundays the increased incidences last until 1230? There is very little rational defence of these laws.

Azalea

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Nobody on the other side of the debate has said anything remotely convincing.

Yes they have, it's just inconvenient for you to acknowledge it. Whereas folks taking the counter position have offered such superb insights as "lol adults plan ahead", "Oh I can't get a sofa at 3am same thing" and "wanting a drink after 10 if not in the pub = drink problem".

Paramite Pie

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So because it has never happened to you personally, it can't be true. Talk to ANY A&E nurse about what the most difficult part of the night shift is... There's only one answer they always give.

There should be fines for those who end up in such a state. And no coverage on health insurance and/or medical card for their expenses.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

The crimes dropped by almost 50%, the population didn't.

Fair enough. But I imagine younger people were more likely to commit such offenses and also more likely to emigrate more.

But the crimes droped to below 2004 levels -- back in 2004 there was no such restriction. I believe it's success is circumstantial rather than the law itself.

Spanish Eyes

Forget it everyone.

Leo's Minimum pricing bill is going ahead (despite the EU rules la la la), and that means that the Off Licences which include supermarkets and centra/spar/garage etc. will only be allowed to sell alcohol between the hours of 3pm to 5pm.

Don't laugh, it's the future.

So there.

All to support our very generous publicans.

syklops

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Nobody on the other side of the debate has said anything remotely convincing.

I've conceded that an extension on the weekend and getting rid of the 12.30 start on Sunday would be a good compromise.

People on here are more interested in "winning" the argument than trying to come up with solutions or compromises that might work.

Nobody on your side of the debate has said much to convince me either. Add in all the thanks whoring, and I'm not pushed to put in a big effort to convince you.

cowboyBuilder

What time do they close anyway ?

syklops

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

What time do they close anyway ?

10pm.

cowboyBuilder

syklops wrote: »

10pm.

Seems fairly reasonable in fairness ... allthough easy for me to say, here 11PM is the cutoff point, but if I go to one of the local corner shop the lad will just put it in a paper bag and say "be careful of the pigs!"

syklops

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Seems fairly reasonable in fairness ... allthough easy for me to say, here 11PM is the cutoff point, but if I go to one of the local corner shop the lad will just put it in a paper bag and say "be careful of the pigs!"

Well 10pm is the cutoff point and in many places the till wont allow you to ring it through after 10pm so even if you are friends with your local shop keeper, there is little chance of getting it on the sly.

Menas

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Forget it everyone.

Leo's Minimum pricing bill is going ahead (despite the EU rules la la la), and that means that the Off Licences which include supermarkets and centra/spar/garage etc. will only be allowed to sell alcohol between the hours of 3pm to 5pm.

Don't laugh, it's the future.

So there.

All to support our very generous publicans.

I really hope that Mary Mitchell O'Connor knocks on my door looking for my vote in the election. I have a few curse words specially ready for her to thank her for been a mouthpiece in the dail for the Vintners association.

squeekyduck

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Check this information from the CSO out. In 2008, the year this law was introduced, there were more than 61,000 public order offences. In 2014, there were 32,000. The number has almost halved since these laws were introduced (the off license timing was one of a bunch of laws introduced at the same time to tackle public order offences)

http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=cja01c18.asp&TableName=Public+order+and+other+social+code+offences&StatisticalProduct=DB_CJ

So I'd say your minor inconvenience has been well worth it.

I doubt it. 2008 was the year of the big crash, we had enormous emigration so I don't think this one law change had that impact.

I live in the UK so this does not affect me but I can relate to Kiwi on this one. A few weeks ago we were hosting a Saturday night party. We were doing the shopping around 9am and I innocently picked up a bottle of red. I was able to buy it with my normal shopping as there is no silly law here. This is normal, having a time limit on alcohol does nothing to protect the alcoholics. I can but alcohol at 4am if I want to in my local 24 hours shops, its my right to do so if I want. It doesn't make anyone an alcoholic, its personnel responsibility after all.

rubadub

Can you point to anyone who benefits from the law or finds it convenient?

thattequilagirl wrote: »

A&E nurses/Ambulance service
Garda
Publicans & bar staff
Off-license workers
People's livers (I find it hard to believe that a lot of the people who desperately want off licenses open all hours are drinking sensibly)

Part of the argument IN FAVOUR of 24 hour/unregulated opening is to help A&E, ambulance and the gardai. As there will be no sudden outpuring of people all at once, and associated fights & accidents.

Just like many other retailers, many publicans would prefer to be allowed open when they want. I know many bar staff would would like to have more hours available to work. I would hate if my workplace was forced to shut down and not be able to avail of overtime. Same goes for off licence workers. I heard on the radio this year there will be more protesting to be allowed serve on good friday.

As for livers, due to the "last round" culture of treble vodkas/whiskeys many are worse off. And at home many will have loads of stockpiled booze they might tear into once they get drunk, the only reason for it to be there is due to these drink laws.

I have seen the 10pm rule backfire for similar reasons, it gets near 10 and people clear out, go to the offie and get more tanked up till all hours. When before they might have stayed in the pub and just split home after.