Transgender women stoned in Germany

thattequilagirl

Fleawuss wrote: »

It's up to an individual with enough posts to start a thread, it's up to others to decide if they want to contribute, it's up to the mods to decide if it stays open. I'll tell you why I think this thread is important : it points to a real and emerging problem with mass Muslim migration. It points to a desire to censor, suppress or dismiss events like this by certain politically inspired points of view just as it points to a desire to use it for political point scoring by others.

So to your comparison of tarring with the same brush. The Muslim religion has a completely different view of women and gays to Ireland and most of Western Europe. That needs to be faced. Look at the incident itself: they pick up pebbles / gravel / stones : just as their religion commands them to do for adulterers, just as they do on haj when they throw them at the" devil". People are conditioned by their upbringing and sadly religion has been a big conditioner of these young men.

So, if a Muslim upbringing is the reason for this crime, what is to blame for white-on-white LGBT attacks?

I'm delighted we passed the referendum, but people have short memories. Homosexual acts were illegal in Ireland until the early 90s. LGBT kids (and adults) all over the world and across pretty much all cultures have been and are today the victims of bullying and discrimination up to and including violence. It's sad that this is the case, but trying to portray it as a Muslim problem is disingenuous- it's a human problem.

bruno1x

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, if a Muslim upbringing is the reason for this crime, what is to blame for white-on-white LGBT attacks?
.

Are there no white muslims?

thattequilagirl

bruno1x wrote: »

Are there no white muslims?

In this instance we're discussing refugees of Arab origin. You know exactly what I mean so cop on.

bruno1x

thattequilagirl wrote: »

In this instance we're discussing refugees of Arab origin. You know exactly what I mean so cop on.

Then why bring up white-on-white LGBT attacks?

thattequilagirl

bruno1x wrote: »

Then why bring up white-on-white LGBT attacks?

Read the post in full. I can't make it any clearer for you. Work on your comprehension skills.

kupus

how can you create dialogue with people like these.

1 min in and there telling gays to go home.

MRnotlob606

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, if a Muslim upbringing is the reason for this crime, what is to blame for white-on-white LGBT attacks?

I'm delighted we passed the referendum, but people have short memories. Homosexual acts were illegal in Ireland until the early 90s. LGBT kids (and adults) all over the world and across pretty much all cultures have been and are today the victims of bullying and discrimination up to and including violence. It's sad that this is the case, but trying to portray it as a Muslim problem is disingenuous- it's a human problem.

Nobody is trying to tar all Muslims with the one Brush. What we are criticising is their beliefs and how they are manifested in social and cultural norms throughout the world. We have a duty to expose the injustices in Muslim countries that persecuted.

RadiationKing

I don't believe for a second that the right-wingers whooping and hollering about all this would care if any members of the LGBT community were assaulted or killed by their own. After all, they're just as like to hate us as the people they bang on about but this is a convenient angle to take a shot at immigrants with.

How many threads on transgender people on AH devolve into the usual ****-flinging? And now you're all out in support. What a load of BS.

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

We love one group but we also love the ones who are committing the crimes

As opposed to right-wingers who hate both! :pac:

BreadnBuddha

Fleawuss wrote: »

It's up to an individual with enough posts to start a thread, it's up to others to decide if they want to contribute, it's up to the mods to decide if it stays open. I'll tell you why I think this thread is important : it points to a real and emerging problem with mass Muslim migration. It points to a desire to censor, suppress or dismiss events like this by certain politically inspired points of view just as it points to a desire to use it for political point scoring by others.

So to your comparison of tarring with the same brush. The Muslim religion has a completely different view of women and gays to Ireland and most of Western Europe. That needs to be faced. Look at the incident itself: they pick up pebbles / gravel / stones : just as their religion commands them to do for adulterers, just as they do on haj when they throw them at the" devil". People are conditioned by their upbringing and sadly religion has been a big conditioner of these young men.

Many people who lean to the right, politically and socially, seem to find it easy to ignore the treatment of LGBT and women in Ireland not even 50 years ago in Catholic Ireland. All of a sudden, we're good enough to point the finger at Muslims and suggest that we're 'better' at being decent human beings.

It's all a load of crap. People do horrible things to each other and they don't need religion to provide a catalyst.

22catch

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, if a Muslim upbringing is the reason for this crime, what is to blame for white-on-white LGBT attacks?

I'm delighted we passed the referendum, but people have short memories. Homosexual acts were illegal in Ireland until the early 90s. LGBT kids (and adults) all over the world and across pretty much all cultures have been and are today the victims of bullying and discrimination up to and including violence. It's sad that this is the case, but trying to portray it as a Muslim problem is disingenuous- it's a human problem.

Most white people, or non muslims, don't believe that all gay/lgbt people are an abomination who should be killed. There's a huge difference, but the liberals are just too stupid to see or loathe to concede the point, that Islam is a barbaric, oppressive, repressive medieval 'religion' that has no tolerance for anyone who isn't a hardcore muslim. If it wasn't such a serious situation your liberal attitude to muslims would be comical. How many migrants have you taken into your home? None right? Yet you want the western world to take in millions of people who despise our ways.

thattequilagirl

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Nobody is trying to tar all Muslims with the one Brush. What we are criticising is their beliefs and how they are manifested in social and cultural norms throughout the world. We have a duty to expose the injustices in Muslim countries that persecuted.

I think your post is balanced and correct, however it's clear that there are some posters here who are trying to tar them all with one brush as part of an anti-Islam agenda.

Collie D

But but but...it was Muslims who done it so it must be bad...

I wonder how many homophobic attacks happened in Europe recently. Why aren't they all given their own thread?

And the anti-Muslim reregs on this site are the first to rant about the "liberal agenda".

thattequilagirl

22catch wrote: »

Most white people, or non muslims, don't believe that all gay/lgbt people are an abomination who should be killed. There's a huge difference, but the liberals are just too stupid to see or loathe to concede the point, that Islam is a barbaric, oppressive, repressive medieval 'religion' that has no tolerance for anyone who isn't a hardcore muslim. If it wasn't such a serious situation your liberal attitude to muslims would be comical.

Most Muslims don't think that way. In fact, even trying to classify how 'Muslims' feel about something is almost impossible when the culture in Morroco is so different to that of Jordan, which is worlds away from how Omanis think, which is totally different to how Indonesian culture works.

PC Lackey

suicide_circus wrote: »

Transgendered vs Refugees II: The SJW Dilemma.

Coming to a theatre near you January 18.

Rated PG-13.

Soundtrack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5FfJ89rGPc

BreadnBuddha

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Or maybe you're read too much of "The Guardian" Which is just as biased and hellbent on omitting crucial facts to suit their own agenda. How is this Anti-Muslim ? It's highlighting abuses towards homosexuals throughout the world.Love how people try to ignore Muslim abuses against minorities and anybody who speaks out against them is labeled "Anti Islamic" or "Racist"

Also, It's funny how I have found threads in which you seem to bash Christianity, but haven't found anything criticising Islam. Yet you're here defending Islam.The moral hypocrisy of some liberals is quite facetious and worrying.

I'm not defending Islam nor am I a liberal. Wrong on both counts. I'm an atheist with conservative values.

You need to wake up and realise that the minorities are the ones making the most noise and causing the greatest problems. Scumbags are scumbags, no matter what book of fables they read.

Eugene Norman

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, if a Muslim upbringing is the reason for this crime, what is to blame for white-on-white LGBT attacks?

Themselves. Not the culture.

I'm delighted we passed the referendum, but people have short memories. Homosexual acts were illegal in Ireland until the early 90s. LGBT kids (and adults) all over the world and across pretty much all cultures have been and are today the victims of bullying and discrimination up to and including violence. It's sad that this is the case, but trying to portray it as a Muslim problem is disingenuous- it's a human problem.

It's clearly more of a Muslim problem these days though. I mean we have gay marriage in some countries, notably the west and death for homosexuals in others. Mostly Islamic.

Any real concern about the status of LGBT rights would lead to "islamophobia" but since that's off the table better to remind people of something that happened in the past in the West.

22catch

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Most Muslims don't think that way. In fact, even trying to classify how 'Muslims' feel about something is almost impossible when the culture in Morroco is so different to that of Jordan, which is worlds away from how Omanis think, which is totally different to how Indonesian culture works.

Bulls hit.

thattequilagirl

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Themselves. Not the culture.



It's clearly more of a Muslim problem these days though. I mean we have gay marriage in some countries, notably the west and death for homosexuals in others. Mostly Islamic.

Any real concern about the status of LGBT rights would lead to "islamophobia" but since that's off the table better to remind people of something that happened in the past in the West.

I'm not talking about the past. Today in Irish schools being gay is a reason to be bullied/beaten up.

Violence by Westerners against the LGBT community is not a thing of the past.

bruno1x

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Read the post in full. I can't make it any clearer for you. Work on your comprehension skills.

I don't suffer from white guilt, I'm not a self loathing white man either, nor a bleeding heart.
I have zero problems comprehending what is going on, its your self who is in denial.

speedboatchase

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I'm not defending Islam nor am I a liberal. Wrong on both counts. I'm an atheist with conservative values.

You need to wake up and realise that the minorities are the ones making the most noise and causing the greatest problems. Scumbags are scumbags, no matter what book of fables they read.

And a cultural relativist, by the sound of things.

Fleawuss

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, if a Muslim upbringing is the reason for this crime, what is to blame for white-on-white LGBT attacks?

I'm delighted we passed the referendum, but people have short memories. Homosexual acts were illegal in Ireland until the early 90s. LGBT kids (and adults) all over the world and across pretty much all cultures have been and are today the victims of bullying and discrimination up to and including violence. It's sad that this is the case, but trying to portray it as a Muslim problem is disingenuous- it's a human problem.

I don't need any reminder of being regarded as a criminal in my own country for a good part of my life. And there was no point in blaming Islam for that because it hadn't anything to do with it and no one did blame it. But the role of the Christian religion and its roots in Judaeo Christian thought were rightly blamed.

Your claim that this is a human problem is of course true but then every human problem is a human problem so it's a worthless contribution here. For young men of Muslim upbringing brought into a post religious culture like Western Europe with a dearly bought value on equality of gender and sexuality the change is too much for them to absorb or adjust to. You are importing people who have a different view of women and gays and their view, their view, is rooted in their religion.

It doesn't mean they can't practice their religion in their mosque: it means they can't practice the hateful and muderous parts of it on people who choose to live differently to them. Can they accept those limitations? In small numbers, yes. On the current scale of migration?

MRnotlob606

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I'm not defending Islam nor am I a liberal. Wrong on both counts. I'm an atheist with conservative values.

You need to wake up and realise that the minorities are the ones making the most noise and causing the greatest problems. Scumbags are scumbags, no matter what book of fables they read.

But Iran is a whole country that is systematically oppressing Muslims, As is Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iraq, etc.I'm just putting my finger on the issue. Intolerance of Homosexuals is more severe in Muslim countries. That is essentially what I have posited and it's substantiated by facts.

Not to say that it doesn't happen in western countries and orchestrated by Western people, but in comparison conditions are considerably better for LGBT people in the West.

Collie D

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Any real concern about the status of LGBT rights would lead to "islamophobia" but since that's off the table better to remind people of something that happened in the past in the West.

And if your main concern is LGBT rights fair enough. I think others posting on this forum have latched on to this story for other reasons though.

thattequilagirl

bruno1x wrote: »

I don't suffer from white guilt, I'm not a self loathing white man either, nor a bleeding heart.
I have zero problems comprehending what is going on, its your self who is in denial.

I have no white guilt. I have an understanding of history and context, and a wealth of life experience that informs my opinions.

RadiationKing

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's clearly more of a Muslim problem these days though. I mean we have gay marriage in some countries, notably the west and death for homosexuals in others. Mostly Islamic.

Any real concern about the status of LGBT rights would lead to "islamophobia" but since that's off the table better to remind people of something that happened in the past in the West.

Except nobody here is actually concerned about LGBT rights.

BreadnBuddha

speedboatchase wrote: »

And a cultural relativist, by the sound of things.

Hardly.

Anything of any value to contribute to the argument?

Nope?

Didn't think so.

MRnotlob606

RadiationKing wrote: »

Except nobody here is actually concerned about LGBT rights.

Only you sanctimonious liberals are ? Oh please give me a break.

bruno1x

RadiationKing wrote: »

I don't believe for a second that the right-wingers whooping and hollering about all this would care if any members of the LGBT community were assaulted or killed by their own. After all, they're just as like to hate us as the people they bang on about but this is a convenient angle to take a shot at immigrants with.

How many threads on transgender people on AH devolve into the usual ****-flinging? And now you're all out in support. What a load of BS.



As opposed to right-wingers who hate both! :pac:

Or maybe european right wingers are putting aside petty differences to focus on a bigger threat.

Fleawuss

RadiationKing wrote: »

Except nobody here is actually concerned about LGBT rights.

Untrue. You should withdraw that.

Collie D

RadiationKing wrote: »

Except nobody here is actually concerned about LGBT rights.

From the same types who want to "look after our own first" when you could be certain they didn't give a ****e about the homeless before.

RadiationKing

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Only you sanctimonious liberals are ? Oh please give me a break.

Well I'd happily change my tune if you could point out any of that on this thread, as opposed to people banging on about immigrants and Muslims.

I mean, would I find any interesting results if I was to look back at the referendum threads from last year? I'm sure I'd see the same names, alright. :pac:

Collie D

Fleawuss wrote: »

Untrue. You should withdraw that.

I don't think he should. While yourself and one or two others may actually be concerned with the homophobic aspect to this assault your cause will and has been hijacked by the idiots who want to make every thread an anti-immigration soapbox

Thelomen Toblackai

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

And then they're those trying protect Women, Gays from more attacks, and making people aware of lack of respect, certain elements will have.

Of all countries Jews are trying protect I doubt it be Germany for a reason or 6 million, sadly.

So fair play to this paper

The only reason they printed this was it was an attack carried out by Muslims. You see anything else on that paper about regular attacks in Germany that don't involve Muslims ? Their sole agenda is that Islam is bad, Muslims are bad. Muslim refugees = ISIS. That's the only message that article has. It's not in any way shape or form anything to do with being tolerant or respectful of other people or anti violence.

While it shouldn't be brushed under the carpet from a European perspective we also need to looking at it from a European perspective not get outraged over biased ****e like that paper printing anything to do with violence from Muslims and then throwing "ISIS" into the equation to try stir up an anti Muslim sentiment.

Fleawuss

Collie D wrote: »

I don't think he should. While yourself and one or two others may actually be concerned with the homophobic aspect to this assault your cause will and has been hijacked by the idiots who want to make every thread an anti-immigration soapbox

If there are several posters deeply and personally concerned then his assertion is clearly false. If you can see it is false and still defend it....

MRnotlob606

RadiationKing wrote: »

I don't believe for a second that the right-wingers whooping and hollering about all this would care if any members of the LGBT community were assaulted or killed by their own. After all, they're just as like to hate us as the people they bang on about but this is a convenient angle to take a shot at immigrants with.

How many threads on transgender people on AH devolve into the usual ****-flinging? And now you're all out in support. What a load of BS.



As opposed to right-wingers who hate both! :pac:

Or real liberals to expose the danger Islam presents to the world. Who stand for liberal values , such as freedom of speech and are not constrained by a a politically correct straight jacket of Orwellian newspeak that seeks to label people who who expose Islam for what it is as "Racist" (even though it is a religion).

Collie D

Fleawuss wrote: »

If there are several posters deeply and personally concerned then his assertion is clearly false. If you can see it is false and still defend it....

Literally speaking you are correct. Maybe shouldn't have sais "nobody". I still think "in general" the post hit the mark and it's a figure of speech.

thattequilagirl

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Or real liberals to expose the danger Islam presents to the world. Who stand for liberal values , such as freedom of speech and are not constrained by a a politically correct straight jacket of Orwellian newspeak that seeks to label people who who expose Islam for what it is as "Racist" (even though it is a religion).

So, to clarify your position, discrimination against LGBT is bad, but discrimination against Muslims is fine?

Fleawuss

Collie D wrote: »

Literally speaking you are correct. Maybe shouldn't have sais "nobody". I still think "in general" the post hit the mark and it's a figure of speech.

A figure of speech covers me: nobody.

bruno1x

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I have no white guilt. I have an understanding of history and context, and a wealth of life experience that informs my opinions.

You did not answer if you where self loathing white bleeding heart,.
The attitude of the left is "the white man done terrible things to black,brown and yellow people, we must do everything to accommodate them for those past sins".
Fukk that, i aint don't nothing wrong so i aint going to feel bad about it.

MRnotlob606

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, to clarify your position, discrimination against LGBT is bad, but discrimination against Muslims is fine?

Ehm No ? Nice straw man you pulled there I said it is right to criticize Islam and its illiberal nature. I am attacking it as a belief system.

Whosthis

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, to clarify your position, discrimination against LGBT is bad, but discrimination against Muslims is fine?

I can only imagine the level of internal conflict conservative right wingers experience when they hear of a muslim on lgbt attack.

thattequilagirl

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Ehm No ? Nice straw man you pulled there I said it is right to criticize Islam and its illiberal nature. I am attacking it as a belief system.

When you talk about "Muslims", you are talking about a grouping of people. When you talk about Islam, you're talking about a belief system. You use them interchangeably, which creates confusion about what you're really attacking.

20Cent

Someone posted the police report in German earlier in the thread. Anyone able to read it?

BigJackC

Police and media actively try to cover up their crimes. Why wouldn't they act like they were still in the middle east when there's rarely any repercussions?

Whosthis

20Cent wrote: »

Someone posted the police report in German earlier in the thread. Anyone able to read it?

That was me, google translate didn't do a great job. I think its probably written in a German shorthand so google can't accurately translate it.

xband

One of the weirdest impacts of this in France has been a rise in LGBT support for Le Pen.

It's rather ironic as her party has historically been extremely homophobic but, particularly after a string of murders in Bordeaux back in 2005, there was a fairly significant growth in support for the far right.

Personally, I think FN and Le Pen are some of the most unpleasant people you could possibly elect, but they're right wing populists and European voters tend to turn to parties like these when they feel under threat.

I'm very concerned at the moment that mainstream politics is playing with fire in Germany on this issue. It has a horrific extreme right, problems with neo nazism and xenophobia and a very scary historical precedent that isn't that long ago but nobody likes to talk about.

The policies being pursued at present don't seem sustainable. Yes, it's very important that rich countires do something to support and refugees, but it needs to be a managed, rational response.

As mad as it seems, I think Germany thinks a lot with its heart. The notion of it being this perfectly rational society doesn't hold true. It has a history of making extremely rash, emotionally led policy jumps every so often that have caused major problems.

I would argue they've even largely prolonged the Eurozone crisis by a totally irrational fear of inflation that's driven by their Weimar Republic hyperinflation national memory.

Shutting down all nuclear power in the aftermath of Fukushima without any sensible plan for replacing it which has driven energy costs way up and relaunched a lot of dependence on coal and Russian gas ...

The current refugee policy also seems to be emotionally driven. Yes, we absolutely need to help. But, just throwing open the border doesn't seem like a very rational way of doing it.

How exactly will Germany integrate 1m + people a year? Or even house them?

You're getting into a situation where people arriving with a notion that Germany is super wealthy and that they'll suddenly be able to have a middle class lifestyle are being faced with the reality - accommodation is in emergency shelters like coverted warehouses, prefab container cities, that work isn't easy to get if you don't speak German, that it has extremely cold winters which are horrible with bad heating, that the culture isn't really all that open to immigration and there's a racist undertone etc etc

Then you've had no active integration of incoming immigrants so, you've possibly just brought in a ton of angry, disorientated guys who are slipping into thuggish gang mode and then enhanced that by ghettoising them while plonking then in big cities with nothing to do.

Anyway, without going on a huge rant here. I would consider myself liberal and left wing but I think you have to be practical about how you approach a situation like this and I don't think the German administration has been.

This movement of people is a huge, huge deal and it's one of the biggest displacements of people since WWII.

It's going to have social implications. We can pretend or won't have or we can be practical and deal deal with them and plan properly.

Maybe it might make more sense to decide to put a multi billion euro action plan into trying to create temporary housing for them near to Syria and then helping them to take the country back when it stabilises ?

I'm not sure that just depopulating Syria is necessarily much of a long term solution either. It's going to create an exiled diaspora.

The whole Middle East crisis, ISIS and so on has just been allowed by everyone involved to just blow up into a total disaster. It needs to be urgently gotten under control.

Also the wealthy, oil rich neighbours seem to be not doing a tap and leaving the whole rescue of millions of people up to the European Union, which is absolutely ridiculously unneighbourly.

They have a huge role to play but aren't playing it.

Maybe it's time for an oil solidarity tarrif??

MRnotlob606

thattequilagirl wrote: »

When you talk about "Muslims", you are talking about a grouping of people. When you talk about Islam, you're talking about a belief system. You use them interchangeably, which creates confusion about what you're really attacking.

They have the freedom to worship their religion in Ireland.I respect that. But I have the freedom to criticize their belief system. That summarizes my position.

Islam used to be a religion that promoted Science, Philosophy, Architecture and Mathematics. But then the outlook changed towards the time we reached the renaissance and Islam returned to the Dark Ages. Its a fact. In 2005 Harvard University had a greater research footprint than the whole Arab world.

These are the ground I'm attacking it on.

20Cent

Whosthis wrote: »

That was me, google translate didn't do a great job. I think its probably written in a German shorthand so google can't accurately translate it.

Bet they had an argument and the guys threw some gravel at them.
Israeli journalist decides to describe that as a stoning.

kupus

xband wrote: »

One of the weirdest impacts of this in France has been a rise in LGBT support for Le Pen.

its not weird at all, its a natural reacation to turn to safe shelter no matter where or what it is.
Its the flight or fight response that evolution has ingrained in every human in the world.

And if you are lgbt dont be afraid to go to the right, not everybody there is a knuckle dragging apes that liberal media tends to portray them as.

Eugene Norman

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I'm not talking about the past. Today in Irish schools being gay is a reason to be bullied/beaten up.

Violence by Westerners against the LGBT community is not a thing of the past.

If that happens it's illegal. I'd like to see the stats for the prevalence of it.

In most Islamic countries homosexuality is illegal and in many punishable by death. Your entire argument is spurious whataboutary.