Transgender women stoned in Germany

Azalea

Severard wrote: »

Help should be extended to people who are fleeing the Islamic State, but only to those who are genuinely fleeing the Syrian conflict. The majority of those crossing into Europe are not Syrian with only 21% coming from the country[1]. At certain points that could be more or it could be less but I have yet to find a statistic to show it go over that by more than a few percentage points. The illegal immigrants are making it difficult not just for Europeans but the Syrians who are in desperate need as well.

Also letting them into the continent isn't the only way that they can be helped. Financial aid could be provided to neighboring countries that surround Syria. In 2015 for Germany alone it is estimated that accepting all of the Refugees and immigrants will cost Germany €21.1 billion [2]. This money could easily be spent on helping a country like Jordan to help the Syrians.

Doing this would have several benefits, such as:

A) People will not die trying to get to Europe.

Terrorists won't be able to exploit the crisis to attack Europe again. Another terrorist attack will definitely even further stigmatize Muslims and probably guarantee Donald Trump will be the next U.S. president because it will vindicate what he is saying all along.

C) Illegal immigrants who have nothing to do with Syria won't make it into Europe as easily.

D) Right-wing groups won't capitalize on the issue. Just look at the Austrian Freedom Party in Austria[3], The National Front in France[4], UKIP in the United Kingdom[5], the Law and Justice Party in Poland [6], the Sweden Democrats in Sweden [7]. Even in the U.S. Donald Trump is making the most of this issue. He wouldn't be in the lead in the Republican race (he wouldn't even be in the damn race itself) if it weren't for the timid response to this issue from people like Barack Obama and European leaders.

All of these European parties have made gains in recent elections as a result of this issue. Although The National Front ended up not achieving much but that was because the Socialists and Republicans cooperated together and as for UKIP it failed to make a significant impact, but that was due to the voting system in the UK. Yet the sentiment was still there - people are sick to death of the mainstream parties and want someone to do something about it instead of paying lip service.

Lastly by having such large numbers of refugees and immigrants come into Europe will inevitable create tensions. As a result there will be a backlash - non-Europeans are being attacked, refugee centers are being vandalized, etc... And this is exactly what groups like the Islamic State want. For Muslims to be attacked in Europe so as to give the feeling of not being wanted and therefore being more susceptible to agreeing with their twisted ideology.

I want to see the Syrian people helped too, but doing what Europe is currently doing now is a recipe for disaster. I would say that I'm fearful of what the next five years will be like if right-wing parties gain influence in Europe and what the consequences will be but that's already happening and the left-wing parties and mainstream media have their heads in the sand on this and are clueless on what to do.

[1] http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6996925/3-18092015-BP-EN.pdf/b0377f79-f06d-4263-aa5b-cc9b4f6a838f

[2] http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/german-economic-research-institute-doubles-cost-estimate-refugee-crisis

[3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/11896406/Austrias-Right-wing-populist-party-makes-huge-gains-fuelled-by-migrant-crisis-fears.html

[4] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35088276

[5] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11591313/Ukip-has-done-brilliantly.-And-totally-failed.-How-can-that-be.html

[6] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/27/poland-law-justice-party-wins-235-seats-can-govern-alone

[7] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/swedish-asylum-support-far-right-nationalist-sweden-democrats

Finally some moderate commentary.

Irish Praetorian

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I see. It's a sudden interest in LGBT rights and womens rights from a lot of people who never cared about us at all.

Strange, I was actually just about to comment how odd it was that the usual LGBT haunts (which are normally pretty reliable about catching violence against trans persons and LGBT people in general) have been silent as a crypt on this one.

Fleawuss

Azalea wrote: »

Finally some moderate commentary.

And the risk to European citizens and the freedoms of European citizens is covered by "there will be tensions". The first duty of government is to protect its own citizens.

Asaiah

Germany is not helping Syria by throwing open the gates for every one who can make the journey, mostly young fit strong men chancing their arms who are not even from Syria.

Those that are from Syria likely abandoning women and children to die or starve. Yes of course there are genuine people in need, but most of them are likely trapped in Syria by the rebels or Isis occupying their towns. What are we doing to help them ? Nothing!

Stop arming the jihadi's and let Assad restore peace to the country with Russia's help. This would be over in a year and Syria would return to it's former peaceful state.

If the western powers that be had not armed and coerced these Jihadi rebel groups by trying to create another 'arab spring' revolution none of this would have happened.

Syria was a peaceful prosperous country by all accounts before the West decided Assad had to go.

ceadaoin.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Strange, I was actually just about to comment how odd it was that the usual LGBT haunts (which are normally pretty reliable about catching violence against trans persons and LGBT people in general) have been silent as a crypt on this one.

The type of feminists who would usually be writing articles about sexist air conditioning and the like have also been suspiciously silent about the assaults on women on NYE also.

22catch

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I see. It's a sudden interest in LGBT rights and womens rights from a lot of people who never cared about us at all.

Why do you think that? Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious. I don't look at transgender forums for the same reasons that I don't look at say, football forums for example, i.e, it doesn't directly affect my life. That being said, like most people I would support the rights of LGBT people and women. Ireland couldn't really have been more clear on our support for LGBT than we were during the referendum last year.

Annasopra

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Strange, I was actually just about to comment how odd it was that the usual LGBT haunts (which are normally pretty reliable about catching violence against trans persons and LGBT people in general) have been silent as a crypt on this one.

:rolleyes:

The LGBT forum is quiet in general. And as we have seen in the recent referendum LGBT people don't think with a hive mind.

Irish Praetorian

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

:rolleyes:

The LGBT forum is quiet in general. And as we have seen in the recent referendum LGBT people don't think with a hive mind.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Right, because I was obviously talking about the boards.ie LGBT forum, as opposed to say sites like Queerty or PinkNews, which have said nothing. Instead, the first gay-site I see referencing the issue is Attitude, just 2-3 links above Stormfront...

Asaiah

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The type of feminists who would usually be writing articles about sexist air conditioning and the like have also been suspiciously silent about the assaults on women on NYE also.

I think this is because they cannot push their agenda through real issues, only manufactured issues that they can control and manipulate.

Annasopra

22catch wrote: »

Why do you think that? Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious. I don't look at transgender forums for the same reasons that I don't look at say, football forums for example, i.e, it doesn't directly affect my life. That being said, like most people I would support the rights of LGBT people and women. Ireland couldn't really have been more clear on our support for LGBT than we were during the referendum last year.

I don't get the looking at forums reference. I never said only people who support LGBT rights look at the LGBT forum or only people who look at the Ladies Lounge care about Womens rights. I also don't understand the point you are making about Irish people here. I did not say that most Irish people don't care about LGBT or Womens rights. I made the point as have several others that in this thread SOME people who have never cared about womens rights or LGBT rights before and SOME who have been actively hostile to womens and LGBT rights are showing a sudden concern. I am not generalising about everyone on AH. There are many many people on AH who have always supported LGBT and Womens rights.

mansize

Asaiah wrote: »

Germany is not helping Syria by throwing open the gates for every one who can make the journey, mostly young fit strong men chancing their arms who are not even from Syria.

Those that are from Syria likely abandoning women and children to die or starve. Yes of course there are genuine people in need, but most of them are likely trapped in Syria by the rebels or Isis occupying their towns. What are we doing to help them ? Nothing!

Stop arming the jihadi's and let Assad restore peace to the country with Russia's help. This would be over in a year and Syria would return to it's former peaceful state.

If the western powers that be had not armed and coerced these Jihadi rebel groups by trying to create another 'arab spring' revolution none of this would have happened.

Syria was a peaceful prosperous country by all accounts before the West decided Assad had to go.

He wasn't gassing anyone

22catch

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I don't get the looking at forums reference. I never said only people who support LGBT rights look at the LGBT forum or only people who look at the Ladies Lounge care about Womens rights. I also don't understand the point you are making about Irish people here. I did not say that most Irish people don't care about LGBT or Womens rights. I made the point as have several others that in this thread SOME people who have never cared about womens rights or LGBT rights before and SOME who have been actively hostile to womens and LGBT rights are showing a sudden concern. I am not generalising about everyone on AH. There are many many people on AH who have always supported LGBT and Womens rights.

You clearly implied that you think people are using LGBT and womens rights as some kind of cover for being anti mass immigration. I referenced Irish people because I'm referring specifically to Boards.ie and Irish posters. People can be worried about the negative affects of importing millions of people whose religion despises the freedoms that we enjoy in our country and within Europe. I'm pro rights for women, LGBT and equality in general and I believe we should be supporting those people affected by war and oppression, but not by bringing them en masse and unscreened to Europe.

One eyed Jack

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I don't get the looking at forums reference. I never said only people who support LGBT rights look at the LGBT forum or only people who look at the Ladies Lounge care about Womens rights. I also don't understand the point you are making about Irish people here. I did not say that most Irish people don't care about LGBT or Womens rights. I made the point as have several others that in this thread SOME people who have never cared about womens rights or LGBT rights before and SOME who have been actively hostile to womens and LGBT rights are showing a sudden concern. I am not generalising about everyone on AH. There are many many people on AH who have always supported LGBT and Womens rights.

I think it's simply the case that a common 'enemy' so to speak, can make for some strange bedfellows.

Normal service shall resume once the 'threat' has subsided.

Asaiah

mansize wrote: »

He wasn't gassing anyone

I am not pro Assad and not defending him. Frankly I don't know if he was or was not, all I know is that Syria was a peaceful safe country before the West decided to back the so called moderates.


You know what will happen if they get rid of Assad ? Some other warlord dictator will come to power.

Annasopra

22catch wrote: »

You clearly implied that you think people are using LGBT and womens rights as some kind of cover for being anti mass immigration.

Yes. That is the point I was making. SOME people here are doing exactly that. I never said all boards.ie posters. I never said all AH posters. I never said all Irish people.

Annasopra

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think it's simply the case that a common 'enemy' so to speak, can make for some strange bedfellows.

Normal service shall resume once the 'threat' has subsided.

No. It's more that SOME people who never cared about LGBT rights or Womens are suddenly showing faux concern about us. If this was an attack against a trans person in Ireland by Irish people it simply wouldn't concern SOME of those showing the faux concern right now.

jungleman

Links234 wrote: »

It's funny, I've had to stop posting in After Hours altogether because of the general hostility towards transgender people. There used to be quite a few regular posters here who were trans, but they'd mostly been driven off boards because of animosity shown towards them, closed accounts and users who haven't posted in a long time. I've seen threads where an article about transgender women were attacked was met with people saying how the victims probably deserved it. Any time a thread about anything trans related pops up on After Hours, it's filled with hatred and antipathy, the usual crowd descend to let trans people know just what they think of them; mentally ill, degenerate freaks. There'll be insults, slurs and 'jokes' and everyone'll backslap each other over it, we'll have the usual "But what if someone identified as the anthropomorphic personification of a slippery slope argument?"

And now After Hours cares? Well isn't that just darling!

You didn't care that in the US, murders of trans people have reached an all-time high since they started tracking murders?

Or that transgender Americans are 4 times as likely to live in poverty?

You didn't care that 41% of transgender people have attempted suicide at least once in their lifetime?

You didn't care about Jennifer Laude when she was murdered by a US marine?

You didn't care about Vikki Thompson who was found dead after she was sent to an all-male prison in the UK?

You didn't care about Sabi Beriani when she was stabbed to death and her body burned, but her killer Levan Kochlashvili was acquitted of her murder?

You didn't care when Yoshi Tsuchida's body was found wrapped in a blanket in his Tokyo apartment with his face cut off?

You didn't care when Leelah Alcorn took her own life after being subjected to "conversion therapy" by her family?

You didn't care when a pipe bomb was thrown through Rachael Keys' window in Derry just last November?

You don't care that attacks on transgender people happen right here in Ireland all the time, yet there's no outcry, no concern. I've had people throw things at me from passing cars, there's been times I've felt so anxious I decided not to leave the house. Trans people the world over face rampant discrimination, hatred, shockingly high rates of sexual assault and rape, struggle to find work, even friends, are disproportionately homeless. Transgender activists are screaming and shouting about these issues, but the only time After Hours wants to listen is when someone complains about a cisgender actor being cast as a transgender person, and then After Hours wants to comment, "Hahaha, crazies trannies eh? So easily offended, they'll complain about nothing lol!"

So what's happened? Why do you suddenly care? Oh right, Muslims. Congrats After Hours, we've finally found a group you hate more than trans people. Bravo.

Pretty sure just like the sudden concern for homelessness, this too shall pass, and you'll be right back to calling trans people mentally ill degenerates, posting the next article from some hack journalist like Richard Littlejohn or that odious Trump-humper Milo, and you'll be giving them all the praise you can for "telling it like it is!", or otherwise mocking and making fun of us, regurgitating those idiotic attack helicopter memes. Meanwhile trans people are still going to face discrimination, murder, high rates of sexual assault, suicide and homelessness, and I doubt you'll care if there's not a Muslim in sight to blame. Opportunistic vultures.

Don't expect a reply if you respond to this comment, I really have had enough of this cesspit.

Edit: And I'd like to entend an apology to the mods, I know you try your best, and this isn't a dig at you.

I've recently taken a bit of a break from boards, so I'm not really sure about the direction AH has gone in, if it really is a cesspit or not.

I commented on the thread earlier, and I don't mean this as a slight or an insult, but I don't particularly care that the victim of this attack were trans. Just like I wouldn't particularly care if they were described as white, or gay, or straight, or black, or Asian, or whatever.

I think that the reason this attack is being discussed so fervently is because people see how Islam is a sham, a political ideology which masquerades as a religion, and how it mixes with the "western" ideology like oil and water.

People are worried that if large amounts of Muslims arrive here, not only will they not try/want to integrate into our society, but that we'll have a situation like we're seeing in Germany, Sweden, Denmark, and in parts of the UK. It's reasonable to discuss it, and see both sides. Not everyone is here with an agenda.

I really don't think it's a case of people hating Muslims that bit more than trans people. It's just social commentary on how enforced multiculturalism in Europe has failed.

The_Kew_Tour

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

So that'd be another no then. You have nothing to back up your claim the Jerusalem Post is posting content purely concerned with the every day safety of people in Germany.

It's ok you can admit you lied and pretended they weren't posting it because it was a negative story about Muslims. We'll know you're full of shít (tbh we know that already) but at least we'll know you're not completely blind.

No I didn't lie. You can see stuff just like today that does not suit your agenda.

In fact it's there for everyone to read.

So it's not a lie, sorry

Edit: here it is, sorry


http://m.jpost.com/International/North-African-men-attempt-to-stone-transgender-women-in-German-city-441695#article=6018NEI5NDNFRjNCMzhERDUxNEIzNzdDRTRDNDc0QUM2QUQ=

Irish Praetorian

Asaiah wrote: »

I am not pro Assad and not defending him. Frankly I don't know if he was or was not, all I know is that Syria was a peaceful safe country before the West decided to back the so called moderates.


You know what will happen if they get rid of Assad ? Some other warlord dictator will come to power.

Yup, it was all the fault of 'the West' (TM), its completely impossible for people in the rest of the world to have any control over their actions/want to do bad things/have desires other than those of a textbook social liberal, unless of course the ebil West tricks them into doing it...

Thelomen Toblackai

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No I didn't lie. You can see stuff just like today that does not suit your agenda.

In fact it's there for everyone to read.

So it's not a lie, sorry

Edit: here it is, sorry


http://m.jpost.com/International/North-African-men-attempt-to-stone-transgender-women-in-German-city-441695#article=6018NEI5NDNFRjNCMzhERDUxNEIzNzdDRTRDNDc0QUM2QUQ=

What am I supposed to be looking at ? A local story of stone throwing in Jerusalem ?

That's proof the Jerusalem Post carried the story about the transgender women being stoned in Germany because they care about the lives of gay and transgnder people in Germany ?

I'll ask you again for what must be the third or fourth time. Does the Jerusalem Post have any stories about attacks in Europe that aren't about Muslims ? To back up your claim that they weren't just running another negative story about Muslims in Europe ? No they don't. Because they don't care about regular attacks in Europe, or the safety of transgender people in Germany. They care about Muslim attacks in Europe.

But keep blindly claiming otherwise.

Paramite Pie

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. It's more that SOME people who never cared about LGBT rights or Womens are suddenly showing faux concern about us. If this was an attack against a trans person in Ireland by Irish people it simply wouldn't concern SOME of those showing the faux concern right now.

I'm sure there are Right Wingers who are enjoying the fact that some of the victims are LGBT. I've seen such comments on other sites.

I was reading an article about a woman being protected from attack by other Syrians and more than half the commenters were assuming that these must be the "Christian Syrians" we've all been hearing about to the rescue. You can't make this stuff up.

Whosthis

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Yup, it was all the fault of 'the West' (TM), its completely impossible for people in the rest of the world to have any control over their actions/want to do bad things/have desires other than those of a textbook social liberal, unless of course the ebil West tricks them into doing it...

Are you denying the fact that the west deliberately destabilised Syria? I'm having trouble understanding your post. The west's involvement in the current situation in Syria is quite well documented.

Irish Praetorian

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. It's more that SOME people who never cared about LGBT rights or Womens are suddenly showing faux concern about us. If this was an attack against a trans person in Ireland by Irish people it simply wouldn't concern SOME of those showing the faux concern right now.

Maybe they didn't give a damn about us then and chances are most don't give much of a damn about the plight of trans people now - there's nothing particularly wrong with that, our society typically manages to trundle along without large groups of people 'giving a damn' about one another, and usually when people profess to 'give a damn' about some group (such as the homeless) it's a lot of empty talk which says more about how these people want to be seen more than anything else.

Regardless, for the substantive issue, there is a lot of common ground to be had, and whilst I suspect anyone here talking up their commitment to trans rights, I think people might be able to come together on not engaging in acts of violence towards people due to their sexuality and especially not importing large numbers of people who might not share that restrained view.

questionmark?

Asaiah wrote: »

You know what will happen if they get rid of Assad ? Some other warlord dictator will come to power.

A lot worse would take his place. Syria was a generally peaceful place for most (not all) now it is a hell hole thats safe for no one.

Irish Praetorian

Whosthis wrote: »

Are you denying the fact that the west deliberately destabilised Syria? I'm having trouble understanding your post. The west's involvement in the current situation in Syria is quite well documented.

I would challenge the assertion (not fact) that the West was somehow more culpable for the ongoings in Syria than the countries providing and funding the fighters, arming the Assad Regime or in creating a Caliphate, than any of the other players involved. In any case the point is immaterial to a thread about two trans women being attacked in Germany.

Annasopra

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Regardless, for the substantive issue, there is a lot of common ground to be had, and whilst I suspect anyone here talking up their commitment to trans rights, I think people might be able to come together on not engaging in acts of violence towards people due to their sexuality and especially not importing large numbers of people who might not share that restrained view.

I certainly wouldnt agree with that at all. This is what I was referring to earlier in a different more sinister way. It's using trans rights against Muslims. I would be heavily opposed to this subversion. It's an ideologically dividing tactic which is trying to set one group against another. Of course there are huge problems within Islam on womens rights and LGBT rights and of course LGBT and Feminist movements need to work on those but this idea that therefore LGBT and Feminist movements must work against broader human rights by opposing all immigration is frankly in my view ideologically sickening. Human rights and humanity are the common issue here not the opposite of setting out false dichotomies of Islam V Women or Islam V LGBT or Islam V Europeans. There are after all many European Muslims, liberal Female Muslims and indeed LGBT Muslims. You can seek "that" common ground if you want. I won't. For me the common ground is humanity and human rights and I reject these ideologies that tell me because I'm a gay man I must hate all Muslims and all Muslims hate me and that all refugees are rapists.

The_Kew_Tour

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

What am I supposed to be looking at ? A local story of stone throwing in Jerusalem ?

That's proof the Jerusalem Post carried the story about the transgender women being stoned in Germany because they care about the lives of gay and transgnder people in Germany ?

I'll ask you again for what must be the third or fourth time. Does the Jerusalem Post have any stories about attacks in Europe that aren't about Muslims ? To back up your claim that they weren't just running another negative story about Muslims in Europe ? No they don't. Because they don't care about regular attacks in Europe, or the safety of transgender people in Germany. They care about Muslim attacks in Europe.

But keep blindly claiming otherwise.

Here is a piece from same paper who are concerned about Jewish terrorism

Wanna move the goalposts again to suit your agenda?
http://m.jpost.com/International/North-African-men-attempt-to-stone-transgender-women-in-German-city-441695#article=6017RDJDNDE0NEQ3ODYyQzU5ODdFMEJDRDUxQzY2RjAzMjE=

Whosthis

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Here is a piece from same paper who are concerned about Jewish terrorism

Wanna move the goalposts again to suit your agenda?
http://m.jpost.com/International/North-African-men-attempt-to-stone-transgender-women-in-German-city-441695#article=6017RDJDNDE0NEQ3ODYyQzU5ODdFMEJDRDUxQzY2RjAzMjE=

Thats a piece about Jew on Jew terrorism, it hardly proves your point.

The_Kew_Tour

Whosthis wrote: »

Thats a piece about Jew on Jew terrorism, it hardly proves your point.

Lol

Will I have to give ye every article?

Thelomen Toblackai

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Lol

Will I have to give ye every article?

Just the articles I've asked for. The ones you claimed existed on every day attacks on people in Germany that prove your claim that the Jerusalem Post didn't just run the article because it involved Muslims but because of concern for transgender people in Germany on which you claimed it has ran other stories. Should be easy to find no ? Seeing as you've apparently seen these other stories...

So far all you've done is offer two local news stories about Jewish crimes. Why you think that proves anything other than Jerusalem Post runs local news stories is beyond me.

I think we're back to the absurd claims of bias without any ability to actually back it up.

The_Kew_Tour

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Just the articles I've asked for. The ones you claimed existed on every day attacks on people in Germany that prove your claim that the Jerusalem Post didn't just run the article because it involved Muslims but because of concern for transgender people in Germany.

So far all you've done is offer two local news stories about Jewish crimes. Why you think that proves anything other than Jerusalem Post runs local news stories is beyond me.

Oh, ok, I see, so you want something that may not have happened? Did they cover The Larry Murphy case in Ireland? Because if they did and every other rapist case in world then I'll be one to apologise.

I'll do bit of searching see if anything comes up.

Irish Praetorian

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I certainly wouldnt agree with that at all. This is what I was referring to earlier in a different more sinister way. It's using trans rights against Muslims. I would be heavily opposed to this subversion. It's an ideologically dividing tactic which is trying to set one group against another. Of course there are huge problems within Islam on womens rights and LGBT rights and of course LGBT and Feminist movements need to work on those but this idea that therefore LGBT and Feminist movements must work against broader human rights by opposing all immigration is frankly in my view ideologically sickening. Human rights and humanity are the common issue here not the opposite of setting out false dichotomies of Islam V Women or Islam V LGBT or Islam V Europeans. There are after all many European Muslims, liberal Female Muslims and indeed LGBT Muslims. You can seek "that" common ground if you want. I won't. For me the common ground is humanity and human rights and I reject these ideologies that tell me because I'm a gay man I must hate all Muslims and all Muslims hate me and that all refugees are rapists.

A few corrections before I proceed to the main event. Firstly, no-one has said anything about 'all immigration', you won't find me railing against EU migration or migration deals with countries where we send a lot of people, we are specifically talking about the present 'refugee' wave from the Middle East (which includes a lot of people claiming to be Syrian refugees whilst not actually being such). Secondly, I don't think this is some kind of exclusively Muslim problem and I don't believe I need to rehash the kind of problems we've seen with African Evangelical Christianity, however the present wave of migration from the Near East is the hot topic at the moment. Lastly, no-one is asking you to hate anyone nor assuming that everyone is a rapist, what is being asked is that you reconsider the wisdom of importing more than a million people in a few months.

On the core issue however, have you actually stopped to consider some of what you're saying? 'Of course there are huge problems within Islam on womens rights and LGBT rights and of course LGBT and Feminist movements need to work on those - what the hell does that even mean? Do you seriously think you are just going to 'educate' people out of viewing women as inferiors or gay people as amoral? Do you have any idea how long it took for European states to evolve to the point where gay people could identify themselves openly without it being a cause for execution? More to the point, have you considered the possibility that some people might actually have a genuine belief in their faith and consider the religious imperatives handed down from them actually to be something important? Is this really something you think you can 'work on' in anything less than a decades long time-frame?

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to be cowed into this 'sure aren't we all victims' line of thought simply because some people consider it politically expedient. We don't actually need to look far to see instances of gay asylum seekers being harassed and persecuted by their fellows, to say nothing of female asylum seekers. It is an utter insult that in 21st Century Europe, this is the kind of behaviour we are seeing from people who purport to be fleeing persecution. If you want to make an actual stand for the rights of women and LGBT people, then the absolute last thing you can do is let people know that such behaviour is going to be tolerated in Europe on the grounds of this misguided humanitarianism and so far that is exactly what we have seen in Cologne and elsewhere.

jmayo

MarkAnthony wrote: »

What's scary to me (I relaise this is starting to go in circles) is you and 22catch, 511, aligator_am, Armchair Andy, BigJackC, bluewolf, Cessna_Pilot, citrus burst, Corpus Twisty, Crimsonforce, Dick phelan, edgecutter, fedor.2., HalloweenJack, hmmm, Irish_rat, jmayo, jsa112, kupus, lightspeed, Lone Stone, MRnotlob606, No Opinion, pablomakaveli, Pac1Man, patsfan1286, Penny Tration, rainbow kirby, RDM_83 again, Sierra 117, Simi, speedboatchase, steve_r, sugarman, super_furry, TaosHum, Todd Toddington III, Twiki, VickieVexed1, wendell borton, Wibbs, Wiggles88 and probably other by the time I click post, don't understand the nuance of what BreadnBuddha was actually saying...

These attacks go on every day, perpetrated by all sorts of people. The sensationalist part is the anti-immigration agenda being put forward in many cases.

Now that's not to say there aren't massive issues to deal with, but if we could all engage our brains in relation to potential media manipulation, that'd be great!

Nice of you to put together a nice alphabetically sorted list of posters that seem to actually worry about wherre Euope and this country are going. I would rather be on that list than the one you and a few others around here would be on.

BTW how many of the locals have formed grouips like those in koln, Swedish concern last year ?
How many of the locals teenasgers are banned from swimming pools for interfering with young girls?

Bunny12345

These muslims are just a tiny minority, the rest are all nice people. Like saying a grain of sand represents the whole beach

Thelomen Toblackai

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Oh, ok, I see, so you want something that may not have happened? Did they cover The Larry Murphy case in Ireland? Because if they did and every other rapist case in world then I'll be one to apologise.

I'll do bit of searching see if anything comes up.

May not have happened ? But you clearly said it was reported on by the Jerusalem Post. You wouldn't lie now would you ?

Lets recap because you seem to have gotten lost in your meandering argument. I asked quite clearly.

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

The only reason they printed this was it was an attack carried out by Muslims. You see anything else on that paper about regular attacks in Germany that don't involve Muslims ?

First you try to claim well maybe the reason they didn;t report anything else was maybe nothing else happened that night. And some nonsense about me wanting them to invent something...

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Or maybe

They're was no other attacks in city that night?

You now suggest that they make up a story saying a Christian raped somebody just to have bit of balance which is BS.

So I ask again.

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

It was a simple question, are there any other articles about assaults in Germany that don't feature Muslims on that paper?

Finally I thought we were making a little progress.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The simple answer is yes

So I asked if you'd care to share these articles from the Jerusalem Post on attacks in Germany that didn't feature Muslims.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Well you don't have look far. Today alone they have headlines about 3 Jews who are going on trial for Stoning Muslims.

Amazing eh

First attempt, Jews arrested in Jerusalem.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No I didn't lie. You can see stuff just like today that does not suit your agenda.

In fact it's there for everyone to read.

So it's not a lie, sorry

Edit: here it is, sorry


http://m.jpost.com/International/North-African-men-attempt-to-stone-transgender-women-in-German-city-441695#article=6018NEI5NDNFRjNCMzhERDUxNEIzNzdDRTRDNDc0QUM2QUQ=

Second attempt. No lie, here's the article you said existed on attacks in Germany. A link to the aforementioned attacks by Jews in Jerusalem.....

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Here is a piece from same paper who are concerned about Jewish terrorism

Wanna move the goalposts again to suit your agenda?
http://m.jpost.com/International/North-African-men-attempt-to-stone-transgender-women-in-German-city-441695#article=6017RDJDNDE0NEQ3ODYyQzU5ODdFMEJDRDUxQzY2RjAzMjE=

Third attempt. Another article to back up you're claim of the Jerusalem Posts interest in German events. An article on Jewish extremism in..... Jerusalem...

So it's pretty clear you're a liar. Those articles don't exist. Your claim the JP gives two ****s about German citizens is baseless. And they did in fact run that article only because it was an attack by Muslims.

I'll accept an apology for wasting my time with your ill thought out lies. But I don't expect one.

The_Kew_Tour

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Just the articles I've asked for. The ones you claimed existed on every day attacks on people in Germany that prove your claim that the Jerusalem Post didn't just run the article because it involved Muslims but because of concern for transgender people in Germany on which you claimed it has ran other stories. Should be easy to find no ? Seeing as you've apparently seen these other stories...

So far all you've done is offer two local news stories about Jewish crimes. Why you think that proves anything other than Jerusalem Post runs local news stories is beyond me.

I think we're back to the absurd claims of bias without any ability to actually back it up.

Checked and nothing on Christian boys stoning LGBT or transsexual.

Have you any articles on teenagers doing same in Germany seeing as you say they are not highlighting these?

Also checked few of big German papers online and nothing about Christians beating up gay people.

As well as that browsing this Jewish site, no mention of what happened in many countries across Europe last few days. I only found article about Palestine praising Sweden. No mention of anything South African\American related, few snippets about USA\Iran. Those Jews eh!!!

Are they biased towards their own conflict? Oh dam right they are, and I say it's lopsided.

However, it be interesting to see what they are covering up in Germany when you show me all these attacks by Germans on Gay people over last few weeks.

Look forward to seeing this.....

The_Kew_Tour

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

May not have happened ? But you clearly said it was reported on by the Jerusalem Post. You wouldn't lie now would you ?

Lets recap because you seem to have gotten lost in your meandering argument. I asked quite clearly.



First you try to claim well maybe the reason they didn;t report anything else was maybe nothing else happened that night. And some nonsense about me wanting them to invent something...




So I ask again.



Finally I thought we were making a little progress.



So I asked if you'd care to share these articles from the Jerusalem Post on attacks in Germany that didn't feature Muslims.



First attempt, Jews arrested in Jerusalem.



Second attempt. No lie, here's the article you said existed on attacks in Germany. A link to the aforementioned attacks by Jews in Jerusalem.....



Third attempt. Another article to back up you're claim of the Jerusalem Posts interest in German events. An article on Jewish extremism in..... Jerusalem...

So it's pretty clear you're a liar. Those articles don't exist. Your claim the JP gives two ****s about German citizens is baseless. And they did in fact run that article only because it was an attack by Muslims.

I'll accept an apology for wasting my time with your ill thought out lies. But I don't expect one.

Oh dear. Talk about moving goalposts.

You seem want me apologise for a paper highlighting something the German Police have said happened.

You want good look at yourself first, before you brand anyone anything.

c montgomery

Bunny12345 wrote: »

These muslims are just a tiny minority, the rest are all nice people. Like saying a grain of sand represents the whole beach

And what do you call 1000 youths gathered in cologne abusing girls, a drop in the ocean, storm in a teacup?

Asaiah

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Yup, it was all the fault of 'the West' (TM), its completely impossible for people in the rest of the world to have any control over their actions/want to do bad things/have desires other than those of a textbook social liberal, unless of course the ebil West tricks them into doing it...

There was always tension simmering under the surface in places like Syria, always hardline rebel groups ready to take action but they never had the strenght. The USA and allies helped these rebels gain strenght.

The West is not evil, but whoever it was in the USA who made the decision to arm the rebels and try oust assad helped create the situation we have now. Without US assistance this rebellion could not have taken place and Syria would not be at war.

I am not liberal or socialist, but I am not blind either. An idiot can see that Syria was at peace before the rebels got a little push from the USA.

Annasopra

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

A few corrections before I proceed to the main event. Firstly, no-one has said anything about 'all immigration', you won't find me railing against EU migration or migration deals with countries where we send a lot of people, we are specifically talking about the present 'refugee' wave from the Middle East (which includes a lot of people claiming to be Syrian refugees whilst not actually being such). Secondly, I don't think this is some kind of exclusively Muslim problem and I don't believe I need to rehash the kind of problems we've seen with African Evangelical Christianity, however the present wave of migration from the Near East is the hot topic at the moment. Lastly, no-one is asking you to hate anyone nor assuming that everyone is a rapist, what is being asked is that you reconsider the wisdom of importing more than a million people in a few months.

I'm glad that you changed from "we" to "I"

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

On the core issue however, have you actually stopped to consider some of what you're saying? 'Of course there are huge problems within Islam on womens rights and LGBT rights and of course LGBT and Feminist movements need to work on those - what the hell does that even mean? Do you seriously think you are just going to 'educate' people out of viewing women as inferiors or gay people as amoral? Do you have any idea how long it took for European states to evolve to the point where gay people could identify themselves openly without it being a cause for execution? More to the point, have you considered the possibility that some people might actually have a genuine belief in their faith and consider the religious imperatives handed down from them actually to be something important? Is this really something you think you can 'work on' in anything less than a decades long time-frame?

Of course I have thought long and hard about these things. Without going into any specific detail I've been involved in human rights advocacy broadly for about 17 years. I completely understand that changing attitudes on human rights amongst the general populace and decision makers and human rights education is a long term commitment heavy process. I've seen that on the outside and I've seen that on the inside. And yes I do have an understanding of how many LGBT people struggled (and continue to struggle) for so long to be open and continue to struggle in Ireland and indeed further afield in Europe. I understand that quite well given I have LGBT friends all over Europe from Azerbaijan and Russia to Amsterdam and Berlin. Of course some people of faith can genuinely believe in their version of religious doctrine but many people of faith also take a broader human rights view. Indeed I have friends in Muslim and Jewish communities who are also involved in human rights defense.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to be cowed into this 'sure aren't we all victims' line of thought simply because some people consider it politically expedient. We don't actually need to look far to see instances of gay asylum seekers being harassed and persecuted by their fellows, to say nothing of female asylum seekers. It is an utter insult that in 21st Century Europe, this is the kind of behaviour we are seeing from people who purport to be fleeing persecution. If you want to make an actual stand for the rights of women and LGBT people, then the absolute last thing you can do is let people know that such behaviour is going to be tolerated in Europe on the grounds of this misguided humanitarianism and so far that is exactly what we have seen in Cologne and elsewhere.

I'm not cowing you into anything. I am stating that I believe your ideology of creating false dichotomies of Islam V West, Islam V Europe, Islam V Women, Islam V LGBT is dangerous. I stand by my approach on this: rejecting violence and extremist hate speech and seeking solidarity through a human rights approach that doesn't seek to divide us against each other.

Whosthis

Asaiah wrote: »

There was always tension simmering under the surface in places like Syria, always hardline rebel groups ready to take action but they never had the strenght. The USA and allies helped these rebels gain strenght.

The West is not evil, but whoever it was in the USA who made the decision to arm the rebels and try oust assad hepled create the situation we have now.

I am not liberal or socialist, but I am not blind either. An idiot can see that Syria was at peace before the rebels got a little push from the USA.

One Hillary Clinton by most accounts.

Asaiah

Whosthis wrote: »

One Hillary Clinton by most accounts.

God help the human race if that monster gets back into the whitehouse. She's been gunning for middle eastern blood since the start. People like her are a bigger threat to world peace than the likes of Assad.

Fleawuss

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I certainly wouldnt agree with that at all. This is what I was referring to earlier in a different more sinister way. It's using trans rights against Muslims. I would be heavily opposed to this subversion. It's an ideologically dividing tactic which is trying to set one group against another. Of course there are huge problems within Islam on womens rights and LGBT rights and of course LGBT and Feminist movements need to work on those but this idea that therefore LGBT and Feminist movements must work against broader human rights by opposing all immigration is frankly in my view ideologically sickening. Human rights and humanity are the common issue here not the opposite of setting out false dichotomies of Islam V Women or Islam V LGBT or Islam V Europeans. There are after all many European Muslims, liberal Female Muslims and indeed LGBT Muslims. You can seek "that" common ground if you want. I won't. For me the common ground is humanity and human rights and I reject these ideologies that tell me because I'm a gay man I must hate all Muslims and all Muslims hate me and that all refugees are rapists.

The problem you have is that the version of being human in Islam is different to that in Western Europe. (And let it be said Western European version is different to evangelical US christians and Ugandan christian version). Islam is one of these "divine revelation" religions which is what makes it very difficult to reason with people who actually believe it.

I'm a gay man who doesn't hate Muslims or believe they are all rapists. I do believe that Islam is a religion whose core values are deeply at odds with Western European values. I would welcome immigrants if they were all made to realise that they have been saved from their own fcuked up culture on the understanding that they are here on our terms, not theirs.

Annasopra

Fleawuss wrote: »

The problem you have is that the version of being human in Islam is different to that in Western Europe. (And let it be said Western European version is different to evangelical US christians and Ugandan christian version). Islam is one of these "divine revelation" religions which is what makes it very difficult to reason with people who actually believe it.

I'm a gay man who doesn't hate Muslims or believe they are all rapists. I do believe that Islam is a religion whose core values are deeply at odds with Western European values. I would welcome immigrants if they were all made to realise that they have been saved from their own fcuked up culture on the understanding that they are here on our terms, not theirs.

But you see this isn't really correct. I've worked with Muslim organisations and individuals who work in a human rights context. The problem I have with what you just said is that you literally stereotyped all Muslims and the culture of all Muslims despite claiming that you were not going to generalise or stereotype. You've stereotyped all muslims as unreasonable people. You've stereotyped all immigrants as coming from a fcuked up culture. You have set up a false dichotomy of Western Europe versus immigrants.

StewartGriffin

jmayo wrote: »

I would rather be on that list than the one you and a few others around here would be on.

That's what it all boils down to isn't it? Picking sides. Little boys in the playground. Not clever enough to see the spectrum.

Thelomen Toblackai

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Checked and nothing on Christian boys stoning LGBT or transsexual.

Have you any articles on teenagers doing same in Germany seeing as you say they are not highlighting these?

Also checked few of big German papers online and nothing about Christians beating up gay people.

As well as that browsing this Jewish site, no mention of what happened in many countries across Europe last few days. I only found article about Palestine praising Sweden. No mention of anything South African\American related, few snippets about USA\Iran. Those Jews eh!!!

Are they biased towards their own conflict? Oh dam right they are, and I say it's lopsided.

However, it be interesting to see what they are covering up in Germany when you show me all these attacks by Germans on Gay people over last few weeks.

Look forward to seeing this.....

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Oh dear. Talk about moving goalposts.

You seem want me apologise for a paper highlighting something the German Police have said happened.

You want good look at yourself first, before you brand anyone anything.

Moving goalposts ? If asking you to back up your claim is moving the goalposts then we're in trouble...

And why do you keep talking about Jews ?

The_Kew_Tour

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Moving goalposts ? If asking you to back up your claim is moving the goalposts then we're in trouble...

And why do you keep talking about Jews ?

Well you haven't backed up your claim

Fleawuss

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

But you see this isn't really correct. I've worked with Muslim organisations and individuals who work in a human rights context. The problem I have with what you just said is that you literally stereotyped all Muslims and the culture of all Muslims despite claiming that you were not going to generalise or stereotype. You've stereotyped all muslims as unreasonable people. You've stereotyped all immigrants as coming from a fcuked up culture. You have set up a false dichotomy of Western Europe versus immigrants.

I've actually made a distinction between Muslims as people and the Islamic religion. If immigrants want asylum and deserve it fine: but they accept the supremacy and priority of Western European values and laws over their religion.
I haven't stereotyped Muslims as unreasonable: I've pointed out that in in any revealed religion you cannot argue with what god said. Revealed religions only move on when they quietly abandon whole areas of "divinely inspired" texts like Christianity did with parts of the Old Testament.

And finally, the Syrian refugees are certainly fleeing a fcuked up culture: a sectarian religious divide.

Thelomen Toblackai

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Well you haven't backed up your claim either

So this is your process is it ? Make a claim, lie about having something to back it up, avoid having to produce said evidence, when pushed give any old shíte, when called out as a liar claim the goalposts have been moved, when that doesn't wash throw out the old "Yeah but you haven't proven anything..".

You didn't answer my other question. Why were you trying to turn the discussion into one about Jews rather than the paper ?

BigJackC

The Economist wrote:

SINCE the attacks in Cologne several commentators have argued that Europe has a “man problem”. Writing in Politico Magazine, Valerie Hudson, a political scientist, argued that “the sex ratios among migrants are so one-sided...that they could radically change the gender balance in European countries in certain age cohorts”—especially young ones. Is this the case?

More young men than young women have indeed been coming to Europe. Of the 1.2m asylum applicants in the last 12 months of available data, 73% were men, up from 66% in 2012. Those men skew increasingly young: according to Eurostat, the proportion of male asylum claimants who were 18- to 34-year-olds was 40% in October 2015 (the latest available data), up from 35% in 2012. Males between 14 and 17 years old accounted for 11% of all asylum-seekers, up from 5% in 2012.

The numbers, however, differ by nationality. Around 60% of all male asylum-seekers from Algeria and Morocco were 18- to 34-year-olds. By contrast just 48% of the Iraqis, 38% of the Syrians and 31% of the Afghans fell into this age group. Proportions of young males also differ by host country (see chart). Sweden took three asylum-seekers for every 1,000 inhabitants in the 12 months to September 2015. That is the highest ratio in Europe. Alongside this, it also has more young male asylum-seekers: in the past 12 months 17% were 14- to 17-year-olds, compared with only 6% in Germany.

This will alter the sex ratio for some age groups in Sweden. As Ms Hudson points out, the teenage population will become more male: currently there are 106 male 14- to 17-year-olds for every 100 women. If all asylum applications are granted, this will change to 116 men to 100 women, while for those aged between 18 and 34 the male-to-female ratio will go from 105:100 to 107:100. This is worrisome. Skewed sex ratios would mean lots of sexually frustrated young men, which is a recipe for trouble.

But the example of Sweden does not reflect what will happen across the whole of Europe. (Ms Hudson also conflates asylum applications with asylum granted. Not all of the 20,000 16- to 17-year-olds she says entered Sweden in 2015 will receive full refugee status; on current trends, around 17,000 will.) The countries that will be most affected are small, with populations under 10m. Sweden, Hungary, Austria and Norway would see the biggest sex-ratio changes (and only if they accepted all the asylum-seekers who applied). Germany has less to worry about. If it accepted all the young males who sought asylum in the year to October 2015, its sex ratios would go from 106:100 to 107:100 for 14- to 17-year-olds and from 105:100 to 106:100 for 18- to 34-year-olds. Europe does not have a man problem. Sweden may have.

Deutsche Welle wrote:

In an interview with the mass-market "Bild am Sonntag" newspaper, Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA) President Holger Münch said offenses in accommodations for asylum seekers had increased "enormously" but still amounted to what he called a "relatively low" number of cases.

People living in the accommodations, particularly many young men, have spent many months in a confined space and "under conditions that promote crime," he added.

"Migrants, particularly from the Balkans or from North Africa - especially Moroccans, Tunisians and Algerians - commit criminal offenses," Münch said, adding that such cases were less frequent among Syrian and Iraqi immigrants.

According to the BKA president, half of the offenses at the refugee homes were violent crimes, such as assault, but there was also an increasing number of sexual offences and homicides.

Mass unfettered and unchecked immigration of relatively unskilled single young men from a culture that is polar opposites of the culture within Europe. What could go wrong?

The genie is out of the bottle and incidents like the two transsexual woman being stoned, incidents like in Köln etc will become the norm throughout Europe. All of this was entirely predictable.