Honda Hybrid info please.

Chippy01

I'm on my second Prius, and am enjoying every mile. I had a MK II for a couple of years and then stepped up to a MK III.

Herself drives an old '03 Civic hatch, and is looking to come up the years, at least to '08.
She's been looking around for something small-ish engine sized, and with low running costs. Her annual mileage (6,000 miles) doesn't warrant a diesel, and she doesn't like the usual run-of-the-mill small cars that are out there, but she does like the Prius.
But her finances won't stretch as far as a Prius, so she has started looking at Civic Hybrid saloons and Insights. Those I've seen on the usual selling sites look nice enough, and are, in fact, lower priced than the equivalent Prius.

But I know nothing about Honda Hybrids. I know they work different to Toyota/Lexus Hybrids, but that's about as far as it goes.

Anybody know the ins and outs, and possible pit-falls of the Honda Hybrids?
Anything she should look out for when looking at one?
Anything she should stay away from?

TIA.

DublinDilbert

Chippy01 wrote: »

I'm on my second Prius, and am enjoying every mile. I had a MK II for a couple of years and then stepped up to a MK III.

Herself drives an old '03 Civic hatch, and is looking to come up the years, at least to '08.
She's been looking around for something small-ish engine sized, and with low running costs. Her annual mileage (6,000 miles) doesn't warrant a diesel, and she doesn't like the usual run-of-the-mill small cars that are out there, but she does like the Prius.
But her finances won't stretch as far as a Prius, so she has started looking at Civic Hybrid saloons and Insights. Those I've seen on the usual selling sites look nice enough, and are, in fact, lower priced than the equivalent Prius.

But I know nothing about Honda Hybrids. I know they work different to Toyota/Lexus Hybrids, but that's about as far as it goes.

Anybody know the ins and outs, and possible pit-falls of the Honda Hybrids?
Anything she should look out for when looking at one?
Anything she should stay away from?

TIA.

Honda hybrid is just an assist, so the 1.3 engine has a higher power output from the electric motor. It will improve the mpg but only by a bit and nothing like a toyota hybrid.

Prisus are expensive, try the auris hybrid, fraction of the price for the same technology as the prius / ct220.

The Honda hybrid isn't nearly as good as the Prius but if you can get it for a good price then economy doesn't really matter over 6,000 miles a year, not saying it doesn't matter but the difference between that and the two cars wouldn't really make a huge difference at 6,000 miles a year.

If the Honda can be got cheaper than the Prius I would say go for it if she likes it.

What's your budget ?

Chippy01

Deleted User wrote: »

If the Honda can be got cheaper than the Prius I would say go for it if she likes it.

What's your budget ?

Looking at the pics online, she says that she would prefer either of the Honda hybrids (or a Prius) rather than anything else in the small petrol range of cars available.
The proof would be when she gets herself into one for a drive.
The choice would ultimately be hers, I just want her to be aware of any pitfalls.

She says she has about 5,000 put aside for changing her car, plus of course her old car as well.
How far beyond that she can stretch, I don't know.

Chippy01

Chippy01 wrote: »

Looking at the pics online, she says that she would prefer either of the Honda hybrids (or a Prius) rather than anything else in the small petrol range of cars available.
The proof would be when she gets herself into one for a drive.
The choice would ultimately be hers, I just want her to be aware of any pitfalls.

She says she has about 5,000 put aside for changing her car, plus of course her old car as well.
How far beyond that she can stretch, I don't know.

To be honest, with her little mileage she isn't short of choices, there are some decent petrols still around in the 1.0L to 1.4.

I am not aware of any real issues with the Honda Hybrids but I don't know much about them like the Prius.

They can give issue with batteries from 10+ years regardless of mileage but it's not common, Usually it's 3-4 failed cells which isn't a huge issue but Toyota or Honda will only replace the whole battery which costs about 2400 Euro's including labour however, this may or may not happen while your Wife owns the car. But it would guarantee the car runs for many more years.

Having said this, it's a risk with any old car, you could have to replace an engine, gearbox etc.

n97 mini

We have a 2004 HCH and a 2010 Prius. Both of us prefer the HCH, it's just a nicer car, though it's a bit dated.

Economy wise the HCH does 55 mpg all day long (probably 50-50 urban-long distance) and the Prius doesn't really do any better. The Prius has more poke, as the ICE is bigger, so over taking is easier in it. At 120km/h it will get better fuel economy than the HCH as the aerodynamics are better, but at 90-100 they both do about the same. With a bit of effort the HCH can do a tad over 70mpg on a run.

Servicing the HCH is the same as any other petrol car as there is essentially just an extra bit in between the engine and gearbox (the IMA motor/generator). The Prius is mechanically very very complex in comparison. The only expensive service parts in the HCH are the spark plugs, which cost you around €30 each and it takes 8. For some reason the same plugs are $7 on Amazon.com. The only other thing of note is the 12v battery is tiny and they are known to last only 2 to 2.5 years. We've had ours for 9 years now and that certainly is the case.

If the hybrid battery fails (very very rare, ours is still performing as good as it did when we got it) there is a place in the UK that will refurbish it by replacing the bad cells for a fixed fee of around £500 iirc. If you're able to change the engine oil changing the battery isn't much harder.

Chippy01

Thanks to all that replied.

Herself went ahead and got a '08 Civic Hybrid, with all the bells and whistles (leather, nav, etc)

The hybrid differences aren't really that apparent, but I've only driven it a couple of times. The point is, she loves it; hell of a leap from the old '03 hatchback she had.

Now, has anyone got a few €€€€'s lying around doing nothing? I've been torturing myself by looking (online only, so far) at the new 2016 Prius .................

n97 mini

Well wear. The only reason we haven't updated our HCH is the newer model is automatic only (and fuel economy slightly suffers for it), but we needed to keep a manual for the learner driver that lives with us.

Chippy01

Chippy01 wrote: »

Thanks to all that replied.

Herself went ahead and got a '08 Civic Hybrid, with all the bells and whistles (leather, nav, etc)

The hybrid differences aren't really that apparent, but I've only driven it a couple of times. The point is, she loves it; hell of a leap from the old '03 hatchback she had.

Now, has anyone got a few €€€€'s lying around doing nothing? I've been torturing myself by looking (online only, so far) at the new 2016 Prius .................

Best of luck with the Civic,

Check out the 30 Kwh Leaf, cheaper than the Prius, far cheaper to run, I also much prefer the EV only drive train.

It charges faster than the 24 Kwh Leaf too from the fast charger.

The 30 Kwh top spec Leaf with 6.6 Kw charger would work out cheaper than the Prius. Anyway, it's worth a serious look especially with the longer range and faster charging.

It will do 140-170 Kms.

Chippy01

Deleted User wrote: »

Best of luck with the Civic,

Check out the 30 Kwh Leaf, cheaper than the Prius, far cheaper to run, I also much prefer the EV only drive train.

It charges faster than the 24 Kwh Leaf too from the fast charger.

The 30 Kwh top spec Leaf with 6.6 Kw charger would work out cheaper than the Prius. Anyway, it's worth a serious look especially with the longer range and faster charging.

It will do 140-170 Kms.

The range is the problem here, not the price
Although the Leaf is undoubtedly a competent vehicle, it's still very limited. Battery technology needs to improve immensely before I would even think about getting a totally electric vehicle.

Although not 100% perfect, the Prius is for me, the best of the bunch. I don't do the mileage to warrant a diesel, but I sometimes do trips with more distance than a Leaf's range would offer. Stopping en-route to recharge isn't always convenient either.

I know you're a great advocate of EV's, and if it suits your lifestyle that's fine.
For the time being, I will stick to 'basic' hybrids, thanks.

cros13

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

I do on average 50,000km a year in an EV with no issues.
From April I'll be adding a Portlaoise to Dublin commute to that mileage.
With the new commute I'll be saving €10,000+ in fuel alone per year vs a 2L diesel.

Rapid charging on long trips isn't really that much of an inconvenience.
Starting every day with a full battery is a luxury compared to having to go to a special shop to buy ludicrously expensive fuel.

I think it was quiet clear from his tone to me in his last post that he's not interested in electrics. Or he thinks us EV owners have a superiority complex.

n97 mini

FWIW, we plan on replacing the Prius with a Leaf later in the year. That is once I figure out what ESB are planning on charging for access to charge points.

Water John

It is still early days. In another few years, public charge points won't be that important. With larger capacity batteries and faster charging there will be no reason for not buying EV and many reasons for.

Thinking of getting Leaf in the next few months, as I generally don't do long drives. For some doing fairly long commutes regularly I can see holding off for 2 or 3 years as a logical move. If you are really committed like Mad Lad, you won't mind the little inconveniences of plotting you journey and having stops. Mad sees it as a little game he enjoys and bully for him.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

EV owners have a superiority complex.

Yes.... but it's a justified superiority complex.

corcaigh07

Quick question guys, a Civic Hybrid with 140k miles, can it be trusted or will the batteries fail soon? They seem like very nice cars but could it be expensive down the road?

Any car can have issues over a certain mileage/time , just make sure as with any car that it's been well maintained, preferably at a main dealer for hybrids.

The Prius is the better hybrid though.

corcaigh07

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Any car can have issues over a certain mileage/time , just make sure as with any car that it's been well maintained, preferably at a main dealer for hybrids.

The Prius is the better hybrid though.

Could be tricky with a private sale. I imagine the batteries fade away after so long. I like the look of the car though, seems very high spec for a 1.3

The batteries are easy repair but it's difficult to get them repaired in Ireland of course. It's usually a series group of cells that become dodgy.

A prius battery will cost for 1 Kwh 2,500 installed by Toyota, a Nissan Leaf battery for instance costs 5,000 installed for 24 kwh. That's an insane difference so you'd actually be far better off buying a 2nd hand EV and installing a new battery if you ever needed to.

corcaigh07

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The batteries are easy repair but it's difficult to get them repaired in Ireland of course. It's usually a series group of cells that become dodgy.

A prius battery will cost for 1 Kwh 2,500 installed by Toyota, a Nissan Leaf battery for instance costs 5,000 installed for 24 kwh. That's an insane difference so you'd actually be far better off buying a 2nd hand EV and installing a new battery if you ever needed to.

And with the Civic, (it's a 05) will it drive badly without the Battery or will it behave like a regular car?

grogi

n97 mini wrote: »

We have a 2004 HCH and a 2010 Prius. Both of us prefer the HCH, it's just a nicer car, though it's a bit dated.

Civic hybrid looks more traditional, but it miles behind in terms of practicability. The saloon boot is smallish, the seats won't fold etc.

n97 mini wrote: »

Servicing the HCH is the same as any other petrol car as there is essentially just an extra bit in between the engine and gearbox (the IMA motor/generator). The Prius is mechanically very very complex in comparison.

I would have to disagree with it. Prius gearbox (to be precise Power Split Device) is mechanically much simpler than any other gearbox. Other than that it is like a normal car again...

MkIII is a dream for servicing - esentially it needs oil, oil filter, air filter and pollen filter. The breaks will last 150kkm...

In terms on economy - I've heart that Hondas return more-less same mileage as HSD. That's cool...

corcaigh07

corcaigh07 wrote: »

And with the Civic, (it's a 05) will it drive badly without the Battery or will it behave like a regular car?

I don't know exactly with the civic because the Hybrid system is a lot weaker than the Prius it might not have as much of an impact but I do know when the battery runs down the Prius has a lot less power. When I got it first I was fond of the EV button, driving a km or so on battery was amazing, at the time but it's a very wrong thing to let the batter run down like that, best to let it use the battery automatically.

If you can get a 2nd hand Leaf and install a new battery when it runs down, they'll give you the current 24 Kwh battery tech. That's if the range is suitable but the Leaf is miles aead of any hybrid, if you could afford the updated Gen Leaf from 2014 on even better because the battery is better than in the 2011-13.

There's someone of the Irish EV Owners association on Facebook getting a new battery installed for about 5,000 - 5,500 Euro's but the car will be perfect after this , very little can go wrong with an electric motor even after 500,000 Kms.

A well maintained prius can go for 400,000 kms. But there can be issues with batteries with a lot less Kms and then again, maybe not.

A Leaf battery should get cheaper again in the next few years.

grogi

corcaigh07 wrote: »

And with the Civic, (it's a 05) will it drive badly without the Battery or will it behave like a regular car?

It does not have a starter motor, does it?

-- edit

It does have a starter... What an overhead...

Not sure about the civic but the Prius cleverly uses one of the traction motors/generators to fire up the engine.

zilog_jones

The IMA in the Civic Hybrid is used for starting in normal circumstances, but it also has a traditional starter motor so the petrol engine can function without the IMA (not sure if true for all models): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Motor_Assist

Don't know much about the Civic Hybrid, but there are many Priuses still on the road with original batteries over 10 years old, and they use similar Ni-MH technology. Failures as others have said are often individual cells, which may be repairable at reasonable cost.

To be honest, getting 2nd hand parts for the Prius would be far easier because there were far more sold. You can get a reconditioned Prius battery from the U.K for instance and have a mechanic/technician install it . It's actually not that difficult to remove the old Prius battery and install a new one.

While Prius has been known to go for over 400,000 kms , the battery life is not just dependent on mileage, it also depends on time itself, the Prius needs no major maintenance for the Life of the car but it's highly recommended to get the Gearbox oil changed by 160,000 kms and every 100,000 after, oil doesn't last forever and you got the generator and motor soaked in that oil and you don't want contaminates to damage them, it can happen.