Insurance companies declining cover for cars 'over 15 years old' - classics affected?

Diabhalta

emeldc

@diabhalta
The article says the Gards have to follow due process so they were incorrect to seize the car.
So you, an Irish citizen get stopped in your Brit reg car and they take you to court. Do you reckon you'll get off?
What will you do about insurance. Unless I'm very much mistaken no insurance company will insure a foreign reg allbeit for a temporary period until you re register it.
Assuming it has Brit tax and mot, what will you do when they expire.

w124man

Diabhalta wrote: »

I still would like to know which law says it, that's all.

The Statute numbers are on the NCTS site. The legal reference is on the Citizens Information site and its plastered all over the revenue site.


If you seriously think that what you are saying is legal, may I ask you what you are smoking and can I have some

emeldc

w124man wrote: »

The Statute numbers are on the NCTS site. The legal reference is on the Citizens Information site and its plastered all over the revenue site.


If you seriously think that what you are saying is legal, may I ask you what you are smoking and can I have some

Probably just one of the 3200 fags from post #18

CianDon

Right, interesting update. I was on the phone to Liberty earlier as there was an error in my details on the policy that I have with them. Got all that sorted with no hassle, but I said Id ask as a by the way where I'd stand come renewal date in July seeing as my car is 95 and they've set their limit at 96. The lovely lady on the phone stuttered for a bit and said 'Well, that might actually be a problem'. Seems, according to her, that even after a year of incident free driving, my policy may possibly increase to get my yok off the road, or even more so she told me I could get a call in a few months if they chose not to renew!! The fun and games are coming folks!!

Graces7

unkel wrote: »

My MGF (that does a very small mileage) will be 15 years old come renewal in May. I'll give Allianz a call first, thanks Skatedude!

I've had a good experience with First Ireland too, who in the past insured a 22 year old car for me on a classic policy based on our other car, the main family car, being insured by my wife with me as a named driver. Will give them a call too and see where that leaves me...

Allianz just refused me even a quote. '00 car and I am well over 70

Graces7

unkel wrote: »

My MGF (that does a very small mileage) will be 15 years old come renewal in May. I'll give Allianz a call first, thanks Skatedude!

I've had a good experience with First Ireland too, who in the past insured a 22 year old car for me on a classic policy based on our other car, the main family car, being insured by my wife with me as a named driver. Will give them a call too and see where that leaves me...

Allianz just refused me even a quote. '00 car and I am well over 70

spyderski

Diabhalta wrote: »

I still would like to know which law says it, that's all.

Part II of the Finance Act 1992(as amended). You're welcome.

Are you a freeman, too?

unkel

@Diabhalta - please don't go off topic in this thread again

unkel

Graces7 wrote: »

Allianz just refused me even a quote. '00 car and I am well over 70

Is it a classic car (as deemed by Allianz) and did you specifically apply for classic car insurance?

I came across a form the other day from AXA too which is specifically for classic car insurance (for up to 4 classic cars). Will give them a go too in due time

Diabhalta

spyderski wrote: »

Part II of the Finance Act 1992(as amended). You're welcome.

That says nothing about mandatory registration of foreigner's vehicle. It's about a failure of registering a vehicle after it has been imported. If you drive a foreign car in Ireland and you don't intend to import this has nothing to do with you. I read the whole thing, have you? (Chapter IV, parts 131 and 137)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1992/act/9/enacted/en/html

Diabhalta

unkel wrote: »

@Diabhalta - please don't go off topic in this thread again

I won't. It just that everything seems to be so clear to eveyone but nobody is actually able to point at the paragraph and say: here it is.

End of Offtopic.

swarlb

Diabhalta wrote: »

I won't. It just that everything seems to be so clear to eveyone but nobody is actually able to point at the paragraph and say: here it is.

End of Offtopic.

I think the crux of the matter is just because it may say you cannot do something, does not mean you can do something else. If this is the case it should be simple enough to bring in car from the UK and drive it indefinitely. If you are stopped for any reason, all you need to say is that you are not importing it, and it's simply 'visiting'.... I don't think I'll risk it.

jamesbondings

emeldc wrote: »

Are you talking about residents or non residents. Insurance companies here won't cover a foreign reg, you also won't be able to tax it and as far as I know you can't nct it either. Read the small print on your own insurance policy. You'll find if you have a car here and are travelling abroad on holidays, your insurance will cover you for 30 days or so but they won't cover you for a full year. I've no reason to believe the reverse situation would be any different.

Under European law (I'll admit iI don't know which one) once you have insurance the underwriter has to cover you regardless of their bullpoop "30 days" lark.....

Skatedude

Graces7 wrote: »

Allianz just refused me even a quote. '00 car and I am well over 70

I was with allianz , but now with aig and still 400 a year, but i did use first ireland brokers to get it, have you tried them?

damon5

Skatedude wrote: »

I was with allianz , but now with aig and still 400 a year, but i did use first ireland brokers to get it, have you tried them?

Skatedude would you mind saying what cover,type of insurance you got as I,m going to have to renew my 99d in march,cheers...

damon5

Just came across this bit of info regarding older cars and insurance issues.
http://www.sundayworld.com/news/you-can-t-be-left-without-insurance-even-if-your-car-is-15-years-old

w124man

I had a discussion about this subject with a friend of mine who is in the insurance industry. He was less diplomatic than the newspaper article about the reasons for this insurance issue. Basically the issue is that 15 year old cars or cars of this age group can be bought for peanuts and a certain section of our community are buying these cheap cars, then driving into each other and claiming on the insurance for injury and whiplash. The insurance companies have no choice but to pay up. Its an easy fiddle I'm afraid so to stop this, young drivers, drivers living in less desirable areas, drivers with 'no fixed abode', drivers with claims records and drivers with no history with the company are being quoted bonkers premiums. If you have a car 15 years or more and you have been with the company for at least 5 years with that car then you should be all right. However, if you have 'shopped around' for cover then you are going to be reamed!


Its a bummer but we all know the type of person who does this fraud.

Lellostag

w124man wrote: »

I had a discussion about this subject with a friend of mine who is in the insurance industry. He was less diplomatic than the newspaper article about the reasons for this insurance issue. Basically the issue is that 15 year old cars or cars of this age group can be bought for peanuts and a certain section of our community are buying these cheap cars, then driving into each other and claiming on the insurance for injury and whiplash. The insurance companies have no choice but to pay up. Its an easy fiddle I'm afraid so to stop this, young drivers, drivers living in less desirable areas, drivers with 'no fixed abode', drivers with claims records and drivers with no history with the company are being quoted bonkers premiums. If you have a car 15 years or more and you have been with the company for at least 5 years with that car then you should be all right. However, if you have 'shopped around' for cover then you are going to be reamed!


Its a bummer but we all know the type of person who does this fraud.

So in other words it always comes back to the fact that insurance companies are unable (unwilling?) to make an assessment based on personal history; if your car is older than 15 years then all of a sudden you are considered a potential fraudster regardless of your otherwise spotless driving history... :mad:

I suppose if the insurance companies wouldn't have been so poor at rewarding current customers there would have been a lot fewer reasons for most people to shop around each year... :rolleyes:

w124man

Lellostag wrote: »

So in other words it always comes back to the fact that insurance companies are unable (unwilling?) to make an assessment based on personal history; if your car is older than 15 years then all of a sudden you are considered a potential fraudster regardless of your otherwise spotless driving history... :mad:

I suppose if the insurance companies wouldn't have been so poor at rewarding current customers there would have been a lot fewer reasons for most people to shop around each year... :rolleyes:

Well I don't know about that but I do know that insurance companies use statistical analysis to set premiums and for the last while the statistics indicate that 15 year old cars are having an unusually high claim rate.

tom petty

w124man wrote: »

I had a discussion about this subject with a friend of mine who is in the insurance industry. He was less diplomatic than the newspaper article about the reasons for this insurance issue. Basically the issue is that 15 year old cars or cars of this age group can be bought for peanuts and a certain section of our community are buying these cheap cars, then driving into each other and claiming on the insurance for injury and whiplash. The insurance companies have no choice but to pay up. Its an easy fiddle I'm afraid so to stop this, young drivers, drivers living in less desirable areas, drivers with 'no fixed abode', drivers with claims records and drivers with no history with the company are being quoted bonkers premiums. If you have a car 15 years or more and you have been with the company for at least 5 years with that car then you should be all right. However, if you have 'shopped around' for cover then you are going to be reamed!


Its a bummer but we all know the type of person who does this fraud.

Whilst I appreciate that you are reiterating what your friend told you I repudiate that as a credible reason .
I'm just about to embark on securing insurance for my 15 year old car that I have owned for 14 of those years .I declared it off road in 2014 as I was just not using it enough to warrant the cost of insurance and (high ) road tax so did it legally and tucked it away in a dehumified bubble in my garage .
I could buy a newer car but why should I ? The car in question is in pristine condition with impeccable service AND ownership history & has a very good NCAP figure . It has a fuel injection system that was carried over into vehicles that are a lot less than 15 years old so cannot be called a pollution hazard ( it's not a VW ............)
Now having owned the car for so long I cannot be catagorised as a " buy it cheap today and smash it into another car for a big payout , tomorrow " owner .
I own a classic car too and cannot understand , or have explained to me , why several insurers in that field were falling over themselves to secure my business for a 35 year old car but are treating me like an HIV leper for having the temerity to wish to own and drive a 15 year old car . The concept of being a respectful ,law abiding good guy whilst driving my classic and then morphing into a scam seeking ,shady low life when I transfer to my 15 year old car is quite simply , fanciful.
Couple that with me having a commercial vehicle with !0+ years NCB clearly displays the Insurance companies just deciding with a wave of the hand to ignore anything I can do to prove and display that I am a good risk and condemn me along with all these scam artists that they so willingly tell us are everywhere ........
It's calculated that there are 250,000 cars in the 15 + years old category in little 'ol Ireland . What actual % of them have been used for fraudulent purposes annually ?
Oh and yes you're right it is a bummer ,but the insurance companies know the type of person who conducts this fraud better than we do but choose to ignore it .
Big data ? .... Lies , damn lies and statistics ...........

w124man

I would think that as you have owned the car for 14 of its 15+ years, you wont/shouldn't have an issue. I was always led to believe that it was the driver that was insured along with other considerations. Maybe back in the day it was just the driver that was considered but this seems not to be the case these days. I'll give you an example of how it was explained to me the other night ....


If you have 20 cars and 10 of them are, say, VW Passats and the remaining ten spread out between five other manufactures the chances are that more Passats will crash into each other than any other make therefore, statistically, if you drive a Passat you are more likely to have a claim. Boom. There you have it. That's how they do it.


So if you transfer this into today speak, if you consider that 15 + year old cars account for 250,000 of the national fleet, that equates to 10% and if 25 % of the claims come from the 10% it becomes a no brainer for the insurance companies. Unfortunately, you and I get caught up in it and its not our fault! But like I said before, we all know where to look

tom petty

w124man wrote: »

I would think that as you have owned the car for 14 of its 15+ years, you wont/shouldn't have an issue. I was always led to believe that it was the driver that was insured along with other considerations. Maybe back in the day it was just the driver that was considered but this seems not to be the case these days. I'll give you an example of how it was explained to me the other night ....


If you have 20 cars and 10 of them are, say, VW Passats and the remaining ten spread out between five other manufactures the chances are that more Passats will crash into each other than any other make therefore, statistically, if you drive a Passat you are more likely to have a claim. Boom. There you have it. That's how they do it.


So if you transfer this into today speak, if you consider that 15 + year old cars account for 250,000 of the national fleet, that equates to 10% and if 25 % of the claims come from the 10% it becomes a no brainer for the insurance companies. Unfortunately, you and I get caught up in it and its not our fault! But like I said before, we all know where to look

You see this is where I have difficulty understanding what's being said .
I fully understand the mathematical aspects of ratios and proportions but with respect ,are you or your Insurance friend , actually stating that 25% of claims from the 1.9 million motor cars on Irish roads come from 15 + year old cars or is that just another hypothetical figure for the purposes of generalised enlightenment ?
If it's the latter then we're not debating the subject ,we're just chewing the cud .........
" Facts are stubborn things but statistics are pliable ....."

swarlb

tom petty wrote: »

You see this is where I have difficulty understanding what's being said .
I fully understand the mathematical aspects of ratios and proportions but with respect ,are you or your Insurance friend , actually stating that 25% of claims from the 1.9 million motor cars on Irish roads come from 15 + year old cars or is that just another hypothetical figure for the purposes of generalised enlightenment ?
If it's the latter then we're not debating the subject ,we're just chewing the cud .........
" Facts are stubborn things but statistics are pliable ....."

I imagine it's a lot simpler than everyone is making out. They (insurance) companies have simply decided on a 'cut off' date, nothing more nothing less. It's probably not based on anything other than they simply don't want to insure cars falling into that category. And that's entirely up to them if they do. The problem is, is that there is a conflict going on here. We have an annual test for cars of that year, which was set up by the Govt of the day. And if a car passes that test, regardless of the year (providing it's eligible for the test) it is deemed to be safe for use on the public roads.
And this, as far as I see is the issue. If an insurance company is willing to insure a particular model of car from, lets say 2007, but is unwilling to insure the exact same model from 2001, then the problem I believe lies with legislation. They (the Govt) should either ban cars over a certain age from the NCT, and therefore from use, or ensure that ANY car that passes the state test, should be passed for insurance.
If this is not the case, then it could be just as easy for insurance companies to refuse to insure a host of things, houses, people even, when they do not pass certain criteria.
The fact that certain insurance companies are quite happy to insure 'classics' that are exempt from any kind of safety test, makes a mockery of their whole argument on 'cars over 15 years being a higher risk'.
If they even attempt to use the argument that it's difficult to source the correct parts to maintain these vehicles up to a particular standard, the whole 'classic' insurance argument should be used against them. It's been a long time since Henry Ford supplied parts off the shelf for his model T.

w124man

I think a point has been missed here. Its the fact that cars of this age can be bought for peanuts and are being used to commit fraud against the insurance companies. That's it in a nutshell, its got nothing to do with the NCT or classic cars or emissions or rust


I'm out of this thread now.

Zoo4m8

According to an article in the IT yesterday it hasn't anything to do with that either, apparently the insurance companies investments have gone south in recent times, low interest rates etc, and they need to save money so guess where they start....
We are told what a great success the NCT has been in its contribution to road safety, likewise the various schemes to reduce road deaths and injuries..
Maybe it's time for a government insurance effort aimed at those less able to afford an up to date car and the ridiculous premiums being quoted. They are doing a lot of hand wringing about increasing premiums but I suppose that's all it will amount to..

hi5

What really happened is that last August the Central Bank with the blessing of the government told insurance companies to raise reserves, this was like handing a bottle of whiskey to an alcoholic.
The insurance companies were beside themselves with delight, and we have since seen the consequences.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/transport-minister-rules-out-intervention-as-car-insurance-costs-soar-691756.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/insurers-must-raise-reserves-to-cover-car-crash-costs-central-bank-1.2355110

Skatedude

hi5 wrote: »

What really happened is that last August the Central Bank with the blessing of the government told insurance companies to raise reserves, this was like handing a bottle of whiskey to an alcoholic.
The insurance companies were beside themselves with delight, and we have since seen the consequences.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/transport-minister-rules-out-intervention-as-car-insurance-costs-soar-691756.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/insurers-must-raise-reserves-to-cover-car-crash-costs-central-bank-1.2355110

It really is a joke, the courts keep paying out stupidly high claims in ireland and instead of sorting out the problems with the courts, they tell the insurance companies to get their customers to pay for it instead?

tom petty

hi5 wrote: »

What really happened is that last August the Central Bank with the blessing of the government told insurance companies to raise reserves, this was like handing a bottle of whiskey to an alcoholic.
The insurance companies were beside themselves with delight, and we have since seen the consequences.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/transport-minister-rules-out-intervention-as-car-insurance-costs-soar-691756.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/insurers-must-raise-reserves-to-cover-car-crash-costs-central-bank-1.2355110

I initially thought that the first report above was condensed for newspaper lineage reasons but after checking that's basically what he said .
On the eve of a general election his total dismissive disregard for the effect that this thorny issue has on the electorate is astonishing.
If I was genuinely wooing the electorate I'd (at least be seen to ) be a little more sympathetic and considerate of the plight of every household in Ireland that owns a motor vehicle.
His, and the sitting governments , crassness is breathtaking ........
Going by the premium hike on my van I expect that this household will have circa € 800 less disposable income this year once the other apocryphal renewals arrive .
That's not € 800 less being banked or saved it's €800 less being spent in the local and wider community . Mirror this throughout the country and it can be seen to be a very significant sum that is being vacuumed up and into the coffers of the Insurance Companies and worse the home countries of the underwriters .
Now this may not ruin this wee countries stratospheric recovery that I'm told we are enjoying but it is an accountable loss and if nothing more it should warrant some interest and critique from our political animals ..
A blind man running for a bus can see that there is something broken here and that the only group suffering in the food chain is the captive and unrepresented motorist .
From a political perspective that's incredibly convenient.
To have the Roads Minister imply that the problem is down to unsafe roads shows a detachment from reality beyond comprehension but is more likely indicative of a "CGAF about it " attitude..

Skatedude

damon5 wrote: »

Skatedude would you mind saying what cover,type of insurance you got as I,m going to have to renew my 99d in march,cheers...

AIG claasic policy with full comp, breakdown and i think windscreen cover, but I'd have to check my paperwork for excess etc