Eircode discussion

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

They could go with 'Enter Address/loc8/Eircode' - that would work.

My Garmin asks for 'Address/postcode' but it was bought in Currys - UK.

You'd have to imagine eircode wouldn't like that and would claim "confusion for customers" but yes it's a possibility.

ukoda

ukoda wrote: »

You'd have to imagine eircode wouldn't like that and would claim "confusion for customers" but yes it's a possibility.

And on the flip side, you'd imagine loc8 would fight tooth and nail to keep eircode off the Garmin devices as its no secret they hate it.

PDVerse

Eircode license their data to mapping providers. In terms of Sat-Navs TomTom use their own mapping data which is why they have licensed directly with Eircode. Others, including Garmin, license their data from Here (formerly Navteq). When Here have signed an agreement with Eircode the other Sat-Nav providers will negotiate with them if they want Eircode on their devices.

ukoda

PDVerse wrote: »

Eircode license their data to mapping providers. In terms of Sat-Navs TomTom use their own mapping data which is why they have licensed directly with Eircode. Others, including Garmin, license their data from Here (formerly Navteq). When Here have signed an agreement with Eircode the other Sat-Nav providers will negotiate with them if they want Eircode on their devices.

Do you have insight as to why a contract with HERE hasn't been signed yet, seeing as the other major players have all signed months ago? (So we've been told anyway)

ukoda

Another question for you, you may not want to answer this and that's fair enough

The Autoaddress app, are they absorbing the cost of the look ups from the end user and how sustainable is that if adoption scales up?

PDVerse

Autoaddress pays the license fee for all Eircode usage within the app. The maximum Eircode fee for any organisation (excluding mapping providers) is 30k per annum.

VARs aren't involved in any negotiations between Eircode and mapping providers.

ukoda

PDVerse wrote: »

Autoaddress pays the license fee for all Eircode usage within the app. The maximum Eircode fee for any organisation (excluding mapping providers) is 30k per annum.

VARs aren't involved in any negotiations between Eircode and mapping providers.

Ah! So no matter how popular the app gets the cost to a VAR is only ever going to be a maximum of 30k per annum, I get it now. So the payback on that spend is the exposure/advertising leading to new business generation. 30k per year is small potatoes in terms of an advertising spend. Well played.

TheChizler

Anger misdirected at Eircode today, surely Conradh na Gaeilge should be aware that the translations came from GeoDirectory and the issue is with them?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0627/798393-an-coimisneir-teanga-report/

sondagefaux

TheChizler wrote: »

Anger misdirected at Eircode today, surely Conradh na Gaeilge should be aware that the translations came from GeoDirectory and the issue is with them?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0627/798393-an-coimisneir-teanga-report/

Over 70 complaints out of a couple of million addresses - is that all?

GJG

TheChizler wrote: »

Anger misdirected at Eircode today, surely Conradh na Gaeilge should be aware that the translations came from GeoDirectory and the issue is with them?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0627/798393-an-coimisneir-teanga-report/

In fairness, Conradh na Gaeilge have been perfectly clear that they support Eircode and are perfectly aware that the problems are with Geodirectory, not Eircode. The database has empty fields on the Irish-language version of some addresses. Attributing this problem to Eircode is as silly as the claim that Eircode 'has moved people to other counties'. Sloppy reporting.

plodder

GJG wrote: »

In fairness, Conradh na Gaeilge have been perfectly clear that they support Eircode and are perfectly aware that the problems are with Geodirectory, not Eircode. The database has empty fields on the Irish-language version of some addresses. Attributing this problem to Eircode is as silly as the claim that Eircode 'has moved people to other counties'. Sloppy reporting.

While it's true that Eircode can't do anything about the problem directly, this is a consequence of the Eircode design putting a direct link between addresses and Eircodes. It gives a status to postal addresses that did not exist previously, and presumably also to the Irish language version of those addresses.

To illustrate the point, I've heard of cases that have nothing to do with postal delivery, where people have gotten in to arguments with other service providers about their address. If the service provider is using an Eircode product, they may be reluctant to accept any form of address other the official one in Eircode.

Not saying there is anything much that can be done about it, but blaming it on Geodirectory is beside the point. It's probably the case, that over time, Eircode addresses will become the defacto official address, whether people like it or not.

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

Not saying there is anything much that can be done about it, but blaming it on Geodirectory is beside the point. It's probably the case, that over time, Eircode addresses will become the defacto official address, whether people like it or not.

Which is why they should have solved the non-unique addresses first or as part of Eircode. Also, the granularity of the routing part of the code is too large. They should have gone to the size of the SACs.

Bad design. Bad implementation.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Which is why they should have solved the non-unique addresses first or as part of Eircode. Also, the granularity of the routing part of the code is too large. They should have gone to the size of the SACs.

Bad design. Bad implementation.

how exactly would they solve it? You'd have the same issue:

Resident: my address is ABC
An Post: no it's XYZ as that's your postal town.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

how exactly would they solve it? You'd have the same issue:

Resident: my address is ABC
An Post: no it's XYZ as that's your postal town.

Solving the non-unique address should have started a long time ago - at about the same time as they started planning the postcode.

First define the address format.
Name,
no. and Street name,
Townland,
Barony,
County.

Then assign small area code (SAC) to each area. The Central Statistics Office has these, and the OS also has these.

That is half the job done.

Where streets have no name, then planning office in the local council can invite suggestions or just give them numbers. House numbers are assigned on distance starting at one end.

It has to be done sometime and starting now gets it nearer to finishing.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Solving the non-unique address should have started a long time ago - at about the same time as they started planning the postcode.

First define the address format.
Name,
no. and Street name,
Townland,
Barony,
County.

Then assign small area code (SAC) to each area. The Central Statistics Office has these, and the OS also has these.

That is half the job done.

Where streets have no name, then planning office in the local council can invite suggestions or just give them numbers. House numbers are assigned on distance starting at one end.

It has to be done sometime and starting now gets it nearer to finishing.

You still haven't solved the problem of "I don't accept that address"

FishOnABike

Eircodes should never have been designed to include the letters j,k,q,v,w,x,y,z - they are not in the Irish alphabet. How do you write (or pronounce) an Irish address with characters that are not part of languages alphabet?

An entirely numeric code (as used in a number of other countries) would have been language agnostic.

ukoda

FishOnABike wrote: »

Eircodes should never have been designed to include the letters j,k,q,v,w,x,y,z - they are not in the Irish alphabet. How do you write (or pronounce) an Irish address with characters that are not part of languages alphabet?

An entirely numeric code (as used in a number of other countries) would have been language agnostic.

No ones actually objecting to the code in this instance. It's the address attached to the code that people complained about

GJG

plodder wrote: »

GJG wrote: »

In fairness, Conradh na Gaeilge have been perfectly clear that they support Eircode and are perfectly aware that the problems are with Geodirectory, not Eircode. The database has empty fields on the Irish-language version of some addresses. Attributing this problem to Eircode is as silly as the claim that Eircode 'has moved people to other counties'. Sloppy reporting.

While it's true that Eircode can't do anything about the problem directly, this is a consequence of the Eircode design putting a direct link between addresses and Eircodes. It gives a status to postal addresses that did not exist previously, and presumably also to the Irish language version of those addresses.

Not saying there is anything much that can be done about it, but blaming it on Geodirectory is beside the point. It's probably the case, that over time, Eircode addresses will become the defacto official address, whether people like it or not.

No, it's a consequence of inaccuracies in GeoDirectory database. Blaming Geodirectory is exactly the point. Blaming Eircode for something that they have no control over is just silly.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Which is why they should have solved the non-unique addresses first or as part of Eircode.

Why?

As has been explained, the intense attachment to conflicting townland and city district names would make that a decades-long project vulnerable to intense lobbying and messy compromises.

How, other than an anti-everything throwing-your-toys-out-of-the-pram tantrum can you justify demanding that nobody is allowed to have a postcode until your pet project is completed? What makes your demand so special? There is nothing about Eircode that makes it more or less feasible.

FishOnABike

ukoda wrote: »

No ones actually objecting to the code in this instance. It's the address attached to the code that people complained about

I am. An Irish address should be written in Irish. Not some mish-mash mongrel. Using a numeric code would have been language agnostic. As one poster pointed out issues with missing information in the geodirectory affecting a number of Irish language addresses I am pointing out another oversight regarding Irish language addresses.

I am aware that a properly functioning and properly used eircode should make the postal town / postal county issue redundant as post should be sorted and routed by eircode with different delivery services possibly routing via different towns or counties depending on their own logistics. All addresses could then reflect where a place actually is rather than how one or other delivery service gets something to them.

GJG

FishOnABike wrote: »

ukoda wrote: »

No ones actually objecting to the code in this instance. It's the address attached to the code that people complained about

I am. An Irish address should be written in Irish. Not some mish-mash mongrel. Using a numeric code would have been language agnostic. As one poster pointed out issues with missing information in the geodirectory affecting a number of Irish language addresses I am pointing out another oversight regarding Irish language addresses.

I am aware that a properly functioning and properly used eircode should make the postal town / postal county issue redundant as post should be sorted and routed by eircode with different delivery services possibly routing via different towns or counties depending on their own logistics. All addresses could then reflect where a place actually is rather than how one or other delivery service gets something to them.

Eircode is language-independent. Although they have been misreported in the press, Conradh na Gaeilge are very happy with Eircode. I know - I asked them.

Their problem is that the Geodirectory has about 50k errors in a database of 2.1m. At well below three percent, that might not seem drastic, but they seem to be concentrated in the Irish language addresses, which is what concerns CnaG, reasonably enough. CnaG themselves have made it perfectly clear to anyone willing to listen that they support Eircode, but that doesn't seem to influence people who desperately want everything from Geodirectory errors to flooding on the Shannon to be the fault of Eircode.

ukoda

GJG wrote: »

Eircode is language-independent. Although they have been misreported in the press, Conradh na Gaeilge are very happy with Eircode. I know - I asked them.

Their problem is that the Geodirectory has about 50k errors in a database of 2.1m. At well below three percent, that might not seem drastic, but they seem to be concentrated in the Irish language addresses, which is what concerns CnaG, reasonably enough. CnaG themselves have made it perfectly clear to anyone willing to listen that they support Eircode, but that doesn't seem to influence people who desperately want everything from Geodirectory errors to flooding on the Shannon to be the fault of Eircode.

They blamed it on Eircode in interviews. Do they feel they'll get more attention if they do that? It is fashionable to bash eircode at the moment

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

They blamed it on Eircode in interviews. Do they feel they'll get more attention if they do that? It is fashionable to bash eircode at the moment

I suppose because much of the bashing is justified, then it's easy to jump on the bandwagon. And maybe instead of just passing the buck, a better way forward might be for Eircode to engage with CnaG to identify the errors and pass them on to its suppliers at An Post Geodirectory.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

You still haven't solved the problem of "I don't accept that address"

That is exactly what is being complained about by the Gaelgors.

It should not be An Post that determines the official address, particularly if it points to a different county.

PDVerse

@FishOnABike
On the question of using alphabet letters not traditionally used in the Irish alphabet (JKQVWXY & Z), these letters have actually become in general use in Irish now (see breis.focloir.ie/en/fgb/) and the rationale of their use is solely as data, and not relating to existing placenames.

FishOnABike

PDVerse wrote: »

@FishOnABike
On the question of using alphabet letters not traditionally used in the Irish alphabet (JKQVWXY & Z), these letters have actually become in general use in Irish now (see breis.focloir.ie/en/fgb/) and the rationale of their use is solely as data, and not relating to existing placenames.

Their use is usually restricted to loanwords or mathematical / scientific terms adopted from a foreign language. They are not used in native Irish words. I know language changes over time but the use of relatively few gaelicised foreign words does not make the letters part of the Irish alphabet any more than the myriad of loanwords with accented letters in the English language means English includes umlauts, accute, grave and all the other accents, etc.

In my view the use of jkqvwxyz in eircodes is not language neutral. Using a numeric code would have been.

I realise CnaG's issue is with Irish address / placename errors in the geodirectory and not the eircode itself. The use of non Irish letters by eircode in a country whose first language (in theory if not in practice) is Irish and in which a small but significant minority speak Irish in their daily life, could be seen as an oversight in the eircode design.

a65b2cd

FishOnABike wrote: »

language neutral. Using a numeric code would have been.

I would have preferred the routing keys to be based on Irish placenames and county based routing keys rather than the very inconsistently sized current ones. Opportunities were lost by following the An Post delivery areas.

PDVerse

@FishOnABike
I appreciate you have a different opinion. The post I provided earlier was the advice provided to Eircode by Foras na Gaelige, perhaps I should have made that clearer.

FishOnABike

PDVerse wrote: »

@FishOnABike
I appreciate you have a different opinion. The post I provided earlier was the advice provided to Eircode by Foras na Gaelige, perhaps I should have made that clearer.

Sure if everyone thought exactly the same the world would be a very boring place.;)

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

First define the address format.
Name,
no. and Street name,
Townland,
Barony,
County.

There are three different townlands called "Coolcran" in the barony of Tirawley in County Mayo.

I really wish people would stop pretending that complex problems have simple answers.

sondagefaux

FishOnABike wrote: »

PDVerse wrote: »

@FishOnABike
On the question of using alphabet letters not traditionally used in the Irish alphabet (JKQVWXY & Z), these letters have actually become in general use in Irish now (see breis.focloir.ie/en/fgb/) and the rationale of their use is solely as data, and not relating to existing placenames.

Their use is usually restricted to loanwords or mathematical / scientific terms adopted from a foreign language. They are not used in native Irish words. I know language changes over time but the use of relatively few gaelicised foreign words does not make the letters part of the Irish alphabet any more than the myriad of loanwords with accented letters in the English language means English includes umlauts, accute, grave and all the other accents, etc.

In my view the use of jkqvwxyz in eircodes is not language neutral. Using a numeric code would have been.

I realise CnaG's issue is with Irish address / placename errors in the geodirectory and not the eircode itself. The use of non Irish letters by eircode in a country whose first language (in theory if not in practice) is Irish and in which a small but significant minority speak Irish in their daily life, could be seen as an oversight in the eircode design.

Is an Eircode a native Irish word?