Eircode discussion

gctest50

? :P


http://ws.postcoder.com/pcw/PCW45-12345-12345-1234X/rgeo/ie/53.332067/-6.255492?distance=500&format=csv

SPDUB

Sam Russell wrote: »

Eircode is not on any Satnav that I know of so it cannot give false results.

Well that's one reason why such a claim should have been questioned as well as the claim it would always give a false result when implemented

However, it was mentioned that construction sites do not have Eircodes and cannot get them. - True.

Posties are obliged to tell Geodirectory of new development when asked about it . So it seems a change in reporting procedures to Geodirectory and then to Eircode could help here .

Eircode was not going to be used by An Post - at least outside their automated sorting offices. - True.

I'm not sure where this claim came from but in any case it isn't strictly true .

While the postie will normally read the address in the 11 anywhere road format if the only part of an address legible is the Eircode then there is a procedure in place for that code to be turned into a street address in every delivery office

Sam Russell

Apparently, the claim that An Post were not going to use Eircode was got from an FOI request. Check out the interview of SO'R Today I posted above. It is not my claim but by the interviewee.

It has been said many times on various Eircode threads over a long time - so it must be true.

BoatMad

An Post said Eircodes have been fully integrated into its automated sorting systems and it "fully supported and continues to support the introduction of the new Eircode system".

source http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0714/802305-eircode/

so lets bury that for once and all

Heres AnPost recommendation for a correct address

http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

Note the recommendation to include the Eircode

(and the sorting county as opposed to the Geographic county that often confuses people )

plodder

PDVerse wrote: »

@plodder I think disagreement is the wrong word. There are those who were involved in the process and know the facts, and those outside the process who make claims.

Indeed, there are many people who should have been involved in the process but weren't.

You may be unaware of how Small Areas are defined. They use townland boundaries in rural areas, which use "official" boundaries. In exactly the same manner as outlined in the Wilton/Togher debate they can have many different interpretations locally. I would defy anyone to tell my mother-in-law that she has been using the wrong townland in her address for the last 75 years.

In this country we are used to multiple different area structures. Official townland boundaries are one thing. An Post's address structure is another. Electoral divisions are one more. School districts (for schools that enforce this) are completely different again. So, if postcodes were to be based on one of those (townland boundaries in rural areas) then I don't think that would be a problem, especially as we know that existing addresses with townlands etc are fully preserved.

The funding model chosen by Government had no impact on the design. If we knew that the data would be released as open data the design would be unchanged.
We considered all user groups in the design, but the overriding concern was deliver a design that provided maximum benefit to the public, especially those in non-unique addresses in rural Ireland. Nobody asks a heart transplant surgeon to perform a survey of patients to determine which anti-rejection drug to recommend. Design by committee does not have a good track record.

How do we know you considered all user groups? Where are the documents to show that? I think a good job was done for non-unique addresses, but there are a number of other uses which you didn't consider, such as casual use by the public at large, small businesses that are not well connected to IT systems, voluntary and non-comercial organisations.

By the way, on the idea for the free dataset with limited information, did you not have a meeting with the FTAI where you suggested something very similar?

GJG

Plodder, you seem to have a sense of grievance here but the glaring omission in all your criticisms is any actual real-life flaw. I'm aware that criticisms have been voiced, but, as far as I can see, all of these are either based on personal aesthetics, or monomania about a particular aspect that ignores how the demand would prejudice other uses.

A design has been chosen. It is a spectacular improvement on the previous situation. Don't you think you should just build a bridge and get over it unless you can point out a viable change within Eircode's remit that can a) improve its performance in some way b) without prejudicing other aspects of its use?

Sam Russell

GJG wrote: »

A design has been chosen. It is a spectacular improvement on the previous situation. Don't you think you should just build a bridge and get over it unless you can point out a viable change within Eircode's remit that can a) improve its performance in some way b) without prejudicing other aspects of its use?

The design has a spectacular flaw. The routing codes are too big and some are not contiguous. Some cover huge areas and others huge populations while for others, the reverse of both exists. This suggests some strange bias in the design.

A simple change would be to reduce the size of these by increasing their number from 139 to about 2,000. This could be done over time and region by region. It would not affect An Post, and could be done to align the routing codes with county boundaries - giving much joy to traditionalist everywhere.

I think such a change meets your requirements. It might also incorporate the nice element from the design - making the codes more easily memorable.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

giving much joy to traditionalist everywhere.

I don't think it's a postcodes job to appease traditionalists.

If we wanted a traditional postcode, we should have done it 50 years ago.

I think the point is, we've moved beyond the need for traditional postcodes but people can't get there head around it.

This postcode works really well with modern technology, which is what our lives revolve around now and in the future.

GJG

Sam Russell wrote: »

GJG wrote: »

A design has been chosen. It is a spectacular improvement on the previous situation. Don't you think you should just build a bridge and get over it unless you can point out a viable change within Eircode's remit that can a) improve its performance in some way b) without prejudicing other aspects of its use?

The design has a spectacular flaw. The routing codes are too big and some are not contiguous. Some cover huge areas and others huge populations while for others, the reverse of both exists. This suggests some strange bias in the design.

A simple change would be to reduce the size of these by increasing their number from 139 to about 2,000. This could be done over time and region by region. It would not affect An Post, and could be done to align the routing codes with county boundaries - giving much joy to traditionalist everywhere.

I think such a change meets your requirements. It might also incorporate the nice element from the design - making the codes more easily memorable.

That really isn't a design flaw. I realise that it offends against your sense of aesthetics and order (mine too), but a design flaw is something that makes a function within the remit of Eircode impossible or unreasonably difficult.

UK postcodes cover a maximum of 26 dwellings. German ones have tens of thousands. Each allows some ad-hoc uses, where the granularity roughly matches the requirement, though of course UK postcodes are far too small for some uses and German ones are far too big for others.

Eircodes really have no areas, they have 2.2m precise location points. A simple function can organise them into areas with any required level of granularity. I realise that some people who are uneasy or unfamiliar with IT may not get that, but that's hardly a reason to change the design.

You are suggesting essentially - a year in - changing everyone, or almost everyone's Eircode. If you genuinely think that would aid memorability, then I think it's best to let the readers decide if that is plausible.

What I'm asking for is a change you or Poldder can suggest - any change - that would improve some use of Eircode without prejudicing some other use. Anyone who can't accept that as the threshold is, in my view, an obsessive monomaniac. Anyone who acknowledges that threshold can't be met can only rationally accept Eircodes.

FishOnABike

BoatMad wrote: »

source http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0714/802305-eircode/

so lets bury that for once and all

Heres AnPost recommendation for a correct address

http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

Note the recommendation to include the Eircode

(and the sorting county as opposed to the Geographic county that often confuses people )

Surely that should have been one of the benefits of introducing a postcode. If I order something online how do I know if it will be delivered by An Post who want a 'sorting county' or by a courier who sorts their deliveries differently. A proper post code, properly used should have enabled doing away with 'sort county' nonsense and allowed items to be addressed by their intended destination rather than how one company currently organises their deliveries.

The linking of a post code, at a high level, to the logistics of one particular player in the market at a point in time and, at a more granular level, to completely random rubbish has made a pigs ear out of what could have been a silk purse.

plodder

It's like Groundhog day here. Every few weeks or after a few pages of the thread has past by, people retreat to their familiar old positions.

Flaws?
What flaws?
Eircode is unique. It's cool. It's modern. So, what if you need a computer (and money) to decode it? We all use computers now? Get with the program. Put on the green jersey and stop moaning and cribbing

There are still some serious points though. As PDverse said above 'design by committee' has a bad rep.There's an impression out there that the previous committees faffed around for years producing reports and not much else. I wasn't involved, but I thought the reports were quite good. What I suspect happened is it got to a stage where hard political decisions had to be made eg. take on An Post or not take them on. And that's where it stalled. So, rather than make those hard decisions, they just decided to constrain the system to :-
- fit in with An Post's wacky system, even though An Post never needed a postcode
- make it opaque and unstructured rather than run the risk of postcode snobbery

I do have sympathy for the designers who were put in a difficult position it seems, but that doesn't mean the issues shouldn't be highlighted and even now some changes made. @GCJ. You seemed to be in favour of the free dataset idea. What has changed? If it was scotched by An Post, why not just say so?

Using a small team to design in secret (instead of a more open process) will certainly get you quicker results, but it might not be what most people would want.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

It's like Groundhog day here. Every few weeks or after a few pages of the thread has past by, people retreat to their familiar old positions.

Flaws?
What flaws?
Eircode is unique. It's cool. It's modern. So, what if you need a computer (and money) to decode it? We all use computers now? Get with the program. Put on the green jersey and stop moaning and cribbing

There are still some serious points though. As PDverse said above 'design by committee' has a bad rep.There's an impression out there that the previous committees faffed around for years producing reports and not much else. I wasn't involved, but I thought the reports were quite good. What I suspect happened is it got to a stage where hard political decisions had to be made eg. take on An Post or not take them on. And that's where it stalled. So, rather than make those hard decisions, they just decided to constrain the system to :-
- fit in with An Post's wacky system, even though An Post never needed a postcode
- make it opaque and unstructured rather than run the risk of postcode snobbery

I do have sympathy for the designers who were put in a difficult position it seems, but that doesn't mean the issues shouldn't be highlighted and even now some changes made. @GCJ. You seemed to be in favour of the free dataset idea. What has changed? If it was scotched by An Post, why not just say so?

Using a small team to design in secret (instead of a more open process) will certainly get you quicker results, but it might not be what most people would want.

Now that we have the Autoaddress app, no one needs money to use eircode as much as they want.

And yes it is like Groundhog Day here. But let me remind you, you were the one who wanted a thread to discuss eircode over and over again.

I wanted the implementation thread to discuss new uses and progress. If you don't want to keep having the same old argument over and over again. Then please feel free to stop.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Now that we have the Autoaddress app, no one needs money to use eircode as much as they want.

Only for navigation. Have you forgotten about all the other use cases, which the app isn't useful for, like the people looking for a new school? that we discussed a few weeks ago?

See what I mean..

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Only for navigation. Have you forgotten about all the other use cases, which the app isn't useful for, like the people looking for a new school? that we discussed a few weeks ago?

See what I mean..

Would you like to have that discussion again?

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Would you like to have that discussion again?

No need. Here is what you said about it. They should just pay.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99979991&postcount=1263

How many parents do you think there would be?

500? Because for £20* between the 500 of them they can get everything (full ECAD database) you say they should have access to above from www.eircodesoftware.ie (no licence required)

*I'm using GBP currency in this example as that company happens to quote their prices in sterling on their website, the Irish ones don't seem to list any prices.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

No need. Here is what you said about it. They should just pay.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99979991&postcount=1263

Oh here we go again. You said they *couldnt* do it. You were incorrect. I told you they could in fact do it. You complained they'd have to pay, I told you the cost was minimal. You complained they hadn't the brains to work out how to spilt the bill between them. I told you they probably already have an admin fund they could use. No matter what solution I give you, you find a problem with it to complain about.

And btw the way. The auto address app lets them do this for free. Each parent can can look up their eircode and get the small area code label and give it to the person in charge who can sort and group by small areas. Or the one person can look up every eircode (for free) and get the small area code. The app will even sort them and group them based on small area code in the deliveries tab. But I'm sure you'll find a problem with this too.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Oh here we go again. You said they *couldnt* do it. You were incorrect. I told you they could in fact do it. You complained they'd have to pay, I told you the cost was minimal. You complained they hadn't the brains to work out how to spilt the bill between them. I told you they probably already have an admin fund they could use. No matter what solution I give you, you find a problem with it to complain about.

And btw the way. The auto address app lets them do this for free. Each parent can can look up their eircode and get the small area code label and give it to the person in charge who can sort and group by small areas. Or the one person can look up every eircode (for free) and get the small area code. The app will even sort them and group them based on small area code in the deliveries tab. But I'm sure you'll find a problem with this too.

and you're off (again) hammering square pegs into round holes. So, you think it is practical to tell all the parents - download this app, enter their eircode into it, figure out how to get the small area code out of it (which isn't that easy) and send that code on...

.. as opposed to just sending their address and the people putting pins into a set of maps.

If using a postcode is not as easy as using a script to automatically extract it from an email or web form, and automatically sorting it and producing lists of related areas, then the postcode and app are zero use for this application.

You being clever and showing that it is theoretically possible to use the app, no matter how impractical it is, doesn't prove your point. But, yes, here we go again ...

Just to be 100% clear. The app is great for navigation and deliveries, but it simply can't cover all use cases. That's the whole point of the ECAD/ECAF, where people use their own software/scripts etc to do whatever it is they want. Surely you see this?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

and you're off (again) hammering square pegs into round holes. So, you think it is practical to tell all the parents - download this app, enter their eircode into it, figure out how to get the small area code out of it (which isn't that easy) and send that code on...

.. as opposed to just sending their address and the people putting pins into a set of maps.

If using a postcode is not as easy as using a script to automatically extract it from an email or web form, and automatically sorting it and producing lists of related areas, then the postcode and app are zero use for this application.

You being clever and showing that it is theoretically possible to use the app, no matter how impractical it is, doesn't prove your point. But, yes, here we go again ...

There you go "people are too stupid to work the app" you found a problem. Good man.

Enter your eircode
Save and add to deliveries
Look at the label in the corner


Now of course as mentioned, if they want to just send their address to someone who can just run a quick look up and sort all the codes.....they'll have to part with €25. Oh the humanity.

If a shop door doesn't have a pull or push sign on it, do you just assume the door can't be opened and walk away?

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

There you go "people are too stupid to work the app" you found a problem. Good man.

Enter your eircode
Save and add to deliveries
Look at the label in the corner


Now of course as mentioned, if they want to just send their address to someone who can just run a quick look up and sort all the codes.....they'll have to part with €25. Oh the humanity.

If a shop door doesn't have a pull or push sign on it, do you just assume the door can't be opened and walk away?

It has nothing to do with 'stupidity'. It is simply more work. So, people will choose a different way of getting the information that involves less work.

It's not rocket science.

Tychoo

I used mine for the first time last week

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

It has nothing to do with 'stupidity'. It is simply more work. So, people will choose a different way of getting the information that involves less work.

It's not rocket science.

Then do it your way. Everyone just sends their address / postcode or extract it from where ever and run the codes through the ECAD for a small fee.

You argued things can't be done. When you're proven wrong, you start another complaint.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Then do it your way. Everyone just sends their address / postcode or extract it from where ever and run the codes through the ECAD for a small fee.

You argued things can't be done. When you're proven wrong, you start another complaint.

Okay, you proved me wrong. It can be done. There is no way in the wide eartlhly world anyone would use the app for this purpose, but you are right it could be done. Happy now? :rolleyes:

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Okay, you proved me wrong. It can be done. There is no way in the wide eartlhly world anyone would use the app for this purpose, but you are right it could be done. Happy now? :rolleyes:

If that's your belief then as I said in my post.... Don't use the app. Do it your way. Which also can be done.

I'd be happier if you could see these things for yourself instead of arguing them on here over and over again.

gctest50

plodder wrote: »

......... So, people will choose a different way of getting the information that involves less work.

less work

and you want people putting pins into a set of maps ?

plodder wrote: »

.. as opposed to just sending their address and the people putting pins into a set of maps.

pins into a set of maps ???

Sam Russell

Mod: @plodder and @ukoda.

Can you stop this bickering. It proves nothing having a go at each other. There is no convergence in your opinions.

sondagefaux

plodder wrote: »

ukoda wrote: »

There you go "people are too stupid to work the app" you found a problem. Good man.

Enter your eircode
Save and add to deliveries
Look at the label in the corner


Now of course as mentioned, if they want to just send their address to someone who can just run a quick look up and sort all the codes.....they'll have to part with 25. Oh the humanity.

If a shop door doesn't have a pull or push sign on it, do you just assume the door can't be opened and walk away?

It has nothing to do with 'stupidity'. It is simply more work. So, people will choose a different way of getting the information that involves less work.

It's not rocket science.

You'll generally find that if something can be used in a particular way, it will be used.

For example, toothbrushes, cigarette lighters and razor blades...

plodder

Problem: Find locations of (say) 1,000 family homes

Solution 1:
Ask each family to download an app to a phone, enter their eircode and get an area code out of it, send area code by email.

Solution 2:
Each family sends the eircode, and one (or more) persons types the eircode into app to get area code.

Solution 3:
Each family sends their address and someone pin points each address on a map.

Solution 4:
Someone builds a web page with google maps, and each family pinpoints their location using it.

Which solution involves the least work? I think it's number 4, then 3, 2, 1.

sondagefaux

Building a web page is the least amount of work?

plodder

sondagefaux wrote: »

Building a web page is the least amount of work?

Yes Though you'd have to use something different to embed a google map. You don't even need a web page. You tell them to go to maps.google.ie, locate your house, click on it, copy the link in the address bar and email that.

carlmango11

Apologies if this has been the case for a while now but Domino's now accept Eircodes. Was pretty cool entering my code and it immediately knowing my address.

On the UK tab I have to enter my postcode along with my house number.

I'm a believer