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Eircode discussion

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    #242
    JohnC.
    Registered Users Posts: 3,425 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    ukoda wrote: »
    they also use it on their application form for the Delivery Box service

    They also use it on their "address checker" tool: http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx


    its on their forms to apply for Prize Bonds, Household Budget, Savings Bonds

    They also use it on new "incorrect address" labels, which have boxes on the bottom to put the eircode of the correct address in, which they did to one I received.


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    #243
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    There is?

    It's a code that translates one-to-one with a precise geographic location. How exactly that makes it unsuitable for navigation is completely beyond me, particularly since my company finds it eminently suitable for navigation on a daily basis.

    So, who is it that's agreeing with you that a code that precisely identifies a geographic location is unsuitable for navigation?
    I missed this post among the general banter. It's not the code that is unsuitable for navigation, but the license, which doesn't suit navigation companies. They don't want to keep track of the end-users of their products. Neither do they (or can they) keep track of how many lookups occur using their products.


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    #244
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    I don't agree with the criticism of geodirectory either. Geodirectory was a source of data (addresses and locations primarily) only. It was up to Eircode to design its own structure, whether area based or point based, or hierarchichal or unstructured. That had nothing to do with geodirectory. Granularity has nothing to do with it either.]

    That was not the brief given to eircode. It was to specifically add a postal code to geodirectories , geodirectories is and remains the authorative list of mail address and first and foremost eircode is a postcode


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    #245
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Ukoda was claiming that it does what they recommended. You can't both be right.

    That's my opinion. I can see those recommendations being met per my previous post. Everyone doesn't have to have the same argument.


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    #246
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    plodder wrote: »
    In your opinion. Did you think to ask anyone else (like the public) whether they would use a random code?

    No? Oh dear..

    Where can I see the arguments written down to overrule the recommendation of the postcode board, the transport users etc? Was it your big idea, because you seem very attached to it.

    I don't agree with the criticism of geodirectory either. Geodirectory was a source of data (addresses and locations primarily) only. It was up to Eircode to design its own structure, whether area based or point based, or hierarchichal or unstructured. That had nothing to do with geodirectory. Granularity has nothing to do with it either.

    I think your point might have some merit, if people recognised the tradeoff which is the loss of public/open structure and were prepared to compensate for that (with some free datasets). If not, then people like FTAI are going to continue asking for it to be scrapped (or parked) and replaced by something that meets the original requirements for openness.


    with modern databases , a "code"like a postal code should simply be a key into the database . all relevant data is then linked to that key , in itself that key is meaningless. additional fields and data can easily be added without breaking any existing program code etc

    in that regard eircode should just be like a PPS number meaningless in itself

    Geodirectories is the master database , Eircode cannot be added to any location not already defined in GeoDirectories. hence eircode is a supplier of postal codes to geodirectory.

    Several transport users have said they can use it and several are implanting it .


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    #247
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    people like FTAI are going to continue asking for it to be scrapped (or parked) and replaced by something that meets the original requirements for openness.

    I think you'll find they are calling for no such thing anymore.

    The latest stance from FTAI is: our members told us they were impressed with the SAC's in eircode database and the Autoaddress app. We're just a trade association tho, so it's down to each Company to decide if they want to use eircode or not.

    You remember about 6 months ago I predicted FTAI were softening their stance....


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    #248
    a65b2cd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭a65b2cd


    plodder wrote: »
    Yes.

    The Department are the owners of the Eircode database not Capita - they have a ten-year contract as the Postcode Licence Management Holder http://www.merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Releases/minister-welcomes-signing-of-national-postcode-system-contract.html

    Value added resellers are probably dominating sales of ECAD and ECAF as their services are more tuned to the needs of their clients.

    So where is the monopoly and what is Capita's incentive to promote Eircode?


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    #249
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    I think you'll find they are calling for no such thing anymore.

    The latest stance from FTAI is: our members told us they were impressed with the SAC's in eircode database and the Autoaddress app. We're just a trade association tho, so it's down to each Company to decide if they want to use eircode or not.

    You remember about 6 months ago I predicted FTAI were softening their stance....
    Eh, what about the newspaper report a week ago mentioned on the other thread..

    Should Eircode be scrapped?
    When asked why he believes there is such a low uptake on the Eircode system, McDonell replied

    "There's a few reasons for it, it's not just a case of the cost. The bottom line is, there is literally no benefit in using it."

    So, what should happen next? If this system is not fit for the purpose outlined by Eircode themselves, should it be scrapped?

    "Eircode should be “parked” as a unique property identifier, essentially becoming the PPSN for property. It should be treated in the same way as a PPSN: not publically displayed, but used on all Government (and utility-provider) correspondence with the individual or business. DCENR should then revisit the NPPB report, and roll out a national postcode consistent with its original research findings from 2006," says McDonnell.
    not much softening there. As I'm sure someone will chime in "there is literally no benefit in using it" is not a literally correct statement, but should be understood as an exclamation of frustration and general unhappiness with it.


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    #250
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Eh, what about the newspaper report a week ago mentioned on the other thread..

    Should Eircode be scrapped?


    not much softening there. As I'm sure someone will chime in "there is literally no benefit in using it" is not a literally correct statement, but should be understood as an exclamation of frustration and general unhappiness with it.

    And the very latest from them is: we're just a trade association, it's up to the companies themselves to decide if they want to use it.

    The arrogance of FTAI In their previous statement is appalling. "Give us the code we want. And only the code we want. Screw everyone else. Screw the other industries that are implementing it and using it. Screw the freight companies who support it. We should decide the postcode of ireland because we have a God given right to it"

    An Post, Nightline and Fastway have the lions share of the parcel delivery market in ireland. And they all are using eircode. The FTAI represent only 1 industry and not everyone in that industry. They need to pipe down.
    They couldn't figure out how to use SAC's untill Autoaddress laid it out for them. They were told about them months before launch but ignored it.


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    #251
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    plodder wrote: »
    As I'm sure someone will chime in "there is literally no benefit in using it" is not a literally correct statement, but should be understood as an exclamation of frustration and general unhappiness with it.

    To be frank, if they can't make a factual argument against it and have to resort to untruths in order to criticise it, I'd take their frustration and unhappiness with a pinch of salt.


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    #252
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    And the very latest from them is: we're just a trade association, it's up to the companies themselves to decide if they want to use it.

    The arrogance of FTAI In their previous statement is appalling. "Give us the code we want. And only the code we want. Screw everyone else. Screw the other industries that are implementing it and using it. Screw the freight companies who support it. We should decide the postcode of ireland because we have a God given right to it"

    An Post, Nightline and Fastway have the lions share of the parcel delivery market in ireland. And they all are using eircode. The FTAI represent only 1 industry and not everyone in that industry. They need to pipe down.
    No-one looking at this objectively would agree with that. The main criteria that were identified up front were ignored in order to create a profit making opportunity that the state hoped to be involved in. As for "screw everyone else" that is objectively false too. It is still possible to fix it without affecting its usability by anyone else. If anything, it's the "accept whatever is given to us" attitude of people like you that is arrogant.
    They couldn't figure out how to use SAC's untill Autoaddress laid it out for them. They were told about them months before launch but ignored it.
    You really are quite shamelessly, misrepresenting and misquoting them.


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    #253
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    Did any one get in the post plastic eircode 'credit' card size cards with pictures by the artist Padraig McCaul on the back? Ours was in a hand written envelope with my wife's name on, sent to her parents house (along with two cards for them with a different picture on the back). Nothing else in with them in the envelope. They appear to be official eircode ones with the Eircodes correct for both houses.

    Back in July last year we got the paper credit card sized one in the post.

    Very odd to suddenly get these....


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    #254
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    plodder wrote: »
    byrnefm wrote: »
    One other thing I was wondering about .. one of the complaints about Eircode is that many people's addresses' counties change (I know it doesn't really). Why the need for the county to be included at all in the address if the Eircode is included? It's more granular than a county. It works in the UK .. the county is effectively optional.

    I know people have already tried it with the Dublin district codes .. by forcing people to still write that with the Eircode just makes the code stand out a bit too much, as in, it doesn't appear to add value if included on an envelope since your post might get delayed if you leave out the Dublin district, despite including the Eircode.
    If An Post "used" Eircodes in any meaningful sense then it would mean you could address a letter with a name and an eircode only, but they say you can't do that. You would also be able to drop parts of the address like the county.
    You can actually. In the first few days after Eircodes were introduced, several people sent mail with just names and Eircodes on them. All were delivered correctly.


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    #255
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    You can actually. In the first few days after Eircodes were introduced, several people sent mail with just names and Eircodes on them. All were delivered correctly.
    You can't rely on that working. If An Post says (which they do) that you must use your full address, then you can't depend on your post arriving quickly, if at all.


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    #256
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    plodder wrote: »
    sondagefaux wrote: »
    You can actually. In the first few days after Eircodes were introduced, several people sent mail with just names and Eircodes on them. All were delivered correctly.
    You can't rely on that working. If An Post says (which they do) that you must use your full address, then you can't depend on your post arriving quickly, if at all.
    It's already been done. You didn't specify post arriving quickly.

    If this item of post could be delivered by An Post, why would they have a problem with one addressed with an Eircode?

    A sharp-eyed Irish postman demonstrated his detective skills after tracking down a Co Donegal house with only the vaguest of instructions on a letter to go by.

    The letter was sent from Belfast across the border into the Irish Republic to the home of a PHD student.
    In full, the envelope contained the message on the front: Your man Henderson, that boy with the glasses who is doing a PhD up here at Queen s in Belfast. Buncrana, County Donegal, Ireland.
    A friend sent the letter to Barry Henderson who is studying for a PhD in history at Queen s University Belfast with the potentially confusing address at his home in Buncranca, which has a population of 7,000.
    The local postman for the country s An Post mail service knew who Henderson was and then passed it on to his wife Roisin who works for a local newspaper in the Co Donegal town.
    Inside the envelope was a terse message written by Barry Henderson s friend: If this has arrived, you live in a village.
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/18/postman-turns-detective-to-deliver-letter-with-cryptic-address-in-ireland[/font]


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    #257
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    It's already been done. You didn't specify post arriving quickly.
    Sure, anything is possible as your example shows. The question is whether it scales to being done efficiently by the whole country.

    What do you think would happen if every single piece of mail was addressed with a name and an Eircode only from now on? Nothing would get delivered because the whole system of dealing with the quirky exceptions would be overwhelmed.

    They could make it work and one way to do it, would be to print the address onto mail that doesn't have it already. But, I'm fairly sure they can't do that at the moment.


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    #258
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    plodder wrote: »
    sondagefaux wrote: »
    It's already been done. You didn't specify post arriving quickly.
    Sure, anything is possible as your example shows. The question is whether it scales to being done efficiently by the whole country.

    What do you think would happen if every single piece of mail was addressed with a name and an Eircode only from now on? Nothing would get delivered because the whole system of dealing with the quirky exceptions would be overwhelmed.

    They could make it work and one way to do it, would be to print the address onto mail that doesn't have it already. But, I'm fairly sure they can't do that at the moment.
    An Post is the designated universal service provider for regulated mail services in Ireland. It has a legal obligation to deliver mail of they type that comes under the regulations at least once per day at least five days per week to every home or premises of natural or legal person within the state.

    Because of the unique characteristics of Eircodes, a piece of mail addressed with only an Eircode can be delivered to an identifiable postal address.

    Therefore, An Post has a legal obligation to deliver it, provided it is within the weight and dimensions referred to in the regulations.

    If everyone sent mail with only names and Eircodes, An Post would have to find some way of dealing with it or it would be failing to meet its legal obligations.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2002/si/616/made/en/print


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    #259
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    An Post is allowed to stipulate what is and isn't a valid address. So, they can decide whether Eircodes alone are to be allowed. If you don't follow their rules, they can decide to not deliver your mail


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    #260
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    They've already delivered post with just names and Eircodes so they clearly regard them as valid addresses.


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    #261
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    They've already delivered post with just names and Eircodes so they clearly regard them as valid addresses.

    https://twitter.com/postvox/status/621419295667580928

    They can, but won't


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    #262
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    ukoda wrote: »
    sondagefaux wrote: »
    They've already delivered post with just names and Eircodes so they clearly regard them as valid addresses.

    https://twitter.com/postvox/status/621419295667580928

    They can, but won't
    They've already delivered post with just names and Eircodes on the envelopes. And they've delivered that weirdly addressed letter to 'Your Man' in Buncrana. Despite what they may say, they can and do deliver mail that doesn't contain the full postal address.


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    #263
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    I'm gonna go with what An Post actually do rather than what they say on the their Twitter account. :)


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    #264
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    I'm gonna go with what An Post actually do rather than what they say on the their Twitter account. :)

    Yes that's what I said, they can do it. But they don't want to and tell people they must use their full address


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    #265
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    Yes that's what I said, they can do it. But they don't want to and tell people they must use their full address
    Their sorting machines can recognise Eircodes and can presumably sort post using it. But, what happens then, if a postman gets a sackful of mail with no address on any of it? It's not practical:-

    a) to expect him to have a smart phone with the autoaddress app

    b) to type in all the eircodes where it works out a delivery route

    They can handle Eircodes on an exceptional basis, in the same way as they can handle the odd letter with a cryptic puzzle on the front. But, the mail will be diverted and delayed and the process does not scale. At some point, they could just decide to refuse delivery altogether. They would be within their rights until such time as they come with a proper solution that is integrated with the sorting system.

    BTW. The Daily Mail is all over Eircode today. Not pretty.


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    #266
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Their sorting machines can recognise Eircodes and can presumably sort post using it. But, what happens then, if a postman gets a sackful of mail with no address on any of it? It's not practical:-

    a) to expect him to have a smart phone with the autoaddress app

    b) to type in all the eircodes where it works out a delivery route

    They can handle Eircodes on an exceptional basis, in the same way as they can handle the odd letter with a cryptic puzzle on the front. But, the mail will be diverted and delayed and the process does not scale. At some point, they could just decide to refuse delivery altogether. They would be within their rights until such time as they come with a proper solution that is integrated with the sorting system.

    BTW. The Daily Mail is all over Eircode today. Not pretty.

    Yes that's why they don't want people to put just an eircode. It was never intended to replace addresses.


    Nothing in the Daily Mail is ever pretty, coherent or entirely accurate. It's always 99% sensationalist nonsense with about 1% fact, if even.


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    #267
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    Nothing in the Daily Mail is ever pretty, coherent or entirely accurate. It's always 99% sensationalist nonsense with about 1% fact, if even.
    Have you read it?


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    #268
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Have you read it?

    No way.

    And before you say don't comment on the article before I read it, I didn't say a word about the article. I gave my opinion on the paper as a whole.


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    #269
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    ukoda wrote: »
    . . .
    They also use it on their "address checker" tool: http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx


    its on their forms to apply for Prize Bonds, Household Budget, Savings Bonds


    They do not use it in any meaningful way to sort and deliver post. For example, I got a letter two weeks ago addressed to Westport, Co. Mayo, [my Eircode].

    Given the uniqueness of the Eircode, this should have been ample for An Post to deliver the letter. It arrived two days late with a handwritten note on the envelope asking me in future to provide my correspondents with my "full address".

    On the other hand, letters to me from any part of the country without the Eircode but including my townland arrive overnight. Call Eircode whatever else you like, it is not a postal code.


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    #270
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    They do not use it in any meaningful way to sort and deliver post. For example, I got a letter two weeks ago addressed to Westport, Co. Mayo, [my Eircode].

    Given the uniqueness of the Eircode, this should have been ample for An Post to deliver the letter. It arrived two days late with a handwritten note on the envelope asking me in future to provide my correspondents with my "full address".

    On the other hand, letters to me from any part of the country without the Eircode but including my townland arrive overnight. Call Eircode whatever else you like, it is not a postal code.

    An Post have asked people multiple times to include the eircode at the end of their full address. Eircode is used at the 4 main sort centres and your full address is used thereafter.

    People have been repeatedly told to keep using there full address and just add eircode. So if you stop dropping the townland form your address your problem will be solved.


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    #271
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    ukoda wrote: »
    People have been repeatedly told to keep using there full address and just add eircode.

    What's the point? So far as An Post is concerned it will not make any difference, the post will arrive on time without it.
    ukoda wrote: »
    So if you stop dropping the townland form your address your problem will be solved.

    I didn't. It was an error on the part of my correspondent. I would always give my full address, because I know An Post doesn't use the Eircode to deliver my post.


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