BMW 330e

stesaurus

There's a slight doubt over the grants when it comes to PCP deals as they could be considered commercial and not private I believe. Initially BMW weren't quoting the full grants and then when they realized Nissan were allowing it they decided to include it.

You may want to get a quote from either Joe Duffy or Kearys who are used to pricing up PCP on the i3.

mickdw

Well then they need to not quote for pcp at all then as who is going to sign up for finance on a deal that is pricing the car 7500 dearer than the open market.

vintagevrs

Will BMW not see the grant as a separate agreement between the customer and the state. As far as they are concerned the costs are what has been sent to you?

They have no control of the grant and it could change at any time.

I believe the max deposit they will allow is 30%, so maybe best to reduce the deposit by 7.5k as this is effectively what will happen.

You will pay 30% deposit to BMW (14,800) but get a cheque later from the state for 7,500. So your effective deposit is 7,300.

The rest of the figures remain unchanged.


However, it is more complicated for BMW as government schemes will impact GFV. If the grant is pulled it will put GFV up, if it is doubled it will put it down (not that that will happen)

stesaurus

You won't get a cheque for the grants. It's not any kind of rebate. It has to be processed by the dealer and you never see the money. So they do control it.

The schemes won't impact the GFV, guaranteed is in the name. It would impact the value at the time the deal ends so you could end up with more equity if the grants disappear or you hand back the keys as the car is worth less due to higher grants etc.

vintagevrs

s.welstead wrote: »

You won't get a cheque for the grants. It's not any kind of rebate. It has to be processed by the dealer and you never see the money. So they do control it.

The schemes won't impact the GFV, guaranteed is in the name. It would impact the value at the time the deal ends so you could end up with more equity if the grants disappear or you hand back the keys as the car is worth less due to higher grants etc.

Fair enough about the rebate being handled by the dealer.


What I meant by the GFV being impacted is that it may be difficult for BMW to decide on a GFV currently with the grant part being uncertain for them, they don't want to be to reserved and keep it safe and low as many buyers focus solely on the monthly payments and this will put them up.

But if they keep it high, future EV incentives could cause a situation where people are handing back cars with a market value less than the remaining finance owed.

Regardless of what the GFV, it's still 3.9% apr on the same car so total cost is unchanged.

carsfan

I can't see the government giving you a grant cheque of 7.5 k on a car you don't own.
I think another poster voodoo melon said the dealer told him bmw get the grant and reduce the price accordingly.
They probably just haven't worked it into their system yet.
I was thinking about this car however and wonder if in 3 years will it be a dinosaur in terms of hybrid tech ?
If we buy now are we early adapters that may rue our decisions? Are we Betamax buyers when the forthcoming tesla etc are the vhs versions?

R.O.R

The grant is different between private and business customers, so perhaps that's why BMW are wary of publishing it. I've also been informed (not sure how true it is) that if you've had any sort of SEAI grant for any works, you won't qualify for the grant.

stesaurus

carsfan wrote: »

I can't see the government giving you a grant cheque of 7.5 k on a car you don't own.
I think another poster voodoo melon said the dealer told him bmw get the grant and reduce the price accordingly.
They probably just haven't worked it into their system yet.
I was thinking about this car however and wonder if in 3 years will it be a dinosaur in terms of hybrid tech ?
If we buy now are we early adapters that may rue our decisions? Are we Betamax buyers when the forthcoming tesla etc are the vhs versions?

You could think that way about petrol/diesel also. You could also say the same about buying a new phone or anything relying on latest tech, there's always something new on the horizon that will outperform the current crop.
If you're in the market though and it makes sense then go for it. Silly to hold off indefinitely.

R.O.R wrote: »

The grant is different between private and business customers, so perhaps that's why BMW are wary of publishing it. I've also been informed (not sure how true it is) that if you've had any sort of SEAI grant for any works, you won't qualify for the grant.

Yes originally they had considered PCP as being a commercial lease and would only qualify for the 3800 and not the full 5k. It probably does need to be clarified where PCP falls under.
First I've heard of not qualifying for the grant, you mean like grants for home improvements? I can't see that being true.
Sure wouldn't that also impact anyone going for their 2nd EV purchase and not qualifying 2nd time around? Which hasn't been the case at all.

vintagevrs

s.welstead wrote: »

You could think that way about petrol/diesel also. You could also say the same about buying a new phone or anything relying on latest tech, there's always something new on the horizon that will outperform the current crop.
If you're in the market though and it makes sense then go for it. Silly to hold off indefinitely.

I think carsfan has a point though. This is new tech completely for the mainstream from BMW. Phones and tech in your example for the most part evolve gradually. This is the first offering from BMW in this market and there is definitely more risk associated with being an early adopter. However, if this type of vehicle really takes off, the risk could apply to the 318d where in 5 years time no one wants one.

mickdw

s.welstead wrote: »

You won't get a cheque for the grants. It's not any kind of rebate. It has to be processed by the dealer and you never see the money. So they do control it.

The schemes won't impact the GFV, guaranteed is in the name. It would impact the value at the time the deal ends so you could end up with more equity if the grants disappear or you hand back the keys as the car is worth less due to higher grants etc.

Im damn sure it will alter the gfv as offered from day one by bmw. The one as offered today was about 44 percent of retail price.
If the car is then retailing at 7500 less due to government funding, that same gfv would be about 52% of retail price. Manufacturers generally dont go that high on the gfv

carsfan

I think the standard gfv on the 3 series is about 44 per cent on all models. No reason it should be different for this I suppose. Would give some peace of mind that you could hand it back if values dip badly on them.
Any indication how long the 3.9 per cent will apply though?

Voodoomelon

The 3.9% is only until the end of the first quarter. New rates will be published in April. That can't be true about the SEAI grant, I think I availed of it to get a new boiler recently which effectively saves you peanuts, hardly grounds to stop me applying for a considerably larger one for a vehicle?

Frank Keane's had a large flow chart of how the grant application works, I should have taken a picture of it.

carsfan

If you order before the end of March, do you think you could get the 3.9 rate even if the car not delivered until few weeks later but deal done ?
In case the rates go up?
I have a feeling bmw will maintain the rates however as they are getting beaten in sales well by Audi. 3 series figures were low enough if I remember .

Voodoomelon

I reckon they'll stay the same too. Yes you can place the order now and get this quarter's rate.

Still not sure what way this is panning out for me yet, a test drive will reveal all. Currently pumping cash in to the 7 series now too for suspension and transmission service which is diluting my thinking somewhat.

carsfan

Yeah but you own your 7 series, with a pcp you won't but this may not matter.
I do think you will find any 3 series even well kitted out to feel inferior, they are built to a lower quality level as they are a different price point.
Still a good place to be but not the same level of luxury.

mickdw

I wouldnt be making a big deal of the pcp.
Its not magic. One can still come up with affordable repayments if putting up 13 or 14k as deposit and taking on traditional finance just over 5 years instead. That would leave you in a very similar position at year 3
Sure, the payment might be 5 hundred plus going this way but even with the pcp, you would want to be saving an extra 100 per month to boost available deposit as there wouldn't be 13k equity in the car at year 3 on the pcp

Voodoomelon

Keane's rang me today with some prices. He asked me if i'd seen all the reviews popping up online, I said I had. He reckons now its going to be a popular car here.

I mentioned the potential problem regarding PCP and the grant, he said he had the "grant people" in a meeting on their premises that very moment (they run training courses at their dealership), said he'd find out for sure what way it was going to pan out.

Anyways I was half asleep when he rang me, but these are the figures I got. He simply subtracted the grant from the retail price and worked the figures out based on that.

I choose a deposit of €10,000.

Deposit €10,000
Monthly payments of €772
GFV €24476

Total price €62,268.

Thing is, I *think* he said he based those figures on a retail of €65,000 (like the first page).

So €65,000-€7,500 grant is €57500.

€62,268-€57,500 = €4768 interest which can't be right.

Might be a bit of a mixup regarding delivery and related charges.

carsfan

Is this for the big spec car you had on the configurator?
3.9 per cent apt I presume. Any mention is a demo. My dealer guy rang me today but I couldn't take the call. will try to get more info tomorrow.

Voodoomelon

Aye, the big spec. They're hefty monthlys, but the difference in the maximum deposit and €10k goes a long way towards making a dent in them.

What do you reckon a €65k 330e would be worth after 3 years? €35k? Not a bad equity figure of €10k to play with if so.

No word on a demo yet, he hung up agreeing to get me a date for a demo and to nail down the PCP/grant deal. He said the grant works much the same way as disability purchases work, its BMW that do the hard work, not the customer.

carsfan

A lot for a 3 series at the end of the day.
Might be a sought after car in Dublin alright, less so in country dealers where diesel still the boss.
I was thinking, if you drive say a 100 miles do you run out of electricity at some stage and then effectively have a 320i with the extra weight of the batteries?

PaulKK

Sorry if I sounds stupid here, but apart from the low interest rate what is the actual advantage of buying a car on PCP?

Its my understanding that you put down a large deposit, pay relatively high monthly installments and then at the end either a balloon payment of the gaurenteed value or you give back the car?

If you have a large deposit, why would you not buy using a traditional 5 year credit Union loan or similar where you typically get a rebate on interest each year?

I do like the look of the 330e, I would be curious of how it would perform on my 40km each way motorway commute. The performance figures are certainly enticing.

CountingCrows

Your deposit and monthly payments are only 2/3rds of the cars total value so your getting a newer/more expensive car than you could with your typical car loan. Obviously the chickens come home to roost after the 3 years but you can kick the can down the road again then...

sunnysoutheast

330e looks good, but I think the real winner for BMW will be when they put the plain Jane 225xed internals into the X1. They share the same platform so it won't be long. I'd buy one of them tomorrow.

Don't Audi have an e-quattro in the works, but it's too big to fit in the A4?

mickdw

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Keane's rang me today with some prices. He asked me if i'd seen all the reviews popping up online, I said I had. He reckons now its going to be a popular car here.

I mentioned the potential problem regarding PCP and the grant, he said he had the "grant people" in a meeting on their premises that very moment (they run training courses at their dealership), said he'd find out for sure what way it was going to pan out.

Anyways I was half asleep when he rang me, but these are the figures I got. He simply subtracted the grant from the retail price and worked the figures out based on that.

I choose a deposit of €10,000.

Deposit €10,000
Monthly payments of €772
GFV €24476

Total price €62,268.

Thing is, I *think* he said he based those figures on a retail of €65,000 (like the first page).

So €65,000-€7,500 grant is €57500.

€62,268-€57,500 = €4768 interest which can't be right.

Might be a bit of a mixup regarding delivery and related charges.

I dont think that interest figure is far off what would be correct. You would be financing 47500.
Absolute lunacy imo to consider that kind of monthly on a 3 series of any description, M cars aside.

PaulKK

CountingCrows wrote: »

Your deposit and monthly payments are only 2/3rds of the cars total value so your getting a newer/more expensive car than you could with your typical car loan. Obviously the chickens come home to roost after the 3 years but you can kick the can down the road again then...

But you never own the car? Unless you pay the final 1/3 at the end?

Would it not make sense to just get a loan and buy outright over a longer period?

It would kill me to pay out such a large sum and just hand the car back.

I'd rather just borrow the 2/3rds and buy second hand.

But those thinking of getting this new please buy one so I can buy it in 3/4 years

mickdw

Yes it makes sense to borrow to buy outright over a longer period IF you can get a lower interest rate.
Some of the PCP rates are unbeatable at the minute. Take vw doing 1.9% PCP on highline passats. I dont see a cheaper way of owning one - Even if you went with the PCP and but it out at the end, the low rate will mean its the cheapest way of doing it.

mickdw

Yes it makes sense to borrow to buy outright over a longer period IF you can get a lower interest rate.
Some of the PCP rates are unbeatable at the minute. Take vw doing 1.9% PCP on highline passats. I dont see a cheaper way of owning one - Even if you went with the PCP and but it out at the end, the low rate will mean its the cheapest way of doing it. Plus you can still bargain - its not that the available discount is making up for the low rate

unkel

Voodoomelon wrote: »

What do you reckon a €65k 330e would be worth after 3 years? €35k?

47% depreciation overall? Very hard to say. Don't underestimate the depreciation on optional extras though, it is high.

I'd say the base €40k 330e would depreciate about 40% over 3 years. But optional extras maybe 65%, giving €33k so overall your figure of €35k would not be too far off

Obviously I'm only guessing here. You keep your cars in concours condition, so that is worth a premium too when you come to sell them on

mickdw

Well the 65k car is really a 57.5k car.
I'd say it would be worth low 30s with a basic m sport worth high 20s giving you a 4k premium maybe for all the extras.

carsfan

It's extremely hard to guesstimate into the future what these will be worth.
Used car values are very high at the moment due to short supply but with the market picking up there may be more availability in the coming years dropping values. Lot of people buying on pcp too so there may be lots more 2/3 year old cars.
Couple that with the hybrid technology that could put some off or maybe make it more attractive who knows, I think it's a bit of a leap into the unknown.
At least if you have a gfv from bmw you can hand it back if they are a disaster.

unkel

I do a lot of small trips and my annual mileage is below average. In fairness if I had €40k sitting in my bank account doing nothing and I was in the market for a new car, I'd probably get the 330e. Hard to say no to a free €7.5k subsidy from the tax payer and a subsidised discounted motor tax of just €170, never mind the free parking and free electricity at charging points (again both subsidised by the full whack paying, less well off taxpayer who can't afford a new car like this)

Considering all that, this car is a bargain

Voodoomelon

It's a tricky one alright. I wouldn't be spending €65k on one either, the options would be paired back. That's also the full price with no discount.

carsfan

Not sure bmw will discount on this model?
Suppose depends on dealer and their need to do a deal.
Also if you look on carzone there are are a few 2015 x5 40e models for sale that I guess were cars bmw made the dealers take as demos and they now are trying to sell them.
I reckon bmw will make the dealers take a demo 330e to showcase the model.
These might be a good buy after a few months.

mickdw

It's an interesting point re resale.
To be honest the current pricing with grant is not where bmw want to place this car. Sure it's useful to get sponge on the road but it's far from the entry level model. With that in mind, I see either the grant disappearing or the price creeping up to eat up the grant if it stays.... The car will have to sit at its proper point within the model range.
assuming that would happen over the next 3 years, the used values could be great.
I guess what is equidistant Lilley is the

mickdw

It's an interesting point re resale.
To be honest the current pricing with grant is not where bmw want to place this car. Sure it's useful to get some on the road but it's far from the entry level model. With that in mind, I see either the grant disappearing or the price creeping up to eat up the grant if it stays.... The car will have to sit at its proper point within the model range.
assuming that would happen over the next 3 years, the used values could be great.
I guess what is equally likely is that the 330e that will be developed in 3 years might be far superior in terms of battery performance. That would hit residuals somewhat but I cannot see these being a disaster.

carsfan

I read in autocar magazine yesterday that bmw are saying the next generation m3/m4 will likely be hybrids and they intend to pursue the technology to improve performance as well as efficiency.
Also Ferrari are developing more hybrid tech to use in their model range as well as the la Ferrari .
Looks like this could be the future ....
For a while anyway

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

it's far from the entry level model. With that in mind, I see either the grant disappearing or the price creeping up to eat up the grant if it stays....

Which means the car is a steal brand new at the moment, and indeed that residuals will be high. Even if price and grant stay the same (with it remaining similarly priced to the cheapest diesel), residuals on a standard spec model should be very strong. On a par with diesels of similar price / spec I'd say, given for one that the motor tax is even lower (which is a major resale factor in this country)

I wouldn't worry too much about impact of improved battery tech on residuals either. Firstly it doesn't happen (or it happens very gradually) and where it does happen, residuals aren' t affected much (like in the residuals for the first generation Nissan Leaf didn't drop much when the extended range one came out)

mickdw

I agree that it is a bargain - well as much as any new bmw can be. Id probably have blindly placed an order for one if it was a brand new model. 3 years time will likely see these being traded in as an old model.

carsfan

There is a very good thread on bimmerpost with forthcoming models and it has the f30 3 series scheduled for end of production 10/2018 which means 2019 for an all new 3 series. Therefore in 3 years at the end of pcp from now you would have the old model. May affect the residual.
Coincidentally the current 5 is scheduled to end production October this year so I wouldn't be buying a new 5 series this year unless you got a give away deal.

mickdw

530e when it appears would be the business (if priced well)

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

I agree that it is a bargain - well as much as any new bmw can be. Id probably have blindly placed an order for one if it was a brand new model. 3 years time will likely see these being traded in as an old model.

I see where you are coming from and yes there is always a new model on the horizon (except when you buy it when it is just released of course)

That said, postponing or waiting for the new model 530e will run the risk the €7.5k subsidy will have evaporated by then. Let's face it, this subsidy is bogus. It really is too good to be true

Subsidies / low tax on PHEV in the Netherlands have already been pretty much scrapped altogether. This government will probably cop on too sooner rather than later. The CO2 / fuel consumption figures are just plain silly

I like Porsche, but when the Panamera Hybrid came out 3 years ago (you know the one - big 4 seater, 3l petrol turbo auto, well over 400bhp, well over 2,000kg) with a CO2 of 70g and consumption of 140MPG, I had a proper "this is a load of bollocks" moment

carsfan

Would agree with last post. Co2 figures and mpg are bogus and the tests will be changed sooner rather than later especially after the VW scandal.
Once they change the current testing the criteria for the grant will be null and void.
Maybe new criteria will come in but I guess with more and more cars becoming eligible they will scrap them.
If the grant didn't exist this car would be priced similar to the 330i which is where bmw have said they intend to price it and do in countries where no grants are available.

mickdw

I do agree that the grant will vanish rather quickly but perhaps not until the manufacturers get a line of these cars on the road.
I would confidently predict zero sales if bmw release the 530e and it's priced similarly or just under 530d due to grant being abolished.
Having said that, it appears tax breaks always favour the well off so 7500 government aid for buyers of new bmws seems about right.

mickdw

I do agree that the grant will vanish rather quickly but perhaps not until the manufacturers get a line of these cars on the road.
I would confidently predict zero sales if bmw release the 530e and it's priced similarly or just under 530d due to grant being abolished.
Having said that, it appears tax breaks always favour the well off so 7500 government aid for buyers of new bmws seems about right.

Leonard Hofstadter

mickdw wrote: »

I do agree that the grant will vanish rather quickly but perhaps not until the manufacturers get a line of these cars on the road.
I would confidently predict zero sales if bmw release the 530e and it's priced similarly or just under 530d due to grant being abolished.
Having said that, it appears tax breaks always favour the well off so 7500 government aid for buyers of new bmws seems about right.

Indeed, nobody will buy a 530e if it's the same price as a 530d (as it stands, only 2% of Irish buyers buy their 5 series with an engine that has the correct number of cylinders), large executive cars tend to be bought by company car drivers and do long distances so there would be no benefit from a money point of view - you'd never get the claimed fuel economy benefit. In addition, a 530e only has a piddly little four cylinder engine to the 530d's superior straight six.

If it was priced similar to a 520d (or less than that, as is the case with the 3 series plug-in) then I could see them shifting a fair few all right.

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

I would confidently predict zero sales if bmw release the 530e and it's priced similarly or just under 530d due to grant being abolished.

Zero sales just like there are zero sales of the 530d?

I agree though, the major attraction of these e cars is that they are extremely cheap (because of the grand). For some other people the low motor tax would be a big bonus too.

vintagevrs

A petrol hybrid will be a lot more refined than a diesel though. That would be a selling point to me personally. We have a very refined diesel car inside, but on the outside it still clatters like a Masey Ferguson.

unkel

vintagevrs wrote: »

A petrol hybrid will be a lot more refined than a diesel though. That would be a selling point to me personally. We have a very refined diesel car inside, but on the outside it still clatters like a Masey Ferguson.

And 0-100km/h in 6s. Without giving anyone cancer.

mickdw

unkel wrote: »

Zero sales just like there are zero sales of the 530d?

I agree though, the major attraction of these e cars is that they are extremely cheap (because of the grand). For some other people the low motor tax would be a big bonus too.

But there is a push to get these out there to move away from diesel. Will happen if pricing stays at current levels placing them nearly at bottom of range pricewise.
won't happen if a 20d is significantly cheaper.

Leonard Hofstadter

vintagevrs wrote: »

A petrol hybrid will be a lot more refined than a diesel though. That would be a selling point to me personally. We have a very refined diesel car inside, but on the outside it still clatters like a Masey Ferguson.

That's fair enough when comparing a four cylinder petrol to a four cylinder diesel (which is why I'd certainly have a 530e over a 520d) but a six cylinder diesel is in a completely different league to a four pot diesel, especially a straight six BMW diesel.