Wasps v Leinster match thread

awec

You can write off a loss as not mattering.

Can you write off a 50+ point destruction? I'm not so sure...

Clegg

36 points conceded in the second half with none scored in return.

Players should be ashamed of themselves dead rubber or no.

captbarnacles

Fitzgerald was outstanding imo. Wonder does Joe Schmidt still see him as a winger only.

Buer

awec wrote:

Can you write off a 50+ point destruction? I'm not so sure...

Will Oyonnax?

ThisRegard

sydthebeat wrote: »

"Afford"?

Of course he can afford it, there is absolutely nothing on the line here.

A defeat costs cullen nothing.

Move onto next week

He had an awful start to his reign, came good for a few, but Leinster suffering a humiliation, when did they last score in the game, does him no good.

It's one thing losing a dead duck game, but the manner of the loss makes it a problem.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Will Oyonnax?

Are Oyonnax a side Leinster really want to be compared to?

funtime93

Rob Kearney is possibly the most overrated player in Ireland. How he seems to just walk into the leinster team let alone the irish team completely baffles me.

irishbucsfan

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's one thing loosing a dead duck game, but the manner of the loss makes it a problem.

Why does the manner of a loss make it "a problem?" What does that mean exactly?

The only thing that matters now is the Pro 12. The selection for the last two games makes that clear. When we're playing in the Pro 12 playoffs noone will care about this performance.

Larbre34

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This game really doesn't matter. It hasn't mattered for months.

Let's hold the cries of indignation for the competition we're still in the running for.

No.

I was looking at Oyannax earlier and thinking, this is not acceptable for a professional side, there are minima acceptable to earn your money in terms of application and putting a plan on the pitch.

Didnt think id be saying that about our own team later in the day.

aimee1

ThisRegard wrote: »

He had an awful start to his reign, came good but Leinster suffering a humiliation, when did they last score in the game, does him no good.

It's one thing loosing a dead duck game, but the manner of the loss makes it a problem.

If the game was more final like with the result affecting both sides then we wouldnt have seen penalties tapped or kicked to the corner so much. There was a lack of structure to the game. Sub consciously the players knew the game wasnt critical to the season and that led to a lack of intensity.

Once Wasps got the TBP they were able to just pick off Leinster mistakes. In the grand scheme of things it doesnt matter.

Clegg

I thought Ven Der Flier played well enough after coming on as a sub. Poor Jordi is having a nightmare by comparison.

Mahatma Geansai

funtime93 wrote: »

Rob Kearney is possibly the most overrated player in Ireland. How he seems to just walk into the leinster team let alone the irish team completely baffles me.

He's great under the high ball though, isn't he? What else could you want from a 15?

Hopefully we'll see Payne feature there for the 6N.

Tox56

awec wrote: »

You can write off a loss as not mattering.

Can you write off a 50+ point destruction? I'm not so sure...

What is "mattering" and what difference does it really make going forward? The focus since Toulon was on the league and this result isnt going to impact that, or at least it shouldnt

JPCN1

Clegg wrote: »

I thought Ven Der Flier played well enough after coming on as a sub. Poor Jordi is having a nightmare by comparison.

While Murphy has been poor of late, Leinster were dismantled after he was called ashore.

ThisRegard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why does the manner of a loss make it "a problem?" What does that mean exactly?

What can he, or the players take from that game? Ok, we were beaten, but those few new players we tried together worked well, or those tactics looked good, himself out of position worked well.?

None of that, it was abysmal. How can you not have a problem with that? You think this a good place for the squad to be in going into the next lot of games?

To excuse it because it was a dead rubber game is a cop out. Could they not play for themselves, or at least the fans that travelled?

JPCN1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He's great under the high ball though, isn't he? What else could you want from a 15?

Hopefully we'll see Payne feature there for the 6N.

12. McCloskey, 13. Ringrose, 15. Henshaw. It's the future.

Robert not bringing enough of late.

irishbucsfan

ThisRegard wrote: »

What can he, or the players take from that came? Ok, we were beaten, but those few new players we tried together worked well, or those tactics looked good, himself out of position worked well.?

None of that, it was abysmal. How can you not have a problem with that? You think this a good place for the squad to be in going into the next lot of games?

To excuse it because it was a dead rubber game is a cop out. Could they not play for themselves, or at least the fans that travelled?

It's not a cop out. It was a dead rubber and we lost our captain and out half in the first quarter. The players themselves said the game was meaningless before (Sexton said it).

I'd much rather they play for themselves and the fans in games where there is something on the line.

Just seems like people being reactionary for the sake of it really. If we play like that in a game that matters, which we did in the reverse fixture, I'll be concerned.

Neil3030

Next game, Ringrose, Te'o, VDF, McGrath, Molony, Tracey, Isa, Ferg etc come back into the team. I doubt tonight will have any meaning going forward.

jacothelad

Clegg wrote: »

36 points conceded in the second half with none scored in return.

Players should be ashamed of themselves dead rubber or no.

Buer wrote: »

Will Oyonnax?

Oyonnax didn't win the ERC 3 times, get to the semi finals last year, be deemed the best European Rugby team in Europe over quite a few years and don't supply 70%+ of the French national side. The majority of that Leinster team know what it's like to win important games. There are no duffers in that side. Nearly every player is a current Irish International or one that has been capped in recent years. That team today wasn't wildly far off a reasonable Leinster starting 23. The Oyonnax team were pretty much their seconds I assume. Oyonnax were probably relieved it was only 56. The Leinster players will be horrified.

As far as I can see, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitz, Dave Kearney, Sexton, Reddan, Ruddock, Heaslip, Toner, V.D.F., Cronin/Strauss, McGrath and Moore are either Ireland starters or next up. I hope Ireland put up a better showing because of that list, McGrath, Moore, Cronin/Strauss, Toner, Heaslip, Ruddock, Reddan, Fitz, D.K. and R.K. are pretty much nailed on for Schmidt and mostly as starters. That's about two thirds of the team. You simply can't brush this defeat under the carpet by saying it doesn't matter.

Would a full strength Leinster team have fared better/ I fecking hope so or we're in trouble in the 6 Nations because the reality is, there aren't many other options and none where it hurts - in the forwards. We could probably change quite a few outside backs without much hassle but it's up front that we have few options.

Hagz

I actually couldn't be any less bothered about that result.

I am seriously worried about Sexton though. It's getting to the stage where his career is in jeopardy. In which you can forget about any 6 nations titles for a long time.

molloyjh

Good first half from Leinster. Dave Kearney is in great form and Luke looked really sharp again. Reddan was good too, but needed to be replaced sooner. I've no idea why Leo left him on for so long.

Our pack was poor. Especially our back row. Jamie did what he could but Ryan and Murphy simply weren't up to it. The selection there was found wanting. Our maul was a farce and yet we kept engaging them there 5m out. Why? That made no sense. Noel Reid is a non-entity in defence. Was at sea a few times and wasn't exactly dominant in the tackle. And going forward he just isn't big enough. At Pro12 level he looks good but he struggled today. Again, like Reddan, he should not have been left on that long.

The result was irrelevant. Who cares that we lost? But in fairness the manner and severity of the loss is an issue. Another record loss, the second of the season. I'm sorry but that just isn't acceptable from a side like Leinster. And they deserve to be questioned about that. You shouldn't just wipe a record loss under the carpet like it didn't happen.

molloyjh

Good first half from Leinster. Dave Kearney is in great form and Luke looked really sharp again. Reddan was good too, but needed to be replaced sooner. I've no idea why Leo left him on for so long.

Our pack was poor. Especially our back row. Jamie did what he could but Ryan and Murphy simply weren't up to it. The selection there was found wanting. Our maul was a farce and yet we kept engaging them there 5m out. Why? That made no sense. Noel Reid is a non-entity in defence. Was at sea a few times and wasn't exactly dominant in the tackle. And going forward he just isn't big enough. At Pro12 level he looks good but he struggled today. Again, like Reddan, he should not have been left on that long.

The result was irrelevant. Who cares that we lost? But in fairness the manner and severity of the loss is an issue. Another record loss, the second of the season. I'm sorry but that just isn't acceptable from a side like Leinster. And they deserve to be questioned about that. You shouldn't just wipe a record loss under the carpet like it didn't happen.

ThisRegard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's not a cop out. It was a dead rubber and we lost our captain and out half in the first quarter. The players themselves said the game was meaningless before (Sexton said it).

I'd much rather they play for themselves and the fans in games where there is something on the line.

Just seems like people being reactionary for the sake of it really. If we play like that in a game that matters, which we did in the reverse fixture, I'll be concerned.

I'm one of the last people on this forum to be reactionary for a good reason, never mind for the sake of it.

I see no problem with being concerned that such a performance is acceptable no matter how meaningful the game, particularly when the team is a professional one. You'd hardly expect a bunch of hungover lads on a Sunday morning to play with that mindset.

Neil3030

My one concern (which I extend to all provinces) is the general lack of pace. How many of Wasps' tries resulted form guys just stepping on the gas from far out the field? Daly's try in particular.

Every team worth their salt outside of Ireland has pace in its backline, albeit usually imported. That our (as in, Irish) fastest players are probably Earls, Bowe or Gilroy really tells the story. We need to start shopping in this department.

Neil3030

My one concern (which I extend to all provinces) is the general lack of pace. How many of Wasps' tries resulted form guys just stepping on the gas from far out the field? Daly's try in particular.

Every team worth their salt outside of Ireland has pace in its backline, albeit usually imported. That our (as in, Irish) fastest players are probably Earls, Bowe or Gilroy really tells the story. We need to start shopping in this department.

Buer

It was a poor performance, particularly in the second half. We were right in it at half time. We were completely out-thought up front and our starting flankers, as I suspected, have no business playing at this level on their current form. Ruddock is not a lock any day of the week.

I do think people are completely ignoring the fact that Wasps are a very good team just like it was glossed over last week that Bath were very poor.

With that said, the heads went down and the fight went out of them after 50 minutes. The players knew the race was run and they pretty much ambled around the field after that.

I do hold them accountable for such a poor response but there's absolutely no way people can read so much into it given the reality of what was at stake.

As per usual, the reactions here are completely knee jerk. Last week it was all about how the future is safe, what an academy, superb performance and this week it's about how we're back to where we were 2 months ago, this is a disaster and the players should be ashamed.

Just as the former wasn't true last week, the latter isn't this week. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We're an ok side. Nothing special and got our arses handed to us in a dead rubber game. I wish we had maintained a more professional performance when things started going wrong but, to be honest, the game was done the moment Sexton went off.

Sean Kinsella

molloyjh wrote: »

. Noel Reid is a non-entity in defence. Was at sea a few times and wasn't exactly dominant in the tackle. And going forward he just isn't big enough. At Pro12 level he looks good but he struggled today. Again, like Reddan, he should not have been left on that long.

The result was irrelevant. Who cares that we lost? But in fairness the manner and severity of the loss is an issue. Another record loss, the second of the season. I'm sorry but that just isn't acceptable from a side like Leinster. And they deserve to be questioned about that. You shouldn't just wipe a record loss under the carpet like it didn't happen.

I've never rated Reid and I hope the club are concerned at the manner of defeat today; something wrong if not.

jacothelad

We don't seem to produce many really fast players. The two quickest - afaik - at Ulster are Nelson and Olding. Trimble and Gilroy aren't slow either. A really fit Zebo is quick, as is Earls and Healy is lightning but limited in other areas.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

It was a poor performance, particularly in the second half. We were right in it at half time. We were completely out-thought up front and our starting flankers, as I suspected, have no business playing at this level on their current form. Ruddock is not a lock any day of the week.

I do think people are completely ignoring the fact that Wasps are a very good team just like it was glossed over last week that Bath were very poor.

With that said, the heads went down and the fight went out of them after 50 minutes. The players knew the race was run and they pretty much ambled around the field after that.

I do hold them accountable for such a poor response but there's absolutely no way people can read so much into it given the reality of what was at stake.

As per usual, the reactions here are completely knee jerk. Last week it was all about how the future is safe, what an academy, superb performance and this week it's about how we're back to where we were 2 months ago, this is a disaster and the players should be ashamed.

Just as the former wasn't true last week, the latter isn't this week. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We're an ok side. Nothing special and got our arses handed to us in a dead rubber game. I wish we had maintained a more professional performance when things started going wrong but, to be honest, the game was done the moment Sexton went off.

Are "ok" and "nothing special" really accurate terms to describe this squad? We contributed literally half the entire Irish six nations squad, most of our pack is first choice in their positions for Ireland and if not they arent far off, and there are Lions quality players all over the field. The best team we have is certainly European cup winning quality and our depth is very good by most standards, I would not regard the squad we have as nothing special. I think the fact we were spoiled by an absolutely phenomenal team a couple of years ago didnt raise expectations to an impossible level, but instead lessened expectations when that really shouldnt be the case

funtime93

So in two matches with wasps the aggregate score has been 84-16. That's shocking, and wasps aren't even a top side in England. Midtable at best IMO

ThisRegard

If fairness I don't think there have been over the top reactions in terms of omg Leinster are never going to win a game again.

I said at the outset I've no problem with a defeat, it's the manner of it and why fans, the players or Cullen would be OK with it purely because the game meant nothing.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

Are "ok" and "nothing special" really accurate terms to describe this squad? We contributed literally half the entire Irish six nations squad, most of our pack is first choice in their positions for Ireland and if not they arent far off, and there are Lions quality players all over the field. The best team we have is certainly European cup winning quality and our depth is very good by most standards, I would not regard the squad we have as nothing special. I think the fact we were spoiled by an absolutely phenomenal team a couple of years ago didnt raise expectations to an impossible level, but instead lessened expectations when that really shouldnt be the case

With Sexton and Nacewa back we're close to a top class side again. Our backline really struggled without their leadership and there was noone capable of stepping into that void. We saw that again today.

I do feel that our recent huge success and the high profile of our players actually contributes more to days like today as well. It'd be very difficult for a Lion/International to motivate themselves to play away from home in a dead rubber with the 6 Nations up next.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

Are "ok" and "nothing special" really accurate terms to describe this squad? We contributed literally half the entire Irish six nations squad, most of our pack is first choice in their positions for Ireland and if not they arent far off, and there are Lions quality players all over the field. The best team we have is certainly European cup winning quality and our depth is very good by most standards, I would not regard the squad we have as nothing special. I think the fact we were spoiled by an absolutely phenomenal team a couple of years ago didnt raise expectations to an impossible level, but instead lessened expectations when that really shouldnt be the case

Top class players do not equate to a top class side. We are potentially a top class side but not this season. We don't have a top class coaching team, which is the biggest gap. We've a squad that is massively impacted by national selection to a greater extent it wasn't when Schmidt was at Leinster also.

I also think the playing personnel, whilst potentially top class, isn't at the level it was. Heaslip is Ireland's best ever No. 8 but he's 32 and has played a crazy amount of rugby. Kearney is 30 and has a decade of rugby under his belt along with a long injury history. Sexton's injury woes are probably never going to fully go away at this point and I'd be shocked if he saw out his current contract. Cian Healy is a shadow of what he was 3 years ago. Most importantly, we've lost a huge amount of leadership within the camp over the past 18 months. BOD, Cullen, Jennings and McLaughlin...all Leinster captains are gone. Throw in D'Arcy too and we're down a lot of experience there.

I could go on regarding the standard of the personnel but there has been a drop there and we need to realise that we're not going to be winning European silverware any time soon.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

It was a poor performance, particularly in the second half. We were right in it at half time. We were completely out-thought up front and our starting flankers, as I suspected, have no business playing at this level on their current form. Ruddock is not a lock any day of the week.

I do think people are completely ignoring the fact that Wasps are a very good team just like it was glossed over last week that Bath were very poor.

With that said, the heads went down and the fight went out of them after 50 minutes. The players knew the race was run and they pretty much ambled around the field after that.

I do hold them accountable for such a poor response but there's absolutely no way people can read so much into it given the reality of what was at stake.

As per usual, the reactions here are completely knee jerk. Last week it was all about how the future is safe, what an academy, superb performance and this week it's about how we're back to where we were 2 months ago, this is a disaster and the players should be ashamed.

Just as the former wasn't true last week, the latter isn't this week. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We're an ok side. Nothing special and got our arses handed to us in a dead rubber game. I wish we had maintained a more professional performance when things started going wrong but, to be honest, the game was done the moment Sexton went off.

Pretty much agree with most of this. The loss of Sexton was enormous. Marsh was ok, but wasn't the controlling presence we needed. Which we shouldn't be surprised about. I'm still surprised Mads wasn't in the 23 at all given his lack of game time.

It should be remembered that we were actually pretty good in the first half. We had guys coming onto the ball at pace and got ourselves into a few good scoring positions. A lot of 50/50 stuff like the bounce of the ball didn't go our way and even that missed knock on in the second half was the difference between good field position for us and good field position for Wasps. The penalty try was the killing blow and we were on the plane from then on. Given the mi and match type squad we had out there that first half was very positive I thought.

That was absolutely ****e. Must be Leinster's worst Euro defeat ever? Fairly disgusted I have to say.

errlloyd

Luckily a lot of tonight's average performers will be busy for the next few weeks.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Top class players do not equate to a top class side. We are potentially a top class side but not this season. We don't have a top class coaching team, which is the biggest gap. We've a squad that is massively impacted by national selection to a greater extent it wasn't when Schmidt was at Leinster also.

I also think the playing personnel, whilst potentially top class, isn't at the level it was. Heaslip is Ireland's best ever No. 8 but he's 32 and has played a crazy amount of rugby. Kearney is 30 and has a decade of rugby under his belt along with a long injury history. Sexton's injury woes are probably never going to fully go away at this point and I'd be shocked if he saw out his current contract. Cian Healy is a shadow of what he was 3 years ago. Most importantly, we've lost a huge amount of leadership within the camp over the past 18 months. BOD, Cullen, Jennings and McLaughlin...all Leinster captains are gone. Throw in D'Arcy too and we're down a lot of experience there.

I could go on regarding the standard of the personnel but there has been a drop there and we need to realise that we're not going to be winning European silverware any time soon.

Agree with this. Leinster may have a lot of depth but these guys coming through are mostly just good solid players rather than exceptional players.

This, combined with the fact that your exceptional players aren't really that exceptional any more means standards are going to drop.

However, I don't think it really excuses that sort of scoreline today. Yea it was a nothing match, but there's a difference between losing a nothing match by 10-15 points and losing it by over 40 points.

Billysays no

irishbucsfan wrote: »

With Sexton and Nacewa back we're close to a top class side again. Our backline really struggled without their leadership and there was noone capable of stepping into that void. We saw that again today.

I do feel that our recent huge success and the high profile of our players actually contributes more to days like today as well. It'd be very difficult for a Lion/International to motivate themselves to play away from home in a dead rubber with the 6 Nations up next.

Totally agree with this viewpoint. On that basis why would you pick a team that simply was utterly dull. Why not change it up a bit rather than play so many players out of position. Yes, it was a dead rubber for Leinster but all the more opportunity to test players. Just thought it was an utter waste of 80 minutes for leinster. Nothing to learn.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It'd be very difficult for a Lion/International to motivate themselves to play away from home in a dead rubber with the 6 Nations up next.

They have to play for their spot in the 6Ns - surely that would motivate them? There are viable options nearly everywhere from 6-15.

irishbucsfan

Billysays no wrote: »

Totally agree with this viewpoint. On that basis why would you pick a team that simply was utterly dull. Why not change it up a bit rather than play so many players out of position. Yes, it was a dead rubber for Leinster but all the more opportunity to test players. Just thought it was an utter waste of 80 minutes for leinster. Nothing to learn.

Well we did switch it up last week.

I think the answer to that question is that the guys who we would use to switch it up (Moloney, Ringrose, Tracy, McGrath, Marsh etc) are all about to be playing consistently for us during the 6 Nations period and so this game was probably the best opportunity to give them a break before that period.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

Top class players do not equate to a top class side. We are potentially a top class side but not this season. We don't have a top class coaching team, which is the biggest gap. We've a squad that is massively impacted by national selection to a greater extent it wasn't when Schmidt was at Leinster also.

I also think the playing personnel, whilst potentially top class, isn't at the level it was. Heaslip is Ireland's best ever No. 8 but he's 32 and has played a crazy amount of rugby. Kearney is 30 and has a decade of rugby under his belt along with a long injury history. Sexton's injury woes are probably never going to fully go away at this point and I'd be shocked if he saw out his current contract. Cian Healy is a shadow of what he was 3 years ago. Most importantly, we've lost a huge amount of leadership within the camp over the past 18 months. BOD, Cullen, Jennings and McLaughlin...all Leinster captains are gone. Throw in D'Arcy too and we're down a lot of experience there.

I could go on regarding the standard of the personnel but there has been a drop there and we need to realise that we're not going to be winning European silverware any time soon.

Well this is kind of my point, it's not a patch on the team we had a couple of years ago, but that was a once in a lifetime team, you can't expect wall to wall great players in their prime in most positions, and most if not all teams in Europe don't have that, but we are certainly better than ok and capable of challenging in Europe. There is quality throughout the squad, Henshaw would be handy though...

wp_rathead

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I do feel that our recent huge success and the high profile of our players actually contributes more to days like today as well. It'd be very difficult for a Lion/International to motivate themselves to play away from home in a dead rubber with the 6 Nations up next.

You can't honestly believe that?

Tim Robbins

One thing I thought was good tonight was that it was a test for players like Reid and Marsh in terms of the level they need to be at it to make it as a top pro. You don't learn that from Leinster - A games, even some of the pro 12 matches can be deceptive.

Similarly, it should be clear that Fitz is a better winger than 13.

Cullen has a better idea where more of his squad are at now.

KingBrian2

Leinster let it slip this season. The only positive was beating Munster aside from that pretty much in the doldrums also have to say Madigan was not playing he was Leinster's best kicker. If he goes we are in big trouble which he is so we need to get another big kicker. Connacht don't have a kicker that is why they end up losing a lot while up in Ulster Jackson is an excellent kicker.

Buer

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Leinster let it slip this season. The only positive was beating Munster aside from that pretty much in the doldrums also have to say Madigan was not playing he was Leinster's best kicker. If he goes we are in big trouble which he is so we need to get another big kicker. Connacht don't have a kicker that is why they end up losing a lot while up in Ulster Jackson is an excellent kicker.

Whilst I'm not concerned about the goalkicking, hugely, I am concerned about having any outhalf. Sexton's days are numbered, I feel. He took another knock to the head tonight and he cannot take many more. I would think another one or two (which are almost inevitable) and he'll have the decision taken from his hands and have to retire from the game.

ArmchairQB

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Leinster let it slip this season. The only positive was beating Munster aside from that pretty much in the doldrums also have to say Madigan was not playing he was Leinster's best kicker. If he goes we are in big trouble which he is so we need to get another big kicker. Connacht don't have a kicker that is why they end up losing a lot while up in Ulster Jackson is an excellent kicker.

Ross Byrne coming thru is an excellent kicker as is Ringrose far better than Madigan at same stage of development

Timothy Bryce

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Ross Byrne coming thru is an excellent kicker as is Ringrose far better than Madigan at same stage of development

I read during the week somewhere (tweet machine probably) that Ross Byrne broke his ankle on Monday.

ArmchairQB

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

I read during the week somewhere (tweet machine probably) that Ross Byrne broke his ankle on Monday.

Heard he got an injury during the week but didn't realise it was that serious. That's a big blow for him if true as might have had a few decent opportunities during 6 nations

CatFromHue

Buer wrote: »

Whilst I'm not concerned about the goalkicking, hugely, I am concerned about having any outhalf. Sexton's days are numbered, I feel. He took another knock to the head tonight and he cannot take many more. I would think another one or two (which are almost inevitable) and he'll have the decision taken from his hands and have to retire from the game.

Kev McL retired not from concussion related injuries but because he'd enough that he would just start getting them easier and easier.

thomond2006

Having Marsh at 10 for 70 minutes is not ideal but really....51-10?!