Fine Girl Party 'uncomfortable' with the Irish Military

dandyelevan

We have an ex Prime Minister of this State John Bruton (FG) today telling us he is 'uncomfortable' with members of our Defense Forces attending Schools bearing copies of the Proclamation and the National Flag.
Uncomfortable, mind you!

Two short years ago we had the present Prime Minister Enda Kenny (FG) (while temporarily holding the Ministry of Defense Portfolio) saying he was 'embarrassed' by soldiers attending Church in uniform (or some such bull****)
In the whole Defense Portfolio, this was the ONLY thing that upset him!

Only in good ole Ireland could both these idiots get away with such public disrespect, and their idiotic views pandered to by a willing Media, without question.


Now, I don't venture into political business or debates, ever... because I know eff-all about the subject, and maybe this isn't the forum for this post, but as a retired soldier of 30 years service, I won't be voting FG, lest I embarrass them further.

I would urge all serving personnel to do likewise, because to the "Fine Girl" Party, it seems your military Service is an embarrassment.

I look fwd to the FG canvassers calling !:D

Amirani

I have the upmost respect for the Irish military, but I too disagree with the 1916 proposals. People are trying to turn it into something that it wasn't, it should remembered but not celebrated. It was not a war of independence that had popular support.

The Irish military had no involvement in 1916. Sending them to classrooms to teach kids about it just stinks of an attempt at jingoistic nationalism.

syklops

dandyelevan wrote: »

We have an ex Prime Minister of this State John Bruton (FG) today telling us he is 'uncomfortable' with members of our Defense Forces attending Schools bearing copies of the Proclamation and the National Flag.
Uncomfortable, mind you!

Source please?

dandyelevan wrote: »

Two short years ago we had the present Prime Minister Enda Kenny (FG) (while temporarily holding the Ministry of Defense Portfolio) saying he was 'embarrassed' by soldiers attending Church in uniform (or some such bull****)
In the whole Defense Portfolio, this was the ONLY thing that upset him!

Source for this please?

Also, in Ireland we don't have a Prime Minister, we have a Taoiseach. I'd have thought a former soldier would know that.

dandyelevan

Todays Indo.
PM will do me just fine. You know well what I mean.

dandyelevan

Todays Indo.
PM will do me just fine. You know well what I mean.

riffmongous

In fairness, I am sure everything about the 1916 celebrations makes Bruton uncomfortable

myshirt

I think he has a point there.... it is An Taoiseach... not Prime Minister.
I don't think the terms are interchangeable at all at all. It is An Taoiseach.

tayto lover

If the term "Prime Minister" upsets Enda then I have not heard him correct any of the European leaders for not using "Taoiseach". Then he gets his hair ruffled so maybe he doesn't mind.

syklops

tayto lover wrote: »

If the term "Prime Minister" upsets Enda then I have not heard him correct any of the European leaders for not using "Taoiseach". Then he gets his hair ruffled so maybe he doesn't mind.

:rolleyes:

tayto lover

syklops wrote: »

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

tac foley

Sadly, the Republic of Ireland is an English-speaking country with a minority Irish-speaking population, not the other way around. It would be wonderful indeed if it was to be the other way around, but it isn't, and probably never will be, in spite of all the efforts to make it so.

Over here in mainland UK, newsreaders make valiant efforts to pronounce the Irish title correctly, but mostly call the post Prime Minister. I recall one actually saying '...the Irish Taoiseach, Prime Minister so-and-so......................'

tac

tayto lover

Who better than a soldier to explain the intricacies and tactics of the rising to school children anyway. I don't see the argument against that at all.

a/tel

tac foley wrote: »

Sadly, the Republic of Ireland is an English-speaking country with a minority Irish-speaking population, not the other way around. It would be wonderful indeed if it was to be the other way around, but it isn't, and probably never will be, in spite of all the efforts to make it so.

Over here in mainland UK, newsreaders make valiant efforts to pronounce the Irish title correctly, but mostly call the post Prime Minister. I recall one actually saying '...the Irish Taoiseach, Prime Minister so-and-so......................'

tac

I have heard both Barack Obama and David Cameron call his Taoiseach so if they can make the effort!. You are correct in what you say ref the language, but lets try and hold onto what of it we have left of it. Its part of our identity.

Pat Dunne

tac foley wrote: »

Over here in mainland UK,
tac

Mainland to where?

Junkyard Tom

Amirani wrote: »

It was not a war of independence that had popular support.

Please explain to me how popular support can be assessed in a colony where a male only 30% of the population could vote even if they were granted such an altruistic gesture *spit* from their occupiers.

The British and their apologists in Ireland have no moral authority to cite democracy when it comes to the 1916 rising. None. Nada. Zilch.

Custardpi

Haven't heard of this "Fine Girl" party before but they sound interesting. What's their platform exactly? Are they merely representatives of the already aesthetically pleasing female population or do they also seek to improve the beauty standards generally of Mná na hÉireann?

pablomakaveli

I dont see any issue with soldiers going to schools for that reason. The DF's legacy came from the guys who fought in the Rising and the War of Independence after so it's not inappropriate. No harm in getting kids interested in our history either.

MRnotlob606

I think Bruton would feel more at home with her majesties forces.

padd b1975

30 years in uniform, and never managed to learn how to spell defence.

Pretty much sums up the Irish Army.....

BoJack Horseman

dandyelevan wrote: »

We have an ex Prime Minister of this State John Bruton (FG) today telling us he is 'uncomfortable' with members of our Defense Forces attending Schools bearing copies of the Proclamation and the National Flag.
Uncomfortable, mind you!

If anyone is interested here is the quote:

"I was a little uncomfortable with the idea that Army officers should be invited to visit schools to talk about a document prepared by a small group of people which initiated a campaign that involved violence…which, to put it at its least, was not supported by the majority of the people at the time it was undertaken.....
I think it is a role of politicians, if they want to do this, or if others want to go and explain the Proclamation.
“I think the Army, because it is a non-political force, should be kept separate from anything that has any colour of political advocacy.’’

dandyelevan wrote: »

Two short years ago we had the present Prime Minister Enda Kenny (FG) (while temporarily holding the Ministry of Defense Portfolio) saying he was 'embarrassed' by soldiers attending Church in uniform (or some such bull****)
In the whole Defense Portfolio, this was the ONLY thing that upset him!

Can't find anything for this one.... which is a shame.
Perhaps the OP can come back and amend his post?

If only threads required this basic level of research!

discus

padd b1975 wrote: »

30 years in uniform, and never managed to learn how to spell defence.

Pretty much sums up the Irish Army.....

Many years posting on military forums, and never managed to actually serve in uniform.

Pretty much sums up half you lads on this forum....

Also, in Ireland we don't have a Prime Minister, we have a Taoiseach. I'd have thought a former soldier would know that.

Oooohhh check out this edgy lad! It's pretty safe to call the Taoiseach a prime minister, as his function is near identical.

riffmongous

Amirani wrote: »

I have the upmost respect for the Irish military, but I too disagree with the 1916 proposals. People are trying to turn it into something that it wasn't, it should remembered but not celebrated. It was not a war of independence that had popular support.

The Irish military had no involvement in 1916. Sending them to classrooms to teach kids about it just stinks of an attempt at jingoistic nationalism.

You know the army commemorates the Rising every other year too right? While the army might not have any 'continuity', as one of the few groups that actually serves the State rather than their own back pocket, they are a far better choice than politicians to be representing the Proclamation.

Manach

Personally, I found the state of FG's regard of the Irish Military nicely summed up by their policitally driven pardoning of those who deserted said army during the Emergency.

davetherave

Constitution of Ireland:
Article 28.5.1 The head of the Government, or Prime Minister, shall be called, and is in this Constitution referred to as, the Taoiseach.

The Constitution acknowledges he is a Prime Minister. That is good enough for me. Tell Johnny Foreigner that Enda is the prime minister and they will know what you mean, tell them that he is An "Tea Shock" and they won't have a breeze.



Religious Mumbo Jumbo from Dail Debates here

Also, arising from the review, which included a consultative process between Departmental officials and Defence Forces personnel, a decision was made to remove the Military ceremonial elements from the Church on the basis that it is no longer considered appropriate that Military personnel would be requested to perform such a role in a religious ceremony. Instead, all military ceremonial functions were carried out to the full outside the Church and at the graveside in Arbour Hill Cemetery.
The decision to remove the Military ceremonial elements from the church was taken to reflect the changes that have taken place in Ireland, North and South and the importance of emphasising tolerance and a welcome for all nationalities and creeds. In this context it is no longer considered appropriate that the Defence Forces, an important institution of the State, should be requested to perform such a role in a religious ceremony.
I believe that these changes have ensured that the annual 1916 Arbour Hill Commemoration is a more inclusive event.

So Bruton is uncomfortable with Army Officers being invited to schools? He doesn't seem to recognise or acknowledge the enlisted ranks bods that also go to the schools? Maybe he sees it as below that of an officer to go to?

IrishTrajan

tac foley wrote: »

Sadly, the Republic of Ireland is an English-speaking country with a minority Irish-speaking population, not the other way around. It would be wonderful indeed if it was to be the other way around, but it isn't, and probably never will be, in spite of all the efforts to make it so.

I agree with you, but I've still not heard any Irish person in Dublin call him the Prime Minister. It's still the Taoiseach.

tac foley wrote: »

Over here in mainland UK, newsreaders make valiant efforts to pronounce the Irish title correctly, but mostly call the post Prime Minister. I recall one actually saying '...the Irish Taoiseach, Prime Minister so-and-so......................'

I have to admire Piers Morgan for at least trying to pronounce it correctly - even if I don't like him.

Topper Harley

Amirani wrote: »

The Irish military had no involvement in 1916. Sending them to classrooms to teach kids about it just stinks of an attempt at jingoistic nationalism.

The Defence Forces originated as the Irish Volunteers which was founded in 1913. These are the very people who took part in the Rising in 1916. The button's on the Army's uniforms still have the letters I V on either side of a harp in recognition of their Irish Volunteer roots.

And I'd much rather see the Defence Forces take an active and visible role in remembering the Rising rather than letting some other less desirable factions capitalise on it for their own nefarious purposes.

johal

i have seen this military salute many times and i always saw it as very strange and not belonging in a church, for those of you that never saw it. 5 or 6 officers march up the church with swords drawn, line up in front of the alter then wave their swords to the right with their heads turning following the tip of the sword ,all done with military orders and then march off. it should never be allowed in the first place well done fine gale

Topper Harley

johal wrote: »

i have seen this military salute many times and i always saw it as very strange and not belonging in a church, for those of you that never saw it. 5 or 6 officers march up the church with swords drawn, line up in front of the alter then wave their swords to the right with their heads turning following the tip of the sword ,all done with military orders and then march off. it should never be allowed in the first place well done fine gale

Why shouldn't it be allowed? I assume when you saw this happening there was a military aspect to the mass?

Subcomandante Marcos

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I dont see any issue with soldiers going to schools for that reason. The DF's legacy came from the guys who fought in the Rising and the War of Independence after so it's not inappropriate. No harm in getting kids interested in our history either.

It's a rare moment I'd agree with you but this is one.

Dyr

Fine Gael have a shown a real grá of late for adopting the trappings of the american republican party and this was just another example of that. Silly jingoistic carry on that should be left to the yanks.

The carry on of the civil war made sure that nobody can now claim lineage to the Irish Volunteers/IRB.

johal

it just looks stupid , marching and swinging swords in a church as part of the mass. yes it was in a barracks church

Topper Harley

johal wrote: »

it just looks stupid , marching and swinging swords in a church as part of the mass. yes it was in a barracks church

In your opinion...I'm sure others disagree. Of course, if you're so opposed to it why not just attend a different church, perhaps one outside of a military barracks.

Topper Harley

Bambi wrote: »

The carry on of the civil war made sure that nobody can now claim lineage to the Irish Volunteers/IRB.

Why not?

Dyr

Topper Harley wrote: »

Why not?

Because the IRA mostly rejected the treaty and fell apart after the civil war while the Free State Army was mainly comprised of ex british army servicemen who had never been in the IRA/IRB

johal

we had no choice but were marched to these masses. did you ever see or take part in it . if you saw it for yourself you could judge it or you just another armchair expert

Topper Harley

johal wrote: »

we had no choice but were marched to these masses. did you ever see or take part in it . if you saw it for yourself you could judge it or you just another armchair expert

I've seen it and judged it for myself. Who exactly gave you no choice and marched you to these masses? I'm assuming a parent. Did you make your feelings known to them?

Topper Harley

Bambi wrote: »

Because the IRA mostly rejected the treaty and fell apart after the civil war while the Free State Army was mainly comprised of ex british army servicemen who had never been in the IRA/IRB

There were more IRA on the anti-treaty side than the pro-treaty side and when the National Army expanded during the Civil War, it had considerably more members with previous British Army service than IRA service but there were still many ex-IRA men, including Michael Collins, in the National Army, so I'm happy to accept the National Army's and therefore the Defence Forces claim of lineage to the Irish Volunteers/IRB. But I understand that not everyone will share my view.

johal

with regard to some of the ira units in the civil war many joined up to fight the free state army but would not fight the british army. many IRA units in parts of ireland that carried out no attacks against the british became very active in the civil war. if you look at a map and compare the activity of both conflicts this becomes very clear. the ex british soldiers in the free state army were poorly regarded by the ira who joined the free state army and were most if not all the officers.

johal

if you knew anything about the army you would know about mass parades
i did 21 years in pdf . and you?

Topper Harley

johal wrote: »

if you knew anything about the army you would know about mass parades
i did 21 years in pdf . and you?

Do they still do mass parades?

johal

i dont know i left a few years ago.

uck51js9zml2yt

Topper Harley wrote: »

Do they still do mass parades?

Yes they do.
Should be stopped particularly with a significant number of non RCs in the ranks.
Friends of mine refused to take part in them 30_years ago. After the usual disciplinaries they progressed to become senior officers.

I've no problem with the army doing the flag presentations. It was quiet an affair in my sons school having his uncles friends turn up:)

Topper Harley

Azariah Rough Pie wrote: »

Yes they do.
Should be stopped particularly with a significant number of non RCs in the ranks.
Friends of mine refused to take part in them 30_years ago. After the usual disciplinaries they progressed to become senior officers.

I'm unfamiliar with most barracks' so can you explain to me how, where, when and for who it takes place. Since I don't know the details yet, it might be a bit premature for me to say but I'm inclined to agree that should be stopped.

However, I don't think that it's inappropriate for a bit of ceremonial sword drill to take place in a church within a barracks.

delly

This presentation recently happened in my daughters school and it was a very effective ceremony. She spoke at how impressive the personal looked and how they happily took questions from the students.

The school is multi denominational, so has no religious ceremony or practices. Personally speaking as a parent, I am more than happy to have an inspiring ceremony involving the Defence Forces in the school. It is certainly one organisation that I would see as having a honourable reputation. I don't think we can say the same for the church, but that's a point for a different day.

twinytwo

Amirani wrote: »

I have the upmost respect for the Irish military, but I too disagree with the 1916 proposals. People are trying to turn it into something that it wasn't, it should remembered but not celebrated. It was not a war of independence that had popular support.

The Irish military had no involvement in 1916. Sending them to classrooms to teach kids about it just stinks of an attempt at jingoistic nationalism.

The 1916 promclimation is single handedly one of, if not the most important document every composed in this country. Yes the rising was not as defining as in nature as the signing of the treaty or maybe even as the execution of connolly but it was the start of a major turning point in the history of this country....and should be celebrated as such.

But then anything in this country that is to do with nationalism is usually shunned by most... god forbid we take pride in our heritage in case we offend someone

tac foley

Bambi wrote: »

Because the IRA mostly rejected the treaty and fell apart after the civil war while the Free State Army was mainly comprised of ex british army servicemen who had never been in the IRA/IRB

My dad was in the Free State Army, having been freed at the signing of the Truce from a fourteen-year jail sentence for carrying out explosive alterations to one of His Majesty's police barracks.

HE was born in Geraldine Place, just off the Quays in Cork City, and was definitely not any kind of a British Army ex-serviceman, bearing in mind that until the split, ALL Irishmen in the British Army were classed as British subjects.

His older brother chose to follow the devices and desires of Mr DeValera instead, and they spent a couple of hard years trying not to see each other.

tac

johal

tac
did you ever look up the wittnes statements in the military archives in military.ie.
your dad may have given his report or others may have included him in theirs and you can see what actions he took part in. its a fantastic record of the war .

tac foley

Nossir, I never did, and to tell the truth this is because I never knew such records existed. When you live 6500 miles away this kind of thing tends to get overlooked.

Thanks for the tip - I can see some reading coming on!

Best

tac

mikeym

dandyelevan wrote: »

We have an ex Prime Minister of this State John Bruton (FG) today telling us he is 'uncomfortable' with members of our Defense Forces attending Schools bearing copies of the Proclamation and the National Flag.
Uncomfortable, mind you!

Two short years ago we had the present Prime Minister Enda Kenny (FG) (while temporarily holding the Ministry of Defense Portfolio) saying he was 'embarrassed' by soldiers attending Church in uniform (or some such bull****)
In the whole Defense Portfolio, this was the ONLY thing that upset him!

Only in good ole Ireland could both these idiots get away with such public disrespect, and their idiotic views pandered to by a willing Media, without question.


Now, I don't venture into political business or debates, ever... because I know eff-all about the subject, and maybe this isn't the forum for this post, but as a retired soldier of 30 years service, I won't be voting FG, lest I embarrass them further.

I would urge all serving personnel to do likewise, because to the "Fine Girl" Party, it seems your military Service is an embarrassment.

I look fwd to the FG canvassers calling !:D

Fine Gael have been very good to the Naval Service.

Simon Coveney has a big interest in the Navy and money has been set aside to develop Haulbowline and new ships have been built.

Imo hes the best Defence Minister the Navy has had so far.


And this is coming from someone who doesnt like Fine Gael.

Ren2k7

Bambi wrote: »

Fine Gael have a shown a real grá of late for adopting the trappings of the american republican party and this was just another example of that. Silly jingoistic carry on that should be left to the yanks.

The carry on of the civil war made sure that nobody can now claim lineage to the Irish Volunteers/IRB.

You're joking right? Dinny Gael despise the Irish Defence Forces, they hate the fact that they're not sitting in the UK Commons and saluting the Brit forces on Poppy Day. Any talk of them claiming to be proud of our forces is pure electioneering and an attempt to show some patriotism. Same with FF and Labour.

And to those who feel the Rising isn't worth celebrating may I remind you many countries have large bombastic celebrations for their own wars of independence. The Americans do it right and we should follow their lead. If people are embarrassed by our revolution that saw us achieve freedom then they're more than welcome to hop on the next flight to London. Ireland could do with shedding itself of these Blueshirt traitors.

BoatMad

Ren2k7 wrote: »

You're joking right? Dinny Gael despise the Irish Defence Forces, they hate the fact that they're not sitting in the UK Commons and saluting the Brit forces on Poppy Day. Any talk of them claiming to be proud of our forces is pure electioneering and an attempt to show some patriotism. Same with FF and Labour.

And to those who feel the Rising isn't worth celebrating may I remind you many countries have large bombastic celebrations for their own wars of independence. The Americans do it right and we should follow their lead. If people are embarrassed by our revolution that saw us achieve freedom then they're more than welcome to hop on the next flight to London. Ireland could do with shedding itself of these Blueshirt traitors.

yes but the Americans beat the British in open combat. we just went to london and signed a poor deal.