Media Article: Cash sweeteners to get elderly couples to sell family homes

keane2097

Parky2 wrote: »

Drop the tomfoolery, you are not getting anywhere!

ok

keane2097

kazamo wrote: »

If that is the case why do we have agricultural relief and business relief as a way of substantially limiting this tax liability for certain wealthy people. If we introduce a rule to disadvantage the lazy, then it should apply to all.

I have no issue with inheritance tax in principle, just that the penal rates kick in quicker here than elsewhere.

In Ireland, son\daughter inherits, 500k
Threshold 280k, balance at 33% giving tax liability of 72,600.

In Germany, son\daughter inherits 500k.
Threshold 400k, 100k at 11% giving tax liability of 11,000

http://www.expatica.com/de/finance/Inheritance-tax-in-Germany_108115.html

Maybe its just my cynical attitude in thinking we have high inheritance taxes to offset the sizable assets that avail of the various reliefs or even avoid inheritance tax by purchasing assets in the children's name to start with.

I don't know the ins & outs of the farming and business relief that you're talking about so would have no particular opposition to removing them, although could be easily swayed if someone points out a sensible reason as to why they exist.

TBH it just looks to me like we have a better system for taxing unearned wealth than Germany. Happy days.

kazamo

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't know the ins & outs of the farming and business relief that you're talking about so would have no particular opposition to removing them, although could be easily swayed if someone points out a sensible reason as to why they exist.

TBH it just looks to me like we have a better system for taxing unearned wealth than Germany. Happy days.

No, we don't have a better system.
If we applied the Germany rates and thresholds then anyone who fell outside the generous business and farming reliefs would be treated in a much fairer way.

This subsidising vested interest groups for inheritance leaves it lob sided.
The better system is one that at least attempts to treat all citizens who inherit equally.

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's not a tax on the giver. It's a tax on the recipient. That's who pays.

It is very much a tax on the givers money. If you give a large sum of money to someone you know the a large portion of the will be given straight to revenue so yes you are basically taxed.

Another way to look at it, if you want to give someone 100k (so that they actually have 100k in their pocket) you have to give them 150k gross.

Inheritance tax should be totally done away with like it has been in many countries and families should be allowed to keep their money and pass it on as they please so the next generation can benefit and have a head start in life. Thank god there is relief for business and farms or it would be impossible to keep a viable farming business going due to the value of a farm on paper meaning inheritance tax would be massive and the person would most likely be unable to pay and keep the farm meaning selling part of it and thus no longer having a viable business.

The call for high inheritance tax is begrudgery and jealousy nothing more.

Eugene Norman

Parky2 wrote: »

Earth, and you?

I wrote:



Which suggest that they are certainly not opposed to these taxes.

So you think the rich are opposed to inheritance tax?

Eugene Norman

Nicholas Round Sailing wrote: »

It is very much a tax on the givers money. If you give a large sum of money to someone you know the a large portion of the will be given straight to revenue so yes you are basically taxed.

Another way to look at it, if you want to give someone 100k (so that they actually have 100k in their pocket) you have to give them 150k gross.

Inheritance tax should be totally done away with like it has been in many countries and families should be allowed to keep their money and pass it on as they please so the next generation can benefit and have a head start in life. Thank god there is relief for business and farms or it would be impossible to keep a viable farming business going due to the value of a farm on paper meaning inheritance tax would be massive and the person would most likely be unable to pay and keep the farm meaning selling part of it and thus no longer having a viable business.

So what. If I want to pay somebody 100k in his pocket for doing useful work I have to pay him 150k+. But he, not me, is paying the tax

The call for high inheritance tax is begrudgery and jealousy nothing more.

of course it's begrudgery. I certainly begrudge wastrels earning money for nothing. For having the correct parents.

Eugene Norman

kazamo wrote: »

No, we don't have a better system.
If we applied the Germany rates and thresholds then anyone who fell outside the generous business and farming reliefs would be treated in a much fairer way.

This subsidising vested interest groups for inheritance leaves it lob sided.
The better system is one that at least attempts to treat all citizens who inherit equally.

We need to stop subsidising farmers. Let the market rule. Ireland would be far more productive with fewer better run farms.

athtrasna

Mod note

Parky2 please do not post on this thread again.

Other posters are reminded to report rather then retort when provocative posts appear.

on_my_oe

My Dad has worked hard all his life - he's a team leader/ supervisor, nothing special, but he works a lot of overtime, and roughly earns anywhere median wage for Oz. He's almost 60 with another couple of years until he retires. He owns his house almost freehold - its nothing special, just benefited from price increases as lived there 25 years, he just kept chipping away at what he paid for it (including times where there was 8% interest). He has a retirement fund - he paid 3%, his employer matched it, plus some canny share investments by his pension fund. He left school at 13 for his first job, his Mum was on the social as his dad did a runner and she couldn't afford the rent. He's worked hard for everything he's got - didn't go on his first trip abroad until he was 50 when he came to visit me. Recently he updated his will and I told him not to leave me a penny, to share it amongst my siblings. My OH and I 'have worked hard ourselves so we're OK (we are in our 30s, have an apartment in a working class area brought in 2014, median wages) - similar to my siblings. I don't want the Irish government benefiting from his hard work, even if it means everything goes to my siblings. He's paid taxes all his life, never claimed the dole or anything, why should the government (especially in his case, a foreign one), get a second bite of the cherry?

The perception that inheritance tax levels the playing field between those with a silver spoon and those at the bottom is wrong - those with a silver spoon have the means and connections to afford experts to minimize taxes. Its those who worked hard and sacrificed throughout their life who get caught.

Marcusm

on_my_oe wrote: »

My Dad has worked hard all his life - he's a team leader/ supervisor, nothing special, but he works a lot of overtime, and roughly earns anywhere median wage for Oz. He's almost 60 with another couple of years until he retires. He owns his house almost freehold - its nothing special, just benefited from price increases as lived there 25 years, he just kept chipping away at what he paid for it (including times where there was 8% interest). He has a retirement fund - he paid 3%, his employer matched it, plus some canny share investments by his pension fund. He left school at 13 for his first job, his Mum was on the social as his dad did a runner and she couldn't afford the rent. He's worked hard for everything he's got - didn't go on his first trip abroad until he was 50 when he came to visit me. Recently he updated his will and I told him not to leave me a penny, to share it amongst my siblings. My OH and I 'have worked hard ourselves so we're OK (we are in our 30s, have an apartment in a working class area brought in 2014, median wages) - similar to my siblings. I don't want the Irish government benefiting from his hard work, even if it means everything goes to my siblings. He's paid taxes all his life, never claimed the dole or anything, why should the government (especially in his case, a foreign one), get a second bite of the cherry?

The perception that inheritance tax levels the playing field between those with a silver spoon and those at the bottom is wrong - those with a silver spoon have the means and connections to afford experts to minimize taxes. Its those who worked hard and sacrificed throughout their life who get caught.

By all means direct your putative inheritance to your siblings; however, there remains a quite considerable threshold amount for an inheritance from a parent (280k). I assume that you are an Australian resident in Ireland putatively inheriting from an Australian domiciled parent; had it been a little more than 10 years ago, Irish inheritance tax/CAT would not even have been ont he radar screen.

athtrasna

Mod note

Please take the inheritance tax chat over to the taxation forum. Thanks

4ensic15

Graces7 wrote: »

. A home and a neighbourhood is far more than a house. You cannot cajole or persuade an old person to leave their home as some here think they should. .

What is often happening is that people are in houses that don't suit them and are too afraid to move even within the same area or haven't got the cash flow or the stomach for all the hassle that goes with a move. If some of them can be helped to make a move that is in their best interests it is win win. Some family can get a house in that area which wouldn't have otherwise become available. The person who moved has had a cash boost and a more comfortable and manageable house.

on_my_oe

Things that might motivate me if I was older and retired;

1) No stamp duty on the new property
2) Grant towards home improvements
3) Increase in the inheritance tax threshold

Its a shame that there aren't retirement communities / villages here like in Oz (that I've seen); my godmother lives in a 2 bed bungalow which is a group of 400 homes. You can't buy there unless you are 55+, they have a community centre with daily activities, a medical clinic and a cafe onsite, there is a shuttle bus to the local mall, patrolling security and each property has an emergency alarm. She is now in her mid 70s and had two strokes, but she is well looked after, plus the property is set out in advance for any assistance she might have needed e.g. easy access bathroom, spacious kitchen etc. When she was in the wheel chair, she was still able to maintain some independence.

Graces7

on_my_oe wrote: »

Things that might motivate me if I was older and retired;

1) No stamp duty on the new property
2) Grant towards home improvements
3) Increase in the inheritance tax threshold

Its a shame that there aren't retirement communities / villages here like in Oz (that I've seen); my godmother lives in a 2 bed bungalow which is a group of 400 homes. You can't buy there unless you are 55+, they have a community centre with daily activities, a medical clinic and a cafe onsite, there is a shuttle bus to the local mall, patrolling security and each property has an emergency alarm. She is now in her mid 70s and had two strokes, but she is well looked after, plus the property is set out in advance for any assistance she might have needed e.g. easy access bathroom, spacious kitchen etc. When she was in the wheel chair, she was still able to maintain some independence.

There are such places. I know of several. Not everyone would live in them though and I certainly would not. ( I am heading for 80 at an alarming rate). No privacy .

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

Convenient theory but that is all it is. "best interests" in whose eyes? Reminds me of the story of the Boy Scout who insisted on helping an old lady cross a busy road. When they arrived she turned to him and shouted " I DID NOT WANT TO CROSS THE ROAD!" I am old and have seen many ideas like this and always they are for others convenience. and often deeply regretted by the old ones. We can be easy to steamroller..

Grace- anyone can get steam rolled- its more to do with the mindset of people- than age or any other factor. Have a look in this forum and you'll see it every single day- look at the person who has just rolled over in this thread and allowed their landlord unbridled access at 48 hours notice to allow viewings of the property they are selling.........

Some people are more forceful and better at making their intentions, feelings and motivations- known to others- than are some of their peers.

Its not an age factor- really it isn't- its a frame of mind thing.........

At the knux of the current proposal- is the manner in which the rights of the individual trump the rights of society in general. In a European context- this is a legal anomaly which is unique to The UK, Ireland and a few former UK territories (Gibralter, Malta etc etc). Were you to look at this as a French person would for example- the whole notion that one person might have rights that could trumpt the rights of their neighbours- or indeed- society in general- is an alien concept. This can manifest itself in a myriad of ways- but most visibly- in the manner in which Ireland and the UK have to perform mental mindgames when implementing EU Regulations into the laws of the respective countries- something which simply is not an issue elsewhere in Europe.........

The Article was poorly titled- the intent of the proposal may have been with the best of motivations- however, the manner in which it was phrased was always going to get people's hackles up.

We need to have a dialogue in this country covering a gamut of issues including, but not limited to-

Care of the elderly
Provision of services targeted specifically towards the elderly
Care of those with young families- and the provision of commensurate services and amenities to suit their life stages
The redesign of our health system which patently is serving no-one
Taxation which makes it exceptionally difficult for employers to financially reward employees
A lack of residential housing developments- where people want to live (and elsewhere)

We critically need to have a national debate in this country- on how we propose to balance the needs of the various groups of people in this country- versus the other side of the equation- the people who have to pay for it. At the moment- bad as it is- the balance is firmly tipped away from taxpayers- and towards a redistributive regime- contrary to what many people might imagine. We are paying for it however- with a disproportionate tax burden on an overstretched middle class.

Should inheritance tax be increased- so people don't directly pay for the social system we have during their lifetime? Should we increase the inheritance tax level instead- and give a boon to our children- at a cost to today's tax payers? Should we abolish the CGT exemption on the sale of PPRs?

There are different ways of doing this. I'd argue that if there are incentives or sweeteners available- that they at very least merit examination with an open mind- it could well be the case that it may be an opportunity missed for some people- if they simply dismiss schemes such as the proposed scheme- out of hand.

Living Off The Splash

Well I just got on with my life from when I purchased my first house back in 1975. I didn't interfere in other people's lives. As things need doing, I got on with the job. I paid the mortgage, home improvements, taxes etc. Lived a frugal enough life.

I now have 4 empty bedrooms (house number 3) each bedroom has been paid for by me. I have good savings.

It did concern me when I read that our banks might collapse and that my savings might not be safe. There was even a situation where deposit accounts in Cyprus were raided and funds taken. It concerned me when out Government started interfering with our pensions. I am not sure that I want to sell my house and increase the funds I have on deposit as a result. Is my home now coming under scrutiny?

I am not sure who the people are that are queuing up to own my house. Who are they?

They will need a fair chunk of cash to buy my home. If they are considering this, then they also have accumulated wealth over the years. The only difference between them and me is age and the fact that they have younger children than me.

Should I move for them?

Living Off The Splash

Well I just got on with my life from when I purchased my first house back in 1975. I didn't interfere in other people's lives. As things need doing, I got on with the job. I paid the mortgage, home improvements, taxes etc. Lived a frugal enough life.

I now have 4 empty bedrooms (house number 3) each bedroom has been paid for by me. I have good savings.

It did concern me when I read that our banks might collapse and that my savings might not be safe. There was even a situation where deposit accounts in Cyprus were raided and funds taken. It concerned me when out Government started interfering with our pensions. I am not sure that I want to sell my house and increase the funds I have on deposit as a result. Is my home now coming under scrutiny?

I am not sure who the people are that are queuing up to own my house. Who are they?

They will need a fair chunk of cash to buy my home. If they are considering this, then they also have accumulated wealth over the years. The only difference between them and me is age and the fact that they have younger children than me.

Should I move for them?