Dog breeding / Male studding, Boxer

OldmanMondeo

Hopefully I am not not breaking any rules here, if I am, please delete this thread and I will accept the warning.

I'm looking to stud my Boxer out. His markings and looks are, IMO, outstanding. Great temperament as well. I would like to stud him as out last Boxer had cancer at a very early age and was unable to breed, I would love to have his bloodline live on and probably take a sibling in.

Anyway, I want to do this the right way and this is where I am stuck. I know nothing about studding out (apart from VET mentioning about Xrays for gentic defects etc) and don't want to get involved in any underhand / dodgy breeders.

If anyone can pint me in the right direct, I would be most grateful. I can't find any info on the IKC website. There doesn't seem to be any Boxer owner clubs in Ireland, that I can find.

Cherry Blossom

Hi OP,

We do not allow posts advertising studs or looking for studs. However, as you are looking for advice and appear open to receiving that advice I will allow your thread on this occasion.

OldmanMondeo

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Hi OP,

We do not allow posts advertising studs or looking for studs. However, as you are looking for advice and appear open to receiving that advice I will allow your thread on this occasion.

Thank you.

Dial Hard

The first question I'd ask anyone looking to breed is, are you currently showing your dog in conformation? We all love our own dogs (I've had 3 Boxers) but the only way to know if your dog is an outstanding example of the breed is by showing him.

I'd start there before even looking into hip and heart scoring.

the beer revolu

Dial Hard wrote: »

The first question I'd ask anyone looking to breed is, are you currently showing your dog in conformation? We all love our own dogs (I've had 3 Boxers) but the only way to know if your dog is an outstanding example of the breed is by showing him.

I'd start there before even looking into hip and heart scoring.

Why would that matter in the least if the op is interested in breeding a healthy dog with a good temperament?
Why should they care whether the pups would do well at shows as long as the health tests are done and both parents are of good temperament ?

Cherry Blossom

http://irishboxerdog.wix.com/club

http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/boxer/

How old is your dog OP? No disrespect but everyone thinks their own dog is the bee's knees. You would need to have him assessed by a breed specialist to confirm he is everything you think he is. Has he ever been shown at all? Reputable breeders would not normally consider using a dog that has not proved itself extensively in the show ring.

You would need hip and elbow scores (and only breed if they are acceptable scores). This is what the x-rays are for. The x-rays themselves and the interpretation of them which is done by the BVA in the UK are expensive. I would not breed from a boxer without doing heart tests as well. Any bitch used needs to have the same tests.

Also, do you have a medical history for the parents and grand parents of your dog? When you got him did he come from a reputable source and did you specify that you wanted a dog of suitable quality to breed from?

DBB

Dial Hard wrote: »

The first question I'd ask anyone looking to breed is, are you currently showing your dog in conformation? We all love our own dogs (I've had 3 Boxers) but the only way to know if your dog is an outstanding example of the breed is by showing him.

Can I throw a spanner in the works here?

German Shepherds.

There. I said it.

I am not as familiar with other breeds, but I suspect that just because a dog has won in shows, it does not necessarily automatically follow that it's a good example of its breed, or that it is functional, or that it won't succumb to hereditary diseases at an all-too-early age (cf Boxers and cancer).
Personally, I'd prefer my vet to declare herself happy with the conformation of pup and parents, and to familiarise myself with the health (physical and mental) of the dog's lines, rather than go with someone else's definition of what beautiful is! I know in theory it all seems wonderful if the dog comes from rosette-winning parents, but the reality is that being successful in shows does not necessarily a healthy dog make.
We've also had a recent thread where a poster was directed to a breeder who has won everything going with their breed... They also health test, and run a clean show. On paper, they are as reputable as you'll find. In reality, they are complete nutters who, quite frankly, you'd be mad to do business with.
I know I'll probably get shot for saying the above, because there are some excellent breeders who show their dogs and who genuinely produce great pups, but it's really not a good enough guarantee in and of itself.

Cherry Blossom

DBB, I really like working dogs. My own dog's sire is an agility dog and his mum did a stint in the show circuit. But what work do boxers do that would make them an attractive prospect as a stud? From the OP's perspective, how else can his dog compete with dogs who also have relevant health tests but have the added bonus of show titles?

I completely agree on the GSD front but showing has not had the same detrimental effect on all breeds.

OldmanMondeo

Thanks for the replies, Kofi is just gone 3. He has never been shown as he is a family pet, or more to the point one of the family. He has not been sick, touch wood, since he joined the family.

I understand what people are saying about thinking their own dogs are the best out there and would be open to be told he's not what people are looking for.

the beer revolu

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

DBB, I really like working dogs. My own dog's sire is an agility dog and his mum did a stint in the show circuit. But what work do boxers do that would make them an attractive prospect as a stud? From the OP's perspective, how else can his dog compete with dogs who also have relevant health tests but have the added bonus of show titles?

I completely agree on the GSD front but showing has not had the same detrimental effect on all breeds.

Who's to say that the pups ever will be shown or that they should be shown?

DBB

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

DBB, I really like working dogs. My own dog's sire is an agility dog and his mum did a stint in the show circuit. But what work do boxers do that would make them an attractive prospect as a stud? From the OP's perspective, how else can his dog compete with dogs who also have relevant health tests but have the added bonus of show titles?

I completely agree on the GSD front but showing has not had the same detrimental effect on all breeds.

I was more trying the emphasise that success in shows is not necessarily the most critical factor across the board. To me, it's perfectly acceptable to say that many breeds' only "job" these days is to be a good, gentle, reliable pet. So to me at least, once my vet is happy to say that the parents and pups are in great physical order, and once I had researched the longevity, health, and temperament of the ancestors, then it's all about temperament. And temperament, and I mean a real, proper test of behavioural stability and resilience, cannot be assessed in the show ring... Indeed, I know quite a few dogs of different breeds who can hold it together in the show ring, but who are pretty questionable in terms of how safe or enjoyable they are to live with.
The show ring does not assess the health nor longevity of the dog... That's the vet's job too.
So, were I buying a Boxer, or another breed that doesn't really have a "job" any more (other than being a pet), I don't consider the show ring to be an appropriate gauge of its suitability as a pet, either from a mental or health point of virw. Indeed, there isn't a judge in the country, of any breed, whose opinion on the conformation of a dog would trump what a good, knowledgeable vet could tell me.
I just don't feel the show ring is a particularly realistic gauge to assess for what most dogs end up doing... Being pet dogs!

Cherry Blossom

the beer revolu wrote: »

Who's to say that the pups ever will be shown or that they should be shown?

Nobody at all. A show quality pup comes along once every few litters where the parents are show dogs. My point is this:

Bill has a bitch he wants a litter from. John and Tom both have health tested dogs but Tom's dog has show titles, so why would Bill choose John's dog as the sire?

the beer revolu

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Nobody at all. A show quality pup comes along once every few litters where the parents are show dogs. My point is this:

Bill has a bitch he wants a litter from. John and Tom both have health tested dogs but Tom's dog has show titles, so why would Bill choose John's dog as the sire?

Because Bill likes John's dog and doesn't give a toss about showing their pups.
It's also likely that John's dog will introduce some new, healthy blood to the gene pool .

Cherry Blossom

the beer revolu wrote: »

Because Bill likes John's dog and doesn't give a toss about showing their pups.
It's also likely that John's dog will introduce some new, healthy blood to the gene pool .

Ah, that's what the inbreeding co-efficient is all about. Bill would need the pedigree of both dogs back as far as possible to determine which pairing would result in pups with the lowest percentage.

Dial Hard

the beer revolu wrote:

Why would that matter in the least if the op is interested in breeding a healthy dog with a good temperament? Why should they care whether the pups would do well at shows as long as the health tests are done and both parents are of good temperament ?

It's nothing to do with the pups doing well at shows, it's determining if the parents are good enough examples of the breed to be worth breeding from. We destroy SO many dogs in this country every year that "nice temperament" isn't a good enough reason to breed, imo. I've yet to meet a Boxer who *didn't* have a fantastic temperament.

DBB wrote:

I am not as familiar with other breeds, but I suspect that just because a dog has won in shows, it does not necessarily automatically follow that it's a good example of its breed, or that it is functional, or that it won't succumb to hereditary diseases at an all-too-early age (cf Boxers and cancer). Personally, I'd prefer my vet to declare herself happy with the conformation of pup and parents, and to familiarise myself with the health (physical and mental) of the dog's lines, rather than go with someone else's definition of what beautiful is!

I know, and that's why I said I'd start with showing, not start and finish there. Tests for hip dysplasia and cardiomyopathy at a minimum are also vital. But, in my experience, "Are you prepared to show?" is a good way to gauge whether a prospective breeder is going to put the effort into all the other aspects of responsible breeding.

The OP asked for advice on how to breed "properly" and this is mine. He should also be prepared to be asked these kinds of questions of the owner of the bitch involved, if they have any idea what they're doing. And should be wary of any owners who don't ask him such things, tbh.

I wasn't having a go at the OP and I'm well aware that many kennel clubs and breed societies have a LOT to answer for in terms of breed standards, health issues and gene pools. But Boxers are a breed very, very close to my heart and I feel very strongly about casual breeding of them.

Knine

I am actually a dog show judge & I did & do a huge amount of training & have been assessed many times to get to that point. It is hard work & costly. Your training is never finished either. Vets would not actually do that kind of training. We go into conformation in great detail - how it affects movement, working ability, stamina etc. Things such as upper arm, angulation, rib shape, bite etc will all determine how sound a dog will be long term. These are all very specific to the relevant breed. I have had vets not even know what one of my breeds is. They have asked me when was I breeding a certain bitch. I spayed her because she has mouth issues therefore certainly not goid enough to breed from. There are several vets involved in one of my breeds. I woud never buy a dog from them due to some of the mouth issues I have seen in their stock.

If looking for a stud dog for my bitch I would be looking for a dog that complemented her. I also look for a dog capable of doing a days work as both of mine are still used for their original function.

The OP reckons his dog is a great specimen & he could well be. I would suggest he googles some of the dogs on its pedigree to find out more info and contacts the Boxer Breed Club to have his dog assessed.

Cherry Blossom

First time I took Teddy to my vet and she was writing his breed on the card.

Vet: Ah he's a miniature collie

Me: Sheltie

Her: Miniature Sheltie

Me: No not miniature anything, breed standard sized Sheltie.

He's fully grown now and 16 inches.:D

Knine

One called my Spinone a Labradoodle & to a Spinone owner there is nothing more offensive.

DBB

In fairness lads, I did emphasise that it needs to be a good vet, by which I mean one you can trust to adjudge a dog properly.
Knine, I absolutely get what you're saying about training judges receive, but in the bigger picture, looking at what judges choose as being physically sound and conformationally correct German Shepherds quite honestly would shake the credibility of it all, for all breeds. How can a judge honestly justify choosing a frogdog as a wonderful example of its breed? If they can't get it right with GSDs... What else are we missing?
There's a hugely successful breeder of GSDs near me, wins all around him. Apart from the obvious sloping back issue with them, his dogs have terrible skin issues and TERRIBLE temperament problems. Even if they were put together properly, not a chance on earth could you send a client to him to buy a pup.
Another breeder I know of a terrier breed who has had great success in the show ring, whose dogs have serious issues with nerviness and fearfulness. Not a chance could you send clients to this person if it's a pet dog they're after.
I have a hazy memory of, was it one of the finalists in last year's Crufts, trotting around the ring lame (not a GSD). How did a dog with conformation that led it to being lame by day's end make it through?
Now, I know judges have to judge to a breed standard, but really... Maybe that's a sign that things just aren't right at every level.
We also have the very real issue of pervasive health problems... Champion Cavaliers being bred from multiple times, spreading their syringomyelia far and wide... Breeds being adjudged to have excellent conformation which hampers their ability to give birth naturally... Like I said, I know there are many good guys out there, but a lot has happened to harm the credibility of showing in terms of its real relevance to people who just want a nice, healthy pet dog.

Knine

German Shepherd Judges tend to always be specialists hence the problem persists. All round Breed Judges would not award the frog legs. It is one of the reasons why you seldom see one awarded a group placing.

The breeds you mention would be exceptions. Pet Bulldogs are often unable to breed either. Now we also have unregulated American XL Bullies with desperate health issues, huge wide fronts & very short legs. These would be non FCI recognised types

There are always going to be corrupt judges & breeders too & one absolutely awful person was already mentioned. These people will be judging the wrong end of the lead.

If there was not lots of reputable breeders & judges out there we would lose the attibutes of our pedigree breeds. For example I see many many huge Borders with weak heads & wearing coats. It makes me want to cry. I've seen lads say look at my lovely strong Boxer & it would be far bigger then breed standard & resemble a mastiff. Spinoni that look like German pointers.

Yes there are issues but it all as usual boils down to the Breeder/ judge being reputable.

muddypaws

You also need to check that your boy hasn't got any breeding restrictions on his IKC paperwork. Some breeders will put endorsements on, to prevent any progeny being able to be registered. These will usually be lifted once genetic health tests etc have been done.