Media: RIAI has said that the new minimum apartment sizes cannot be built

The_Conductor

From RTE



In short- The Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland claims that the new minimum apartment sizes proposed by the Department of the Environment cannot physically be built (as the minimum sizes for rooms will not fit inside the minimum size for the dwelling.......)

The_Conductor

And from today's Irish Times

RIAI vice-president and housing spokesman John O’Mahony said it was “not possible” to design an apartment within the new minimum sizes because the smallest permissible rooms would not fit inside.

handlemaster

Its sad that again decisions are been made that are going to adversly affect generations to come. There should be a focus on long term and not headline catching moves for political gain.

The_Conductor

The knux of the issue (aside from the simple fact- that the minimum room sizes simply don't fit into the minimum apartment sizes)- is that there is zero cognisance of any storage whatsoever in the plans- with a suggestion 'sure apartment dwellers all have basement storage for whatever they need to store.....' (which is complete bollox).

Cuddlesworth

The_Conductor wrote: »

The knux of the issue (aside from the simple fact- that the minimum room sizes simply don't fit into the minimum apartment sizes)- is that there is zero cognisance of any storage whatsoever in the plans- with a suggestion 'sure apartment dwellers all have basement storage for whatever they need to store.....' (which is complete bollox).

The few apartments I am aware of with Basement storage are a godsend though.

The_Conductor

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

The few apartments I am aware of with Basement storage are a godsend though.

The only apartment complex I know of with basement storage- has issues with collecting management charges- and has allowed their plant and equipment- including pumps for removing excess water- as its below ground level- fall into disrepair. I was viewing an apartment there- and asked to see the basement storage. I was handed waders by the Estate Agent- who advised me the water was just over 18" deep.........

I am not aware of basement storage in any other units- and I've viewed several.

syklops

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

The few apartments I am aware of with Basement storage are a godsend though.

The operative word here is few. Apartments with basement storage are the exceptions not the rule.

Dr_Bill

Why would we want to go back to building shoe boxes at the expense of design & quality to construct buildings that long-term are not suitable for modern living.

Alan Kelly needs to see a sample of some of the houses and apartments built during the 80's to fully appreciate the effects of what he is proposing. He would fully appreciate then what "couldn't swing a cat in the place" would mean.

Do we really want to go back to where show houses & apartments are filled with bespoke furniture & beds so it looks like you can get a bed/sofa into a room? God forbid you might head down to the local furniture shop a buy standard size beds and the likes to discover they won't fit into your new lovely dream shoe box, only issue now of course is your now mortgaged to your eyeballs & a developer with a twinkle in their eye laughing at you!

Cuddlesworth

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Why would we want to go back to building shoe boxes at the expense of design & quality to construct buildings that long-term are not suitable for modern living.

Alan Kelly needs to see a sample of some of the houses and apartments built during the 80's to fully appreciate the effects of what he is proposing. He would fully appreciate then what "couldn't swing a cat in the place" would mean.

Do we really want to go back to where show houses & apartments are filled with bespoke furniture & beds so it looks like you can get a bed/sofa into a room? God forbid you might head down to the local furniture shop a buy standard size beds and the likes to discover they won't fit into your new lovely dream shoe box, only issue now of course is your now mortgaged to your eyeballs & a developer with a twinkle in their eye laughing at you!

There is strong market in Dublin for single people and couples to live in studio style apartments assuming the rent is cheap. It can't be cheap when a 1 bed apartment has to take up nearly the full amount of space that a 2 bed apartment can.

The_Conductor

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

There is strong market in Dublin for single people and couples to live in studio style apartments assuming the rent is cheap. It can't be cheap when a 1 bed apartment has to take up nearly the full amount of space that a 2 bed apartment can.

'Studio style apartment' sounds nice in theory- the problem is this is an attempt at pile them up and sell them for whatever they can get. For example- in addition to making them smaller- they also need less window space for bedrooms, no dual aspect, smaller rooms, no built-in wardrobes etc etc. The term 'shoebox' actually begins to accurately describe these.

Young people may rent small crap 1 bedroom apartments- if the price is right- however, if they are simply the new bedsit of the decade- they will turn out to be slums that no-one willingly wants to live in- and anyone who is forced to live in them- aspires to move at the earliest possible opportunity.........

Aside from the complete and utter lack of accommodation at the moment- the bigger issue is no path for singletons who buy one of these to subsequently move to more appropriate accommodation as their circumstances change. So- you end up with young children and the elderly- in accommodation not suited to their needs- and unhappy communities..........

Caliden

Does the statement only apply to 1 bed apartments because I'm living in a 2 bed apartment that's 66m2.

The_Conductor

Caliden wrote: »

Does the statement only apply to 1 bed apartments because I'm living in a 2 bed apartment that's 66m2.

Nope- it relates to 1, 2 and 3 bed apartments.
The Minister in his wisdom changed the rules for all of them- and RIAI says none of his proposals stack up (as in- they are technically not possible to implement).

Taco Chips

We should be aiming to consistently raise the minimum standards of accommodation, not making reactive short term decisions that benefit no one but developers trying to cram as many units as possible into complexes. Building up is the clear answer here and increasing density as has been stated many times over on this thread. What it needs is someone with a bit of bollocks to push it through despite the usual whining from corners of DCC and residential objectors.

expectationlost

The_Conductor wrote: »

The only apartment complex I know of with basement storage- has issues with collecting management charges- and has allowed their plant and equipment- including pumps for removing excess water- as its below ground level- fall into disrepair. I was viewing an apartment there- and asked to see the basement storage. I was handed waders by the Estate Agent- who advised me the water was just over 18" deep.........

I am not aware of basement storage in any other units- and I've viewed several.

well they might build some now

The_Conductor

expectationlost wrote: »

well they might build some now

I'm not a pessimist- however, a leopard doesn't change its spots.
If it hasn't been done other than in exceptional circumstances historically- its unlikely to start up now. In addition- a management company would have difficulty monetising basement storage- whereas they have no such issues monetising basement parking- QED- follow the money.......

It was a hairbrained scheme by the Minister- poorly thought out- and without any input from those who actually know how to critically assess these type proposals.

The_Conductor

IBEC have now decided to row in- criticising the proposals

From today's Irish Times

Property industry representatives and planners have said they urged the Department of the Environment to test new rules on apartment sizes six months before there were introduced- but the Department ignored this advice.

The_Conductor

You know- I think the Minister was on a Doctor Who binge when he came up with this idea.........
Reduce the size of the dwellings by up to or even over 20%- but no change to the minimum specs and sizes of the individual rooms........
He was trying to replicate the Tardis..........

handlemaster

The_Conductor wrote: »

You know- I think the Minister was on a Doctor Who binge when he came up with this idea.........
Reduce the size of the dwellings by up to or even over 20%- but no change to the minimum specs and sizes of the individual rooms........
He was trying to replicate the Tardis..........

It was nothing more than coming up with an idea that was to be seen to be doing somthing. In reality decisions like this have effects that go long into the future all because a ministère doesnt want to look like an idiot in the papers

Dr_Bill

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

There is strong market in Dublin for single people and couples to live in studio style apartments assuming the rent is cheap. It can't be cheap when a 1 bed apartment has to take up nearly the full amount of space that a 2 bed apartment can.

I couldn't agree with you more there is a market for such accommodation but it must be quality accommodation with good size & layout that people would actually like to live in and not a knee jerk reaction to the lack of construction activity since 2008.

The_Conductor

And now the Minister has responded to criticisms about his new Regulations- calling architects hypocritical, wrong and disingenuous. He also claims to be 'flummoxed' by their comments


Link to article with the Minister's response in today's Irish Times

The_Conductor

And now it looks like the legislation (which has been enacted) may be modified- to allow smaller room sizes- so the minimum room sizes actually fit into the minimum apartment sizes.

The Minister also states- that the 'Minimum sizes are absolute minimum sizes- and not targets for planners/developers- and it is only expected the minimum sizes would be used in exceptional circumstances'.

Yeah, right.........

The_Conductor

The Minister it would seem- has form in this respect- doing solo runs with proposals without consulting anyone (that this got into legislation- is a little more unusual). His argument now appears to be- well the RIAI managed to design small apartments in the past- there is nothing to stop them doing so again in the future- the simple fact that the legislation governing room sizes was changed specifying larger rooms- and he has not changed these requirements- seems to have eluded him. Industry- is viewing the 'minimum sizes' as a target, rather than an absolute minimum- which is pretty much what any rational observer would expect them to do.

Sigh- so it looks like the way to get around it not being possible to build the minimum sized apartments- will be to allow significantly smaller rooms that will fit inside the smaller floor plan........

The only looser in all of this- are the poor folk who are expected to live in these.

Michael D Not Higgins

Just build up stupid!

The government won't increase density by building up so they'll do it by building smaller. Great job.

Macha

What a short term vision with almost no benefit and so many long term problems. If the housing market is broken, fix it. Why build poor-quality, unattractive apartments that will still be there in 50 years in a misguided effort to resolve the lack of affordable housing today? Dublin and the rest of the country if already going to have to live with the Kennedy of disastrous urban sprawl and badly built homes. This will just add to it.

And why is the Department of Environment talking about starter homes? This story of thinking I'd part of the reason the housing market is so broken in Ireland. You don't hear people talking about starter homes in the rest of Europe.