Emigrants, thinking of coming home?

steddyeddy

Pbear it's ridiculous to say any view is not subjective.

catbear

All I know is that a potential top position in the USA could go to man who wants to ban people entering because of their religion.

Permabear

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catbear

Permabear wrote: »

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One bunch of fools and buffoons has a nuclear arsenal.

Edit to add. The electorates are different too, one nation has more than 75 guns per hundred of pop. You know what they say, when your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

rmacm

Zero chance of returning...been away from Ireland almost full time since 2009, settled in Germany since 2011. I've built a life here that I'm happy with.

Permabear

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Wibbs

I see the go Murca! Libertarian types have shown up…

Permabear wrote: »

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Ahh the usual panic nonsense in action. Gets the attention of the harder of thinking I suppose. You do know one can get medical insurance here too? And that can speed things up exponentially. Hardly ideal, but it is what it is. Amazing that people can have a choice like. In America not so much. For a start the costs of medical therapies are the highest in the world by a goodly margin, driven by the medical and insurance industries. Most common cause of personal bankruptcy for Americans? Medical bills, even with insurance. Gotta read that fine print. From stats quoted in the article; Even outside of bankruptcy, about 56 million adults—more than 20 percent of the population between the ages of 19 and 64—will still struggle with health-care-related bills this year and estimates reckon nearly 10 million adults with year-round health-insurance coverage will still accumulate medical bills that they can't pay off this year[2013]. But let us for a moment imagine that's all scaremongering by pinko commie liberals who want to take our tax dollars from our cold dead fingers, how many Irish people have gone bankrupt over medical bills?

Relying on the Irish health system is only increasing your chances of dying, tbh.

Funny then that longevity stats for men and women Ireland rank Ireland at 16th and 22nd respectively, yet America comes in at 37th for both. Indeed while American medicine certainly has some advantages(if you can afford it) overall the results as far as societal health go lag behind other western nations. For example in cancer survival stats Ireland is ranked above the US and this is even when we take into account the lead time bias in such stats. that makes the US stats look better again. The stats for infant and childhood mortality rates are lower in Ireland too. Whatever about the pros and cons of living in the US health and healthcare is not a very good example of a pro.

Well, that's possible. I already said that lower-income workers are probably better off in Ireland.

Probably? You'd want some set of atomic powered blinkers to think otherwise.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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I've been here just shy of 5 years now and I do feel a bit rooted. I think I'd be reluctant to leave at this stage. I like the UK but, unless I found out that I could earn 20-30% net somewhere else I think I am going to be spending the rest of my life here.

A small group of us moved over to different parts of the country. One chap returned after a few months because he couldn't stick Birmingham and another couldn't bear being so far away from his family. I see no real reason to return myself short of career development.

Fred Swanson

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Permabear

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Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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Same here. I chose a career in science meaning lots of moving around in order to gain skills. I'm trying to make myself palatable for the private sector. My current grant is about to expire so I'm preparing to move again. I'd definitely consider somewhere abroad but the idea of going through that rigmarole again and leaving people behind is enough to give me reason to pause at the very least.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Wibbs wrote: »

I see the go Murca! Libertarian types have shown up… Ahh the usual panic nonsense in action. Gets the attention of the harder of thinking I suppose. You do know one can get medical insurance here too? And that can speed things up exponentially. Hardly ideal, but it is what it is. Amazing that people can have a choice like.

Well, I've never even been to the US. I want to rectify that but an opportunity to do is unlikely to present itself soon.

I don't understand the US healthcare system well enough to know why it's so overpriced. I'm given to think that it's down to overconsumption of insurance but it's probably more complicated than that. The Dutch seem to have the best system in Europe though it's not quite the free market that a libertarian would yearn for.

Tuesday_Girl

Permabear wrote: »

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On the other hand, people often start to think of returning when they have kids or when their parents are getting older and need support. Many of my friends who had zero plans to return at 30 are now back at 40, to be closer to family and to rear their children in Ireland. They said their priorities slowly changed over the years and what they saw as important at 30 seemed far less so at 40. I myself had no plans to return until one day in my 40's I just decided it was what I wanted to do and a year later I was back.

ancapailldorcha

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Makes sense. The only way to settle down in my area seems to be either get a lectureship which is near impossible or flock off to the private sector which I think most do. Stability is very underrated IMO.

pgmcpq

Tony EH wrote: »

Those stats don't tell the whole story though and probably have less to do with the systems in question and more to do with the people using those systems.

By and large Irish people tend to be more shy about visiting doctors and hospitals than Americans do, leading to first diagnoses being later than they should, especially in men.

People working in hospitals here will tell you that the Irish are terrible at presenting themselves and leave things beyond the time that they should go.

Actually, there is another factor at work here. In the US people without healthcare will never get diagnosed and so will never get factored into the statistics. Wealthier people with better overall health do better, so skewing the statistics.

My US born OH having witnessed the care of my mother in Ireland, and contrasted that with her own experience, remarked to me after that her immediate thought was "No one goes bankrupt over health here".

The US has many fine qualities but it is not a great place to be poor or sick.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Wibbs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

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Complex it is ACD, but insurance seems near guaranteed to drive up pricing. You can see that in microcosm with of all things pet insurance. It's a relatively recent development in these parts, but since its introduction veterinary prices have quadrupled and more and one hand shakes the other(and an element of price fixing comes in) so prices keep rising. Pricier procedures are more favoured too of course as that nets the best return for the practitioners. A good example would be the use of stents in patients with heart disease. An American patient is far more likely(over double the rate) to get the stent procedure than a Canadian patient presenting with the same pathology. Ditto for bypass surgery. Best medical practice? Sometimes, but there is more than an element that the procedure costs many thousands in the US medical market so the doctors and companies get more of a profit from it, on top of their inflated prices and insurance will pay for it(well the patients ultimately pay for it but…). In Canada's healthcare system other therapies for non acute stable heart disease like drugs and lifestyle changes are pushed. Not nearly so profitable for private enterprise, but advantageous for public. The survival/prognosis/death rate in both countries is about the same(Canada has a slight edge, but that is as likely down to lower rates of roly-poly people).

Permabear wrote:

Perhaps, but I'd rather be bankrupt than dead.

More panic soundbites that mean nada. You should run for public office over there. The plain provable fact is that the average person will live longer in Ireland(and a fair bit longer in France) than in the US and it's far cheaper to do so. Here's a thought; what about a more equitable society where an individual doesn't have to even think of such a choice? Mad Ted I tells you. But then again that's wider society type thinking, not the sure I'm alright Jack sod anyone else type thinking becoming sadly ever more engrained in the "American Dream". From a nation that gave the world the New Deal to a nation that has one of the largest growing wealth gaps in the developed world.

As Pgmcpq noted

pgmcpq wrote:

The US has many fine qualities but it is not a great place to be poor or sick.

Permabear

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steddyeddy

I live in the UK at the moment in a government research position but my bosses are based in the US and I'll spend half of my time in a government dept there.

So would I come back? Well I actually miss Irish culture and the Irish people TBH. I think we're usually good talkers and as evident by some of the posters here we do very well abroad.

The money's good and I love my research. I've been to the states for a while before and I liked it. I'll also have comprehensive health insurance and a dental plan ect.

The UK has the NHS which is unbelievably free and the cost of living is slightly lower. I think the wages can be lower than Ireland for public servants and scientists though. Americans pay top dollar.

I'd like to have a house in Ireland and one or two homes in either the states or the UK. I'd also love a holiday home in Africa.

Saying that a big big problem for me is the way they treat you in America because you're born into a certain socio-economic group. It's discrimination plain and simple. It's far from a meritocracy.

The people here who are praising the system got over the hardest part (Access to good school and college) over in Ireland. My boss is from a poor part of America and went to MIT via a scholarship. He's a genius IMHO and the opinion of many others and if he didn't get the scholarship it would have been harder. So basically you have a situation where someone thick as pigsh1t but wealthy parents has a better chance of going to uni than someone more intelligent.

I can't live in a society like that.

Permabear

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Jimoslimos

Permabear wrote: »

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Really?

Permabear wrote: »

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Seems pretty subjective to me.

Of course when you do use "facts and statistics" you're prone to cherry-picking those ones that suit your agenda.

Permabear wrote: »

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No stats here? Given the average life expectancy is higher in Ireland and most of Europe than the US I'd expect not - though I'm sure you can find some obscure metric of health standards/QOL to support your argument.

I live in the UK, the NHS despite its flaws is a fantastic system. For cutting-edge medicine and the newest treatments the US might be slightly ahead - but this is limited to a small percentage of the population (who have insurance that will cover them). In terms of overall delivery of healthcare to the entire population, the UK system is far superior.

Permabear

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Shelga

Other factors that, cumulatively, put me off going back:

1. Our Taoiseach worked as a primary school teacher for 4 years before entering politics. This does not indicate someone who had a drive to understand economics, business, science, technology, innovation or any of the other factors which contribute to a strong economy and society. Teaching is an admirable profession but I would prefer a leader who had demonstrated a firm grasp of world affairs, finance, global conflict, etc, before assuming political office.

2. I have no idea what the difference is between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. Centrist, bland, please-everyone-stand-for-nothing politics have been the order of the day in Ireland as long as I can remember. Say what you like about the Tories, the Republicans, the SNP- at least they are reasonably clear about what they stand for, and provoke debate. Irish politics puts me to sleep, apart from Sinn Fein who are just lunatics.

3. Lack of control over my reproductive choices in Ireland. This one's a biggie. I don't want to live somewhere where the next decade is going to be spent going round and round in circles about should abortion be allowed in cases of rape (wtf- never understood the logic in this stance- you're basically saying a foetus' status as deserving of life or not depends on how it was conceived- you either believe it's a baby or you don't), suicidal ideation, incest, blah blah blah. It's my body and if I want one I'll bloody well get one.

4. How long it takes for anything to change due to the government sticking their heads in the sand and kicking the can down the road for decades. I left school 10 years ago and everyone in my school hated Irish with a passion. My friend was given detention for skipping Irish class to study her Physics homework in the library. Physics was not even being available to her without going to the Institute, due to not enough girls wanting to do it, therefore as we're forced into single-sex schools a lot of STEM subjects are off-limits to girls. I was lucky we had JUST the minimum amount of students required for Applied Maths. Anyway, a decade on there isn't even the tiniest sign of any of this changing. Most anti-Irish anti-Religion voters don't expect things to change overnight, but the government has done absolutely nothing to overhaul the curriculum for Irish, make small moves to limit the influence of the Church on schools, nothing.

It feels like things take half a century to change in Ireland and even then it's at a snail's pace. Meanwhile people are moving on with their lives, living in places that offer them what they need in the present, not 20 years from now.

Rant over. It's complicated. I could write just as much if not more about what I love about the place, but they tend to be things that provoke some sort of emotion in me like the scenery and the people, and have nothing to do with the establishment.

ubermick

Tuesday_Girl wrote: »

On the other hand, people often start to think of returning when they have kids or when their parents are getting older and need support. Many of my friends who had zero plans to return at 30 are now back at 40, to be closer to family and to rear their children in Ireland. They said their priorities slowly changed over the years and what they saw as important at 30 seemed far less so at 40. I myself had no plans to return until one day in my 40's I just decided it was what I wanted to do and a year later I was back.

Aaaaand, that sums me up completely.

I moved out to America in 1996, when there was more chance of winning the lotto then there was getting a job. Settled in California, million dollar house, wife, expensive car, eating out at fancy restaurants, the whole thing. Turned 40, had a kid, and suddenly it's all far less relevant. The toys and the lifestyle takes a back seat to my daughter growing up knowing her family, and her heritage. The car is less important than her being safe.

So now we've more or less made our minds up to come home (have a thread going in the Personal forum where Perma's chimed in) probably next year.

ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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I think you're being a tad unfair here. I'm working with a Sudanese doctor at the moment and he comes across as being very intelligent, enthusiastic and professional. I'm not saying of course that Sudan's Universities are anything like Harvard but it's a bit unfair to write them off.

Wibbs

Permabear wrote: »

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And if one was to apply the same focus to the US, then we'd be here all day and night, down to the county level, never mind the state level. EG. In Ireland we're concerned about homeless families in hotels and B&B's, what's the homeless population in the US like? How many pensioners and the mentally ill are living beneath underpasses in Ireland? What does the rate of poverty look between the US and the EU? And that's with a much broader definition of it in Europe. Oh sorry, I forgot, you're alright.

But yet again, there's no objective "best place" to be. There's only best for you. And it's clear that emigrants are divided over this -- some decide that it's best for them to return to Ireland; others decide that they're much happier remaining in another country.

That I agree with 100%

For me personally, I'll stay in the States. I enjoy my job immensely, can make a lot of money doing it, pay much less tax than I would in Ireland (carried interest rate exemption, yay), and can provide a nice home and good standard of living for my family so that we're all healthy, happy, and well-educated. I don't need to rely on the state for a social safety net, so that's not a concern for me.

And that folks, as I pointed put previously, is the perfect example of the crass Libertarian mindset of "I'm alright Jack, fcuk anyone else and society in general".

I would very much doubt if anybody who is "thick as pigsh1t" ends up at MIT. According to the MIT website, only 8% of applicants were admitted in 2015, and even a high percentage of students with extremely high SAT and ACT scores were rejected.

If you can with a straight face claim that there isn't a huge bias in US universities towards those with money, you are taking the piss at this stage.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think you're being a tad unfair here. I'm working with a Sudanese doctor at the moment and he comes across as being very intelligent, enthusiastic and professional. I'm not saying of course that Sudan's Universities are anything like Harvard but it's a bit unfair to write them off.

He's a self avowed libertarian AC, a few things are usually built into them at the core; value autism, extreme self interest and an odd snobbishness born of that. QV his musings above. Go America, my America, I'm alright, who cares about anyone else, that's what charity is for.

chillybilly

No. The wife hates it there and I'm indifferent.

Permabear

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Shelga

Another point on the mass shootings- I'd imagine it's utterly chilling to live in a country where they occur at all, not that you think it's realistically likely to happen to you.

Permabear

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rainbow kirby

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm another one who does have serious reservations about living in Ireland before the menopause for 8th amendment-related reasons - particularly considering that it covers far more than just abortion, it compromises treatment for just about anything that could go wrong during pregnancy. I am not willing to accept a second class status as a pregnant woman.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

And if one was to apply the same focus to the US, then we'd be here all day and night, down to the county level, never mind the state level. EG. In Ireland we're concerned about homeless families in hotels and B&B's, what's the homeless population in the US like? How many pensioners and the mentally ill are living beneath underpasses in Ireland? What does the rate of poverty look between the US and the EU? And that's with a much broader definition of it in Europe. Oh sorry, I forgot, you're alright.

To me that's something more than anything else that shows up the States for the cruel place is can turn out to be for many, many people. Hundreds of thousands, if not more *shudder*.

I was in San Francisco a few years ago and the level of homelessness would sicken you. On EVERY street corner, there were groups of homeless people begging. The came from all races, cultures too and a lot of them were, to put it simply, quite mad.

It really says a lot about a nation when you see an old Chinese lady bin dipping for last nights pizza as a man in a $40,000 suit walks be her and it isn't anything good to say either.

I came away from that city hating it. I'm glad I was only there for work and for a short period.

Someone once said that you judge a society by how it takes care of its weakest and by that yardstick, America will fail and fail hard.

c_man

Tony EH wrote: »

as a man in a $40,000 suit walks.

:eek:


You know, I don't think emigrants will ever be given a vote. They might relent a small bit and allow us to vote for the President (because it's essentially meaningless) but not for the Dail. We must be the only Western country that doesn't do so.

K-9

Shelga wrote: »

$750 a month?? :eek: Damn that failed green card lottery. North Carolina is a lovely part of the US indeed. I think there would be many pros and cons to living in the States, like anywhere, but certainly financially it seems to make more sense if you are a white collar worker.

The cost of living in Bristol, where I'm considering, seems to be about 20% less than Dublin overall, and you get more bang for your buck. Close to the gorgeous Somerset countryside and Bath, my favourite place in the UK.

I've had to catch myself on and realise that the nice dinners and walks and meetups with friends in Dublin are nice precisely because I don't live there. Paying ridiculous VRT to bring my car home, paying astronomical motor tax and stamp duty and health insurance and income tax and the myriad of other costs just probably isn't worth it. Not to mention the issue of going back to paying €2k a year car insurance, having no credit history in the country etc.

Not sure on the VRT but I thought there was an exemption if you were moving to live here. A lot of Northerners who moved across the border didn't have to pay any VRT. Maybe it changed in the last few years.

Bristol and Bath seem nice cities.

Permabear

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laserlad2010

I think many of the groundbreaking legal decisions regarding abortion, religion in schools etc will have to wait until the generation of 50+ years old die.

Once that happens, we'll be able to mould this country the way we want to.

steddyeddy

I think the lack of the safety net in America is beside the point TBH. I want to work with people the most deserving of their job. The safety net stops the worst happening. In some parts of the states the worst has happened. Your chances of going to college (despite your intelligence) will be reduced significantly and your chance of getting adequate medical care will border on laughable.

I don't get the "well it doesn't effect me" attitude to discrimination based on circumstances of birth. Nobel prize winner and professional gobsh1te James Watson was well known within the community (science) to be quite adverse to hiring women or homosexuals. Now that wouldn't affect me in the slightest as I'm neither female or homosexual. So based on some of the views here it wouldn't bother people like Pbear either. It doesn't have to be fair it just has to work for me.

The above is exactly the reason why I would feel uncomfortable in a America for long periods of time. I want people to be rewarded based not their talents and hard work and not on their circumstances of birth.

It's alright for us Pbear we grew up in a country where there is a big safety net. It's very easy to have an attitude that people would be alright without the safety net when we had it.

Permabear

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Jimoslimos

Permabear wrote: »

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Not sure what point you're trying to make here, other than the usual befuddlement of statistics you think supports your point. Inequality exists? Don't think anyone stated otherwise. Difference is I'd actively support measures to bring the poorest people in society out of poverty.

Permabear wrote: »

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Irony. You don't understand it. Plenty of those same Irish people who criticise the Republicans over Planned Parenthood are equally if not more vocal in their criticism over abortion laws in Ireland.

Then again few would be as cynical as you to try use this in an argument when you've already stated;

Permabear wrote: »

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You couldn't give a toss whether 99% of women in the US or anywhere else could afford or access adequate reproductive healthcare just so long as you're ok.

Permabear wrote: »

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I'd question when and where you went to school in Ireland, given that I think you are of similar age to me. I went to a CBS and there was one perhaps two religion classes a week (one or two too many still) and these were a doss class dedicated to study or messing. Primary school: usual Nativity/communion/confirmation nonsense, but then again my stupendous papier mâché skills haven't found favour with many employers either.

Foreign language skills I concede we are lacking in. The disadvantage of being an anglophone country I guess. However if we can't teach Irish (a relatively simple language) to an acceptable level then I see little hope in students being able to pick up other languages any easier.

By the way, it's not the job of a publicly funded education system to teach specific skills the private sector requires. A knowledge of German and French might be great use in a call centre - critical thinking not so much.

Permabear wrote: »

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Again with the cherry-picking to suit your agenda. So by that calculation 7/20 (35 %) of the 20 worst school shootings occurred in a country with less than 5 % of the world population. You also neglected to mention how many of those 13 were as a result of war or terrorist activity - very different to the sort that occurs in the US.

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

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Was it? You said you're a hedge fund manager. That was what you got out of Ireland. So you did pretty well here. As did I. I worked from a lower ranked university in Ireland and now I'm on the same wage as someone from MIT who wouldn't have got there if not for a scholarship.

Did you? I know I didn't. In the mid-1980s, when I was a child, Ireland had a child poverty rate of 35%, the highest in the European Union after Portugal.

Yes actually my family weren't that badly off at all and I received medical care when I needed it.

steddyeddy

Pbear you're talking abortion laws in Ireland (which I don't agree with) then you mentioned child poverty. To be frank I don't see why you would care about either seeing as your earlier statement was:

I don't need to rely on the state for a social safety net, so that's not a concern for me.

anothernight

This thread was so much more interesting when it was about personal experiences, not about how one country should be liked by everyone else... because it suits me and because I say so. =/

steddyeddy

anothernight wrote: »

This thread was so much more interesting when it was about personal experiences, not about how one country should be liked by everyone else... because it suits me and because I say so. =/

Yes it's gone downhill fast. I don't get why people would take offence to people not agreeing with them about a country.

Permabear

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The Randy Riverbeast

Permabear wrote: »

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I guess people didnt want to fork over 50% of their hard earned money to help them, they should have gotten a job and gotten out of poverty themselves.