HSE attitude

Dubl07

Pets can be as allergic to human dander as people can be to pets' dander. If you have an allergy to dogs, do your research and either chose another place to drink/eat or don't sit beside a dog. Or take one of the many antihistamines available over the counter or on prescription. We share the planet with other creatures. Dogs and other companion animals should not be confined to the four walls of their houses just as an orca should not be confined to a tank.

gctest50

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Whataboutery. Other poor hygiene practices do not excuse the poor hygiene practice of allowing animals where food is served.

Only a bit of fun y'know - that post has a lot of stress and other things going on - interacting with animals improve all sorts of things like that

Limited evidence exists for positive effects of Human Animal Interaction on: reduction of stress-related parameters such as epinephrine and norepinephrine; improvement of immune system functioning and pain management; increased trustworthiness of and trust toward other persons; reduced aggression; enhanced empathy and improved learning.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3408111/

oppenheimer1

Dubl07 wrote: »

Pets can be as allergic to human dander as people can be to pets' dander. If you have an allergy to dogs, do your research and either chose another place to drink/eat or don't sit beside a dog. Or take one of the many antihistamines available over the counter or on prescription. We share the planet with other creatures. Dogs and other companion animals should not be confined to the four walls of their houses just as an orca should not be confined to a tank.

You're right, they shouldn't be confined to four walls. They should be outside.

Whats in it for a business owner to not have paying customers come into his premises over non paying dogs?

Dubl07

PucaMama wrote: »

People could stand on a tail completely by accident. And have you forgotten hair can leave the dog? And float around?

People who bring dogs to public places tend to have dogs trained to settle peacefully and also prefer tables where the dog can sit in a corner or at the wall. The greatest danger would be where a rugrat with no parental control or manners isn't prevented from vexatious interaction with the dog by parent or pet owner. I'll happily whisk up a toddler or older child and return him or her to his mama or papa if he attempts to bother my dog in a restaurant, the park or elsewhere. It's only good manners on everyone's part.

That's entirely ignoring the benefits to the immune and limbic systems from interaction with pets.

elperello

More "nanny state" nonsense from the HSE.
I can't recall any huge outbreak of illness caused by dogs being in pubs.

se conman

We spent a week in North Wales and it was such a pleasure to see all the signs
"Muddy boots and dogs welcome"
There were several water bowls outside each establishment and there were no problems at all.
A couple of my local establishments have "regular canine visitors" , with or without their owners. Everyone knows them by name and has a chat with them as if they were a human acquaintance.

Dubl07

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You're right, they shouldn't be confined to four walls. They should be outside.

Whats in it for a business owner to not have paying customers come into his premises over non paying dogs?

What's in it? Look at the statistics. People of all ages who visit eateries have dogs. Teens, young couples, parents, middle aged, elderly. If dog owners had options and that's what I'm advocating, they'd be able to bring their dog to a given park and then have a coffee. To the pier and then have lunch. To Glendalough and then have a cup of tea or a glass of wine. Dogs are accompanied by people of far more ages and backgrounds than children and are generally quieter, better behaved (and leashed)!

The dog-owning segment of society is probably less contingent upon economic variables than that of parents. Dogs shouldn't be banned by the HSE because for example eg some hysterical D4 type has a hissy fit about her child being asked by an owner not to maul a cuddly-looking dog or because a rural dweller doesn't like it that a quiet and settled dog won't obey a stranger's commands to be petted.

DBB

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A dog is liable to piss and/or shite on the floor.Other patrons could be allergic to hair. How is the owner of the business meant to know if the animal is properly socialised as well.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You're right, they shouldn't be confined to four walls. They should be outside.

Whats in it for a business owner to not have paying customers come into his premises over non paying dogs?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Whataboutery. Other poor hygiene practices do not excuse the poor hygiene practice of allowing animals where food is served.

For one who's accusing others of whataboutery, you're indulging in a fair bit of it yourself!
Foe example, all the people here pointing out that their experiences of dogs-who-go-places-with-their-owners reflect a strong trend for the dogs to be clean, well-behaved, and *newsflash* housetrained, yet you still come out with accusations such as dogs toileting all over pubs? Lol! You've made comments about dogs in pubs being filthy, and you've been asked to substantiate that in light of it being contrary to everyone else's experiences, but instead of that... More strawman stuff, more whataboutery!
The type of dogs-who-go-places-with-their-owners stand every bit as much a chance of urinating or defecating in a pub as any guide dog does.
Soooo... You have no issue with guide dogs in places, yet you seem to be claiming that dogs-who-go-places-with-their-owners, who are every bit as clean, mannerly, and *newsflash* housetrained as any guide dog, should not be allowed in?
Is it the case the guide dogs don't elicit allergic reactions from susceptible people? Or shed hair, bearing in mind they're lab x Retrievers?
Does not compute.

I've brought my dogs into many, many premises. Without any doubt, if the proprieter gets any inkling that there's a problem with a dog, they'll cop it very, very quickly. If they have a problem, they won't hesitate to ask for the dogs to go. It has never happened to me yet, and I've never seen it happen to other dog owners-who-bring-their-dogs-places. Why has it not happened? Could it... Could it be that all of those dogs managed to settle calmly, resisting the urge to crap all over the pub/hotel/accommodation? It's more usually the case that people don't even realise the dog is there! I have never once encountered a dog in a pub or hotel who was causing a problem. Not once. Maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe dogs-who-go-places-with-their-owners are just well behaved.

Also, *newsflash#2*, non-paying dogs have paying owners! But we all know that!

oppenheimer1

DBB wrote: »

For one who's accusing others of whataboutery, you're indulging in a fair bit of it yourself!
Foe example, all the people here pointing out that their experiences of dogs-who-go-places-with-their-owners reflect a strong trend for the dogs to be clean, well-behaved, and *newsflash* housetrained, yet you still come out with accusations such as dogs toileting all over pubs? Lol! You've made comments about dogs in pubs being filthy, and you've been asked to substantiate that in light of it being contrary to everyone else's experiences, but instead of that... More strawman stuff, more whataboutery!
The type of dogs-who-go-places-with-their-owners stand every bit as much a chance of urinating or defecating in a pub as any guide dog does.
Soooo... You have no issue with guide dogs in places, yet you seem to be claiming that dogs-who-go-places-with-their-owners, who are every bit as clean, mannerly, and *newsflash* housetrained as any guide dog, should not be allowed in?
Is it the case the guide dogs don't elicit allergic reactions from susceptible people? Or shed hair, bearing in mind they're lab x Retrievers?
Does not compute.

Thankfully, the pubs and restaurants I frequent prohibit dogs in general so I do have little experience if seeing it happen in those places. That's not my point though, its how is a business owner going to know how well trained this animal that someone has brought onto his premises is: The owner says he's house trained but they could be lying (they're hardly going to say he's not so he'd have to tie him up outside). The owner doesn't know how the dog is going to react when food is brought out, or if something unforeseen happens, such as someone accidentally standing on him - which could easily happen given the mess of chairs and tablecloths most places are. And the business owner is liable for anything that happens.

I do have experience however with badly trained dogs on public transport. I've seen them piss and shite on buses and trains. The most memorable incident was this lady who I saw walk into Heuston train station toilets with filthy Labrador on an ordinary lead and out with him on a guide dogs harness, dragging him along so he could board the train. I happened to be on the same one (Waterford btw) and the smell was horrific.

I've brought my dogs into many, many premises. Without any doubt, if the proprieter gets any inkling that there's a problem with a dog, they'll cop it very, very quickly. If they have a problem, they won't hesitate to ask for the dogs to go. It has never happened to me yet, and I've never seen it happen to other dog owners-who-bring-their-dogs-places. Why has it not happened? Could it... Could it be that all of those dogs managed to settle calmly, resisting the urge to crap all over the pub/hotel/accommodation? It's more usually the case that people don't even realise the dog is there! I have never once encountered a dog in a pub or hotel who was causing a problem. Not once. Maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe dogs-who-go-places-with-their-owners are just well behaved.

Also, *newsflash#2*, non-paying dogs have paying owners! But we all know that!

As for your second newsflash, owners of dogs will still go places without dogs, but the presence of dogs will put many people off. The market for dog friendly places is too small to be sustainable for somewhere even the size of Dublin. Businesses will cater for the larger market.

tk123

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Thankfully, the pubs and restaurants I frequent prohibit dogs in general so I do have little experience if seeing it happen in those places. That's not my point though, its how is a business owner going to know how well trained this animal that someone has brought onto his premises is: The owner says he's house trained but they could be lying (they're hardly going to say he's not so he'd have to tie him up outside). The owner doesn't know how the dog is going to react when food is brought out, or if something unforeseen happens, such as someone accidentally standing on him - which could easily happen given the mess of chairs and tablecloths most places are. And the business owner is liable for anything that happens.

I do have experience however with badly trained dogs on public transport. I've seen them piss and shite on buses and trains. The most memorable incident was this lady who I saw walk into Heuston train station toilets with filthy Labrador on an ordinary lead and out with him on a guide dogs harness, dragging him along so he could board the train. I happened to be on the same one (Waterford btw) and the smell was horrific.




As for your second newsflash, owners of dogs will still go places without dogs, but the presence of dogs will put many people off. The market for dog friendly places is too small to be sustainable for somewhere even the size of Dublin. Businesses will cater for the larger market.

Ah so as expected your 'in my experience' comment at the start that I asked you to back up with business you've been in with dogs was BS...because you have no experience of dogs in any pubs etc that you've been in?

There's plenty of dog friendly places around Dublin that do a roaring trade and the dogs are warmly welcomed by both staff and people without dogs. We couldn't get a seat on Sunday morning outside one of them was that packed - Sunday!
And NO I wouldn't go to them without my dogs - what in the name of God would I be doing without my dogs in a park or forest?


EVERY business is required by law to permit guide/service dogs who 'in your experience' can be 'filthy and smelly' so you're just digging yourself deeper - you've just agreed (whether you meant to or not) that they're no cleaner than an ordinary unemployed pet dog so if one is allowed there's no reason not to allow the other.
Nobody has died of anaphalictic shock from my dog's hair yet either so the dog hair allergy argument is a farce too.

It's the owner of that business in the story is questioning the HSE's decision because allowing dogs is obviously good for business. If having dogs there was doing any damage to his revenue we wouldn't be discussing the issue here.

As for p1ssing and sh1tting ...thats seems to be coming from posters like yourself.. You have experience, you don't have experience. You won't fequent anywhere that allows dogs so help you God...when everywhere already allows SOME dogs.

gctest50

Going on all that, i suppose they'd go into overload if someone suggested School-Dogs

( teachers bring in their own dogs a few times a week )

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.schulhundweb.de/&prev=search

www.schulhundweb.de

intheclouds

PucaMama wrote: »

People could stand on a tail completely by accident. And have you forgotten hair can leave the dog? And float around?

Hair leaves people and floats around too.

DBB

Oppenheimer1, I'm not going to quote examples, because there are too many, of where you've stated something and then contradicted yourself, or completely diminished any point you've made because all you can come up with is (a) no examples, or (b) one example.
Let me assure you, as I did already, and remembering that I'm basing this on hundreds of examples, both personal and observed, owners of pubs, hotels, accommodation etc will know immediately if a dog is going to cause a problem. It is immediately obvious to the least observant person that a dog is well-mannered, calm, and friendly. It is a foregone conclusion that these dogs are housetrained. If there is a problem, it's a simple matter of asking the owner to remove the dog. I've never seen that though.
On another point... Owners-who-bring-their-dogs-places are generally not thick enough to bring their dog into crowded establishments, and most certainly will not put their dog in a position where it'll get stood on. Neither do we expect to bring dogs into restaurants.
There are hundreds of thousands of dog owners in Ireland. Even if a small percentage of those are owners-who-bring-their-dogs-places, you'll come up with multiples of thousands. Then you've got the majority of customers who don't-bring-their-dog-places, or who have no problem with dogs. Then you've got the small number of people who don't agree with dogs being in places. A niche market? I don't believe so. See? We can all massage information to suit ourselves. I'll bet mine is closer to the truth though!

Anyway, I hadn't really intended using up so much of my time posting this. What I really wanted to say is that everything you've said is utterly confounded by so many other countries where dogs are openly welcomed into pubs and hotels. They seem to have realised that it's not a niche market, and it's really not a problem.
Can you tell me, how do you reconcile this?

DBB

gctest50 wrote: »

Going on all that, i suppose they'd go into overload if someone suggested School-Dogs

( teachers bring in their own dogs a few times a week )

Oh sweet jebus!
Will someone PLEASE think of the children?!!!!

hardCopy

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Thankfully, the pubs and restaurants I frequent prohibit dogs in general so I do have little experience if seeing it happen in those places. That's not my point though, its how is a business owner going to know how well trained this animal that someone has brought onto his premises is: The owner says he's house trained but they could be lying (they're hardly going to say he's not so he'd have to tie him up outside). The owner doesn't know how the dog is going to react when food is brought out, or if something unforeseen happens, such as someone accidentally standing on him - which could easily happen given the mess of chairs and tablecloths most places are. And the business owner is liable for anything that happens.

I do have experience however with badly trained dogs on public transport. I've seen them piss and shite on buses and trains. The most memorable incident was this lady who I saw walk into Heuston train station toilets with filthy Labrador on an ordinary lead and out with him on a guide dogs harness, dragging him along so he could board the train. I happened to be on the same one (Waterford btw) and the smell was horrific.




As for your second newsflash, owners of dogs will still go places without dogs, but the presence of dogs will put many people off. The market for dog friendly places is too small to be sustainable for somewhere even the size of Dublin. Businesses will cater for the larger market.

I think you've missed the point by quite a distance.

The pub owner wants dogs on their premises.

Nobody wants pub owners to be forced to accept dogs, just like they don't have to allow kids on the premises or accommodate buggies and prams or people in dirty runners.

All the owner wants, and I think most on this thread want is for the HSE to leave it up to the pub owner to decide if they allow dogs.

If a dog misbehaves the pub just ask them to leave, like they would an unruly human punter.

I've never met anyone who would leave a pub due to the mere presence of a dog, what do these dog averse Irish people do abroad? Because it's pretty hard to spend a weekend in the UK or Germany without sitting or standing beside a dog in a pub or train.

I totally agree that not every dog is suited to chilling under a table (my own dog especially) nor would they fit in in every pub either, just as different pubs have different admission policies and dress codes.

DBB

hardCopy wrote: »

The pub owner wants dogs on their premises.

Nobody wants pub owners to be forced to accept dogs, just like they don't have to allow kids on the premises or accommodate buggies and prams or people in dirty runners.

All the owner wants, and I think most on this thread want is for the HSE to leave it up to the pub owner to decide if they allow dogs.

After everything that's been said, this is the post of the thread!
This is what it boils down to.

sillysmiles

Having listened to the owner of the pub in question on the radio this morning - allowing dogs on her premises was her USP.

No one is suggesting that premises have to allow dogs but that if a venue owner chooses to make their premises dog friendly then that is their decision.

If someone is very anti dog then it is their choice not to go to that place. It is the venue owners choice to allow dogs in. It is the dog owners choice to bring their dog or not. It's all about people being responsible for their own actions and not having blanket rules enforced based on fear and worst case scenario.

sillysmiles

^ Or what hardcopy said!

seamus

L1011 wrote: »

I'm entirely in agreement with the HSE here. As well behaved as anyones dogs can be, they are an unquantifiable health risk. I wouldn't frequent a pub or restaurant that allowed dogs in anyway so it wouldn't directly impact on me if one did, but the health concerns are still there.

How can something be a risk if it's "unquantifiable"?

Either you can demonstrate a health risk posed by animals or you can't. You can't declare there's definitely a risk and in the same breath say that it's unknown.

What is the health risk in having a dog in a pub or a restaurant that doesn't exist in someone's home?

Alun

seamus wrote: »

What is the health risk in having a dog in a pub or a restaurant that doesn't exist in someone's home?

Exactly. This is the core of the question. If people seriously think there are "unquantifiable", i.e. non-existent, health consequences from even being in the same room as a dog, I'm surprised they even dare to go outside on the street without bathing themselves in bleach on a regular basis.

borderlinemeath

I always frequent my local cafe that is dog friendly. They allow dogs onto their terrace and covered conservatory area. The cafe itself is off limits - ie close to the kitchen where they prep food - and is available for those oh so delicate types that might recoil in horror at seeing a dog beside a very popular dog walking beach. There's water bowls available for the dogs and plenty of other cafes and restaurants close by for the people that might not want to look at a dog while they're eating. Funny enough, it's always busy, even on bad weather days. The oh so delicate types tend not to go walking in inclement weather, so in effect, they depend a good bit on the dog owners for business.

My local rescue have also used a local pub (that has a beer garden) for fund raising days, they also use the 2 local shopping centres and always have a couple of dogs with them as representatives. Do the asthmatic/dander allergic kick up a fuss? I doubt it, they tend to go elsewhere if it's going to be a dangerous environment for them. Luckily for the delicate/sickly/offended types, they are well catered for, ie almost everywhere. The few places that are pet friendly are far too thin on the ground.

borderlinemeath

L1011 wrote: »

I'm entirely in agreement with the HSE here. As well behaved as anyones dogs can be, they are an unquantifiable health risk. I wouldn't frequent a pub or restaurant that allowed dogs in anyway so it wouldn't directly impact on me if one did, but the health concerns are still there.

What can you catch from a dog?
Very little. Perhaps if they were untreated for worms, or were hopping with fleas you might be at risk, but the majority of transmittable diseases that are harmful to humans are passed on from, wait for it, Other Humans!!:eek::eek:

Unless you live in a sterile bubble and don't go out, you're far more likely to catch something in a pub from another human. Buy a drink? Hand the barman money teeming in bacteria. He gives you change, with MILLIONS more bacteria on it. You put it back in your wallet, maybe in your bag, if you're female maybe you put on some lipgloss with the same hand, transmitting bacteria to your make up. Maybe you blow your nose, sending loads more of that lovely bacteria towards your respiratory system. You might touch the table, the person there before you might have a virus and the table may not have been cleaned before you sat at it. You probably touched the stool which definitely didn't get a wipe down. You might use the toilet, touching door handles, toilet handles, hand dryers (don't forget the handle on the way out the door!) and unless you bundle up and wear gloves, you've touched the main door coming in and going out the pub. Probably taking in a few inhalations of nicotine from the porchful of smokers.

And this is all assuming this is a pub without dogs. People need to get a grip on reality. Everything is a risk, everything has germs, we've just been conditioned by good marketing to think we should exist in a 99.9% germ free environment. We need germs to build up an immune system. The sickest people I know are ones that live in a too clean house.

gctest50

DBB wrote: »

Oh sweet jebus!
Will someone PLEASE think of the children?!!!!

oh noes the horror they will get the super-aids

/starts school-dog campaign

Dubl07

gctest50 wrote: »

oh noes the horror they will get the super-aids


/starts school-dog campaign

Actually that's a superb idea. It should start in nursery with PAT trained dogs and give small children training on how to interact with canines, from types of dogs to worming and hand washing and responsible ownership (eg "Santa doesn't ever bring a puppy"). A child would learn even if he or she just watched from across the room or from a Wendy house if they were nervous.

I'd guarantee that a visit once a week for an hour or two to every class from junior infants to second class would be of enormous benefit to the vast majority of those children. After that, it might be best to have it after school. I had cycling proficiency classes in school when I was ten. I wasn't in a position to own a dog at that point but took my neigbhour's dog out at every opportunity. I'd have jumped at the chance to do extracurricular classes on understanding dog behaviour and signs of discomfort, basic training and/or agility as well as grooming, even if I didn't have my own dog.

I know some strict adherents to Islam and Judaism won't entertain contact with dogs but Irish eateries and pubs have traditionally welcomed our doggy friends. Pet dogs are not unclean - just as a menstruating woman or new mum is not and should not be considered pariahs as was held by some Catholic religious regarding women in the not so distant past. Let's have more proper science and less hysteria.

Nekarsulm

You would imagine that the HSE would have enough on its hands, sorting out the trolly crises, or investigating abuse of the elderly by staff in care homes under its remit, rather than visiting city centre pubs to tell the owner what or who can come in the door.

ElKavo

gctest50 wrote: »

oh noes the horror they will get the super-aids


/starts school-dog campaign

This, in reality, is the best possible idea. Having dogs in classrooms will help with the overall education on human canine interaction. We, as a country are led to believe that because a dog looks a certain way it is either cute, cuddly, aggressive, or friendly. Which is nonsense. The more supervised interaction and education that children can have with dogs the better IMO. It will reduce the number of dog bites far more than restriction on dogs in premises or by the likes of BSL. As for dogs being a risk to public health, Pfffft. nonsense. there have been a peer reviewed studies that prove having dogs is great for our physical, mental, and emotional health.

Evac101

Slightly tangential to the objections raised by oppenheimer1 and L1011 but, coming from the country originally, I've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of occasions where humans (of the farmer variety) entered pubs with boots still on from the fields, or stains of a nature I didn't care to investigate too closely on work clothes. It seems like this might present a more legitimate health risk to other patrons but we don't bother putting up signs saying "Farmers go home. Wash up and get changed" on pub doors. Aside from the proven benefits of associating with dogs from an early age to the immune system (pages of Google results from the search term dogs human immune system), the psychological benefits of interacting with dogs (search mental health assistance dogs, psychological benefits of dogs, etc) and the wonderful companionship they provide, pets in public area's, especially ones where pet owners can control interactions, provide the opportunity to teach people (especially younger people) how to properly approach new animals in a manner which minimises the risks to both sides. If the owner/proprietor of an establishment has no objections to humans of varying levels of cleanliness enter their businesses, then I find it hard to find the 'dirty animal' argument based in fact.

pegasus1

The HSE have backed down due to the irish guideline is in breach of EU regulations..
So dogs are welcome back to the MVP

We ourselves were welcome to the Metro cafe off Grafton st. only yesterday..They even offered food for our dogs..

dudara

I visit the MVP regularly and one of the big attractions is having dogs in the pub. It's warm and friendly. The dogs who visit are well behaved and often enjoy the extra attention from other guests.

I used to live in Amsterdam and a fair amount of local cafes / bars / restaurants would have a cat wandering around.

There needs to be a bit of cop on / common sense applied here. It's a pub after all.

awanderer

pegasus1 wrote: »

The HSE have backed down due to the irish guideline is in breach of EU regulations..
So dogs are welcome back to the MVP

We ourselves were welcome to the Metro cafe off Grafton st. only yesterday..They even offered food for our dogs..

What surprises me is that it is only recently that the HSE took the decision to prohibit dogs. I remember working in a very busy pub in the west of Ireland more than 10 years ago when, after the visit of a food inspector, we had to ask a local man to stop bringing his dog to the pub. The dog was very clean, always sitting near his owner's stool near the bar at the side opposite to the kitchen but it didn't make any difference as the health inspector had said that dogs couldn't be allowed where food was served. I thought it was the same everywhere.

I remember being angry at the time and thinking that instead of prohibiting pubs from accepting dogs, they could ask that the pubs that accept dogs put a sticker saying so on their door/window so that customers who don't like the idea to eat in a place where dogs are allowed, could decide to go elsewhere.