Vegans who own carnivores

CabanSail

Just wandered into this forum. Not somewhere I generally go as I do not have any animals which I directly support. This is a question which I have had for some time but it's difficult to ask. I live in an area with a lot of alternative lifestyles. Most are fine but you also get a fair share of zealots too.

One thing I have wanted to know is how the extreme vegans justify their ownership of carnivorous animals?

Some of the people I know are vegetarian or vegan but others in their household are not. Their dietary decisions are their own and they coexist with others who differ. They will even prepare meals with meat for other people. There is no problems there.

The ones I mean are the "Meat is Murder" people who also actively promote their choice and attempt to make others feel guilty for their own decisions. I do not know any of these people and try to avoid them. I do know that some of these people also own carnivores as pets. It seems to me that to do that would require them to feed them meat.

Please do not think I am anti-vegan, I often dine at a vegan restaurant and my consumption of meat is generally quite low.

Cuddlesworth

Plenty don't feed them meat and they end up with a lot of complications because of it.

SillyMangoX

Can't weigh in too much of an opinion as I am neither vegetarian or vegan; but you can get vegetarian dog food. Not something I agree with but hey, obviously there's a market for it.
Have also had people in vets/pet shop asking me if we could supply a vegetarian cat food. This angers me a lot because cats are obligate carnivores and thus cannot live without meat. People don't seem to grasp that concept. Or the concept that cats and dogs have different nutritional needs and you cannot feed a cat solely on dog food, but that's a rant for another thread.

Cherry Blossom

I don't know of any personally but there are people who feed their dogs veggie friendly dog food. It is very expensive and very poor quality and I wouldn't give it to my dogs in a fit. I have a westie and I do know that during rationing in the UK the breed almost died out and was saved by sending dogs to the US and bringing them or their progeny back when rationing was over. I have a young veggie cousin who would dearly love a dog but after much consideration got a pair of guinea pigs instead.

TG1

I was never a vegan but was a vegitarian for years while I had Bob, and also while I had two other short term dogs staying in the house I lived in.

I wouldn't even have thought of depriving them of meat, I was making a choice for myself knowing what the consequences of it were going to be but I couldn't make that choice for lives I was responsible for without knowing what the consequences were for them. They got meat and plenty of it!

meathstevie

It's very black and white. Carnivorous animals eat meat, end of. Feeding them anything else in my opinion is at least neglect.

Just like feeding herbivores meat or meat derived products is asking for trouble. BSE is a prime example of such.

With some planning and careful balancing people who are natural omnivores can get by on a vegan or vegetarian diet but animals are instinctive eaters who don't read labels or publications by dieticians.

Ave Sodalis

PETA have an article of how you should feed your dog and cat a vegan diet. Be warned, as with many PETA articles, it makes for scary reading.

DBB

sup_dude wrote: »

PETA have an article of how you should feed your dog and cat a vegan diet. Be warned, as with many PETA articles, it makes for scary reading.

I think a good rule of thumb is to take what PETA have to say on board, and then do the exact opposite

Knine

I don't eat meat or fish. My kids and dogs are all carnivores. I have no issue feeding them meat. My daughter says she loves bacon too much to be vegetarian.

Dandelion6

Vegetarian now, former vegan. No problem feeding my cats meat. They need to eat it. I don't.

The Bishop Basher

My wife and daughter are vegetarian. Myself and my other daughter aren't. We have 2 dogs and both eat meat. We all coexist very happily :-)

Feeding dogs and especially cats a vegetarian or vegan diet is a denial of the biological facts and is nothing short of animal neglect / cruelty.

loveisdivine

I probably fall into the second stereotype you described. I'm happy to promote veganism in the same way meat consumption is constantly pushed in our faces through advertisement.

I believe meat is murder, for humans. My cat isn't human. I feed her a very high quality organic wet meat food with no animal by products or meat derivatives. However, sometimes I wonder how fair it is that so many other animals should die, just so my cat can live. Statistically if I were simply trying to reduce suffering, I would choose the lives of the many other animals over the life of my 1 cat, but that's obviously not something I would be able to do! I guess I do sometimes feel guilty for it but what can I do, I'm not gonna give her up.

To be honest, I'd like to be able to feed her wild caught meat of the kind she would naturally eat. I don;t enjoy supporting an industry I loathe, but I'm not currently aware of any other ways to obtain meat that is safe for consumption and nutritionally complete without buying a commercial food.

Just to add, I know you said you're not anti-vegan but your post is full of accusatory comments about what vegans are like.

kathleen37

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by this;

"I feed her a very high quality organic wet meat food with no animal by products or meat derivatives."

You've mentioned meat but then say no animal by products or meat derivatives?

If that's an error and you do feed meat to your cat, even though you are a vegan then I heartily agree with you.

I've not eaten meat for years and years now, but always feed my pets meat if they need it.

Nody

kathleen37 wrote: »

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by this;

"I feed her a very high quality organic wet meat food with no animal by products or meat derivatives."

You've mentioned meat but then say no animal by products or meat derivatives?

If that's an error and you do feed meat to your cat, even though you are a vegan then I heartily agree with you.

I've not eaten meat for years and years now, but always feed my pets meat if they need it.

Animal by products and meat derivatives refers to what's written on the can; example below:

RC Sterilized pouch wrote:

Ingredients
Meat and meat by-products, grain, eggs and egg products, vegetable by-products, minerals, sugar

This is unspecified meat and what type of meat; i.e. you have no idea what they throw in.

Applaws Chicken wrote:

Chicken Breast: chicken breast (75%), rice (1%), stock (24%).

In this case you can see exactly what meat and part is in the food. That's what the poster is referring to; they pick quality products with known meat sources rather than unspecified meat and part of animal (in general unspecified meat and type tend to be lower quality products).

kathleen37

Nody wrote: »

Animal by products and meat derivatives refers to what's written on the can; example below:

This is unspecified meat and what type of meat; i.e. you have no idea what they throw in.

In this case you can see exactly what meat and part is in the food. That's what the poster is referring to; they pick quality products with known meat sources rather than unspecified meat and part of animal (in general unspecified meat and type tend to be lower quality products).

Sorry, I know what they are, it's just the "wet meat food with no animal by products or meat derivatives" which confused me.

I should have used the bold on the no before, soz.

Actually - perhaps I don't know what they are - are you saying that there should be a specific "animal by product" or "Meat derivatives" label on pet food? I always took meat to be an animal by product. So for example if a tin is labeled chicken, I never thought that meant they couldn't have feet or beaks in it - if you get what I mean?

Nody

kathleen37 wrote: »

Sorry, I know what they are, it's just the "wet meat food with no animal by products or meat derivatives" which confused me.

I should have used the bold on the no before, soz.

I'm not seeing what's to be confused about; same sentence:

"wet meat food with no:

• animal by-products
• meat derivatives"

So she's feeding meat (as noted in her post) but the meat has to be specified and not animal by-products (i.e. the stuff left behind).

kathleen37

Nody wrote: »

I'm not seeing what's to be confused about; same sentence:

"wet meat food with no:

• animal by-products
• meat derivatives"

So she's feeding meat (as noted in her post) but the meat has to be specified and not animal by-products (i.e. the stuff left behind).

Sorry, just edited above post.

Nody

kathleen37 wrote: »

Actually - perhaps I don't know what they are - are you saying that there should be a specific "animal by product" or "Meat derivatives" label on pet food? I always took meat to be an animal by product. So for example if a tin is labeled chicken, I never thought that meant they couldn't have feet or beaks in it - if you get what I mean?

If it says chicken anything goes from beak to feathers but in general meat derivatives means you don't even know from what animal it comes which implies the company is buying the cheapest **** on the market (same if they state poultry rather than chicken) which would be the scraps from the floor up in quality. The fact they can't specify the meat source (which I'd have as minimum level) is what should make you suspicious; after all a pet food producer should not have problem with sourcing one type of meat regularly after all for a given product.

kathleen37

Nody wrote: »

If it says chicken anything goes from beak to feathers but in general meat derivatives means you don't even know from what animal it comes which implies the company is buying the cheapest **** on the market (same if they state poultry rather than chicken) which would be the scraps from the floor up in quality. The fact they can't specify the meat source (which I'd have as minimum level) is what should make you suspicious; after all a pet food producer should not have problem with sourcing one type of meat regularly after all for a given product.

Thanks. I hadn't realised. I guess I thought most pet foods were full of unmentionables, so I try to use meat or fish for the critters

loveisdivine

Nody explained it there for me. To be specific, I feed her Lilys Kitchen Chicken Parfait. The ingredients are relatively simple

Freshly Prepared Chicken: Meat, Liver, Heart, Kidneys (70%), Flaxseed Oil (0.5%), Spirulina, Minerals and Vitamins, Natural Cassia Gum.

Also, they don't test any of their products on animals and they don't use any factory farmed meats.

I figure if I'm going to do a 180 on my ethics for my cat, then I should at least fork out for a decent, responsibly sourced food.

Cherry Blossom

Loveisdevine, how do you know they don't use battery chicken? It's just that I had assumed all chicken in pet food would have been battery chicken?

ElKavo

I have heard of a few dogs on Vdog type foods with no adverse reactions, one in particular, is under monthly veterinary checks for over a year and has had no side effects. However I have not done enough research on the subject to be an authority. All existing literature that I have seen suggests plant based diets are not acceptable. However dogs are omnivores. That being said though, having a reliance on an already under pressure resource (Meat / Fish) may not be the wisest of options. I would imagine, that more research that is done in the area will yield acceptable alternatives for the feed sources of our buddies :-)

"Dogs can be healthy and in fact, thrive on a vegetarian or vegan diet, as long as all necessary nutrient requirements are met. Dogs are biologically omnivorous, but can adapt well to a plant-based diet which meets all their nutritional needs. It's important that the food be digested easily as well as have good palatability. One of the most common ailments in dogs is skin allergies, which may sometimes be due to food allergy. Much of the time a dog has a food allergy it is to a meat protein such as beef, chicken, or one of the other common meat sources. Vegetarian diets may bring these food allergic dogs relief from their skin allergies."

By Armaiti May, D.V.M, C.V.A. of Dr. May's Veterinary House Calls

And the full article can be found here...

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vegan_dogs

Tar.Aldarion

I am vegan but would feed my cat meat.The way things are now you are risking a cats life by feeding it a plant based diet, they are not as simple as us in this regard, or a dog for that matter - which can easily be fed vegan healthily.
Many cats have died from vegan diets, or had dramatically decreased life spans while being seemingly healthy. Is it possible for a cat to live on a vegan diet? Of course but at the moment you will be conducting research via an animal you have decided to look after because of human abuse/domestication, as well as having to get them constantly monitored and the signs of disease are unknown to the vet anyway as they may appear healthy, apart from any urinary tract issues. I know people working with feline health research and that is what they have basically agreed with as well. We are at a time where more study is needed to figure out what they should be eating. For cats it is not as simple as they need nutrient x, put that in their food, that often does not work as expected. A cat can get all the nutrients it needs in the food technical and still get sick and die, the composition matters a lot. "My cat eats ami and is healthy" doesn't cut it science wise for me, when it's been shown that it can take years for the effects to be known and of course some cats will be fine.

I want to feed my cat a vegan diet. It absolutely sucks that I have to feed her meat that came from other animals, I hate it, but I can't ignore her plight and health either, if anything we should be looking after these creatures and not letting them breed like mad. We have a responsibility to look after them after what humans did to them (domesticate), and that is to look out for their best interests. At the moment vegan diet formulae for cat food "cannot at this time be reliably assured" and when there is more research available in long term I will be changing to a vegan diet with my cat. I take my responsibiltiy seriously, my cat has had ECGs, takes beta blockers twice per day for her whole life based on results of an autopsy of her sister that died this year , I treat her as equal to anybody and I want the best for her, much to her chagrin :P

ElKavo

meathstevie wrote: »

BSE is a prime example of such.

Was there not a link found in relation to BOT fly treatments?

It was warble fly I was thinking about... quick search shows that theory was discredited. Carry on ;-)

loveisdivine

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Loveisdevine, how do you know they don't use battery chicken? It's just that I had assumed all chicken in pet food would have been battery chicken?

This is from their website

Do you use factory farmed animals in your pet food?

No. Our certified organic pet food range is your guarantee that animals have been reared to the highest level of care and welfare. Animals have open green fields to roam around in and are fed only on an organic diet. None of our meats have antibiotics in them - factory farmed animals are given very high doses of this to try and keep the levels of disease down.

Most products used in many pet foods come from factory farmed by-products; factory farmed animals live in poor conditions, with no access to the outside in extremely cramped conditions where disease is rife.

I'm pretty sure you can't raise battery chickens and be organic certified. You have to keep certain standards to be certified.

ganmo

Bse and similar diseases are not caused by vegetarian animals eating meat

I find it very strange that vegans keep pets at all. My understanding of veganism is they don't want to use animals for anything, is keeping pets for companionship not using animals?

ganmo

loveisdivine wrote: »

This is from their website



I'm pretty sure you can't raise battery chickens and be organic certified. You have to keep certain standards to be certified.

I think you can, use organic feed and 'enriched' cages

loveisdivine

ganmo wrote: »

I think you can, use organic feed and 'enriched' cages

I've tried to find confirmation of this but can't. However everything I've read confirms greater indoor space as less chickens are allowed per square metre and they all have access to the outdoors, so I doubt you can use enriched cages and give them access to the outdoors.

Cherry Blossom

On zooplus under the blurb about that food you use, it says the chickens are free run not free range. Free run chickens are barn raised and don't have any access to outdoors. With that said my granny had barn raised chickens and I've never had any issue at all with how they were kept.

ganmo

loveisdivine wrote: »

I've tried to find confirmation of this but can't. However everything I've read confirms greater indoor space as less chickens are allowed per square metre and they all have access to the outdoors, so I doubt you can use enriched cages and give them access to the outdoors.

I'll try and find where they set the standards, are you thinking of laying hens or broilers?

Shenshen

I'm not a vegan, just vegetarian, and I do feed my cats meat.
The way I see it, I have a choice of what I eat, and as with any choice, there's moral responsibility.
My cats (and pretty much all other animals) don't really have that choice. Their nature dictates their diet.
I've made a decision for myself, on my own choices. Not on anyone else's, and it certainly won't mean trying to force a creature that is bound by nature to follow my diet.

stillalive88

I'm surprised NOBODY knows this!

It's actually very black and white.

Cats CAN be easily vegan, dogs even more. It's relatively easy and they live up to full health, often better health than the pets that live off rendered meat, that has almost no nutritional value.

There are plenty of vegan pet owners around the world and there is a facebook group about it.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/126322004672/?fref=ts

All it takes is a little care and research. This is a group with 4000 people and lots of pictures of vegan animals.
And before anyone says "they're obligate carnivores, they'll die immediately": there is a LOT of people that had animals on a vegan diet living to their full health span with no complications.

I was surprised by this, didn't expect it could be like this. Most people is informed by this only from stereotypes and very very outdated information. I encourage everyone to do research on this.

It can be done and it's relatively easy.

No, you cannot feed your cat vegan if your idea of vegan cat is giving him/her a random dish of pasta or baked beans of course, there needs to be a little bit of research in the diet. But it can be done. And there are also commercial solutions for who doesn't have time to prepare the food.

No, they won't be sickly.
No, they won't die.
See for yourself, they do it with CATS and with dogs is even easier.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/126322004672/?fref=ts

loveisdivine

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

On zooplus under the blurb about that food you use, it says the chickens are free run not free range. Free run chickens are barn raised and don't have any access to outdoors. With that said my granny had barn raised chickens and I've never had any issue at all with how they were kept.

I see now that the chicken meal from the tin is not organic, only the chicken meal in the tray! I hadn't realised this, my mistake, in future I will only buy the fully organic trays.

Feel a bit stupid now

Cherry Blossom

No need to feel stupid at all! Barking heads changed their ingredients on me and I only realised when looking it up when someone mentioned it on here. Every time I am ordering food from now on I will look it up before I do even it's the same brand I got before.

the beer revolu

loveisdivine wrote: »

Also, they don't test any of their products on animals.

I'd be concerned about a company making pet food and not testing it on animals!

the beer revolu

ganmo wrote: »

I find it very strange that vegans keep pets at all. My understanding of veganism is they don't want to use animals for anything, is keeping pets for companionship not using animals?

I would find it strange and contradictory for a vegan to buy an animal from a breeder but rescue animals are a different matter entirely.

loveisdivine

Just wanted to come back to this thread and get a bit of advice.

After realising the food I was feeding isn't actually organic, I decided to switch to the organic variety from the same company. However it's quite a bit more expensive, so I started looking for other organic ones.

I came across a brand called Yarrah. They are fully organic and their ethos is that they don't agree with killing animals solely to feed our pets (which I can agree with) so they only use the "leftovers" from animals that go to make human food. Their website says they use stomach, heart, liver and kidney. Which is basically "meat and animal derivatives". I know hearts can be good for cats, but I've been of the opinion that I should avoid derivatives, am I wrong if its a select few of them and they are fully organic?

Here's the websites page explaining what they use. https://www.yarrah.com/en/yarrah/natural-ingredients/meat-and-animal-derivatives

Basically I'm in a position where I can't really afford the Lilys kitchen organic, so its either the Yarrah organic which is derivatives or this other stuff called Natures Menu which is not organic but doesn't contain any derivatives.

ganmo

hearts no issue, can be a tough muscle - should be used by human more (mmm roasted)
liver - very nutritious used to be the hunters prize, definitely should be used by humans(fried with rashers
kidney - from organic animals I'd have no issue with. they filter the blood so i have them as a lower quality food item (grilled/in a stew)

I've never eaten stomach so I don't know. I imagine would be tougher to digest but the other 3 are high in nutritional value(esp the liver) so maybe it adds balance

kylith

I'd have to do more rearch, but I'm not sure about feeding solely organ meat.

Kidneys are blooming delish though. If I get them I'm eating them!

Cherry Blossom

If you are considering feeding a food that is not organic anyway, why not just stick with the one you were feeding already?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that too much organ meat can cause complications. I'm not sure where, maybe it was in relation to raw diets somewhere.

Nody

loveisdivine wrote: »

Just wanted to come back to this thread and get a bit of advice.

After realising the food I was feeding isn't actually organic, I decided to switch to the organic variety from the same company. However it's quite a bit more expensive, so I started looking for other organic ones.

I came across a brand called Yarrah. They are fully organic and their ethos is that they don't agree with killing animals solely to feed our pets (which I can agree with) so they only use the "leftovers" from animals that go to make human food. Their website says they use stomach, heart, liver and kidney. Which is basically "meat and animal derivatives". I know hearts can be good for cats, but I've been of the opinion that I should avoid derivatives, am I wrong if its a select few of them and they are fully organic?

Here's the websites page explaining what they use. https://www.yarrah.com/en/yarrah/natural-ingredients/meat-and-animal-derivatives

Basically I'm in a position where I can't really afford the Lilys kitchen organic, so its either the Yarrah organic which is derivatives or this other stuff called Natures Menu which is not organic but doesn't contain any derivatives.

My main problem with Yarrah is that they are high on the cereal content (which simply should not be there) as a cheap filler. Taking Yarrah Organic Pâté for example it's 23% cereals to make it cheaper. Taking Chicken with Nettle & Tomato in sauce you have 37% meat* and animal derivatives* (chicken* 33%), with unspecified cereals* which is going to be in the low 30s most likely.

Simply put while I'm all for organic it should not come at the expense of lowering the quality of the food. Cats are not omnivores, they do not process plant protein in a good way compared to proper meat protein and that amount of filler should not be there imo.

stillalive88

Nody wrote: »

My main problem with Yarrah is that they are high on the cereal content (which simply should not be there) as a cheap filler. Taking Yarrah Organic Pâté for example it's 23% cereals to make it cheaper. Taking Chicken with Nettle & Tomato in sauce you have 37% meat* and animal derivatives* (chicken* 33%), with unspecified cereals* which is going to be in the low 30s most likely.

Simply put while I'm all for organic it should not come at the expense of lowering the quality of the food. Cats are not omnivores, they do not process plant protein in a good way compared to proper meat protein and that amount of filler should not be there imo.

Please look it up cats can survive healthily on a vegan diet. See my previous post. There are owners worldwide, hundreds of them, with healthy cats, it's just nobody knows cause it's seems obvious they are "obligate carnivores"

Cherry Blossom

stillalive88 wrote: »

Please look it up cats can survive healthily on a vegan diet. See my previous post. There are owners worldwide, hundreds of them, with healthy cats, it's just nobody knows cause it's seems obvious they are "obligate carnivores"

You are going to have to do a whole lot better than a Facebook group for your evidence. I saw a post today about a dog that was throwing up blood and almost died after someone on a Facebook group said it was fine to give it ibuprofen.

Kovu

stillalive88 wrote: »

Please look it up cats can survive healthily on a vegan diet. See my previous post. There are owners worldwide, hundreds of them, with healthy cats, it's just nobody knows cause it's seems obvious they are "obligate carnivores"

Hundreds...worldwide. Not quite a convincing argument there tbh. :rolleyes:

stillalive88

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

You are going to have to do a whole lot better than a Facebook group for your evidence. I saw a post today about a dog that was throwing up blood and almost died after someone on a Facebook group said it was fine to give it ibuprofen.

If you want to say arbitrarily that I'm wrong do so, but I would request of you to approach this with an open mind and actually check on this.

I don't know what more I can give you, the science is there, I am just giving you empirical anecdotal data.

I don't own a lab or anything of the sort.

DBB

Kovu wrote: »

Hundreds...worldwide. Not quite a convincing argument there tbh. :rolleyes:

Hundreds of cat owners must represent a LOT of zeroes after the decimal point!

I'd like to see the peer-reviewed research paper (abstracts will do) to support the assertion that cats do fine on a vegan diet. I'm afraid anecdote comes nowhere near cutting it for me.

stillalive88

DBB wrote: »

Hundreds of cat owners must represent a LOT of zeroes after the decimal point!

I'd like to see the peer-reviewed research paper (abstracts will do) to support the assertion that cats do fine on a vegan diet. I'm afraid anecdote comes nowhere near cutting it for me.

Do I really have to reply to this?

Ok fine. You decided it's not true. Go with it. Don't look into it. Just leave it there. You know best. Don't even think to check on it.

Cherry Blossom

If the science is there then post some links to it please.

Alun

That's the great thing about the Internet. Regardless of the veracity of your argument, or the scientific basis behind it, if you Google it for long enough you'll find a group of people who agree with you. Contrary to popular belief, that's not the definition of "research".

kylith

Why would you even get a carnivorous pet if you weren't prepared to feed it meat? I wouldn't get a rabbit and make it eat steak because I don't want to eat vegetables.

DBB

stillalive88 wrote: »

Do I really have to reply to this?

Ok fine. You decided it's not true. Go with it. Don't look into it. Just leave it there. You know best. Don't even think to check on it.

Okay, you've convinced me with your compelling, logical and politely delivered point!
Yes, it ALWAYS works when someone tries to convince an ignoramus like me by telling me something that's the exact opposite of what ALL the research has told us, tells me there's scientific proof for it, and then tells me to look it up myself!
Brilliant! I wish I'd thought of that myself!
Links to research papers please? Surely not too much to ask if you really want to convince people that what you say is true... You were the one that brought it up after all