Vegans who own carnivores

DBB

Alun wrote: »

That's the great thing about the Internet. Regardless of the veracity of your argument, or the scientific basis behind it, if you Google it for long enough you'll find a group of people who agree with you. Contrary to popular belief, that's not the definition of "research".

What? WHAT?
But... But... Facebook!:o

I just caught a snippet of a radio programme today where a vet was answering questions and the bit I heard happened to be about feeding animals vegan. He said some dogs do fine on a vegan diet but that cats do not. He sounded pretty adamant on that point to me.

RhubarbCrumble

Somewhat off topic but a friend of mine is a strict (somewhat headwrecking if I'm honest) vegan. Her boyfriend is a butcher! I have absolutely no idea how they're still together.

loveisdivine

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

If you are considering feeding a food that is not organic anyway, why not just stick with the one you were feeding already?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that too much organ meat can cause complications. I'm not sure where, maybe it was in relation to raw diets somewhere.

To be honest she seems bored of it, when I put the bowl down she's not as enthusiastic as she used to be. I can't blame her though, she's had the same food/flavour everyday for months. I wanted to be able to give her different flavours, to keep it interesting. The odd occasion she's had something different she's wolfed it down.

Just on the vegan cats things, I have done quite a lot of research on the internet about it, but I'm just not convinced. The only evidence is anecdotal, it's all hearsay. Just because there's some facebook groups or someone on a forum declares it to be perfectly fine, doesn't mean I'm going to risk the health of my cat.

There's a point vegans (including myself) like to make which is that if you put an apple and a chicken infront of a child, it's natural reaction would be to eat the apple and play with the chicken. Well lets use that logic here, if I put an apple and a chicken infront of my cat, she's gonna boop the apple around a bit and stalk/kill the chicken.

Speedwell

stillalive88 wrote: »

Do I really have to reply to this?

Ok fine. You decided it's not true. Go with it. Don't look into it. Just leave it there. You know best. Don't even think to check on it.

When I lived in America, my cats were always seen by the vets at Memorial Cat Hospital, a dedicated cat veterinarian's office with very high-powered, well-qualified, respected vets who were pioneers in scientific research and members of the Winn Feline Foundation. Two of my cats were study participants.

I was a vegan for part of the time that my cats were patients there, and I asked the vets about the possibility of a vegan diet for cats. No, they said, it was impossible to provide a purely vegan diet because it lacked essential nutrients that could only be sourced from meat. Even commercial "vegan" cat foods, in order to be complete in nutrition, had to supplement with these meat-derived substances. Homemade vegan foods also had to be supplemented in this way.

Cats fed primarily plant foods (including cats fed cheap grain-heavy grocery-shelf cat foods) tend in particular to have urinary tract trouble that can be severe and even life-threatening, because plant foods tend to make the urine alkaline in contrast to the acidity of a meat diet. As a human who sometimes suffers from alkaline urine myself, I personally know how painful and dangerous such a condition is. There are, to be sure, plant foods that tend to acidify the urine, but since many of those foods are high in oxalic acid, the possibility of urinary tract obstruction due to that kind of stone is also high. Dr. Armaiti May, in an article on veganhealth.com, says, "For cat guardians who find it too tedious to monitor their cat's urine pH, they should perhaps consider feeding a non-vegetarian cat food or not keeping a cat as a companion".

If the cat is ill and needs to be on a special diet, it is going to be even less likely that the proper diet is going to be a meat-free one. Prescription diets are not meat-free. If the cat requires an overnight stay at the vet, such as might happen with surgery and recovery, it is unlikely the vet will consider a vegan food adequate for the cat's nutritional needs. Kittens and senior cats also have increased nutritional needs that are unlikely to be met by vegan foods.

Cats fed vegan diets for the first time often refuse their food. It takes only two or three days of food refusal, or a little longer of partial food refusal, for a cat to develop a critically serious condition called hepatic lipidosis. In essence, the cat's liver enters a cycle of attempting to maintain blood glucose that causes damage to the cat's body. They turn jaundiced and must often be force-fed because the condition itself makes them feel very unwell. Two years ago I had two cats with this condition at the same time after a neighbor "forgot" to feed them while I was away. It cost a total of five thousand dollars, with five pills twice a day, a feeding tube for one cat, and six-daily force feedings for both cats for a month before they showed sustained improvement (not to mention the time I had to take off work). One cat fought pancreatitis as a complication. They both lived, because we used a mixture of established and experimental treatments, but few cats survive this.

It is possible to be a human vegan by eating chips and drinking Coke. Some people might not suffer any unusual health problems from a diet like that for a very long time, if ever. It might improve health in the rare event a person is allergic to something normally found in healthy diets. Vegan diets for cats are like that. They're very bad for cats in general, no matter what they might do for this cat or that cat in specific.

stillalive88

Ok guys please think for a second.
The research system needs FUNDS to work.

Who has funds into making research to prove cats can be vegan?
Why such tenacity into denying anecdotal evidence? Do you need scientific research to see that your dog has emotions?
Did you ever need a scientific paper to prove that your cat purrs when you cuddle it?

And most of all, if a cat lives VEGAN from BIRTH to 13 years of age in good health, are we so hardwired to ignore that and call it an opinion, or is it proof?
One cat survives as vegan, ok call it coincidence or weird genetics. Two survive, call it still coincidence. 10. 100. Hundreds. Do they need to be MILLIONS before you say "Ok MAAAYYYYYBEEE it's possible?". Considering we are brainwashed to automatically reply "obligate carnivore!!!111ONEONEONE", is it hard to understand just why there are only a few hundred (that, I remind you, is a ****ing lot) people that signed up to facebook, thought of looking for a group of vegan cat owners, found it and signed up to it.

There is some science around but, guys, I have made this research time ago, I don't have links saved and I need to work. I can't do the job for you and you will just dismiss me anyway.

Do you ACTUALLY care about this? Do your own research. But do it, don't be lazy. And do remeber that research papers are FUNDED and lots of them "proved" stuff that was lately proven to be false. Just research into that as well. Look how many fraudolent research papers have been published and how "respectable and scientific" they were.
Resaerch papers don't obligatorily mean much, and there is peer review on top of that, and lots of things to know to understand it anyway. Some universities still use outdated information. Doctors don't even study nutrition most of the time. Some vets kill animals, some are known to be very bad. There are still phisicians that tell you, YOU CANNOT SURVIVE on a vegan diet. And our "anecdotal" knowledge tells us we can.
So be a little daring and do it, do some research, find the info.

I have no trouble anymore, whatsoever of whatever kind, in knowing that a cat CAN be vegan, and knowing WHAT are the possible risks and problems. I know. It's a relatively new thing, who does it could still be considered a pioneer, but it's being done, IT'S HAPPENING AND IT'S NOT OPINION.

Unless you are telling me it's all a giant conspiracy with people putting up pictures of healthy cats and fake stories just to... well I don't know what the possible purpose could be. We just hate the animal feed industry that much, maybe...??????

Note: Vegan cats are not as easy as vegan dogs and require extra attention on the diet. It can be done. They are healthy. If done lazily and stupidly it can bring to their urinary tract getting congested, and their death so if you decide to do this, do your research.


@Speedwell: No meat derived substances are necessary for vegan cat nutrition. None. Taurine is added in, just as it is added in the "normal" meat foods, as the meat is "rendered" and loses basically every nutritional content.

And I am specifically talking about HEALTHY cats, healthier than the ones on meat, as the canned food is so poor they have very little to work with.
You are basically just saying everything that happens when ones gives a cat a random plant diet without putting any effort in it.

boomerang

I'm doing a module on cat nutrition for an ISFM distance learning course at the moment, and this was my response to a question on vegan diets for cats. Anyone who wants the footnotes, feel free to ask.

Unlike dogs and people, cats are obligate meat-eaters; every aspect of their physiology and behaviour reflects this. In fact, cats need 2-3 times more protein than dogs and this need cannot be met by plant protein alone. A quick internet search provides countless, clear, science-based arguments as to why a vegetarian diet is thus inappropriate for cats. Only a few search results will advocate a meat-free diet for cats. These proponents are mostly the manufacturers themselves, who obviously have a vested interest in promoting the idea. Some even make hazy claims that a vegetarian diet “gives the cat more vitality.” More truthfully, these diets are produced to allay the ethical concerns of vegan and vegetarian cat owners, not to promote cat health. Indeed vegetarian diets do not support optimal health and can be very dangerous.

Digestibility: Even if a vegetarian cat food meets the percentage protein requirements with plant sources, it is open to question if these ingredients are as easily digested and absorbed by the cat as the animal protein they are designed to eat. Likewise, vets have been suggested that vegetarian diets for cats are too high in carbohydrates such as potato or rice, that cats have not evolved to process.

Risk of FLUTD: Anecdotal reports suggest that cats fed a vegetarian diet have a higher risk of feline lower urinary tract disease than conventionally-fed cats, due to their abnormally alkanised urine. Urine pH should be checked twice-yearly.


Nutritional deficiencies: Cats get essential nutrients from meat that can't be sufficiently obtained from vegetarian ingredients. These include the amino acids taurine and arginine, and the vitamins A, D and some B vitamins. Deficiencies in these and other nutrients can be severely debilitating, or even fatal. Vegetarian diets compensate for their absence by adding synthetic versions of these and other nutrients. At least one vet has questioned if such formulations are as easily absorbed as “the real thing.” Moreover, a 2004 study of two American commercial vegan diets found that both were nutritionally deficient. The manufacturer's subsequent reassurances that the ten to twenty thousand dogs and cats being fed their vegetarian brand are healthy and long living rings hollow.According to the 2012 US Census Bureau, the pet cat population in the USA is 74 million. Not only that, but these vegetarian diets are a new phenomenon and very few studies have been carried out to test if they can be safely endorsed.

In short, quoting vet Jean Hofve,

“The truth is that science just doesn’t know enough about the cat’s nutritional needs to ensure the long-term safety of vegetarian and vegan diets for cats. While there are many anecdotal tales of cats thriving on vegetarian and vegan foods, it is a path that requires great commitment and a willingness to be flexible on the part of the guardian.”

ganmo

Oh so vegan groups don't have money to commission research? I must be imagining all them farming = bad ads around Dublin.

Cherry Blossom

I can't survive on a vegan diet, I know this because I tried a vegetarian diet for 6 weeks. As it turned out I am allergic to a lot of the meat alternatives.

Speedwell

Shorter stillalive 88:

- Conspiracy theory similar to "people who sell vaccines are in it to spread disease so they can make money off pills".
- Fluffy new-age touchy-feely anti-science "you don't need research to prove looooove".
- Blatant misunderstanding of how numbers work in science.
- Lazy refusal to provide valid and credible research links to support the claim that vegan diets are, in general, healthy and good for cats.
- Accusation that conscientious cat owners who rely on biological and nutritional science don't really care about their cats.
- Fingers-in-both-ears refusal to acknowledge the science that knowledgeable, science-based cat owners have already provided in this thread.
- Invalid claim that doctors were wrong about vegan diets for humans being unhealthy, so they must be wrong about vegan diets for cats being unhealthy (this conclusion does not follow).
- Faith-based "I just know" claim that cats can be vegan.
- Accusations that science-based posters are arguing in bad faith and actuated by questionable motives.
- Outright counterfactual assertions.
- Claiming an argument is "basically" something that was actually never part of the argument at all.

(shrug)

DBB

Speedwell wrote: »

Shorter stillalive 88:

- Conspiracy theory similar to "people who sell vaccines are in it to spread disease so they can make money off pills".
- Fluffy new-age touchy-feely anti-science "you don't need research to prove looooove".
- Blatant misunderstanding of how numbers work in science.
- Lazy refusal to provide valid and credible research links to support the claim that vegan diets are, in general, healthy and good for cats.
- Accusation that conscientious cat owners who rely on biological and nutritional science don't really care about their cats.
- Fingers-in-both-ears refusal to acknowledge the science that knowledgeable, science-based cat owners have already provided in this thread.
- Invalid claim that doctors were wrong about vegan diets for humans being unhealthy, so they must be wrong about vegan diets for cats being unhealthy (this conclusion does not follow).
- Faith-based "I just know" claim that cats can be vegan.
- Accusations that science-based posters are arguing in bad faith and actuated by questionable motives.
- Outright counterfactual assertions.
- Claiming an argument is "basically" something that was actually never part of the argument at all.

(shrug)

This is what I wanted to say, but you say it better than I would
Spot on the money!

muddypaws

loveisdivine wrote: »

Just wanted to come back to this thread and get a bit of advice.

After realising the food I was feeding isn't actually organic, I decided to switch to the organic variety from the same company. However it's quite a bit more expensive, so I started looking for other organic ones.

I came across a brand called Yarrah. They are fully organic and their ethos is that they don't agree with killing animals solely to feed our pets (which I can agree with) so they only use the "leftovers" from animals that go to make human food. Their website says they use stomach, heart, liver and kidney. Which is basically "meat and animal derivatives". I know hearts can be good for cats, but I've been of the opinion that I should avoid derivatives, am I wrong if its a select few of them and they are fully organic?

Here's the websites page explaining what they use. https://www.yarrah.com/en/yarrah/natural-ingredients/meat-and-animal-derivatives

Basically I'm in a position where I can't really afford the Lilys kitchen organic, so its either the Yarrah organic which is derivatives or this other stuff called Natures Menu which is not organic but doesn't contain any derivatives.

I was of the understanding that no pet food companies raised and killed animals purely for pet food, that it is all from the human food chain. Do you have any links that other companies do indeed kill animals purely for pet food?

I wouldn't get too hung up on derivatives, a lot of people that raw feed use derivatives if you think about it, they feed necks, feet etc., its kind of why dogs and humans live so successfully together, the dogs eat the bits that we don't usually.

Kovu

In the case of animal derivatives, I'd take it to be the Category 3 items which are;

• Material which has previously been fit for human consumption.
• Parts of slaughtered animals which are fit for human consumption but which are not intended for human consumption for commercial reasons, or due to problems of manufacturing or packaging defects.
• Animal by-products derived from the processing of products intended for human consumption (e.g. degreased bones and greaves) which did not show any signs of disease communicable to humans or animals.
• Blood from non-diseased ruminants which did not show any signs of disease communicable to humans or animals.
• Catering wastes that contain products of animal origin, whether cooked or uncooked.

Stuff that goes into this category has to be of human quality (fit for consumption by us if we felt like it :pac:) so I wouldn't be too worried by the term derivatives.
This explains it pretty well!

stillalive88

boomerang wrote: »

“The truth is that science just doesn’t know enough about the cat’s nutritional needs to ensure the long-term safety of vegetarian and vegan diets for cats. While there are many anecdotal tales of cats thriving on vegetarian and vegan foods, it is a path that requires great commitment and a willingness to be flexible on the part of the guardian.”

Which means it CAN be done with some caution and care!
Now that we know it CAN be done can we all agree it is not science fiction? It is not some crazy scheme by vegans wanting to take over the world and killing all of your kitties?

Just cause it wasn't research enough YET on the academic level, doesn't mean that it doesn't already work in reality.
As many other important things haven't cause it's not profitable and therefore it is obvious as **** that nobody would fund it. Science is ongoing progress. Not all the information is already there. There is no real data supporting that it CANNOT be done. There is anecdotal information that it can, and now it has been a few decades. That is proof enough for me, if it worked for everyone that tried I don't see the need to wait. If all those cats got to the end of their natural lifespan in good health, I really don't see where the worry comes from.

I know however that vegans would love to feed their animal companions without supplying the meat industry with even more money, while keeping them safe of course.

There is a lot of information on how to do it and what to avoid so always do your own research before this.

And you guys really should look into what rendered meat is. You could feed your pet with chalk and sawdust and that would probably be almost as nutritious...

@Speedwell

Making fun of other people doesn't really make the discussion go forward and only proves you are not interested in the topic, which begs the question why do you speak about it as you do not want to verify or research any information yourself but just deny me basing your response on stereotypes. I am genuinely swamped from work so I cannot do research right now to give you the information straight away, and I don't remember off the top of my mind how much academic research there is on the subject. But I care about this, so I will be back.

This thread can do big damage as everybody is basically saying "well OBVIOUSLY we can't feed meat to our pets!!" but with very little information behind it. This could convince other people, basically just on hearsay, that it cannot be done, while it can. And that would be a pity.

Nody

stillalive88 wrote: »

This thread can do big damage as everybody is basically saying "well OBVIOUSLY we can't feed meat to our pets!!" but with very little information behind it. This could convince other people, basically just on hearsay, that it cannot be done, while it can. And that would be a pity.

No this thread has proven beyond any reasonble doubt that there currently is no reason to feed vegan diet because there is no scientific studies backing it up while there are plenty of scientific papers stating it is required.

All your post sums up to "Well it might be possible and therefor you should go vegan against all scientific evidence because they have not proven it's not 100% impossible" yet there are plenty of evidence to show vegan fed cats who have taken serious to life threatening damage from such attempts. So yes, you can feed vegan to your cat, you can also drive without a seatbelt for all your life or eat at Mc Donalds every day and be fine but to assume that it somehow applies to everyone or that it proves something is beyond stupid. Feed vegan and you have a very significant chance of inflicting life threatening issues on your cat but you might get lucky...

Cherry Blossom

Stillalive88 sorry if i've missed it if you have already said it somewhere, but do you own a cat?

awanderer

I do not know if cats can lead a healthy life on a vegan diet but, until that has been scientifically proven beyond doubt, isn't pushing a vegan diet on an animal that would be naturally inclined to eat meat a form of animal testing?

It is a genuine question. I do indeed have a lot of respect for people who are strong enough about their belief that animal shouldn't be hurt to satisfy humans, that they become vegan in a world that doesn't make it easy for them.

stillalive88

Nody wrote: »

No this thread has proven beyond any reasonble doubt that there currently is no reason to feed vegan diet because there is no scientific studies backing it up while there are plenty of scientific papers stating it is required.

All your post sums up to "Well it might be possible and therefor you should go vegan against all scientific evidence because they have not proven it's not 100% impossible" yet there are plenty of evidence to show vegan fed cats who have taken serious to life threatening damage from such attempts. So yes, you can feed vegan to your cat, you can also drive without a seatbelt for all your life or eat at Mc Donalds every day and be fine but to assume that it somehow applies to everyone or that it proves something is beyond stupid. Feed vegan and you have a very significant chance of inflicting life threatening issues on your cat but you might get lucky...

No. You are not listening to me.

It's not "it might be possible".

It has been done.
Multiple times. Again and again and again and again.
For a long time now.

And no, there is NOT enough proof to say it is harmful, if anything, the proof is so tiny it really doesn't say anything, and now that I'm searching I see a good amount of "pro" research papers as well as the contrary ones, as in most topics nowadays (cause of course it's never simple until the body of knowlege is really developed).

There isn't enough research to confirm it, but that's a different thing from saying that the research denies it. Just like GMO "are safe cause no research proves that they aren't". Definitely not, there isn't enough research so it's reasonable to assume they could be potentially unsafe. It's intuitive that you shouldn't produce genetically modified mosquitoes for example, do you really need "scientific research" to know it might end up in catastrophe? (I think it already has but I'm not up to date on that now)

Literally, I had a little time now and I'm looking through these so mentioned "studies" and they have a sample size of 8,30,20... Honestly, the facebook group has 3000 people in it. That's a way bigger sample and this is disturbing.

In simple words: almost no research has been done into this.
Doesn't prove it is impossible, in fact empirical evidence widely triumphs clrealy stating it is. They live healthily and reach old age. What possibly more do you want????


There is an article running around, copy pasted a bit everywhere, about a "kitten being fed vegan that died", because of course a cat is an "obligate carnivore". And turns out "the kitty’s owners had been feeding him a diet of potatoes, rice milk and pasta, rather than balanced, species-appropriate, meat-based nutrition.". That is NOT even one bit similar to what a vegan cat's diet should be! And there are articles like this everywhere. If that's the evidence against this, I can understand why you guys think it's so dangerous.

Or like that article about that ONE human baby that died because he was raised "vegan" by his parents, and turns out as always they just gave him soy milk or something of the sort and that was it. And of course they became the prime example of how all vegan parents are all over the world. Of course. Thank you, press.

---

I owned nine cats in total but having to move to Ireland I had to leave them to a relative. Well not all to the same person and not all in the same moment, all were rescues, and half of them I kept until somebody could adopt them, while 4 always stayed with me. I'm not going to "own" any cat until I go live in the countryside as I don't have the space for it, this area is dangerous and it would basically just be for my happyness and not a good life for the cat.

None of my cats were vegan as I was just beginning to be vegatarian at the time so I never thought about it. I know now personally a few people that feed their healthy cats a vegan diet, and plus there's that group, which is growing constantly.

Speedwell

stillalive88, please stop. We know you're an anti-science fanatic. Otherwise you are not convincing and we are not convinced by your "it's fine for humans so I'm going to inflict it on my cats" routine.

Ave Sodalis

stillalive88 wrote:

No. You are not listening to me.

No, you are not listening. A cat's body is not designed to be vegan. You're completely ignoring very basic physiology and your misuse of science is concerning. A Facebook page is not, and never will be science.

Kovu

And no, there is NOT enough proof to say it is harmful, if anything, the proof is so tiny it really doesn't say anything

There isn't enough research to confirm it,

Honestly, the facebook group has 3000 people in it. That's a way bigger sample and this is disturbing.

In simple words: almost no research has been done into this.

Oh seriously now, do you not see the issue here with the above! The reason that no research is being done is because not that many people are silly enough to want a cat and feel obliged to feed it a diet its body was not built for. If people are steadfast vegan, they should see that a carnivorous pet isn't for them. It's like me going down to the shed and feeding the cattle some lamb, attempting may be the better word there. The only way you'll get them to eat it is to disguise it, falsely leading it to believe that it's what they need to eat.
If we took one of these vegan fed cats and offed it a choice of meaty cat food or vegan, what are the chances it would go for the former.....like it has done for how many thousands of years.

4000 members, ok, that's cool However it's still Facebook. There's a group called 'Boobquake' with women showing off their cleavage to see if any tectonic movements follow. That has 4,542 members. Oh dear god no, we'll all die soon, take cover!!!

Speedwell

Kovu wrote: »

Oh seriously now, do you not see the issue here with the above! The reason that no research is being done...

The research is being done, and the OP refers to it in the last post. Sample sizes of a couple dozen cats are quite enough for medical research of this nature. I don't see any reason to starve and harm hundreds or thousands of cats to "prove" a well-understood nutritional principle. If new research were to be done to see what happened to humans when deprived of nutrients previously shown to be essential, and any humans were harmed by the research, it would be considered unethical in the extreme.

Capercaillie

A person want's to feed a vegan diet to an obligate carnivore like a cat, would it not be better to get an already vegetarian animal like a rabbit/guinea pig/goat!

DBB

"Kovu wrote: »

However it's still Facebook. There's a group called 'Boobquake' with women showing off their cleavage to see if any tectonic movements follow. That has 4,542 members. Oh dear god no, we'll all die soon, take cover!!!

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no connection?
I am outraged.

newacc2015

Ask any farmers about what happens to their cattle that are no longer fertile. They are too old to go to meat processing factory. So they are called "cannies". They are used to make pet foods, particularly canned food. Hence the name "cannies". Their meat is too tough for anything else.

Animals being used to make pet foods would end up in an incinerator if they werent used in pet foods.

Kovu

newacc2015 wrote: »

Ask any farmers about what happens to their cattle that are no longer fertile. They are too old to go to meat processing factory. So they are called "cannies". They are used to make pet foods, particularly canned food. Hence the name "cannies". Their meat is too tough for anything else.

Animals being used to make pet foods would end up in an incinerator if they werent used in pet foods.

Nah, a lot of the P grade cattle would go for processed meat, which is more to do with body condition and fat score. Certainly old dairy cattle would be in this grade, but Continental breeds wouldn't. They would not solely go for pet food, it would also be in your tinned steak/pies, cheaper stewing meat and mince.
A lot of cow meat is exported from Ireland as it is highly sought after in other countries, France for example, would term a cow carcass better quality than a heifer.

Gadgie

I'm a vegetarian/almost vegan, and I have no problem feeding my pets meat containing animal derivatives. Better they use the bits people don't want than kill any extra animals. All my pets have lived to a ripe old age.

Senna

Why risk a cats life to prove your own principles? Either don't get a cat or if you do have a cat, feed it a diet that will benefit it the most, in a proven manner.

stillalive88

Because, as I said before, there are no risks from a well balanced vegan diet, not for humans, not for dogs and not for cats.

I know you like to deny reality again and again and again, but there healthy vegan cats out there, and I left you proof of it, but you don't care.

You prefer to follow your silly stereotype. Well live life through stereotypes then, be free to do so.

If hundreds of vegan cat owners got their cats in full health, I really don't understand what prevents others from doing the same. It only magically applies to them? They found, by chance or coincidence, the only combination of random foods that allows a cat to stay alive while vegan? Is that what you think?

You know what, I will leave you the link again. Maybe instead of dismissing it, curiosity will have the best of you and you will actually check up on half of a thing that I said? You can never know. Anything is good to save more animals and get them out from the cruel hands of humans. Any money not going to the business helps us getting rid of this cruelty. I did NOT expect cats to survive a vegan diet as well, as OBVIOUSLY they are obligate carnivores, but I verified this and found myself surprised at the notion that they can actually thrive on it, and it's healthier than the rendered meat counterpart.

Vegan cat owners, with healthy cats. Ask them.

There are cats that lived to 20 years. "Oh but surely they are the exception!" - well go look and decide for yourself.


- A vegan cat, dying of malnourishment

peasant

stillalive88 wrote: »

If hundreds of vegan cat owners got their cats in full health, I really don't understand what prevents others from doing the same.

Might have something to do with the fact that "others" don't see the need to force their belief system and moral codes onto an innocent animal.

stillalive88

As you are forcing your belief that cats should eat (awful quality) tuna, beef and cereals? AS THEY WOULD IN NATURE?
Poor innocent animals being fed industry-created, antibiotics filled, rendered, completely nutritionally void, low quality canned food.
You should stop forcing your belief on those poor innocent animals and just leave them to hunt small animals as they should.
Oh, there's none of it you say, cause you keep them in an apartment? Or cause you're in the city? Tough luck.

By the way, there's a lady that mantains 19 vegan cats on her own, no problem to any of them. Actually a bigger sample than most "studies".
I guess in a few months they will all explode of obligate carnivorousness

peasant

stillalive88 wrote: »

Oh, there's none of it you say, cause you keep them in an apartment?

notice the nice "appartment" in the background

awanderer

stillalive88 wrote: »

As you are forcing your belief that cats should eat (awful quality) tuna, beef and cereals? AS THEY WOULD IN NATURE?
Poor innocent animals being fed industry-created, antibiotics filled, rendered, completely nutritionally void, low quality canned food.
You should stop forcing your belief on those poor innocent animals and just leave them to hunt small animals as they should.
Oh, there's none of it you say, cause you keep them in an apartment? Or cause you're in the city? Tough luck.

By the way, there's a lady that mantains 19 vegan cats on her own, no problem to any of them. Actually a bigger sample than most "studies".
I guess in a few months they will all explode of obligate carnivorousness

How can a person have 19 vegan cats? Surely for a cat to keep to a vegan diet it has to be "indoor only" ? Does that mean that lady keeps 19 cats 24/7 under one roof?

stillalive88

Hello? Are you actually reading what I write or are you just taking the piss?
I don't know HOW a person can have 19 vegan cats, ask her! She's on the group as well.
I do not know if they are in an apartment. I would bet a good resounding NO, cause that would be unmaneagable.

I was making a very SIMPLE point that most people keep their cats in houses/apartments, very few have the luxury of being in the countryside and almost all of those pets will be fed CANNED food containing meats that are not only toxic but completely ABSENT from their natural diet, and containing synthetic taurine as the RENDERED meat is devoid of most of its nutrition at that point. And on top of it lots of them put cereals, which everybody should know, are almost always so hard to digest for them and should therefore be avoided. There is no scientific basis in the pet foods you find around, but you don't bother with that cause it's the norm. And who wants to attack/discuss the norm? Attack the vegan, they sure are out of their minds! Abolishing cruelty on animals? Pffft! Not in my lifetime!

kylith

awanderer wrote: »

How can a person have 19 vegan cats? Surely for a cat to keep to a vegan diet it has to be "indoor only" ? Does that mean that lady keeps 19 cats 24/7 under one roof?

I do wonder how many vegan-fed cats are indoor only; I suspect that any left outdoors supplement their diet at every opportunity.

DBB

stillalive88 wrote: »

Hello? Are you actually reading what I write or are you just taking the piss?

Stillalive88, please mind your tone when posting here. You're welcome to argue your point, but it is a requirement that you do so without being rude nor combative.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
DBB

stillalive88

kylith wrote: »

I do wonder how many vegan-fed cats are indoor only; I suspect that any left outdoors supplement their diet at every opportunity.

I had cats in the open eating canned food for some time, before I was informed on any of this... they never missed a chance to supplement their diet!

Saw them eat whole birds... and they weren't starved they were a bit on the fat side already. It's like humans eating junk food, they end up eating a lot and they are still hungry in the end cause it's empty calories. Plus they have a natural tendency to prey.

Here again, ask them, they are the best to respond you, my experience with cats was cut off when moving here so I can only rely on the brave people that do research and carefully grow their cats on this new approach that is so, so, sooooo ill considered today. But they seem to be all happy of the results. If you want real information, go directly to them.

I find it a great luxury that it is possible to have a carnivore companion animal without being forced to fund the meat industry and their cruelty on animals. I didn't expect it to be possible with cats and it's a relief, after checking very carefully, to know that this is possible and is currently being done by many with great results.
There are veterinarians that are already on this side, but of course before the majority of the system agrees with a certain fact it takes time to prove it, prove it again, make it known, and so forth. Some resistance is to be expected.

We are, after all, affirming that a carnivore animal can live on a plant-based diet. Now how believable does this sound? Let's be honest, it sounds bonkers. But if there are people out there doing successfully, I cannot deny it. And I certainly find no issue in taking meat out of an animal's diet if the action results in no unhappiness and no health problems. "Natural" has never been a foundation to tell if something is "ethical". We do almost nothing in our life that is "natural".

Top of all: no, nobody is risking their animal's life to prove a principle. And that is quite a big offense towards a vegan. That is something a vegan just would never do. We follow a very simple moral code of not abusing, using or exploiting animals. Going against this would simply make us plant-based diet people.

Cherry Blossom

I've gone back to mid-December on that group stay alive 88. You had to go back a full month to find that picture and the owner only says it's a vegan cat, nothing about how long its on that diet. 80% of the posts are from people either thinking about changing or have recently started changin. The remainder are about skin issues, unsatisfactory urine tests etc. On your way to that photo you passed one of a white cat stretched out that looks very malnourished and unhealthy to me, which I won't post as I very much doubt the owner would give me permission to replicate here.

awanderer

stillalive88 wrote: »

Hello? Are you actually reading what I write or are you just taking the piss?
I don't know HOW a person can have 19 vegan cats, ask her! She's on the group as well.
I do not know if they are in an apartment. I would bet a good resounding NO, cause that would be unmaneagable.

I was making a very SIMPLE point that most people keep their cats in houses/apartments, very few have the luxury of being in the countryside and almost all of those pets will be fed CANNED food containing meats that are not only toxic but completely ABSENT from their natural diet, and containing synthetic taurine as the RENDERED meat is devoid of most of its nutrition at that point. And on top of it lots of them put cereals, which everybody should know, are almost always so hard to digest for them and should therefore be avoided. There is no scientific basis in the pet foods you find around, but you don't bother with that cause it's the norm. And who wants to attack/discuss the norm? Attack the vegan, they sure are out of their minds! Abolishing cruelty on animals? Pffft! Not in my lifetime!

I don't understand why you are being so aggressive. You say you know of a woman who keep 19 cats on a vegan diet. I wonder how it is possible logistically to do so ; so it seems logical to ask the question to the person able to provide that information: you.

I don't own a cat, I do live in the countryside (which is certainly not a luxury shared by very few) I do not know if a cat can be healthy on a vegan diet or not. I do not even know if a cat can be happy in an appartment. I certainly have nothing against vegans and I do not understand what in my post might have led you to believe otherwise. So, no I was not taking the piss, I had a question, it seemed logical to me that you would know the answer to that question, so I asked that question.

Senna

stillalive88 wrote: »

Top of all: no, nobody is risking their animal's life to prove a principle. And that is quite a big offense towards a vegan. That is something a vegan just would never do. We follow a very simple moral code of not abusing, using or exploiting animals. Going against this would simply make us plant-based diet people.

Yes there are, they are forcing an animal to go on a diet that is not their natural diet because of their own beliefs, people are posting a Facebook page as proof, but ignoring 99% of veterinary specialist who say a cat requires meat in their diet and supplements are not good enough. The cat is the innocent party that has to put up with its ridiculous owners agenda.
No one forced a vegan to get a cat, so why get one and force it on an un-natural diet that may not kill it straight away and may not shorten it's live but the important words are "may not", why risk its life? That's not a rhetorical question.

stillalive88

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I've gone back to mid-December on that group stay alive 88. You had to go back a full month to find that picture and the owner only says it's a vegan cat, nothing about how long its on that diet. 80% of the posts are from people either thinking about changing or have recently started changin. The remainder are about skin issues, unsatisfactory urine tests etc. On your way to that photo you passed one of a white cat stretched out that looks very malnourished and unhealthy to me, which I won't post as I very much doubt the owner would give me permission to replicate here.

Well that is all I wanted really, just for you to open it and check out for real. I hope you will stick around and speak to those people.
There are 109 pictures of almost all different cats just in the main album, plus a good amount of pictures posted in the timeline. The story of a lot of them is reported.

Not sure why you spelunked for that specific image of that one cat, I posted it cause it's just so awesome, it's an example amongst many, I was flicking through a lot of them as you noticed. But no there was no further reason to it, I just love the colours on that particular cat. Looks like the first cat I had. Still, the concept of the group is beautiful cause you can contact the owner and ask her directly

Yes there is a lot of people asking for advice and thinking about it, as well as so so many giving advice back and showing their stories, just look at all the responses. Also there's a lot of flaming from people mentioning the obligate carnivore rationale and pretty much everything that has been said so far here.

I did not see the unsatisfactory posts you are talking about but maybe I didn't go far back enough? I do remember something about one person that didn't manage to do it and gave up.
By the way this is important: nobody will or should ever FORCE the diet on the animal. You monitor the diet, you tweak it, you try it. If it doesn't work you leave it and that's what we do. No forcing happening. At any time. I can guarantee every single one of us is strongly against it and would never ever risk the life of a FRIEND. Same goes for humans experimenting on themselves. Nutrition is important.

Now if you give me clues about that one unhealhty looking cat I can give it a look. Just cause I'm curious. I'm not a veterinary so I'd hardly say I can judge if a cat is healthy from a picture with 100% accuracy.

@Senna

No one forced a vegan to get a cat, so why get one and force it on an un-natural diet that may not kill it straight away and may not shorten it's live but the important words are "may not", why risk its life? That's not a rhetorical question.

Look on my previous 2-3 posts there is a reply to this argumentation.
Also, most vegans don't "get" a cat, we don't "have" pets. Long explanation, I won't get into it now.
But long story short: usually we offer a home to cats that would otherwise be left to die or to a very miserable life.
Most cats sheltered by vegans are the result of a missing sterilization from other cat owners, usually abandoned kittens.

@Awanderer

Sorry if my reply seemed aggressive but I genuinely thought I was being taken for a fool as the question was very strange and so unrelated to everything going on right now. What is the relevance of the difficulty of having so many cats? There are people on this planet managing 15 or more cats, they are not generally looked in a good light, but I thought it was something of common knowledge?

I know of sanctuaries, I know of people giving a house to strays, I know some people that just cannot bear to have that one more kitty on the street and would rather offer him a home and protection than leave them there... it happens.
Do you really want me to contact her in private and ask her? I don't mind, I kinda have stuff to do but if you really don't want to look into it I'll do it for you and give you the reply. Will take me some time cause am in the middle of a lot of things, but I do care about this.

Cherry Blossom

I just looked up that ami cat food they are talking about, the first four ingredients are corn, corn gluten, corn oil and rice - these are all these terrible cereals you are talking about.

ganmo

stillalive88 wrote: »

Now if you give me clues about that one unhealhty looking cat I can give it a look. Just cause I'm curious. I'm not a veterinary so I'd hardly say I can judge if a cat is healthy from a picture with 100% accuracy.

This paragraph is the root of the argument.
You are not a vet, vets have given advice not to follow a vegan diet
You can't tell if a cat is healthy from a picture so there is a need for a proper scientific study with controls and proper blood/urine samples

SillyMangoX

stillalive88 wrote: »

And on top of it lots of them put cereals, which everybody should know, are almost always so hard to digest for them and should therefore be avoided

And what's in these vegan foods? Looking at one of the most popular brands on that group, first ingredient is corn, followed by corn gluten, corn oil and rice.
Another of the most popular: soya, wheat, Maize gluten, corn, rice.

So cereals = bad in normal meat based food, but okay in vegan food?
I'd much rather feed mine a high meat content grain free food rather that suffer through the itch and allergies that such high grain levels can bring to sensitive animals.

SillyMangoX

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I just looked up that ami cat food they are talking about, the first four ingredients are corn, corn gluten, corn oil and rice - these are all these terrible cereals you are talking about.

Lol snap!

stillalive88

"Corn, Corn gluten, corn oil, rice, pea protein, pea fiber, Brewer's yeast, dicalcium phosphate, linseed, hydrolysed vegetable protein, potato protein, sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, rapeseed oil."

You are right on this. I will do further research, I had taken for granted time ago that cereals were to be avoided, I might be wrong on this, or maybe not. I will not blindly stand in denial on one side, I do take things under consideration.

I must though insist on the fact that researching this is difficult and none of us is a vet. (is any of us a vet?)
And even the vets, some of them will advise towards solution A and others toward solution B and that should tell you that the science on this is still very wobbly. I know of terrible stories with bad vets as well as good ones, I know of vegan vets and non vegan vets (for obvious reason, the majority will be non vegan as we are wildly a minority yet), as I know of vegan phisician and non vegan phisicians. I still know of doctors in Italy that will tell you without meat you will die certainly...

My main point is and remains that these cats exist, they are alive, and they are in good health even according to veterinarian exams.
That is proof enough for me, and I know very well how "studies" are so often mistaken, have a second goal or are funded by the very same people that needs them to prove a point for them, so that is not where I put my trust. It's not conspiracy theories, there just have been way too many scandals in the last decades to trust them so blindly.

@SillyMango you might be right but do look more closely into what really is in those foods though. Do research on rendered meat, I beg of you. I remember when taking canned foods I would always take the grain free options... Even the meat for humans has serious problems. I do not know if pet food in europe contains euthanized pets as it does in the US. I'm ready to bet there are exporters from the US though selling here?

@Ganmo
As I have already said of course one should monitor the progress while trying these kind of things. Yes the way to monitor progress is to keep doing urine and blood exams to the cat while doing the new diet. The way you do that, is through a vet.
Every post I have read in the group so far mentioned satisfactory results after 1 month, 2 months, 6 months, 2 years...

MileyReilly

TG1 wrote: »

I was never a vegan but was a vegitarian for years while I had Bob, and also while I had two other short term dogs staying in the house I lived in.

I wouldn't even have thought of depriving them of meat, I was making a choice for myself knowing what the consequences of it were going to be but I couldn't make that choice for lives I was responsible for without knowing what the consequences were for them. They got meat and plenty of it!

What do you think the consequences of not eating meat would be? For you a human.

stillalive88

MileyReilly wrote: »

What do you think the consequences of not eating meat would be? For you a human.

I have been vegetarian 3 years and vegan for 1.
Didn't switch before just because I never met any vegetarian before then and I was firmly convinced you couldn't survive without the meat. Then I met the first vegetarian on my path and switched in a week, never went back.

Consequences for now are better mood, leaner phisique, increase in strength, better sleep quality and increased memory (I used to forget everything) but I think that is just a consequence of better sleep.
During the switch to vegan my digestion was weird for a few weeks, then it went back to normal.
Also I discovered a lot of foods I didn't know existed and have a much more varied diet. I'm eating stuff that is sooo much tastier now, you'd never believe me. Oh and about the tofu, I never tried it.

SillyMangoX

stillalive88 wrote: »

@SillyMango you might be right but do look more closely into what really is in those foods though. Do research on rendered meat, I beg of you. I remember when taking canned foods I would always take the grain free options... Even the meat for humans has serious problems. I do not know if pet food in europe contains euthanized pets as it does in the US. I'm ready to bet there are exporters from the US though selling here?

I've done quite a bit of research into pet foods, because of working an industry where I come across them a lot, as well as having a certain amount of training in nutrition and different brands of food, and generally Europe would have higher standards of regulation involved in these processes (from what I've come across anyway!) than the USA or Asian countries, even in regards to human food (Growth hormone, battery farms etc). Fair enough if a food states ''meat and animal derivatives'' it COULD contain euthanized pets, but without DNA testing on each batch or inspecting all ingredients on the manufacturing lot then it's a bit of a Schrodinger;s cat situation.
Even though I wouldn't feed a vegan diet, it's really important to me what goes into my cats, and I would only feed a food with stated ingredients. Therefore if it says fresh chicken, dehydrated chicken, chicken meat meal, you know it's coming from a chicken and not a dog!
Also the fact that the particular brand I feed states that it's all local produce in the FAQ's section, local being UK to them, I would be happy enough with the welfare standards (as they stand at the moment, of course animal welfare in general could always always stand to improve.) http://applaws.co.uk/about-us/faqs/

Ave Sodalis

stillalive88 wrote:

I must though insist on the fact that researching this is difficult and none of us is a vet. (is any of us a vet?) And even the vets, some of them will advise towards solution A and others toward solution B and that should tell you that the science on this is still very wobbly. I know of terrible stories with bad vets as well as good ones, I know of vegan vets and non vegan vets (for obvious reason, the majority will be non vegan as we are wildly a minority yet), as I know of vegan phisician and non vegan phisicians. I still know of doctors in Italy that will tell you without meat you will die certainly...

Can I just point out, most vets don't do the research? There are animal scientists who specialise in animal nutrition who do the vast majority of the research, and work with vets/feed companies etc.

Now I haven't done cat based nutrition, but I have done equine science which included multiple nutrition modules. What I can tell you is that you have not produced one credible shred of evidence which would stand up to scrutiny. Not one. You're argument is based on ancedotal evidence alone and that is simply not good enough. That woman you claim to have 19 cats... it doesn't matter if she has 100. If the cats are not all kept under similar, non-biased conditions, and nearly all other factors can be eliminated... then she may as well have none from a science point of view. If you're going to insist on arguing for a vegan cat diet, please stop trying to base it off science because you haven't produced a scientic argument. You have barely produced an evidenced argument. Your argument can be wittled down to "I believe", and personally, I don't find that a good enough reason to put any cat through a vegan diet.