Vegans who own carnivores

DBB

Speedwell wrote: »

Shorter stillalive 88:

- Conspiracy theory similar to "people who sell vaccines are in it to spread disease so they can make money off pills".
- Fluffy new-age touchy-feely anti-science "you don't need research to prove looooove".
- Blatant misunderstanding of how numbers work in science.
- Lazy refusal to provide valid and credible research links to support the claim that vegan diets are, in general, healthy and good for cats.
- Accusation that conscientious cat owners who rely on biological and nutritional science don't really care about their cats.
- Fingers-in-both-ears refusal to acknowledge the science that knowledgeable, science-based cat owners have already provided in this thread.
- Invalid claim that doctors were wrong about vegan diets for humans being unhealthy, so they must be wrong about vegan diets for cats being unhealthy (this conclusion does not follow).
- Faith-based "I just know" claim that cats can be vegan.
- Accusations that science-based posters are arguing in bad faith and actuated by questionable motives.
- Outright counterfactual assertions.
- Claiming an argument is "basically" something that was actually never part of the argument at all.

(shrug)

This is what I wanted to say, but you say it better than I would
Spot on the money!

muddypaws

loveisdivine wrote: »

Just wanted to come back to this thread and get a bit of advice.

After realising the food I was feeding isn't actually organic, I decided to switch to the organic variety from the same company. However it's quite a bit more expensive, so I started looking for other organic ones.

I came across a brand called Yarrah. They are fully organic and their ethos is that they don't agree with killing animals solely to feed our pets (which I can agree with) so they only use the "leftovers" from animals that go to make human food. Their website says they use stomach, heart, liver and kidney. Which is basically "meat and animal derivatives". I know hearts can be good for cats, but I've been of the opinion that I should avoid derivatives, am I wrong if its a select few of them and they are fully organic?

Here's the websites page explaining what they use. https://www.yarrah.com/en/yarrah/natural-ingredients/meat-and-animal-derivatives

Basically I'm in a position where I can't really afford the Lilys kitchen organic, so its either the Yarrah organic which is derivatives or this other stuff called Natures Menu which is not organic but doesn't contain any derivatives.

I was of the understanding that no pet food companies raised and killed animals purely for pet food, that it is all from the human food chain. Do you have any links that other companies do indeed kill animals purely for pet food?

I wouldn't get too hung up on derivatives, a lot of people that raw feed use derivatives if you think about it, they feed necks, feet etc., its kind of why dogs and humans live so successfully together, the dogs eat the bits that we don't usually.

Kovu

In the case of animal derivatives, I'd take it to be the Category 3 items which are;

• Material which has previously been fit for human consumption.
• Parts of slaughtered animals which are fit for human consumption but which are not intended for human consumption for commercial reasons, or due to problems of manufacturing or packaging defects.
• Animal by-products derived from the processing of products intended for human consumption (e.g. degreased bones and greaves) which did not show any signs of disease communicable to humans or animals.
• Blood from non-diseased ruminants which did not show any signs of disease communicable to humans or animals.
• Catering wastes that contain products of animal origin, whether cooked or uncooked.

Stuff that goes into this category has to be of human quality (fit for consumption by us if we felt like it :pac:) so I wouldn't be too worried by the term derivatives.
This explains it pretty well!

stillalive88

boomerang wrote: »

“The truth is that science just doesn’t know enough about the cat’s nutritional needs to ensure the long-term safety of vegetarian and vegan diets for cats. While there are many anecdotal tales of cats thriving on vegetarian and vegan foods, it is a path that requires great commitment and a willingness to be flexible on the part of the guardian.”

Which means it CAN be done with some caution and care!
Now that we know it CAN be done can we all agree it is not science fiction? It is not some crazy scheme by vegans wanting to take over the world and killing all of your kitties?

Just cause it wasn't research enough YET on the academic level, doesn't mean that it doesn't already work in reality.
As many other important things haven't cause it's not profitable and therefore it is obvious as **** that nobody would fund it. Science is ongoing progress. Not all the information is already there. There is no real data supporting that it CANNOT be done. There is anecdotal information that it can, and now it has been a few decades. That is proof enough for me, if it worked for everyone that tried I don't see the need to wait. If all those cats got to the end of their natural lifespan in good health, I really don't see where the worry comes from.

I know however that vegans would love to feed their animal companions without supplying the meat industry with even more money, while keeping them safe of course.

There is a lot of information on how to do it and what to avoid so always do your own research before this.

And you guys really should look into what rendered meat is. You could feed your pet with chalk and sawdust and that would probably be almost as nutritious...

@Speedwell

Making fun of other people doesn't really make the discussion go forward and only proves you are not interested in the topic, which begs the question why do you speak about it as you do not want to verify or research any information yourself but just deny me basing your response on stereotypes. I am genuinely swamped from work so I cannot do research right now to give you the information straight away, and I don't remember off the top of my mind how much academic research there is on the subject. But I care about this, so I will be back.

This thread can do big damage as everybody is basically saying "well OBVIOUSLY we can't feed meat to our pets!!" but with very little information behind it. This could convince other people, basically just on hearsay, that it cannot be done, while it can. And that would be a pity.

Nody

stillalive88 wrote: »

This thread can do big damage as everybody is basically saying "well OBVIOUSLY we can't feed meat to our pets!!" but with very little information behind it. This could convince other people, basically just on hearsay, that it cannot be done, while it can. And that would be a pity.

No this thread has proven beyond any reasonble doubt that there currently is no reason to feed vegan diet because there is no scientific studies backing it up while there are plenty of scientific papers stating it is required.

All your post sums up to "Well it might be possible and therefor you should go vegan against all scientific evidence because they have not proven it's not 100% impossible" yet there are plenty of evidence to show vegan fed cats who have taken serious to life threatening damage from such attempts. So yes, you can feed vegan to your cat, you can also drive without a seatbelt for all your life or eat at Mc Donalds every day and be fine but to assume that it somehow applies to everyone or that it proves something is beyond stupid. Feed vegan and you have a very significant chance of inflicting life threatening issues on your cat but you might get lucky...

Cherry Blossom

Stillalive88 sorry if i've missed it if you have already said it somewhere, but do you own a cat?

awanderer

I do not know if cats can lead a healthy life on a vegan diet but, until that has been scientifically proven beyond doubt, isn't pushing a vegan diet on an animal that would be naturally inclined to eat meat a form of animal testing?

It is a genuine question. I do indeed have a lot of respect for people who are strong enough about their belief that animal shouldn't be hurt to satisfy humans, that they become vegan in a world that doesn't make it easy for them.

stillalive88

Nody wrote: »

No this thread has proven beyond any reasonble doubt that there currently is no reason to feed vegan diet because there is no scientific studies backing it up while there are plenty of scientific papers stating it is required.

All your post sums up to "Well it might be possible and therefor you should go vegan against all scientific evidence because they have not proven it's not 100% impossible" yet there are plenty of evidence to show vegan fed cats who have taken serious to life threatening damage from such attempts. So yes, you can feed vegan to your cat, you can also drive without a seatbelt for all your life or eat at Mc Donalds every day and be fine but to assume that it somehow applies to everyone or that it proves something is beyond stupid. Feed vegan and you have a very significant chance of inflicting life threatening issues on your cat but you might get lucky...

No. You are not listening to me.

It's not "it might be possible".

It has been done.
Multiple times. Again and again and again and again.
For a long time now.

And no, there is NOT enough proof to say it is harmful, if anything, the proof is so tiny it really doesn't say anything, and now that I'm searching I see a good amount of "pro" research papers as well as the contrary ones, as in most topics nowadays (cause of course it's never simple until the body of knowlege is really developed).

There isn't enough research to confirm it, but that's a different thing from saying that the research denies it. Just like GMO "are safe cause no research proves that they aren't". Definitely not, there isn't enough research so it's reasonable to assume they could be potentially unsafe. It's intuitive that you shouldn't produce genetically modified mosquitoes for example, do you really need "scientific research" to know it might end up in catastrophe? (I think it already has but I'm not up to date on that now)

Literally, I had a little time now and I'm looking through these so mentioned "studies" and they have a sample size of 8,30,20... Honestly, the facebook group has 3000 people in it. That's a way bigger sample and this is disturbing.

In simple words: almost no research has been done into this.
Doesn't prove it is impossible, in fact empirical evidence widely triumphs clrealy stating it is. They live healthily and reach old age. What possibly more do you want????


There is an article running around, copy pasted a bit everywhere, about a "kitten being fed vegan that died", because of course a cat is an "obligate carnivore". And turns out "the kitty’s owners had been feeding him a diet of potatoes, rice milk and pasta, rather than balanced, species-appropriate, meat-based nutrition.". That is NOT even one bit similar to what a vegan cat's diet should be! And there are articles like this everywhere. If that's the evidence against this, I can understand why you guys think it's so dangerous.

Or like that article about that ONE human baby that died because he was raised "vegan" by his parents, and turns out as always they just gave him soy milk or something of the sort and that was it. And of course they became the prime example of how all vegan parents are all over the world. Of course. Thank you, press.

---

I owned nine cats in total but having to move to Ireland I had to leave them to a relative. Well not all to the same person and not all in the same moment, all were rescues, and half of them I kept until somebody could adopt them, while 4 always stayed with me. I'm not going to "own" any cat until I go live in the countryside as I don't have the space for it, this area is dangerous and it would basically just be for my happyness and not a good life for the cat.

None of my cats were vegan as I was just beginning to be vegatarian at the time so I never thought about it. I know now personally a few people that feed their healthy cats a vegan diet, and plus there's that group, which is growing constantly.

Speedwell

stillalive88, please stop. We know you're an anti-science fanatic. Otherwise you are not convincing and we are not convinced by your "it's fine for humans so I'm going to inflict it on my cats" routine.

Ave Sodalis

stillalive88 wrote:

No. You are not listening to me.

No, you are not listening. A cat's body is not designed to be vegan. You're completely ignoring very basic physiology and your misuse of science is concerning. A Facebook page is not, and never will be science.

Kovu

And no, there is NOT enough proof to say it is harmful, if anything, the proof is so tiny it really doesn't say anything

There isn't enough research to confirm it,

Honestly, the facebook group has 3000 people in it. That's a way bigger sample and this is disturbing.

In simple words: almost no research has been done into this.

Oh seriously now, do you not see the issue here with the above! The reason that no research is being done is because not that many people are silly enough to want a cat and feel obliged to feed it a diet its body was not built for. If people are steadfast vegan, they should see that a carnivorous pet isn't for them. It's like me going down to the shed and feeding the cattle some lamb, attempting may be the better word there. The only way you'll get them to eat it is to disguise it, falsely leading it to believe that it's what they need to eat.
If we took one of these vegan fed cats and offed it a choice of meaty cat food or vegan, what are the chances it would go for the former.....like it has done for how many thousands of years.

4000 members, ok, that's cool However it's still Facebook. There's a group called 'Boobquake' with women showing off their cleavage to see if any tectonic movements follow. That has 4,542 members. Oh dear god no, we'll all die soon, take cover!!!

Speedwell

Kovu wrote: »

Oh seriously now, do you not see the issue here with the above! The reason that no research is being done...

The research is being done, and the OP refers to it in the last post. Sample sizes of a couple dozen cats are quite enough for medical research of this nature. I don't see any reason to starve and harm hundreds or thousands of cats to "prove" a well-understood nutritional principle. If new research were to be done to see what happened to humans when deprived of nutrients previously shown to be essential, and any humans were harmed by the research, it would be considered unethical in the extreme.

Capercaillie

A person want's to feed a vegan diet to an obligate carnivore like a cat, would it not be better to get an already vegetarian animal like a rabbit/guinea pig/goat!

DBB

"Kovu wrote: »

However it's still Facebook. There's a group called 'Boobquake' with women showing off their cleavage to see if any tectonic movements follow. That has 4,542 members. Oh dear god no, we'll all die soon, take cover!!!

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no connection?
I am outraged.

newacc2015

Ask any farmers about what happens to their cattle that are no longer fertile. They are too old to go to meat processing factory. So they are called "cannies". They are used to make pet foods, particularly canned food. Hence the name "cannies". Their meat is too tough for anything else.

Animals being used to make pet foods would end up in an incinerator if they werent used in pet foods.

Kovu

newacc2015 wrote: »

Ask any farmers about what happens to their cattle that are no longer fertile. They are too old to go to meat processing factory. So they are called "cannies". They are used to make pet foods, particularly canned food. Hence the name "cannies". Their meat is too tough for anything else.

Animals being used to make pet foods would end up in an incinerator if they werent used in pet foods.

Nah, a lot of the P grade cattle would go for processed meat, which is more to do with body condition and fat score. Certainly old dairy cattle would be in this grade, but Continental breeds wouldn't. They would not solely go for pet food, it would also be in your tinned steak/pies, cheaper stewing meat and mince.
A lot of cow meat is exported from Ireland as it is highly sought after in other countries, France for example, would term a cow carcass better quality than a heifer.

Gadgie

I'm a vegetarian/almost vegan, and I have no problem feeding my pets meat containing animal derivatives. Better they use the bits people don't want than kill any extra animals. All my pets have lived to a ripe old age.

Senna

Why risk a cats life to prove your own principles? Either don't get a cat or if you do have a cat, feed it a diet that will benefit it the most, in a proven manner.

stillalive88

Because, as I said before, there are no risks from a well balanced vegan diet, not for humans, not for dogs and not for cats.

I know you like to deny reality again and again and again, but there healthy vegan cats out there, and I left you proof of it, but you don't care.

You prefer to follow your silly stereotype. Well live life through stereotypes then, be free to do so.

If hundreds of vegan cat owners got their cats in full health, I really don't understand what prevents others from doing the same. It only magically applies to them? They found, by chance or coincidence, the only combination of random foods that allows a cat to stay alive while vegan? Is that what you think?

You know what, I will leave you the link again. Maybe instead of dismissing it, curiosity will have the best of you and you will actually check up on half of a thing that I said? You can never know. Anything is good to save more animals and get them out from the cruel hands of humans. Any money not going to the business helps us getting rid of this cruelty. I did NOT expect cats to survive a vegan diet as well, as OBVIOUSLY they are obligate carnivores, but I verified this and found myself surprised at the notion that they can actually thrive on it, and it's healthier than the rendered meat counterpart.

Vegan cat owners, with healthy cats. Ask them.

There are cats that lived to 20 years. "Oh but surely they are the exception!" - well go look and decide for yourself.


- A vegan cat, dying of malnourishment

peasant

stillalive88 wrote: »

If hundreds of vegan cat owners got their cats in full health, I really don't understand what prevents others from doing the same.

Might have something to do with the fact that "others" don't see the need to force their belief system and moral codes onto an innocent animal.

stillalive88

As you are forcing your belief that cats should eat (awful quality) tuna, beef and cereals? AS THEY WOULD IN NATURE?
Poor innocent animals being fed industry-created, antibiotics filled, rendered, completely nutritionally void, low quality canned food.
You should stop forcing your belief on those poor innocent animals and just leave them to hunt small animals as they should.
Oh, there's none of it you say, cause you keep them in an apartment? Or cause you're in the city? Tough luck.

By the way, there's a lady that mantains 19 vegan cats on her own, no problem to any of them. Actually a bigger sample than most "studies".
I guess in a few months they will all explode of obligate carnivorousness

peasant

stillalive88 wrote: »

Oh, there's none of it you say, cause you keep them in an apartment?

notice the nice "appartment" in the background

awanderer

stillalive88 wrote: »

As you are forcing your belief that cats should eat (awful quality) tuna, beef and cereals? AS THEY WOULD IN NATURE?
Poor innocent animals being fed industry-created, antibiotics filled, rendered, completely nutritionally void, low quality canned food.
You should stop forcing your belief on those poor innocent animals and just leave them to hunt small animals as they should.
Oh, there's none of it you say, cause you keep them in an apartment? Or cause you're in the city? Tough luck.

By the way, there's a lady that mantains 19 vegan cats on her own, no problem to any of them. Actually a bigger sample than most "studies".
I guess in a few months they will all explode of obligate carnivorousness

How can a person have 19 vegan cats? Surely for a cat to keep to a vegan diet it has to be "indoor only" ? Does that mean that lady keeps 19 cats 24/7 under one roof?

stillalive88

Hello? Are you actually reading what I write or are you just taking the piss?
I don't know HOW a person can have 19 vegan cats, ask her! She's on the group as well.
I do not know if they are in an apartment. I would bet a good resounding NO, cause that would be unmaneagable.

I was making a very SIMPLE point that most people keep their cats in houses/apartments, very few have the luxury of being in the countryside and almost all of those pets will be fed CANNED food containing meats that are not only toxic but completely ABSENT from their natural diet, and containing synthetic taurine as the RENDERED meat is devoid of most of its nutrition at that point. And on top of it lots of them put cereals, which everybody should know, are almost always so hard to digest for them and should therefore be avoided. There is no scientific basis in the pet foods you find around, but you don't bother with that cause it's the norm. And who wants to attack/discuss the norm? Attack the vegan, they sure are out of their minds! Abolishing cruelty on animals? Pffft! Not in my lifetime!

kylith

awanderer wrote: »

How can a person have 19 vegan cats? Surely for a cat to keep to a vegan diet it has to be "indoor only" ? Does that mean that lady keeps 19 cats 24/7 under one roof?

I do wonder how many vegan-fed cats are indoor only; I suspect that any left outdoors supplement their diet at every opportunity.

DBB

stillalive88 wrote: »

Hello? Are you actually reading what I write or are you just taking the piss?

Stillalive88, please mind your tone when posting here. You're welcome to argue your point, but it is a requirement that you do so without being rude nor combative.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
DBB

stillalive88

kylith wrote: »

I do wonder how many vegan-fed cats are indoor only; I suspect that any left outdoors supplement their diet at every opportunity.

I had cats in the open eating canned food for some time, before I was informed on any of this... they never missed a chance to supplement their diet!

Saw them eat whole birds... and they weren't starved they were a bit on the fat side already. It's like humans eating junk food, they end up eating a lot and they are still hungry in the end cause it's empty calories. Plus they have a natural tendency to prey.

Here again, ask them, they are the best to respond you, my experience with cats was cut off when moving here so I can only rely on the brave people that do research and carefully grow their cats on this new approach that is so, so, sooooo ill considered today. But they seem to be all happy of the results. If you want real information, go directly to them.

I find it a great luxury that it is possible to have a carnivore companion animal without being forced to fund the meat industry and their cruelty on animals. I didn't expect it to be possible with cats and it's a relief, after checking very carefully, to know that this is possible and is currently being done by many with great results.
There are veterinarians that are already on this side, but of course before the majority of the system agrees with a certain fact it takes time to prove it, prove it again, make it known, and so forth. Some resistance is to be expected.

We are, after all, affirming that a carnivore animal can live on a plant-based diet. Now how believable does this sound? Let's be honest, it sounds bonkers. But if there are people out there doing successfully, I cannot deny it. And I certainly find no issue in taking meat out of an animal's diet if the action results in no unhappiness and no health problems. "Natural" has never been a foundation to tell if something is "ethical". We do almost nothing in our life that is "natural".

Top of all: no, nobody is risking their animal's life to prove a principle. And that is quite a big offense towards a vegan. That is something a vegan just would never do. We follow a very simple moral code of not abusing, using or exploiting animals. Going against this would simply make us plant-based diet people.

Cherry Blossom

I've gone back to mid-December on that group stay alive 88. You had to go back a full month to find that picture and the owner only says it's a vegan cat, nothing about how long its on that diet. 80% of the posts are from people either thinking about changing or have recently started changin. The remainder are about skin issues, unsatisfactory urine tests etc. On your way to that photo you passed one of a white cat stretched out that looks very malnourished and unhealthy to me, which I won't post as I very much doubt the owner would give me permission to replicate here.

awanderer

stillalive88 wrote: »

Hello? Are you actually reading what I write or are you just taking the piss?
I don't know HOW a person can have 19 vegan cats, ask her! She's on the group as well.
I do not know if they are in an apartment. I would bet a good resounding NO, cause that would be unmaneagable.

I was making a very SIMPLE point that most people keep their cats in houses/apartments, very few have the luxury of being in the countryside and almost all of those pets will be fed CANNED food containing meats that are not only toxic but completely ABSENT from their natural diet, and containing synthetic taurine as the RENDERED meat is devoid of most of its nutrition at that point. And on top of it lots of them put cereals, which everybody should know, are almost always so hard to digest for them and should therefore be avoided. There is no scientific basis in the pet foods you find around, but you don't bother with that cause it's the norm. And who wants to attack/discuss the norm? Attack the vegan, they sure are out of their minds! Abolishing cruelty on animals? Pffft! Not in my lifetime!

I don't understand why you are being so aggressive. You say you know of a woman who keep 19 cats on a vegan diet. I wonder how it is possible logistically to do so ; so it seems logical to ask the question to the person able to provide that information: you.

I don't own a cat, I do live in the countryside (which is certainly not a luxury shared by very few) I do not know if a cat can be healthy on a vegan diet or not. I do not even know if a cat can be happy in an appartment. I certainly have nothing against vegans and I do not understand what in my post might have led you to believe otherwise. So, no I was not taking the piss, I had a question, it seemed logical to me that you would know the answer to that question, so I asked that question.

Senna

stillalive88 wrote: »

Top of all: no, nobody is risking their animal's life to prove a principle. And that is quite a big offense towards a vegan. That is something a vegan just would never do. We follow a very simple moral code of not abusing, using or exploiting animals. Going against this would simply make us plant-based diet people.

Yes there are, they are forcing an animal to go on a diet that is not their natural diet because of their own beliefs, people are posting a Facebook page as proof, but ignoring 99% of veterinary specialist who say a cat requires meat in their diet and supplements are not good enough. The cat is the innocent party that has to put up with its ridiculous owners agenda.
No one forced a vegan to get a cat, so why get one and force it on an un-natural diet that may not kill it straight away and may not shorten it's live but the important words are "may not", why risk its life? That's not a rhetorical question.