Vegans who own carnivores

Cherry Blossom

Stillalive88 you have contradicted your self several times now on this thread. The more it goes on the more apparent it is that you have actually done no research yourself. You have been praising the benefits of vegan cat food when you didn't even read the ingredients and have never actually fed it to a cat yourself. You are also singing the praises of that Facebook and in all honesty you are reading it through rose tinted glasses. You are only seeing what you want to see and are not looking at it objectively. Despite telling the rest of us several times to approach the topic with an open mind, you yourself could not possibly be any more closed minded.

In summary, you have nothing solid at all behind your argument. I've nothing more to say on the topic. I've no interest in feeding grains and lettuce to carnivorous pets (There is actually a photo on that group of a cat with a container of salad leaves). Imho this is verging on ridiculous now and I'm out.

stillalive88

sup_dude wrote: »

Can I just point out, most vets don't do the research? There are animal scientists who specialise in animal nutrition who do the vast majority of the research, and work with vets/feed companies etc.

Now I haven't done cat based nutrition, but I have done equine science which included multiple nutrition modules. What I can tell you is that you have not produced one credible shred of evidence which would stand up to scrutiny. Not one. You're argument is based on ancedotal evidence alone and that is simply not good enough. That woman you claim to have 19 cats... it doesn't matter if she has 100. If the cats are not all kept under similar, non-biased conditions, and nearly all other factors can be eliminated... then she may as well have none from a science point of view. If you're going to insist on arguing for a vegan cat diet, please stop trying to base it off science because you haven't produced a scientic argument. You have barely produced an evidenced argument. Your argument can be wittled down to "I believe", and personally, I don't find that a good enough reason to put any cat through a vegan diet.

I agree with you in part, but I don't understand the bias of the 19 cats lady. If they are healthy, what is the bias? Where is the trick? Do you mean controlling if they are predating and therefore eating other animals, or do you mean something else?
Anyway if hunting was the, it would still be ok for a vegan, our concern is not to exploit animals so it is simply painful for us to buy the canned meaty foods as they fund an industry that we find unethical top to bottom.
I doubt that all these successes are just depending on the animals themselves hunting, but it's hard to check.
There have been unsuccessful tries as well, I have red of few but there have been. It seems that (just based on my own and others' experiences) about 90% of cats thrive on it but a 10% just can't. So you switch them back to meat and that's it... no forcing, no torture, no letting them die. Of course. And they don't risk it either, all the people I've heard having no success dropped it at the first sign of a problem. They really didn't want to risk it.

I don't have the money to produce a study and every time I research this animal nutrition topics I end up finding barely 4-5 papers of which some favourable some not. And not that recent either unfortunately. Scientifically what it seems to me is that the research is pretty much absent. Like we're not there yet at all. I know a few site where to look for research papers, but on this subject I really am coming up with so little.

Anecdotal evidence and "I believe" are very veeeery different positions.
I can believe I can survive without meat. Or I can do it and phisically prove that it is possible myself. With my own body. Is that the same thing as just believing it?

"Science" has told us for years milk was ohhhh so good, now there has been a massive U turn (did you notice?) in the last year and you will see an even stronger resonance in the future.

But yes, if we were to discuss about science and papers, you couldn't say there is CONCLUSIVE PROOF for a vegan cat diet being applicable. As there is no conclusive proof it isn't applicable.
There is just bits and pieces of information, tiny and very incomplete studies. We are stuck on that side, there just isn't enough research of the traditional kind. And there won't be for a long time unfortunately I'm afraid.
So I find it useless to discuss it on that site. I didn't see anything convincing against it as I didn't see anything sufficient for it either.

I never even mentioned that favourable study from 2006 on this topic because what would be the point. It has too small of a sample and only takes into accounts some substances and some factors, not all of it, as do the counter studies etc...

I am not replying or discussing on that site simply because I am not finding much real information for or against it.

P.s.: Yes of course vets don't do the research, they study on them though. And why would you trust researchers paid directly by feed companies? That is called conflict of interest in my country

@adrenalinjunkie
You'd be surprised at the amount of videos of cats eating anything between salad, broccoly, leaves of various kind... and they get pretty angry if you try to take it away from them. I honestly found that extremely weird myself, couldn't really believe it. I know it doesn't prove much and I know I cannot demostrate this SOLIDLY through science, but that's just cause there isn't much of it.
I myself have to go on critical sense and power observation, what else can I rely on? Can only do as much as give you solid proof though. Those vegan cats are real, eat a vegan diet, and are healthy so that's as much of a solid proof as I can give you. It's reality. You want the confirmation in theory I cannot give it to you, I only have confirmation through practice. It is enough for me, but I understand if you keep skeptical. After all, as I said, it does sound bonkers.

Dubl07

stillalive88 wrote: »

I have been vegetarian 3 years and vegan for 1.
Didn't switch before just because I never met any vegetarian before then and I was firmly convinced you couldn't survive without the meat. Then I met the first vegetarian on my path and switched in a week, never went back.

Consequences for now are better mood, leaner phisique, increase in strength, better sleep quality and increased memory (I used to forget everything) but I think that is just a consequence of better sleep.
During the switch to vegan my digestion was weird for a few weeks, then it went back to normal.
Also I discovered a lot of foods I didn't know existed and have a much more varied diet. I'm eating stuff that is sooo much tastier now, you'd never believe me. Oh and about the tofu, I never tried it.

Just wait till you meet a Breatharian. You'll never look back. :rolleyes:

stillalive88

Dubl07 wrote: »

Just wait till you meet a Breatharian. You'll never look back. :rolleyes:

Now that is just uncalled for. Btw, if anybody is wondering, my nickname doesn't come from the fact that I went vegan and survived

awanderer

stillalive88 wrote: »

@Awanderer

Sorry if my reply seemed aggressive but I genuinely thought I was being taken for a fool as the question was very strange and so unrelated to everything going on right now. What is the relevance of the difficulty of having so many cats? There are people on this planet managing 15 or more cats, they are not generally looked in a good light, but I thought it was something of common knowledge?

I know of sanctuaries, I know of people giving a house to strays, I know some people that just cannot bear to have that one more kitty on the street and would rather offer him a home and protection than leave them there... it happens.
Do you really want me to contact her in private and ask her? I don't mind, I kinda have stuff to do but if you really don't want to look into it I'll do it for you and give you the reply. Will take me some time cause am in the middle of a lot of things, but I do care about this.

No, you don't have to ask for me. As I said, I just asked because I thought you would know the answer.

My questions are never more than that. I do not believe in debates on the internet. Of course, I would like to know the answer to my question but it is certainly not a priority. As far as animals are concerned, my priority at the moment is how to make my unexpected foster dog as healthy and happy as possible without depriving my own dog of the attention he needs/deserves.

And yes, I do of course know about shelters, sanctuaries where lots of cats are kept in the same building but it is always a temporary solution while they look for a forever home for those cats.

Gael23

A dogs diet has to be based on meat being the key ingredient. Simple.

stillalive88

awanderer wrote: »

No, you don't have to ask for me. As I said, I just asked because I thought you would know the answer.

My questions are never more than that. I do not believe in debates on the internet. Of course, I would like to know the answer to my question but it is certainly not a priority. As far as animals are concerned, my priority at the moment is how to make my unexpected foster dog as healthy and happy as possible without depriving my own dog of the attention he needs/deserves.

And yes, I do of course know about shelters, sanctuaries where lots of cats are kept in the same building but it is always a temporary solution while they look for a forever home for those cats.

True.
Well I have to say when I had 6 cats we simply had a few shelters for them outside of the house, to keep them warm, we would let them come in and out if they wanted (small house in the countryside), and had bowls outside for them... food and clean water. That was all they needed, and they ran around all day in the countryside, would follow us on walk, etc.

With 19 you'd just need more bowls, more shelter, and quite a crowded house but it is definitely possible... after the first 1-2 cats. And of course is more expensive and would require more vet visits.
But put that same thing in an apartment, no I really don't think that would be possible at all.

@Gael23
PetMD -Vegetarian dogs?
Simple.
The vegan option
In the last link you'll find the only study that was basically ever really done on this... I haven't quoted it so far cause it doesn't feel strong enough, but might as well. No harm in sharing information.
Direct link
Quite small, but so is the rest. We are working on breadcrumbs cause there is not much monetary interest for it, so it's hard that it's going to happen. Would definitely be a disadvantage to most feed industries existing.

kylith

stillalive88 wrote: »

I have been vegetarian 3 years and vegan for 1.
Didn't switch before just because I never met any vegetarian before then and I was firmly convinced you couldn't survive without the meat. Then I met the first vegetarian on my path and switched in a week, never went back.

Well, then you know how much care a human, an omnivore, needs to take to ensure that their nutritional needs are met on a vegetarian diet. So extrapolate from that how much more care they need to take to ensure that they get their nutritional needs met on a vegan diet. Now extrapolate how much, much more care would need to be taken in order to try to ensure that an animal which hasn't evolved to eat any plant matter at all, ever, apart from when actually starving as a last-ditch attempt to not die, has its needs met.

Not to mention that you're assuming that a) the vegan food is actually vegan and that b) the people posting pictures of their vegan pets are actually feeding a vegan diet at all. People do lie after all. There's nothing to stop me starting a Facebook page about Thunder, the horse I feed kittens to, despite the fact that I don't have a horse and if I did I wouldn't feed it kittens.

Ave Sodalis

stillalive88 wrote:

I agree with you in part, but I don't understand the bias of the 19 cats lady. If they are healthy, what is the bias? Where is the trick? Do you mean controlling if they are predating and therefore eating other animals, or do you mean something else?

Bias in a study is when you do a study expecting or wanting a certain result.

stillalive88 wrote:

I don't have the money to produce a study and every time I research this animal nutrition topics I end up finding barely 4-5 papers of which some favourable some not. And not that recent either unfortunately. Scientifically what it seems to me is that the research is pretty much absent. Like we're not there yet at all. I know a few site where to look for research papers, but on this subject I really am coming up with so little.

I'm not asking you to make a study happen. One singular study doesn't stand for much anyway.
You're still completely ignoring the animal's physiology.

stillalive88 wrote:

Anecdotal evidence and "I believe" are very veeeery different positions. I can believe I can survive without meat. Or I can do it and phisically prove that it is possible myself. With my own body. Is that the same thing as just believing it?

Yes, in this context, they're the same.

stillalive88 wrote:

"Science" has told us for years milk was ohhhh so good, now there has been a massive U turn (did you notice?) in the last year and you will see an even stronger resonance in the future.

No, I haven't noticed. Where does science say milk is not good for you?

stillalive88 wrote:

But yes, if we were to discuss about science and papers, you couldn't say there is CONCLUSIVE PROOF for a vegan cat diet being applicable. As there is no conclusive proof it isn't applicable. There is just bits and pieces of information, tiny and very incomplete studies. We are stuck on that side, there just isn't enough research of the traditional kind. And there won't be for a long time unfortunately I'm afraid. So I find it useless to discuss it on that site. I didn't see anything convincing against it as I didn't see anything sufficient for it either.

There's very few studies to say horses can't eat meat. Do you know why? You should. I've already told you. Twice.

stillalive88 wrote:

P.s.: Yes of course vets don't do the research, they study on them though. And why would you trust researchers paid directly by feed companies? That is called conflict of interest in my country

So you won't trust researchers but you will trust random people on Facebook with absolutely no scientific data to back up what they're saying?

Senna

So the people who post on that Facebook page are vegan, they are proud of it and just a wild stab in the dark here but if one of their cats were sick or sick looking, do you think they would put up pictures of their sick vegan cat? Not a chance in hell.

Dubl07

kylith wrote: »

Well, then you know how much care a human, an omnivore, needs to take to ensure that their nutritional needs are met on a vegetarian diet. So extrapolate from that how much more care they need to take to ensure that they get their nutritional needs met on a vegan diet. Now extrapolate how much, much more care would need to be taken in order to try to ensure that an animal which hasn't evolved to eat any plant matter at all, ever, apart from when actually starving as a last-ditch attempt to not die, has its needs met.

Not to mention that you're assuming that a) the vegan food is actually vegan and that b) the people posting pictures of their vegan pets are actually feeding a vegan diet at all. People do lie after all. There's nothing to stop me starting a Facebook page about Thunder, the horse I feed kittens to, despite the fact that I don't have a horse and if I did I wouldn't feed it kittens.

Now, now. The cat has been told about animal rights and is committed to a vegan diet. Even if a frail baby bird lands in front of it, or if a tiny, juicy little mouse unfurls from a bundle of leaves, that cat will remain strong, stoic and vegan. Or it won't write about it in its diary. It did not have culinary relations with that crittur.

ganmo

I give you Science!
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11259-005-0009-1

There are more papers than I expected, plenty on owner behaviour...
But I've had to research items before and found less papers than that

stillalive88

sup_dude wrote: »

So you won't trust researchers but you will trust random people on Facebook with absolutely no scientific data to back up what they're saying?

I trust the reality of multiple cats being alive and well over fake studies, yes.

@DUbl07 We have no problem with cats hunting, but vegans will not feed them meat whenever possible. And they won't feel that good either when forced to, but it's their choice of rescuing the animal anyway and it's better than letting a kitten die.

@Senna Yes, we are religious fanatics and we will absolutely let all the animals die in name of our ideology, that says to respect and care for animals and not kill them, but letting them die in our care is of course completely A-Ok! That's exactly what you can expect from a vegan!

@Ganmo Should would be nice to be able to read it! Yes I have heard of this study before. I'm not sure I remember correctly but I think it might be aganist. Then there's one from 2006 that I linked, another from 2011 and another couple. That's more or less all I find every time.

Dubl07

stillalive88 wrote: »

I trust the reality of multiple cats being alive and well over fake studies, yes.

@DUbl07 We have no problem with cats hunting, but vegans will not feed them meat whenever possible. And they won't feel that good either when forced to, but it's their choice of rescuing the animal anyway and it's better than letting a kitten die.

You don't need an @ - this isn't twitter. Look: It should be clear that a natural diet for a cat is meat. You're filling them with garbage calories on a vegan diet. Just give them shelter and affection and put them out to hunt if you really think that's a good idea. I think it's Cadbury's fruit and nuts but each to their own. Crap. Now I have an earworm for the next three days.

Ave Sodalis

stillalive88 wrote:

I trust the reality of multiple cats being alive and well over fake studies, yes.

What fake studies?
With respect, I don't think anyone who doesn't understand what a bias is, or what ancedotal evidence is, is in any position to determine the quality of a study.

ganmo

Email the author he might oblige by sending you a copy

It's a review paper so it's more open to the authors opinion than a research paper but you have the references to see if you come to the same conclusions

kylith

stillalive88 wrote: »

I trust the reality of multiple cats being alive and well over fake studies, yes.

You trust anecdotal, unverifiable, possibly fraudulent claims over peer reviewed studies?

stillalive88 wrote: »

@DUbl07 We have no problem with cats hunting, but vegans will not feed them meat whenever possible. And they won't feel that good either when forced to, but it's their choice of rescuing the animal anyway and it's better than letting a kitten die.

If they are allowed out to hunt then they are, de facto, not being fed a vegan diet. In order to have a 'vegan' cat they would have to be kept in and fed solely on vegan food. If they are hunting then they are eating meat and any claims of healthy vegan cats can be summarily dismissed.

stillalive88

Dubl07 wrote: »

You don't need an @ - this isn't twitter. Look: It should be clear that a natural diet for a cat is meat. You're filling them with garbage calories on a vegan diet. Just give them shelter and affection and put them out to hunt if you really think that's a good idea. I think it's Cadbury's fruit and nuts but each to their own. Crap. Now I have an earworm for the next three days.

I'm using @ as in I'm responding "at" someone... this is an old practice that came well before twitter and is also doable in facebook. Just feeling too lazy to use the mutiple quotes to multiple people though that would probably be quicker. Eh.

A natural diet for a cat is hunting their pray.
You guys should really see this point as it is plain and simple. Feeding them beef in a can is not a cat's natural diet. Nothing coming out of a can is ever their natural diet. No, not even that delicious filet that you saved for him cause you are so generous, or a piece of a juicy steak. Not their natural diet.
Can we please drop this point please, are you seeing the contradiction?

Canned food is very low quality meat with empty calories. Vegan food is formulated to look at all possible deficiencies, exactly cause it's its purpose, and what is usually done is that you use an integrator for those deficiencies and arrange the rest of the meal yourself following some guidelines. You are looking for the right aminoacids and a few selected substances, you are of course adding some synthetic taurine (Exactly as in the canned food) and some B12. You are getting the protein from a vegetable source and as weird that sounds, it turns out they can take the protein from it and they do.

Yes, personally given the choice I would just give them shelter as in structure to repair them from bad weather, clean water and lots of love and let them to hunt, but that is only possible in certain conditions. This is also not that great if there are lots of cats killing wildlife but then again so is man's presence doing the same, and the alternative is letting the kittens to die or even worse feeding them low quality meat byproducts from the meat industry.

@Kylith Depends if they really are peer reviewed, how, etc. If I see that a study takes cats that are NOT on a real vegan diet but just deprived of meat and the study turns out to say they get ill, well thank you very much for the flawed premises but I'll leave it alone, right? Which is what happened with the other studies out there, at least the ones accessible to read. Those studies just took away the meat and did nothing to compensate for any nutritional lack. How is that fair? How is that a study that makes sense? Do the same on humans. I'll feed you uncooked GMO soybeans for 6 months, that's a complete vegan diet no???

Your point on the vegan-ness is a bit of a nitpick. We say vegan cat for convenience, but YES a cat cannot technically be vegan. It doesn't have the ability to choose a lifestyle in that sense, so it's more accurately described as a plant-based cat. If they are hunting outside or not doesn't change much, it's the owner that is making an ethical choice in trying, as much as possible, not to fund an industry that exploits animals.

Dubl07

stillalive88 wrote: »

Your point on the vegan-ness is a bit of a nitpick. We say vegan cat for convenience, but YES a cat cannot technically be vegan. It doesn't have the ability to choose a lifestyle in that sense, so it's more accurately described as a plant-based cat. If they are hunting outside or not doesn't change much, it's the owner that is making an ethical choice in trying, as much as possible, not to fund an industry that exploits animals.

If humans stop caring for pigs, what will happen to the porcine population? If humans cease breeding cattle, no one will milk the cows, make the cheese, supervise the grazing of the slopes and meadows. If people desist from shearing wool, angora, cashmere, who will feed the sheep and other animals? The varied human dependency on animals ensures viability for a number of species. It's not always ideal but it can be a comfortable codependency.

stillalive88

Dubl07 wrote: »

If humans stop caring for pigs, what will happen to the porcine population? If humans cease breeding cattle, no one will milk the cows, make the cheese, supervise the grazing of the slopes and meadows. If people desist from shearing wool, angora, cashmere, who will feed the sheep and other animals? The varied human dependency on animals ensures viability for a number of species. It's not always ideal but it can be a comfortable codependency.

If non vegans suddendly stopped using this argument, what would happen to the planet?

I had to explain this thing like... well basically every time I spoke to any non vegan ever, this is a very flawed premise and I kinda heard it way too many times. But here I go again.

We breed animals to exploit them and they never get any chance for a fair life.

What will happen, for simple ecological mere necessity (long explanation and off topic so I am skipping it) as we don't have enough resources to go on for long with meat consumption, is that the trade will gradually die out. There will be less and less caged cows and chicken and eventually, hopefully, this kind of exploitation will be gone and only be a very dark dark memory from the past. We'll stop caging them and we'll stop treating them as commodities.

If you study agriculture in universities you will find them referenced as "units". A unit is "discarded" when it is no longer "profitable". Sounds like a co-dependency?

IF we suddendly dropped out of it right now, which is impossible, there would be chaos on a general level, especialy on a market level as the farmers would have no time to convert to something else.

What in reality you would be left with is a lot of land that could be reforested for real wildlife again, as animal farming uses more or less ten times more resources than vegetable farming for a similar nutritional output for humans. Long explanation, I'll skip on this one but you can easily find it everywhere.

Yes we will lose all the tortured animals and gain some free ones. But that would be amazing, no???

It has been a comfortable dependancy (not co) for centuries as we did not have the means to sustain ourselves in the winter through only vegetables (although some civilization may have been vegan and some were, turns out), now we can afford to leave it behind and produce the same food with way less land. Sounds like a win win. Less of a win win to who does animal farming, but there is time to re-convert as this will take time.

TG1

MileyReilly wrote: »

What do you think the consequences of not eating meat would be? For you a human.

The consequences for me were a diet induced medical condition which had to be managed through supplements. That was back when food was a way of surviving rather than something to be enjoyed and I knew less about nutrtion so it was not an unavoidable consequence for a human, I know that, but that's for an omnivore well able to manage the diet, which is why I never would have dreamed of forcing it on pets!

stillalive88

TG1 wrote: »

The consequences for me were a diet induced medical condition which had to be managed through supplements. That was back when food was a way of surviving rather than something to be enjoyed and I knew less about nutrtion so it was not an unavoidable consequence for a human, I know that, but that's for an omnivore well able to manage the diet, which is why I never would have dreamed of forcing it on pets!

I'm sorry to hear that. Any diet should be approached with some research but I am surprised you developed a medical condition. I have never encountered a case of this before in person nor online so far.
Could I ask what kind of diet it was exactly, or what medical condition if I may? And what pointed to the diet being the cause of it? Sometimes doctors have a tendency to immediately blame it on the diet and don't check for other factors, I have seen this before.

Was just talking the other day with another vegan that I didn't know had cats, found out she has 5, of which 4 vegan now, for 3 months.
They live in an apartment and have no access to hunting, so that's interesting. She can't convince the 5th cat as she's a very fat cat and very picky about food and just goes on hunger strike if anything in her routine is changed. The other cats enjoy the new food, but this one has to be fed meat as the hunger strikes, on a cat that is overweight, put her at medical risk (i believe it was something called fatty liver?). "Owner" simply prepares varied meals and adds a supplement for the key nutrients and keeps bloods and urines under constant check. She said she's going back to meat at the first sign of any tiny thing going wrong. But so far completely smooth sailing. Will keep you guys updated on progress in the next months

Replying again to others that said before that "a group of vegan having cats would prefer to hide the cats dying to support their own ideology", I really have to respond to this again just cause my response was only ironic and I didn't elaborate. The whole idea is to respect animals as individuals, giving them basically the same basic rights a human would normally have (freedom, nonviolence), so it would be of the worst level of spirit for us to just force our ideology on them. If it can be done ok, if it can't, we'll leave it. Any vegan cat owner having problems is going to report it and might I add, it would probably happen in a very alarmed and shocked tone. I know I'm not an "elected representant" for veganism but it's something intrinsic to the ideology and it's very easy to check on the truthfulness of this statement.

Senna

stillalive88 wrote: »

it would be of the worst level of spirit for us to just force our ideology on them

I know I'm only quoting a small bit of your text, but what you wrote here sums up everyone else's opinion, you can justify it anyway you want, but this is a pet forum where people have the best interest of the pet at heart, it's not vegan bashing for the sake of it, it's educated people (most more than me) who are able to draw conclusions from a wealth of personal experience, research and professional expertise on a topic that really isn't a gray area that needs huge amounts of new research.
Cats are by nature carnivorous, plant based diets are not natural, and as an animal owner, I wouldn't dream of experimenting on my pet, their life's are precious and even though maybe a different diet wouldn't kill it, I would worry every day that it's not getting what it needs to live the longest and happiest life possible.

Only last week I had to post on here after changing dog food and worrying that it might not be good enough for them.

MileyReilly

stillalive88 wrote: »

I have been vegetarian 3 years and vegan for 1.
Didn't switch before just because I never met any vegetarian before then and I was firmly convinced you couldn't survive without the meat. Then I met the first vegetarian on my path and switched in a week, never went back.

Consequences for now are better mood, leaner phisique, increase in strength, better sleep quality and increased memory (I used to forget everything) but I think that is just a consequence of better sleep.
During the switch to vegan my digestion was weird for a few weeks, then it went back to normal.
Also I discovered a lot of foods I didn't know existed and have a much more varied diet. I'm eating stuff that is sooo much tastier now, you'd never believe me. Oh and about the tofu, I never tried it.

That's great, I thought by "consequence" you meant that vegan would be oh so bad for a human. I'm 11 months vegan now, couldn't be happier. I don't know myself with weight loss, energy gain, better sleep, better memory, more money etc etc. Sold my car and now cycle everywhere (I live in a town and would drive to the shop across the road) . I could never go back 😊

TG1

stillalive88 wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear that. Any diet should be approached with some research but I am surprised you developed a medical condition. I have never encountered a case of this before in person nor online so far.
Could I ask what kind of diet it was exactly, or what medical condition if I may? And what pointed to the diet being the cause of it? Sometimes doctors have a tendency to immediately blame it on the diet and don't check for other factors, I have seen this before.

I developed anaemia and a vitamin D deficiancy, it was diet related, not vegetarian diet, but my specific diet because I didn't do enough research and lacked understanding before switching.

Which is why at this stage in the animal research the thought of forcing a diet on a pet gives me the shivers. I personally wouldn't do it.

I have nothing against vegitarians or vegans and at this stage in my life nearly am again, not through a conscious decision but through general eating habits. But I wouldn't force a diet I felt was poorly understood in animals on one of my pets.

hardCopy

Senna wrote: »

So the people who post on that Facebook page are vegan, they are proud of it and just a wild stab in the dark here but if one of their cats were sick or sick looking, do you think they would put up pictures of their sick vegan cat? Not a chance in hell.

Anybody posting pictures of a sick cat would probably be banned as a troll.

stillalive88

TG1 wrote: »

I developed anaemia and a vitamin D deficiancy, it was diet related, not vegetarian diet, but my specific diet because I didn't do enough research and lacked understanding before switching.

Which is why at this stage in the animal research the thought of forcing a diet on a pet gives me the shivers. I personally wouldn't do it.

I have nothing against vegitarians or vegans and at this stage in my life nearly am again, not through a conscious decision but through general eating habits. But I wouldn't force a diet I felt was poorly understood in animals on one of my pets.

Mmhh yes I understand you guys' position, I don't know what to say. I only know no animal was harmed and it never shall be and I truly believe it when I say that. Except that article on the kitten raised on a random diet of potatoes and rice, poor thing. I'm sure cats have died from malnutrition on canned food as well though.
But if we harmed animals, what vegans would we be? Some choose to try, others don't cause they think "it just cannot be done cause they're obligate carnivores". I wanted to be present in this topic to give a voice to those that actually did the switch and can document that a vegan diet for cats not only competes with commercial foods but in most cases yielded an increase in health.

Of course don't force it, if it doesn't work it doesn't work. But I also said before that canned food is already forcing your cat to a completely unnatural diet, doesn't matter if "it has meat". They wouldn't eat beef in nature, they wouldn't eat tuna and they wouldn't eat cereal so there is nothing more natural in the canned food diet than in the vegan one. So that's the only point I can do about that argumentation there.

@hardCopy you are painting vegans as fundamentalist extremists, which is not what we are. Vegan is a peaceful movement that is about not doing violence on any animal or human. Is total pacifism, it's the least extremists, most tolerant and humane movement that was ever thought of at its core. Respect to all creatures. Can you get any more tolerant than that? And they paint us as "militarist" ):

muddypaws

stillalive88 wrote: »

Mmhh yes I understand you guys' position, I don't know what to say. I only know no animal was harmed and it never shall be and I truly believe it when I say that. Except that article on the kitten raised on a random diet of potatoes and rice, poor thing. I'm sure cats have died from malnutrition on canned food as well though.
But if we harmed animals, what vegans would we be? Some choose to try, others don't cause they think "it just cannot be done cause they're obligate carnivores". I wanted to be present in this topic to give a voice to those that actually did the switch and can document that a vegan diet for cats not only competes with commercial foods but in most cases yielded an increase in health.

Of course don't force it, if it doesn't work it doesn't work. But I also said before that canned food is already forcing your cat to a completely unnatural diet, doesn't matter if "it has meat". They wouldn't eat beef in nature, they wouldn't eat tuna and they wouldn't eat cereal so there is nothing more natural in the canned food diet than in the vegan one. So that's the only point I can do about that argumentation there.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with commercial cat food, but pouches have been more popular than canned food for a while now, yet you seem to think it is only canned food that people use. Dry, complete food also sells better than cans. Raw feeding is also increasing within the cat owning population.

ganmo

stillalive88 wrote: »

@hardCopy you are painting vegans as fundamentalist extremists, which is not what we are. Vegan is a peaceful movement that is about not doing violence on any animal or human. Is total pacifism, it's the least extremists, most tolerant and humane movement that was ever thought of at its core. Respect to all creatures. Can you get any more tolerant than that? And they paint us as "militarist" ):

I think you're a bit generalising there too. I know most vegans are nice and grand but there are individuals that have been described to me as militant vegans.

stillalive88

The relevant question is not whether all of the diet can be of non-animal origin but rather whether any can be. Either your cat's GI tract and associated organs can digest, absorb, and utilize nutrients of non-animal origin or it cannot. As Antares points out, traditional kibble including veterinary mainstays such as Hill's foods contain significant volume by weight of non-animal fat, carb, and protein nutrient sources. These components are not fillers. They are there because plant-based nutrients, properly processed, are excellent nutrient sources for cats. My non-vegan Dr. (DVM) surprised a client recently who had switched to a no-grain dog food by telling that as it appears in kibble form, corn is a *more* digestible nutrient than beef and chicken.

Just an interesting extract randomly found on the group today, about the corn thing... I'll have to look it up again. It's nice to get to know these things.

I have never met anyone giving pets anything else than canned food, and I don't know militant vegans except for a youtuber, also @Ganmo I was replying to the generalisation that "ANYONE posting pictures of a sick cat would probably be banned as a troll".

It is common though that, by living in a world so devoid of empathy towards animals, "newborn" vegans can feel angry, disappointed, let down by the world around them. Even more so when, after they looked into slaughterhouses and the actual farming process, people respond them "Mmmm bacon" or "a cow would gladly eat you, you know". I can understand how some can become angry and then be perceived as "militarist". It is like trying to stop someone who is beating a dog in the middle of the street and being told off by everyone else in the same street because you weren't friendly enough in your request. Makes your brain explode. It takes real balls to be a peaceful vegan in front of most of the responses we get, and I really respect all the other vegans I met because they are like that.

I used to be way worse but am improved considerably. Still a way to go. I see that keeping positive is always so much better.

My wife is vegan and a vetinary nurse.

We run a small cat rescue and also currently have rescued dogs, snakes and chickens within our household.

Cats are pure carnivores you cannot feed them a vegan or vegetarian diet. There are some companies promoting such diets with syntetic supliments added, but the limited research shows that within Y packets of such food, X packets do not have the required levels of the supliments for the cat's health to be maintained.

Studies are limited because the small size of the companies producing these foods, so the only option would be to actually experiment on your cat by buying such foods, which as a vegan is not something she would condone or consider.
Basically it would be like feeding steak to a horse or cow and we all know what happens when this is done.

Dogs on the other hand can have a vegetarian diet and such foods are readily available if a little expensive, with the cost being prohibitive for most if not all small rescues.

Does she feel bad feeding meat or meat based dry food to the cats, yes and no. Obviously she is completely against animal suffering, but given that most pet food is a by product of human food preparation and the dietary requirements of felines there is no alternative.
It's the same when it comes to feeding our snakes there is no alternative but to feed them mice or rats bought frozen from a pet store, the real solution in this case would be to ban the sale of exotic pets such as snakes and reptiles in Ireland.

You will always get extremist views in this or any other subject, and not everyone who claims to work in animal rescue are doing so for the best of the animals in question, some jest do it for the glory, with the large state funded rescues being the worst, but most people are in our experience trying to do their best. But to my wife's mind if you love animals and share your home with them they must be fed the correct diet, otherwise you are harming the animal out of stupidity or a false sense of righteousness.

muddypaws

stillalive88 wrote: »

I have never met anyone giving pets anything else than canned food, and I don't know militant vegans except for a youtuber, also @Ganmo I was replying to the generalisation that "ANYONE posting pictures of a sick cat would probably be banned as a troll".

This is the whole problem, you are basing your argument on what you or some random facebookers know, what you/they have seen, rather than on evidence. You don't have to go to a pet shop if that would be distressing for you, just look in the pet food aisle of a supermarket at all of the pouches/trays and bags of dry food available. Do you live in Ireland? Because if you do, you have met plenty of people who feed their pets other than canned food, maybe you haven't asked them what they feed, but to say "I have never met anyone" is wrong.

TG1

I currently own a horse. I feed the horse a grain and roughage diet, all plant based.

She would not be eating that exact diet "in the wild", she wouldn't have access to oats/barley and proccessing the grain aids digestion, she couldn't eat barley without it being rolled/crushed/bruised. But it is still adhering to the fundamentals of her natural diet.

I wouldn't dream of changing the fundamentals of her diet because I don't think her digestive system has evolved to cope. I would never feed the horse a burger, and hope no one on here would try, so why would you try to feed a cat a vegitarian diet? That's my objection, that it goes against what the animal has evolved to eat.

stillalive88

muddypaws wrote: »

This is the whole problem, you are basing your argument on what you or some random facebookers know, what you/they have seen, rather than on evidence. You don't have to go to a pet shop if that would be distressing for you, just look in the pet food aisle of a supermarket at all of the pouches/trays and bags of dry food available. Do you live in Ireland? Because if you do, you have met plenty of people who feed their pets other than canned food, maybe you haven't asked them what they feed, but to say "I have never met anyone" is wrong.

I really keep not understanding this argument that a cat, since the "owner" is on facebook, ceases to be a real cat therefore the proof is not proof and all cats will die in the exact instant they touch a broccoli.

All the objections so far have only been based on the facts that:
- It is obvious and unnatural
- Obligate carnivore, which is basically saying that the demonstration that an animal is an obligate carnivore is saying so.
- Research (3 papers from 5-10 years ago with an approximate total sample of 40 cats, fed on piss poor diets, with 2 other "counter"-papers saying that it can be done no problem, that's all we have to work on)

The cats are there, they are alive and they are healthy, which means the "obligate carnivore" concept is no more than an old stereotype and fruit of the old school research which is non existant.

Otherwise how would they survive at all? If the obligate carnivore theory was true that would mean a vegan cat would be dead in 1 or 2 days. The time to exhaust all the nutrients from the meat. We know it's not the case so let's please drop this false idea?

YES I know there are vegans which do not want to try the vegan diet on their companions or sheltered pets and I'll say it again that I understand. But stop saying "it's impossible" when it is proven that it is possible. "But there are no scientific papers" - does that change things in any way beside proving the ignorance of the scientific community on this matter at the current moment? Because they will eventually get on it.

The reality of it is that it's extremely possible and it might lead to problems in some case so one should stay careful. The obligate carnivore doesn't hold up anymore.

I live in Ireland and previously was in another country. I have never met anyone giving pets anything different than canned food and I just stated my personal experience as it is. I know somebody that MIXES and sometimes gives "real food", now and than, but that's it. In any case you miss the point, WHATEVER you give the cat, you are bringing out of its natural order of hunting. That was always my point. The moment man is in the picture, the diet will be artificial. So might as well make it a cruelty free one, if one wishes so.


@TG1: What if I told you that the health of an animal on a certain diet is proof that the diet IS indeed covering the fundamentals? Wouldn't that be true?

@DubinMeath: Your wife seems like the prime example of somebody that should check out the group and ask a few questions. No harm can come out of it.

@DubinMeath

@DubinMeath: Your wife seems like the prime example of somebody that should check out the group and ask a few questions. No harm can come out of it.[/QUOTE]

She's done just that and also done extensive research into it. Because if there was a way she would do it.

Facebook groups and boards etc are not scientific research. The cat may appear healthy but be have dietary deficiencies that in the long term result in health problems, not something she is willing to test personally.

stillalive88

Yes but scientific research isn't there and we care so we need to do something. Not said as an imperative but just as how I and others feel.
Are you saying she must have done so or are you saying she might? Would be useful to hear her opinion on this. So far all the opinions of people that said "it can't be done" were of people that didn't try, so that doesn't count for much to me, especially when the people that tried were more "well, this seems to work quite well actually". I'm keeping an eye out for everyone mentions a roadblock in the gruop but it seems most of the time the just rearrange the diet according to each individual cat and it starts to work. Intruiguing anyway.

I have found a couple debates with different vets arguing pro and against this. One said she had never seen a healthy vegan cat, other two said they were healthier than normal. It's clear that even vets are split on this, while unfortunately the research just isn't there.

TG1

stillalive88 wrote: »

@TG1: What if I told you that the health of an animal on a certain diet is proof that the diet IS indeed covering the fundamentals? Wouldn't that be true?

It's kind of like saying look at my granny, she's 104 and smokes 20 a day and drinks 5 whiskey sours before going to bed so clearly we should all do that.

I know cigarettes and whiskey are not good for me so I'm not going to take one anecdotel case as the absoloute truth. I'll rely on the research that shows increased risk of cancer and liver disease.

Likewise I'll rely on the years of research that have gone into providing food that is providing my pets with what is currently believed to be the optimum diet for them.

stillalive88

stillalive88 wrote: »

Yes but scientific research isn't there and we care so we need to do something. Not said as an imperative but just as how I and others feel.
Are you saying she must have done so or are you saying she might? Would be useful to hear her opinion on this. So far all the opinions of people that said "it can't be done" were of people that didn't try, so that doesn't count for much to me, especially when the people that tried were more "well, this seems to work quite well actually". I'm keeping an eye out for everyone mentions a roadblock in the gruop but it seems most of the time the just rearrange the diet according to each individual cat and it starts to work. Intruiguing anyway.

I have found a couple debates with different vets arguing pro and against this. One said she had never seen a healthy vegan cat, other two said they were healthier than normal. It's clear that even vets are split on this, while unfortunately the research just isn't there.

We seriously looked into this due to both an ethical and financial view point, given we have 50 plus cats (some strays who feed at ours being the plus)

There has been research into this type of food which found it to be harmful due to a lack key nutrients and some in the US was found to be produced by some very shady characters.

If it were possible the larger food producers would jump on it as it would be more profitable to manufacture.

Given that humans and dogs are omnivores and the scientific research has been conducted we've no problems feeding a mainly vegitarian based diet to our four dogs one of whom is a 17 year old jack russell. But given cats are complete carnivors a vegitarian or vegan diet is not something which we would be willing to use them as a experiment base, given some of them are well into their 20's.

There are times when additional research is needed for example one of our cats has epilepsy and the vetinary licensed drug in Ireland was affecting his liver a known potential side affect and we were faced with the prospect of losing him.
My wife researched and found that Keppra had been used by some owners in the US, to treat their cats without the side affects to the liver and found some scientific research papers to show this also.

We took these to our vet and after his own research he agreed it should be tried. It's worked wonderfully for the last ten years, there maybe other side affects that may affect his longer term health but we don't know because the research isn't there.

The difference is that we would have lost him if we didn't do this experiment and kept him on the licenced drug, but we're not willing to experiment when the research shows such a diet doesn't work and there is only anecdotal evidence to say it is a complete healty diet

Now I'm not saying your right or wrong it's your cat and it's your decision and you have your animals interests at heart, but could you tell me what your vet said to you in relation to this diet when you discussed it with them?

muddypaws

stillalive88 wrote: »

I live in Ireland and previously was in another country. I have never met anyone giving pets anything different than canned food and I just stated my personal experience as it is. I know somebody that MIXES and sometimes gives "real food", now and than, but that's it. In any case you miss the point, WHATEVER you give the cat, you are bringing out of its natural order of hunting. That was always my point. The moment man is in the picture, the diet will be artificial. So might as well make it a cruelty free one, if one wishes so.

No, you are missing the point completely. You are saying that you have never met anyone giving pets anything different than canned food. Now unless you never leave your house, and never interact with anyone else, you cannot know that is true, but I can guarantee that its not. How do you know that the person who served you in a shop doesn't own a cat, and feeds it pouches? And that is what you are saying in this argument. Unless you truly do ask every single person that you meet "do you own a pet. What do you feed it". Is that what you are saying? You are not proving anything. Saying that you know something, and that some people on a FB group know something is pointless as an argument amongst grown ups.

Senna

This thread is all about cat owners who are vegans and vegans who are cat owners. There's a bit difference.

Senna

Senna wrote: »

This thread is all about cat owners who are vegans and vegans who are cat owners. There's a bit difference.

It's the cats that own us not the other way round :-)

We haven't had a holiday in ten years since we took in our epileptic guy. I even had to come home on the night of our wedding to give him his meds.

boomerang

stillalive88 wrote: »

I wanted to be present in this topic to give a voice to those that actually did the switch and can document that a vegan diet for cats not only competes with commercial foods but in most cases yielded an increase in health.

Other than the claims of the vegan pet food companies and anecdotal evidence from those who feed their cats a vegan diet, there is no credible evidence for this, anywhere. I've looked.

boomerang

stillalive88 wrote: »

It is common though that, by living in a world so devoid of empathy towards animals, "newborn" vegans can feel angry, disappointed, let down by the world around them.

Part of the problem is the propaganda put out by the likes of PETA and VIVA and taken as fact by the newly-vegan. Absolutely animals do suffer in the commercial food chain. But rather than rely on science-based evidence, these vegan organisations appeal to the nightmare emotions of naive people who have never stood foot on a farm or in a slaughterhouse so they're easily hoodwinked. Vegan organisations make claims for animal behaviour and against the food industry that aren't just wrong - they're outright ridiculous. That's why I think veganism as an ideology unfortunately has no credibility.

Cherry Blossom

Actually boomerang, shortly after my vegetarianism didn't work out I got an admin job in a meat factory for three months as I wanted to know more about where my food comes from. I grew up on a farm where we had beef cattle so I never had any issue with how Irish meat lives out it's life prior to slaughter as I saw it first hand. As for slaughter itself, while I am sure death is painful, our food gets a much less painful and much quicker end than any of us will ever have.

I don't understand this business at all of vegans allowing their cats to hunt. Cat's are ruthless, cruel hunters that slowly torture their prey to death. My dogs have killed rodents on occasion but at least with a dog the end is quick.

boomerang

boomerang wrote: »

Part of the problem is the propaganda put out by the likes of PETA and VIVA and taken as fact by the newly-vegan. Absolutely animals do suffer in the commercial food chain. But rather than rely on science-based evidence, these vegan organisations appeal to the nightmare emotions of naive people who have never stood foot on a farm or in a slaughterhouse so they're easily hoodwinked. Vegan organisations make claims for animal behaviour and against the food industry that aren't just wrong - they're outright ridiculous. That's why I think veganism as an ideology unfortunately has no credibility.

Members of the public cannot gain access to a slaughter house, some would argue that it's because if they did everyone would be vegetarian/vegan, but they can see videos online and make their own minds up.

PETA are US based where welfare conditions and food standards are lower than Ireland and most people in animal rescue can't stand PETA. What some organisations and people spout online shouldn't be taken as Vegan ideology as there actually is no vegan ideology. Veganis a diet and it could be argued a lifestyle for some. It's just most vegans tend to be animal lovers and become vegan because of this. This is not to say they love their animals more than some one who isn't vegan that's just stupidity.

Beyonce for example is now portrayed as a vegan, but in no way follows what you would call its ideology due to her support/use of real fur etc.

Real animal lovers be they vegan, vegetarian or traditional meat eaters accept their animals for who they are and wouldn't introduce a diet that could harm their animals.

boomerang

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

As for slaughter itself, while I am sure death is painful, our food gets a much less painful and much quicker end than any of us will ever have.

While the end is humane AJ, there are aspects of the husbandry that upset me and are part of the reason I don't eat meat or dairy. I'm sure you're more than aware of them -

• Veal calves sent to Holland and Italy at a very young and vulnerable age
• Ailments such as tumours, abscesses sometimes going untreated
• Scour in newborn calves, salmonellosis, red water...
• Winter confinement causing minor conditions such as lice and pinkeye
• Chronic mastitis and lameness in dairy cows
• Downer cows being left too long before being euthanised
• Cows being sometimes painfully jacked while calving
• Calving cows in difficulty been made to wait too long for a caesarian
• Older calves being castrated
  

It goes on and I saw all of these things while on large animal rotation. Also sheep faming, pig farming, intensive chicken farms come with their own intrinsic suffering, no matter how good the husbandry. For me that's reason enough for veganism. But when you claim things like newborn calves scream for their mothers when separated within 24 hours of birth, you've lost me. There's no need for the propaganda. The facts speak for themselves.

adrenalinjunkie

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I don't understand this business at all of vegans allowing their cats to hunt. Cat's are ruthless, cruel hunters that slowly torture their prey to death. My dogs have killed rodents on occasion but at least with a dog the end is quick.

Cats are hunters, but in no way cruel hunters, while we don't like it it's part of their make up.

Dogs have been domesticated longer than cats and retain less of their wild characteristics and normally stop playing with food after puppy hood. But my dad has seen his dogs play with rats as cats do.

Most cats that play with prey are in our experience

1 those taken to young from their mothers who would teach them to kill their prey quickly. Belive me a cat that plays with a full grown rat will require a trip to the vet.

2. Well fed house cats as they still retain their chase and catch instinct and continue as they aren't hungry. Feral cats in our experience never do this as they don't know when their next meal will be caught and hunting requires energy.

For me that's reason enough for veganism. But when you claim things like newborn calves scream for their mothers when separated within 24 hours of birth, you've lost me. There's no need for the propaganda. The facts speak for themselves.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately they do and the mothers continue to call for their calves.

Cherry Blossom

I must admit that I have no experience with dairy cattle or any cattle giving birth. My dad only ever bought young bullocks for fattening and then sold them on. They were well looked after for the duration they where here but maybe all farmers don't do things as well. My dad stopped the cattle when I was about 13 or 14 due to his health and them being too labour intensive.

My granny kept a few chickens in a large barn but they were only kept for eggs. I only buy free range chicken or eggs myself, I don't eat pork at all and only occasionally eat beef. 90% of the protein I eat comes from fish though. I wish I could try a veggie diet again but I'm allergic to maize and I don't like tofu which makes it extremely difficult to eat a complete meat free diet.

boomerang

Unfortunately they do and the mothers continue to call for their calves.

There's calling, and then there's "screaming." That's deliberately emotional language, IMO and it's un-necessary. Likewise people saying that animals raised for meat are "tortured."