Excessive moderation sucking the fun out of AH

Steve

riffmongous wrote: »

Take it to thunderdome lads

:D:D

It still appears in beta skin even though it's now closed / access only / can't remember...

Legend of a forum back in the day.

Wibbs

Azalea wrote: »

Crikey. Personal abuse thanked by a mod. Is it any wonder people get the impression there is favouritism?

*reality check* There will always be "favouritism" and yes there will always be "cliques". And yes there are a couple of less than stellar mods who see a banhammer as an overcompensation for an internal lack. And there will always be trolls, high level and below the radar(the most odious of all). And there will always be a "them and us" vibe to the whole modding thing, the latter especially goes on Boards.ie.

However and it's a bloody big however, equally on the same Boards.ie there is more than an attempt to reduce that kinda stuff. I don't know of a single other forum of any size that has feedback to the degree that exists here. Never mind Help Desk and Dispute Resolution. You can complain all you like about the latter and how it works, but you can complain and that option exists where they don't exist anywhere else. That's pretty damn special.

Oh and that was part of Boards DNA from the get go and the DRP etc came about from a grassroots call for more accountability and transparency and it was spearheaded by mods on behalf of us all. "Hey admins we're clamouring for a system in place as a check and balance against ourselves". And Boards could have said bugger off, as they could have easily filled the mod positions with power trippers, but to the credit of the founder's ethos of this place they didn't. For all the sometime rancour coming out, both "sides" were fighting for the same thing, a better community. I see that much more now with hindsight.

Have things changed? Yes a little. With the good that DRP et al brought, the bad was a tendency for mods to become officious, less personal, more apart from the forum you mod and worst of all IMH less likely to keep posting, which goes quadruple for high traffic forums and a tendency to pick safe pairs of hands. And that has added to the mod/member divisions to some degree, which is not good IMH and a tendency that should be fought. I would also bet the farm that no way would a grassroots call from mods happen today en masse. There's a little more jadedness about. I personally don't like the newer trend of deleting troublesome posts(although I have done it), for me it smacks too much of lesser forums out there and IMHO we should be always aiming for greater.

Has AH changed? Massively. Click back even five years and read it. A very different forum. Far fewer "serious" threads. What really strikes you are how short the thread titles are compared to today. As the site has contracted/changed in numbers and demographics AH has become less the gateway forum and more the forum folks find and stay in. Has it changed for the better? I would personally say yes.

kneemos

Give people what they want or they go elsewhere.
I haven't got the statistics,but it looks as if quiet a few of them have.

Insect Overlord

kneemos wrote: »

Give people what they want or they go elsewhere.
I haven't got the statistics,but it looks as if quiet a few of them have.

They all come back with new names, eventually. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

kneemos

An File wrote: »

They all come back with new names, eventually. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Level of activity I was referring to really.

Wibbs

An File wrote: »

They all come back with new names, eventually. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Oh that's true with many AF, both the reregs(some need professional help) and haurrumph! closed accounts, but overall traffic does feel down to me. Certainly from say 2010 levels. I'd really doubt it has much if anything to do with moderation here. More down to a much changed online landscape compared to five years ago. Facebook, Reddit and such like. In microcosm on one specialty forum I'm a member of traffic has pretty much stopped and now it's all on their Facebook page. Granted that is a speciality type place which Facebook suits well enough, but I'd imagine it and Reddit are a stressor on Boards stats.

Chorus_suck

This post has been deleted.

Insect Overlord

Chorus_suck wrote: »

Reported for personal abuse. As you say yourself Seamus, attack the post not the poster.

Disappointed to see this post thanked by mods and an admin.

Grow up, ffs.

Wibbs

An File wrote: »

Grow up, ffs.

To be fair they have a point AF. I've been carded for less and it wasn't in a feedback thread. Though Seamus has a point and TBH I miss the old days(™) where rebuttals were more robust. There are a few repellent little gits I'd love to be more "direct" with, but things have changed.

Chorus_suck

This post has been deleted.

Azalea

An File wrote: »

Grow up, ffs.

Ah come on, An File - why should they "grow up"? Their point is extremely reasonable. "Go back to your model railway you dull pedant" is blatant personal abuse, not even any ambiguity. "No personal abuse" is one of the most clear-cut rules on Boards, and it is breached above, and then the post thanked by moderators and an admin - and no sign of any reprimand of the poster. Although to be fair, we don't know that something hasn't gone on in the background, but it is sure as night follows day that a newer/lesser known person would be admonished for that post - because it breaks a key rule: no personal abuse. A moderator (Steve) stated this earlier in the thread when I said I thought the "cissy" comment was just kidding.

I have been on Boards for years and years and have often defended the place and I still would, it's a great website IMO and a lot better than any other out there of its ilk. It needs moderation too - you can see what lack of moderation results in in other places.

But stuff like that post and the thanking of it just undermines the place and it's like gold to the website's detractors. How can it not look hypocritical when an admin and mods thank personal abuse?

What Eugene Norman said... pedantic? Maybe to some. I don't really see how it was - it just stated fact. What was the embarrassingly sycophantic "We should get his ban extended by a month" from Seamus about too? Cringe. And the poster in question (Corpus Twisty) right here.

You're right Wibbs that there has always been cliques and favouritism - this is more simply the natural order of things, rather than being anything deliberate. It's inevitable. But there is a line. Not admonishing personal abuse (and being seen to thank it, just because the poster is well known and here a long time, rather than there actually being anything deserved in the personal abuse) being where that line is crossed.

Azalea

Chorus_suck wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Personal abuse which you will certainly get banned (or at least infracted/warned) for, because you are not well known, and you deserve that too - it is breaking one of the main rules of the charter, but I applaud your point.

Deank

Chorus_suck wrote: »

You grow up you dull, immature, suck up, pedant idiot.

I'm assuming this post is ok and that I'll get a few mod and admin thanks.

That is highly doubtful.

A different set of rules apply to them. "Do as I say not as I do."

At least they're showing their true colours.

Azalea

K-9 wrote: »

Seamus's post was exactly like the old AH, so why people are getting offended by it on a thread bemoaning the fall of the old AH

Doublethink to minimise the ramifications of Seamus's post and the ensuing hypocrisy?

Wibbs wrote: »

Though Seamus has a point and TBH I miss the old days(™) where rebuttals were more robust. There are a few repellent little gits I'd love to be more "direct" with, but things have changed.

You are both acting as if personal abuse was once allowed when you know it was never allowed.

riffmongous

Nice to see everyone making such a big effort to recreate the old AH spirit

KERSPLAT!

So this has descended into a load of shîte so I'm out.

As I said before, any issues in AH, let me know and I'll certainly look into it

MadDog76

I welcome Seamus' post and the Thanks of those Mods/Admins which thanked his post as well as the hypocritical support of the post from posters like An File......... it clearly shows which Mods should not be in the job.

Azalea

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

So this has descended into a load of shîte

I agree that post containing personal abuse was really out of order too.

Renegade Mechanic

Azalea wrote: »

I agree that post containing personal abuse was really out of order too.

Personal abuse.. Person- do you people even know what personal abuse is anymore?? Can you people even comprehend? In what way is words like "dull" or "pedant" even remotely abusive? In what way are these words, spouted between two people on a pokey Internet forum -who don't even know each other - personal?

Every year I'm watching people get softer. Skins getting thinner. I tried to jump on to a tow truck once, as it was driving away. It's driver saw that and slapped on the brakes, just as I jumped. "Hopped" isn't the word.... We went purple laughing. I spent months with an unusable foot, and laughed when someone sent me a form to apply for a handicapped licence. That's most of the problem with places like AH and much, much farther across the Internet. (Not even real life, just words on a screen)

Jesus H lads, for yer own sakes. Not you personally, but everyone. Start toughening up, because a world is coming where people who pause at what.... "passes" for personal abuse these days are absolutely ****ed.

Azalea

RadiationKing wrote: »

I've been here a few years longer than yourself and I'd be of the opposite opinion - AH's userbase has gone to the absolute dogs. It hit its hayday a couple of years back when the torture fantasies were in every crime thread and people were almost trying to one-up each other.

People will joke about "I remember when this was all just green fields" but they're not that far off. Back then, Boards really was much, much quieter. The rules we have in place now weren't always in place. Know why? Because the userbase is ****. Because some people had to come to Feedback and talk about issues (sexism in AH, anyone?) that had become issues because of the increase of posters looking to generally be assholes and then whinge and complain if anyone dared to take issue with their behaviour. The rules are a response to the worsening of the userbase.

Even your post is indicative of that - talking about people looking for offence. Cop the **** on, tbh. You don't exactly have to look far on AH to find crap, just dip into any thread that deals with any issue that's remotely topical.

Ever since the "PC gone mad" types moved in and took over, the forum's been like that. It's not fun because everything is political, everything is someone looking for offence, everything's about race or gender or sexuality or whatever the whipping boy du jour is.

And before the usual sorts pop up and claim this is an example of how you can't talk about those tings, two things - one, criticism doesn't magically stop your fingers from working your keyboard (I love it when people who complain about offence are themselves terminally offended by criticism :pac:), maybe take a little of your own advice and thicken your skin up a little; two, there's "talking about" and then there's "incessant bull****ting about".

I mean in a completely unrelated thread, I've seen someone take a shot at Muslims because hey, that's the done thing on AH nowadays.

People aren't looking to have fun, they're not looking to make jokes, they're looking to push agendas and on the few occasions they're pulled up, here we are with them complaining about it.

Completely agree, but...

If you want to blame anyone for the state of AH then blame yourselves.

Who are the "yourselves"?

Azalea

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Personal abuse.. Person- do you people even know what personal abuse is anymore?? Can you people even comprehend? In what way is words like "dull" or "pedant" even remotely abusive? In what way are these words, spouted between two people on a pokey Internet forum -who don't even know each other - personal?

Oh Seamus and his thankers will love you!

Every year I'm watching people get softer. Skins getting thinner. I tried to jump on to a tow truck once, as it was driving away. It's driver saw that and slapped on the brakes, just as I jumped. "Hopped" isn't the word.... We went purple laughing. I spent months with an unusable foot, and laughed when someone sent me a form to apply for a handicapped licence.

Jesus H lads, for yer own sakes. Not you personally, everyone. Start toughening up, because a world is coming where people who pause at what.... "passes" for personal abuse these days are absolutely ****ed.

Yeah you are completely off-track here - I don't see these hyper-sensitive people in my day to day life at all, only on corners of the internet.

The point is: "Go back to your model railway you dull pedant" - fair enough, it's not "**** you, you ****ing ****" or anywhere near it. But it is *exactly* what is considered personal abuse here on Boards. Exactly.

"Personal abuse" here covers a wide enough spectrum, from mild insults (which is what I would categorise "Go back to your model railway you dull pedant") to "**** you, you ****ing ****".
The issue people are taking is not so much the statement itself - it is hardly something that's gonna have Eugene Norman wounded - but the fact it breaches one of the main rules and no admonishment for it (that we can see) and thanking of this rule-breaking by people who are in a position whereby they enforce these rules.

It is also a bit more loaded than meets the eye: "Go back to your model railway" is a little snipe containing "You nerdy loser who lives with your mam" type implications, just because of one flipping post. It's not cool - it's not in the spirit of which Boards is intended.

MadDog76

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Personal abuse.. Person- do you people even know what personal abuse is anymore?? Can you people even comprehend? In what way is words like "dull" or "pedant" even remotely abusive? In what way are these words, spouted between two people on a pokey Internet forum -who don't even know each other - personal?

Every year I'm watching people get softer. Skins getting thinner. I tried to jump on to a tow truck once, as it was driving away. It's driver saw that and slapped on the brakes, just as I jumped. "Hopped" isn't the word.... We went purple laughing. I spent months with an unusable foot, and laughed when someone sent me a form to apply for a handicapped licence. That's most of the problem with places like AH and much, much farther across the Internet. (Not even real life, just words on a screen)

Jesus H lads, for yer own sakes. Not you personally, but everyone. Start toughening up, because a world is coming where people who pause at what.... "passes" for personal abuse these days are absolutely ****ed.

I think you're missing the point ......... that post is considered Personal Abuse on Boards and many a Poster have been Infracted/Banned for posting less ........ yet, in this case, the post was actually "Thanked" and supported by Mods/Admins ........ on a thread in the Feedback Forum of all places!?!! :eek:

Do I personally think robust replies/posts like that one should be allowed on Boards?
Yes I do ......... but the fact is they are not ......... so why has no action been taken against the post/poster and, even more worrying, why have Mods/Admins supported this particular post from this particular Poster?

Renegade Mechanic

Azalea wrote: »

Oh Seamus and his thankers will love you!

Yeah you are completely off-track here - I don't see these hyper-sensitive people in my day to day life at all, only on corners of the internet.

The point is: "Go back to your model railway you dull pedant" - fair enough, it's not "**** you, you ****ing ****" or anywhere near it. But it is *exactly* what is considered personal abuse here on Boards. Exactly.

"Personal abuse" here covers a wide enough spectrum, from mild insults (which is what I would categorise "Go back to your model railway you dull pedant") to "**** you, you ****ing ****".
The issue people are taking is not so much the statement itself - it is hardly something that's gonna have Eugene Norman wounded - but the fact it breaches one of the main rules and no admonishment for it (that we can see) and thanking of this rule-breaking by people who are in a position whereby they enforce these rules.

It is also a bit more loaded than meets the eye: "Go back to your model railway" is a little snipe containing "You nerdy loser who lives with your mam" type implications, just because of one flipping post. It's not cool - it's not in the spirit of which Boards is intended.

Seamus and his mates can kiss my clinkers

And it's all about the implications. That's what makes things funny, or clever. Not that the above comments are, but to me, personally, as bad as it is that people take issue with things like this, getting even more frustrated over other people's thanks is just.... I don't even know what that is.. Being admonished for saying something - or not - is one thing, but if people were to get so sad that a rule, that thanking even a carded post got them carded too, were to be brought in, that would just beat all..

The Moldy Gowl

I think ye are all a pack of pricks.

MadDog76

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Seamus and his mates can kiss my clinkers

And it's all about the implications. That's what makes things funny, or clever. Not that the above comments are, but to me, personally, as bad as it is that people take issue with things like this, getting even more frustrated over other people's thanks is just.... I don't even know what that is.. Being admonished for saying something - or not - is one thing, but if people were to get so sad that a rule, that thanking even a carded post got them carded too, were to be brought in, that would just beat all..

Do you not see a problem with a Broken Rule being "Thanked" by the people tasked with upholding those Rules?

Wibbs

KERSPLAT! wrote:

So this has descended into a load of shîte so I'm out.

Stop being offensive you! But yeah.

*insert well that escalated quickly meme here*

*insert cat pic meme here*

*insert is there anything to be said for another mass meme here*

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Personal abuse.. Person- do you people even know what personal abuse is anymore?? Can you people even comprehend? In what way is words like "dull" or "pedant" even remotely abusive? In what way are these words, spouted between two people on a pokey Internet forum -who don't even know each other - personal?

Don't get me started RM. No really, don't.

That said it's harder nowadays simply because Boards is bigger, less personal. It's a far cry from the more village feel where you "knew" a shedload of people, quite likely even met/snogged/married them/told them to fcuk off at a Boards beers. I once called Dav a cheap bastard. He then pointed out I was the cheap bastard as I owed him pints(still do). I then called him a prick. No harm no foul as we knew each other and others reading knew the story. Today, I'd be willing to bet that exchange would likely cause a reported post of some nature. So now it has to be more "grown up" for the real want of a better word. Less freewheeling, more consistent. And as you note it does seem more people about these days(and not just on Boards) are more likely to take offence and the barrier of the screen makes that easier*. It can be subtler than that, where an attack on someone's viewpoint is seen as an attack on them. I've been caught for that more than once and over the years the number of calming PM's I've had to send to the aggrieved when I pointed out that Member A said your position was retarded, they did not say you were. Funny enough I find Boards more "nerdy", more "pedantic" these days, even though the demographic has widened considerably from the days when outsiders would have thought this place geek central(which it wasn't).


*this can be a good thing too, in the sense that in the Real World folks who were offended might be far less likely to show or complain about it so it goes without comment.

Azalea

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Seamus and his mates can kiss my clinkers

And it's all about the implications. That's what makes things funny, or clever. Not that the above comments are, but to me, personally, as bad as it is that people take issue with things like this, getting even more frustrated over other people's thanks is just.... I don't even know what that is.. Being admonished for saying something - or not - is one thing, but if people were to get so sad that a rule, that thanking even a carded post got them carded too, were to be brought in, that would just beat all..

But again, it's not simply people thanking (I agree people can get way too wound up about thanks too) - it's specifically a moderator and an admin, who enforce the "No personal abuse/insults" rule thanking a post that breaches it.

People are taking issue with the "rule being broken but it's ok in this case" message, not the thing that was said. I don't know are you missing how I and MadDog have pointed this out.

Azalea

Wibbs wrote: »

That said it's harder nowadays simply because Boards is bigger, less personal. It's a far cry from the more village feel where you "knew" a shedload of people, quite likely even met/snogged/married them/told them to fcuk off at a Boards beers. I once called Dav a cheap bastard. He then pointed out I was the cheap bastard as I owed him pints(still do). I then called him a prick. No harm no foul as we knew each other and others reading knew the story. Today, I'd be willing to bet that exchange would likely cause a reported post of some nature.

You're talking about jokes - *jokes*.

This was not a joke, it was an insult and quite personal. Mild, but still an insult and quite personal. And more to the point: breaking Boards rules.

Just admit that seamus, even if he is here for years and a highly respected poster and a very good poster, was wrong and it was also wrong of a mod and admin to let it be known that they were fine with this breaching of Boards rules.

Renegade Mechanic

Azalea wrote: »

You're talking about jokes - *jokes*.

This was not a joke, it was an insult and quite personal. Mild, but still an insult and quite personal. And more to the point: breaking Boards rules.

Just admit that seamus, even if he is here for years and a highly respected poster and a very good poster, was wrong and it was also wrong of a mod and admin to let it be known that they were fine with this breaching of Boards rules.

How do you know the exchange between Wibbs and Dav was a joke? For all we know, Wibbs may have witnessed Dav haggling with a vending machine

Ah I dunno.. I just can't see it myself. Mabye because I've dealt with worse in real life or mabye because I'm not changing with the times. (Christ I can't believe I said that.. I'm only late 20s ffs....). Ah shur, back to the immigrant threads with me!

Azalea

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Ah I dunno.. I just can't see it myself.

You can't see what? The numerous times it has been pointed out that the issue is with the breach of Boards rules and mod/admin being fine with it in this instance when they usually enforce it?