I don't want to stay

Hotblack Desiato

iguana wrote: »

When I was in primary in the 80s there were 3 children from Jehovah's Witness families who sat out of religious lessons ... They were clearly having a lot more fun than we were.

Oh, I'm sure their life outside school more than made up for that There are a few fundie parents at our kids' CoI primary, I feel a bit sorry for their kids to be honest (but maybe they feel sorry for the godless kids growing up not fully human, with no hope or morals or any purpose in life... :pac: )

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Better have them see what religion is about now, than have them discover religion for themselves for the first time when they leave home.

You certainly don't need to be indoctrinated in school to know what religion is about.

ET would be far better than RC/CoI as they teach about all major religions (and non-belief also.)

The Dept. Ed has a draft syllabus for religion/ethics which would be similar but expect more resistance to that from the usual quarters soon.

iguana

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Oh, I'm sure their life outside school more than made up for that There are a few fundie parents at our kids' CoI primary, I feel a bit sorry for their kids to be honest (but maybe they feel sorry for the godless kids growing up not fully human, with no hope or morals or any purpose in life... :pac:

Oh well it was swings and roundabouts. We were jealous of them for getting to sit out of so much schoolwork but also horrified that they could never get presents and couldn't celebrate Halloween, Easter, the best parts of Christmas or even their own birthdays. But on the days where they would all solemnly swear to the teacher that they couldn't take part in the section of the Irish book we'd be doing over the next 2 weeks because it was the story of St Brigid. Then spend the next hour giggling over their crayons, it very almost seemed like a fair trade.

But for A&A little Kiwi, there is no "trade." Just skipped lessons and plenty of cultural celebrations that may well be even more fun in his house.

cnocbui

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

...

I apologise if this sounds like it should be in the personal problem forum.

I moved here from Australia. My daughter was born here. My son has been through the Irish education system from pre-school to College and is a perfectly sane and devout atheist. My daughter is half way through Secondary school and is also healthily atheist.

It's you who will determine how your children turn out, not the catholic education system.

That said, I'm out of here when it becomes practical. To be honest, having to learn Irish will cause far more grief for your children than any religious issues.

One of the motivations I have for leaving is the taxation and government charges issues, which are trending upwards and will continue to do so given the countries unsustainable and ever increasing level of debt.

catbear

I actually think being exposed in some small dose with religion in school is like an inoculation against full blown religion later in life. It's better to develop a healthy cynicism early in life rather than encountering and embracing religion full on during a personal adult crisis.
Even in the antipodes I've observed that secular schooling is no protection from later religiosity.

haveringchick

gctest50 wrote: »

Outstanding idea - should give them a little bell too

Over 80% of the population wearing ashes and ringing bells... I suppose it will be noise pollution ...

Gbear

smacl wrote: »

I take your point, but think it is flawed insofar that by extension, a staunchly Catholic education would lead to higher degrees of critical thinking than a more open multi-denominational education. I'd suggest the opposite is in fact true, and that critical thinking is nourished by exposure to a wide variety of belief systems, all of which are open to scrutiny.

I'd agree in principle.

In our case it'll probably be benign enough stuff though. At a certain cutoff the Catholic education will be lukewarm enough and there'll be so little general support for it that a kid would likely be challenged, but almost certainly not truly excluded.

Enough to promote healthy disagreement with teachers or your peers without being truly alienating, is my general thoughts.

Kiwi in IE

iguana wrote: »

How does little Kiwi feel about school? Does he sit out of religion class now and if so is he the only child who does and how does he feel about it? When I was in primary in the 80s there were 3 children from Jehovah's Witness families who sat out of religious lessons and any other lesson that had religious themes, like a story in the English book about the crucifixion. In all honesty most of the class were fairly envious of them as they would go sit together and draw pictures or read their own books for pleasure while we had to do stupid classwork. They were clearly having a lot more fun than we were. I don't think it impacted on their ability to make friends with the rest of the class or their popularity, but they might tell you otherwise for all I know. It possibly helped that they were a trio, so weren't left out alone. If your son is the only one not taking the religious lessons it would be a lot harder.

He doesn't sit out and would be the only one in his year if he did. There is another family in the school who are sitting their daughter out of communion this year. I'm meeting the mother for coffee on Monday to discuss. I made our position clear to the principal on enrolment and every year I have a meeting with the teacher and a 'preview' of the years religion book. I was told when we were weighing up our options of sitting out that the options are he goes to another class (same thing that happens to kids who are 'bold'), doesn't participate in the class/workbook but stays in the room or just participates. The school in fairness are lovely and Little Kiwi is happy there, is popular and has loads of friends. They tend to take the religion seriously and do it every day for a period. I was told that if we choose the other classroom/different workbook option that religion permeates the school day anyhow, so it will only be the standard curriculum part that he skips. I haven't sat him out so far, I don't really want him having to go to another class by himself as if he has misbehaved. If it is 'permeating the school day' anyway, what is the point in putting him through that? We will have him do alternative work next year when he hits 'communion year'. Apparently a huge amount of time is spend next year on religion and communion, I have heard other parents who are nominally Catholic, whose children have done it complain about how much time is wasted.

So far the text books have been silly, but apart from Angels visiting Mary in the night and asking her to accept being impregnated by God, not hugely worrying or offensive. Teach don't Preach have recently highlighted some garbage out of the later text books for the older classes, and provided links to the teachers guide for those years and some of it is horrendous. From next year on he will be sat out and doing other work still in the classroom while the rest do religion. I would be happy if there was a set time at beginning or end of day and no 'permeation' into other subjects, I would simply bring him in late/take him home early. I don't really feel as if I have a right to ask them to rearrange their whole schedule for us, it's not our fault that we are in this position, but nor is it theirs at the end of the day, they are just the unlucky ones of about 15 Catholic schools within reasonable distance that we picked! However this is something that I'm going to discuss with the other parent on Monday. There are 2 kids sitting out this year, the family I discussed who are also atheist and a Church of Ireland family. Next year when LK hits second class, he is the only one. No one sat out last year or the year before.

Little Kiwi frequently comes home and tell me what was discussed and I debunk anything that needs debunking. God made the world blah blah.

Kiwi in IE

haveringchick wrote: »

I don't know what you imagine is going on in the school Kiwi or what people have told you is going on but it's nothing like you describe
I think it's sad that you don't know the day to day details of your child's school life
Perhaps the Principal would allow you to participate in some way?
Do you volunteer for Sales of Work sports events and such like?
My daughter is doing the Leaving and apart from Communion and Confirmation (and as you know you don't have to participate ) there was very little about religion and absolutely none in Secondary
The amount of time your little one spends in school is minimal really and yet you imply that Catholicsm stalks the child in a threatening way at every opportunity ?
Do you have any examples of how your child is being bombarded as you describe by religion?

I thought I knew exactly what is going on in my child's school after discussing the issues at length with the principal and teachers, but it seems I was wrong and you know much better. Thanks for that, I'll discuss it with you from now on instead of the school.

KingBrian2

cnocbui wrote: »

I moved here from Australia. My daughter was born here. My son has been through the Irish education system from pre-school to College and is a perfectly sane and devout atheist. My daughter is half way through Secondary school and is also healthily atheist.

It's you who will determine how your children turn out, not the catholic education system.

That said, I'm out of here when it becomes practical. To be honest, having to learn Irish will cause far more grief for your children than any religious issues.

One of the motivations I have for leaving is the taxation and government charges issues, which are trending upwards and will continue to do so given the countries unsustainable and ever increasing level of debt.

Actually the debt has decreased over the last few years while it is important to have sustainable debt levels ruling out taxation altogether is not the best approach to tackling the problems in society. The Church could contribute more to the gvt.

smacl

catbear wrote: »

I actually think being exposed in some small dose with religion in school is like an inoculation against full blown religion later in life. It's better to develop a healthy cynicism early in life rather than encountering and embracing religion full on during a personal adult crisis.
Even in the antipodes I've observed that secular schooling is no protection from later religiosity.

Fair enough, but if you're inoculating against any debilitating or life threatening disease, you make sure what you inject is dead. Much as we don't go injecting our kids with live polio, there is a world of a difference between religious education and religious instruction. Nice analogy though....

Kiwi in IE

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Better have them see what religion is about now, than have them discover religion for themselves for the first time when they leave home.

I do totally agree with this and always planned to introduce him to religion, but all of the major ones, and not as fact. Which is what we still are doing, but in the meantime he is being told elsewhere that Catholicism is fact....

haveringchick

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

You actually think if people had to start acting Catholic (attending mass, adhering to Catholic doctrine, believing in transubstantiation, virgin births and stuff, rather than wearing ashes) that it would remain at 80%? I think that if Catholic people had to actually believe and practice, they'd be lucky to get 30%.

But why would you want to see others forcedinto doing anything Kiwi?
I think you feel that unless people adhere to the tenets of the religion they've labelled themselves with that they should be prevented by law from referring to themselves as Catholic Muslim Jewish, whatever
This would then, according to you, swing the upper hand in favour of religion-free people
Who do you feel should supervise the devotion of people who class themselves as religious?
Every time I go to mas or confession should I have to clock in and out?
You fell in love with an Irish person and made a massive life desicion to bring your little child to live in rural Ireland in the bosom of the Irish extended paternal family who were sucked out of hundreds of years of Catholicsm and you somehow thought that they would give all that up so as not to offend your sensibilities. Why would they do that?
You and your OH seemed to have decided at some stage to settle in the area in which you live without considering that your child would need to start school before age 6
The school is a Catholic school. It's always been a Catholic school. Is there a mass movement by local parents to change that? No? Well why should they all change to accommodate you?
If your OH misled you about Irish culture then that's an issue for the 2 of you, it's not for a whole community to overhaul itself to accommodate newcomers. That's not how the world works.

jimd2

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I don't want him being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. To me this stuff belongs back with age of 'witch' trials.

Where in Ireland are you located? Are you saying that this stuff you specifically mentioned has been taught in your child's school or do you expect it to be taught in the school?

Or did you just brainstorm as many hair brained beliefs etc and include them in your list.

My children have all gone through catholic school in a medium sized town in Ireland and I was always very close to what they did (in all subjects). I didn't have an obsession with one subject. I can safely say that this list of stuff was not covered in 4 different schools that they attended.

I would be really really interested in knowing the area where you have knowledge of or strongly suspect that the isues highlighted above are taught in school.

Regarding what you do, I really believe that you should think of the longer term for you and your husband and Little Kiwi. Where would ye be happiest generally, where would be best jobs wise and financially, standard of living etc. Perhaps a move to a more urban location within Ireland, not necessarily Dublin as it's very expensive. A biggish town maybe. Also, I would totally ignore the "Great aunts and uncles". My uncle lashed out at me over something related to this and I completely ignored him as it was none of his business. You have your opinions, and if you decide to stay around, develop a thivk skin for a few years. As others have said there are a lot of other priorities in secondary school.

Best of luck in your decision.

Kiwi in IE

haveringchick wrote: »

But why would you want to see others forcedinto doing anything Kiwi?
I think you feel that unless people adhere to the tenets of the religion they've labelled themselves with that they should be prevented by law from referring to themselves as Catholic Muslim Jewish, whatever
This would then, according to you, swing the upper hand in favour of religion-free people
Who do you feel should supervise the devotion of people who class themselves as religious?
Every time I go to mas or confession should I have to clock in and out?
You fell in love with an Irish person and made a massive life desicion to bring your little child to live in rural Ireland in the bosom of the Irish extended paternal family who were sucked out of hundreds of years of Catholicsm and you somehow thought that they would give all that up so as not to offend your sensibilities. Why would they do that?
You and your OH seemed to have decided at some stage to settle in the area in which you live without considering that your child would need to start school before age 6
The school is a Catholic school. It's always been a Catholic school. Is there a mass movement by local parents to change that? No? Well why should they all change to accommodate you?
If your OH misled you about Irish culture then that's an issue for the 2 of you, it's not for a whole community to overhaul itself to accommodate newcomers. That's not how the world works.

I'm not asking anyone to change, I'm asking them not to impose it on my family. They can do what they like in private, I only have an issue when it impacts on my life. I don't see any good reason why other people's religion should intrude into my life. In secular countries religion does not impact on anyone's life apart from those who want it to. Constitutionally Ireland is a supposedly secular country. My experience is that it is not. The point I was making is if the RCC decided tomorrow that everyone who wants to get matched/hatched/communioned/confirmed/dispatched in their church had to be practicing properly and living by Catholic doctrine, the percentage of Catholics would drop dramatically. If most people who call themselves Catholic don't really think that Catholic doctrine is important enough for them to want to follow, why are state schools teaching children that this is the correct way to live?

I'm glad you resurrected (no pun intended) that post by the way, I had accidentally deleted it when I was trying to edit while not concentrating.

cnocbui

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Actually the debt has decreased over the last few years while it is important to have sustainable debt levels ruling out taxation altogether is not the best approach to tackling the problems in society. The Church could contribute more to the gvt.

We appear to have the second highest debt per capita of any country. It does appear to have dropped slightly but the trend seems to be back upwards.

You get taxed on your income (fair enough), from what's left you are taxed another 23% anytime you spend any of it - wtf?

If you are foolish and lucky enough to be able to put aside any you are taxed at 41%. DIRT is such an appropriate name.

If you take out health insurance, there's an enormous great tax on that called a levy.

Want to insure the roof over your head - there's a massive levy on that too.

Want to own and operate a car - ha ha ha ha - bend over and touch your toes, sunshine.

You have to insure that car of course - you know the routine by now, there's a levy for that.

Wan't to put petrol in it do you? haven't you heard you personally need to save the planet so just open your wallet; what do mean 'how is that going to help?' just hand it over and be quick about it and don't ask impertinent questions.

Want to import a car from the UK do you? Now we're talking. You'll need to take out a second mortgage for this one. What do mean it's supposed to be a common market? Nice try, ha ha - cough up.

Oh you've had enough, have you? Sorry, you can't get away from us by dying, you ungrateful sneak. In the interests of compassion I would warn you that all that have gone before are going to look like pocket change, but YOU wont feel a thing, now will you?

KingBrian2

cnocbui wrote: »

We appear to have the second highest debt per capita of any country. It does appear to have dropped slightly but the trend seems to be back upwards.

You get taxed on your income (fair enough), from what's left you are taxed another 23% anytime you spend any of it - wtf?

If you are foolish and lucky enough to be able to put aside any you are taxed at 41%. DIRT is such an appropriate name.

If you take out health insurance, there's an enormous great tax on that called a levy.

Want to insure the roof over your head - there's a massive levy on that too.

Want to own and operate a car - ha ha ha ha - bend over and touch your toes, sunshine.

You have to insure that car of course - you know the routine by now, there's a levy for that.

Wan't to put petrol in it do you? haven't you heard you personally need to save the planet so just open your wallet; what do mean 'how is that going to help?' just hand it over and be quick about it and don't ask impertinent questions.

Want to import a car from the UK do you? Now we're talking. You'll need to take out a second mortgage for this one. What do mean it's supposed to be a common market? Nice try, ha ha - cough up.

Oh you've had enough, have you? Sorry, you can't get away from us by dying, you ungrateful sneak. In the interests of compassion I would warn you that all that have gone before are going to look like pocket change, but YOU wont feel a thing, now will you?

There are a lot of said examples of what you can't do. I am merely saying the level of debt has decreased and you can't completely stop taxation just because of election promises. That's no way to build an economy. Politicians will say anything to get elected but lets get real certain taxes are important. The Catholic Church could actually contribute a lot more. Your not saying the church don't have sufficient income.

cnocbui

KingBrian2 wrote: »

There are a lot of said examples of what you can't do. I am merely saying the level of debt has decreased and you can't completely stop taxation just because of election promises. That's no way to build an economy. Politicians will say anything to get elected but lets get real certain taxes are important. The Catholic Church could actually contribute a lot more. Your not saying the church don't have sufficient income.

Oh, if I had the power I would tax the Catholic church out of existence, but Ireland, despite it's cute pretenses to the contrary, is effectively a theocracy, so that isn't going to happen.

I really do empathise with the position the OP is in.

Hotblack Desiato

cnocbui wrote: »

I moved here from Australia. ...
One of the motivations I have for leaving is the taxation and government charges issues, which are trending upwards and will continue to do so given the countries unsustainable and ever increasing level of debt.

Debt/GDP ratio for Ireland is now below 100%.

Australia's debt/GDP is much lower (huge country, lots of resources, not that many people to spend it on) but not going in the right direction and the backside has fallen out of the commodities markets.

Bristolscale7

jimd2 wrote: »

Where in Ireland are you located? Are you saying that this stuff you specifically mentioned has been taught in your child's school or do you expect it to be taught in the school?

Or did you just brainstorm as many hair brained beliefs etc and include them in your list.

I've seen homework for my nephew in primary school in Clare. It was "Write a list of the things you are grateful to god for having." One can only imagine what pernicious **** the teacher was pushing in addition to that bull****. On the other hand, I have two friends who teach in primary schools and spend no time on religion. If forced to they read a few passages from the bible once a term that are of historical interest. It really is the luck of the draw, but there's no point in pretending that a substantial portion of Irish schools are run by true believer.

haveringchick

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I'm not asking anyone to change, I'm asking them not to impose it on my family. They can do what they like in private, I only have an issue when it impacts on my life. I don't see any good reason why other people's religion should intrude into my life. In secular countries religion does not impact on anyone's life apart from those who want it to. Constitutionally Ireland is a supposedly secular country. My experience is that it is not. The point I was making is if the RCC decided tomorrow that everyone who wants to get matched/hatched/communioned/confirmed/dispatched in their church had to be practicing properly and living by Catholic doctrine, the percentage of Catholics would drop dramatically. If most people who call themselves Catholic don't really think that Catholic doctrine is important enough for them to want to follow, why are state schools teaching children that this is the correct way to live?

I'm glad you resurrected (no pun intended) that post by the way, I had accidentally deleted it when I was trying to edit while not concentrating.

You brought your immediate family to live amongst your OHs extended family and you simply must have known that they were religious and that the only realistic choice of school in that area for your child was a school with a religious ethos
And still you came
Now it seems to me that as your ideals are not compatible with the ideals of the community that you CHOSE to come and live amongst that you had at least some expectations that somebody was going to make some changes
And that somebody wasn't going to be kiwi.
So how did you expect it to pan out?

cnocbui

haveringchick wrote: »

You brought your immediate family to live amongst your OHs extended family and you simply must have known that they were religious and that the only realistic choice of school in that area for your child was a school with a religious ethos
And still you came
Now it seems to me that as your ideals are not compatible with the ideals of the community that you CHOSE to come and live amongst that you had at least some expectations that somebody was going to make some changes
And that somebody wasn't going to be kiwi.
So how did you expect it to pan out?

Thinking you know what a foreign country might be like to live in turns out to be quite different to the actual experience, I have found. If we could just sit in a chair and imagine with perfection what a foreign country would be like to experience we wouldn't have to bother traveling there.

In the 21st century this country should NOT have a religion dominated and run education system when it's constitution pays lip-service to secularism. Teachers should not be selected on the basis of their religious conformity and have that determine their chance of employment.

iguana

haveringchick wrote: »

You brought your immediate family to live amongst your OHs extended family and you simply must have known that they were religious and that the only realistic choice of school in that area for your child was a school with a religious ethos

How in the name of Odin's grey beard would she have known that? Our schooling system is downright bizarre for a modern western democracy. Seriously unbelievably weird. Literally unbelievably as I've described our schooling system to friends in England who flat out refused to believe it, accusing me of exaggeration and hyperbole as it was genuinely inconceivable to them. There I was an Irish parent, living in Ireland describing our school system and they just could not get their heads around it. It was easier to think I was having a flight of fancy than to accept the realities that we live with. On British parenting forums I've been accused of "paddy-whackery" when describing the schooling system and told modern Ireland isn't like that anymore. I've spoken to Irish people who have only ever lived in Ireland who have been floored by how difficult it has been to get a school place for their (first generation non-baptised) children.

Hell, I've been well aware of the realities of it for years but even I came out of a meeting last week about the opening of a new secondary school in our 'feeder area' in shock at just what it means for people in various communities. At how many problems the stupid, stupid system causes for people who have opposing views about preferred patrons. It's just a hot-fuçking-mess, and that's before you get onto the issues of having RC subsidiaries in charge of the publishing of most school text books and the extremely slanted point of view presented in many subjects we ourselves were taught. How Kiwi was supposed to have the first clue that she was moving to educational bizzaroland?

haveringchick

cnocbui wrote: »

Thinking you know what a foreign country might be like to live in turns out to be quite different to the actual experience, I have found. If we could just sit in a chair and imagine with perfection what a foreign country would be like to experience we wouldn't have to bother traveling there.

In the 21st century this country should NOT have a religion dominated and run education system when it's constitution pays lip-service to secularism. Teachers should not be selected on the basis of their religious conformity and have that determine their chance of employment.

You seem to be saying that prior to your family desicion to move lock stock and barrel to the scene of your OHs childhood, returning as adults to what I presume is the area and the people and the culture he grew up in and was raised in, but that in the discussions about the move, he never mentioned that schools in Ireland are predominately Christian ethos, nor did either of you raise a query with his extended as to the availability of s non-religious school?
It's such a deal breaker now that your considering going to the other side of the world to get away from it, but prior to relocating here it wasn't a factor?
And your OH didn't mention that his family were religious and inclined to make religion a major factor in their everyday lives?
It's hard to believe, tbh

Kiwi in IE

haveringchick wrote: »

You brought your immediate family to live amongst your OHs extended family and you simply must have known that they were religious and that the only realistic choice of school in that area for your child was a school with a religious ethos
And still you came
Now it seems to me that as your ideals are not compatible with the ideals of the community that you CHOSE to come and live amongst that you had at least some expectations that somebody was going to make some changes
And that somebody wasn't going to be kiwi.
So how did you expect it to pan out?

Yes of course I knew OH's family were religious, as are lots of people, as are my sisters in laws back in NZ. She doesn't really have to worry about her children being indoctrinated though, because her children's grandparents religious beliefs are not reinforced by the state, that's just what Nana and Grandad believe, their teachers aren't also telling them that it is fact.

I didn't do enough research and I was naive and stupid not to in hindsight. OH had not lived in Ireland since he was 18 and didn't fully realise either. I stupidly assumed that Ireland was religious like England/France are religious. Because of where I come from, I had never viewed religion as anything that is problematic or undesirable in a society, because in a secular country it is not, no matter how many people are religious (see France), because religion is not forced on citizens, is a private business and everyone has freedom of and from religion. Seeing as Ireland is a First World Western country which claims to be constitutionally secular, I stupidly assumed it would be. I did not actually know that every single school out of many within the manageable vacinity were religious until I went to enroll LK. Yes it's my own fault that I didn't do enough research, but there it is. I knew that there had been problems with sectarianism obviously, so looked up whether Ireland was secular and took that in good faith. I take responsibility for not researching the school system properly, but there is certainly an element of false advertising as well!

As for the general tone of your post, read the OP again. Am I asking Ireland to change, or am I saying that after giving it a good go, I've realised that I don't think it's for me and therefore am likely going to leave?

haveringchick

iguana wrote: »

How in the name of Odin's grey beard would she have known that? Our schooling system is downright bizarre for a modern western democracy. Seriously unbelievably weird. Literally unbelievably as I've described our schooling system to friends in England who flat out refused to believe it, accusing me of exaggeration and hyperbole as it was genuinely inconceivable to them. There I was an Irish parent, living in Ireland describing our school system and they just could not get their heads around it. It was easier to think I was having a flight of fancy than to accept the realities that we live with. On British parenting forums I've been accused of "paddy-whackery" when describing the schooling system and told modern Ireland isn't like that anymore. I've spoken to Irish people who have only ever lived in Ireland who have been floored by how difficult it has been to get a school place for their (first generation non-baptised) children.

Hell, I've been well aware of the realities of it for years but even I came out of a meeting last week about the opening of a new secondary school in our 'feeder area' in shock at just what it means for people in various communities. At how many problems the stupid, stupid system causes for people who have opposing views about preferred patrons. It's just a hot-fuçking-mess, and that's before you get onto the issues of having RC subsidiaries in charge of the publishing of most school text books and the extremely slanted point of many subjects we ourselves were taught. How Kiwi was supposed to have the first clue that she was moving to educational bizzaroland?

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I've got the impression that the OPs other half is an Itish national who hails from the immediate area and family in which they currently reside?
If I'm wrong I'll withdraw my post.
If I'm not wrong the how could they not have known how it was going to be?

catbear

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Am I asking Ireland to change, or am I saying that after giving it a good go, I've realised that I don't think it's for me and therefore am likely going to leave?

Just to clarify, is it the only reason you want to leave? There isn't anything else?

I ask because I've worked secular societies like the US, Aus and NZ and I've met more religious wackos there than I do here nowadays. Irelands religiosity is on the wane whereas it seems to be growing on all those other places in reaction to tensions with emigration.

Plus your hubby went through the system and that didn't stop you marrying him. If you find it objectionable now then why don't you divorce him on a point of principle.

haveringchick

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Yes of course I knew OH's family were religious, as are lots of people, as are my sisters in laws back in NZ. She doesn't really have to worry about her children being indoctrinated though, because her children's grandparents religious beliefs are not reinforced by the state, that's just what Nana and Grandad believe, their teachers aren't also telling them that it is fact.

I didn't do enough research and I was naive and stupid not to in hindsight. OH had not lived in Ireland since he was 18 and didn't fully realise either. I stupidly assumed that Ireland was religious like England/France are religious. Because of where I come from, I had never viewed religion as anything that is problematic or undesirable in a society, because in a secular country it is not, no matter how many people are religious (see France), because religion is not forced on citizens, is a private business and everyone has freedom of and from religion. Seeing as Ireland is a First World Western country which claims to be constitutionally secular, I stupidly assumed it would be. I did not actually know that every single school out of many within the manageable vacinity were religious until I went to enroll LK. Yes it's my own fault that I didn't do enough research, but there it is. I knew that there had been problems with sectarianism obviously, so looked up whether Ireland was secular and took that in good faith. I take responsibility for not researching the school system properly, but there is certainly an element of false advertising as well!

As for the general tone of your post, read the OP again. Am I asking Ireland to change, or am I saying that after giving it a good go, I've realised that I don't think it's for me and therefore am likely going to leave?

I hope the tone of my post reflects my utter incredulity
Your husband lived here, went to school here, played and mixed and fought and loved and was loved by a large extended family, left at 18 and had his memory bank wiped?
Or just, for some reason, omitted to fill you in on how it would be, before you returned, allowing you to make assumptions which influenced your desicion, which have ultimaley proved to be groundless
I'm going to leave it here as it's Saturday night, but I wish you well in your next home and hope you will have at least some happy memories of us.

Kiwi in IE

haveringchick wrote: »

You seem to be saying that prior to your family desicion to move lock stock and barrel to the scene of your OHs childhood, returning as adults to what I presume is the area and the people and the culture he grew up in and was raised in, but that in the discussions about the move, he never mentioned that schools in Ireland are predominately Christian ethos, nor did either of you raise a query with his extended as to the availability of s non-religious school?
It's such a deal breaker now that your considering going to the other side of the world to get away from it, but prior to relocating here it wasn't a factor?
And your OH didn't mention that his family were religious and inclined to make religion a major factor in their everyday lives?
It's hard to believe, tbh

I think you are confusing myself and cnocbui, s/he has said they wish to return to Australia for different reasons.

As for my OH, he left Ireland as a child (17) to study in England and didn't return until we moved here 6 years ago. He was brought up in a religious household, went to a religious school and was surrounded by other religious people. He put this down to his families choices, not the country. I didn't specifically ask if every school was religious because it never crossed my mind that every school might be religious in a first world, western, constitutionally secular country where schools are funded by the (secular) state. I first stumbled on the A&A forum and joined boards in 2012 after looking at schools for LK, finding out the state of them and desperately needing to find other atheists to talk to.

Edit: OH left Ireland when he was 17, I previously said 18, but it was 18 years since he had lived in the country (before I'm pulled up on the inconsistency by a pedant)

OH was as shocked as me to find out that every school is religious and no I certainly don't want to divorce him because the country he comes from pretends to be secular when it isn't, whoever made that ridiculous suggestion, it's hardly his fault is it. I don't think it's normal behaviour to divorce your spouse over what you don't like about their country.

cnocbui

haveringchick wrote: »

You seem to be saying that prior to your family desicion to move lock stock and barrel to the scene of your OHs childhood, returning as adults to what I presume is the area and the people and the culture he grew up in and was raised in, but that in the discussions about the move, he never mentioned that schools in Ireland are predominately Christian ethos, nor did either of you raise a query with his extended as to the availability of s non-religious school?
It's such a deal breaker now that your considering going to the other side of the world to get away from it, but prior to relocating here it wasn't a factor?
And your OH didn't mention that his family were religious and inclined to make religion a major factor in their everyday lives?
It's hard to believe, tbh

What on earth are you going on about? There is not a word I have said that relates to anything you have invented, which is all completely wrong.

I specifically said that I didn't think the religious nature of the education system would have much of an effect on the OP's child in the way that they seemed to fear.

The_Valeyard

If you are heading home you better be signing up to this

http://religioninschools.co.nz/


You might just be changing from a Catholic system to Anglican or church of England system.


Seems you will still be facing the same issues there.

Kiwi in IE

catbear wrote: »

Just to clarify, is it the only reason you want to leave? There isn't anything else?

I ask because I've worked secular societies like the US, Aus and NZ and I've met more religious wackos there than I do here nowadays. Irelands religiosity is on the wane whereas it seems to be growing on all those other places in reaction to tensions with emigration.

Plus your hubby went through the system and that didn't stop you marrying him. If you find it objectionable now then why don't you divorce him on a point of principle.

Are the schools in those countries indoctrinating your kids with religious whackery, or is it just individual people? There are loads of religious whackos in NZ, but the difference is that the state is not influenced by them, and therefore their religious whackery is not forced upon everyone. Not the case here.

Why would the religious school system in Ireland have stopped me from marrying my husband? Don't be ridiculous. As for suggesting that I divorce him because I find the school system in his country of birth objectionable as a 'point of principle', are you sober?

Kiwi in IE

The_Valeyard wrote: »

If you are heading home you better be signing up to this

http://religioninschools.co.nz/


You might just be changing from a Catholic system to Anglican or church of England system.


Seems you will still be facing the same issues there.

No I won't sign that because they are talking about private schools and semi private schools. Semi private schools are schools who get some state funding but in exchange have to take a certain percentage of students who are not of the religion and parents have to make a small (compared to fully private) contribution. Private schools are not funded by the state and charge the parents huge fees. They can do what they like. They are not talking about the fully state run and funded schools which are secular and suitable for all children. If religious parents want to pay fees to have religious indoctrination added to their kids school day, good for them!

The_Valeyard

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

No I won't sign that because they are talking about private schools and semi private schools. Semi private schools are schools who get some state funding but in exchange have to take a certain percentage of students who are not of the religion and parents have to make a small (compared to fully private) contribution. Private schools are not funded by the state and charge the parents huge fees. They can do what they like. They are not talking about the fully state run and funded schools which are secular and suitable for all children. If religious parents want to pay fees to have religious indoctrination added to their kids school day, good for them!

But there primary goal is to remove religion from State run primary schools, not private ones??

Hotblack Desiato

haveringchick wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I've got the impression that the OPs other half is an Itish national who hails from the immediate area and family in which they currently reside?
If I'm wrong I'll withdraw my post.
If I'm not wrong the how could they not have known how it was going to be?

Perhaps after some years out of the country they thought it wasn't still stuck in a 1930s time-warp in the 21st century? how silly of them.

haveringchick wrote: »

I'm going to leave it here as it's Saturday night, but I wish you well in your next home and hope you will have at least some happy memories of us.

Happy memories of everyone I expect, except for the "This is a catholic country, get used to it or f off" internet blowhards.

Kiwi in IE

The_Valeyard wrote: »

But there primary goal is to remove religion from State run primary schools, not private ones??

All teaching in state schools must be secular, if a state school wishes to offer religious instruction, it must close the school while the instruction is taking place, and they are allowed a maximum of 20 hours a year. This is what that website is wanting removed from state schools. I wouldn't be bothered, if the school is closed, outside hours, you are not obliged to attend, and all teaching during the hours the school is open must be secular. It's very, very different from the Irish school system.


From: https://www.hrc.co.nz/files/9414/2387/8011/HRC-Religion-in-NZ-Schools-for-web.pdf

Q6. What does the Education Act say about religion in state primary schools?


• Section 77 states that teaching must be secular during the hours a school is open for instruction

• Section 78 allows a school (or part of a school) to close for up to one hour a week up to a total of 20 hours a year for religious instruction or religious observance, to be conducted in a manner approved by the school’s Board of Trustees

• Section 79 allows children to opt out if their parents do not wish them to participate in religious ceremonies or teaching.

catbear

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Why would the religious school system in Ireland have stopped me from marrying my husband? Don't be ridiculous. As for suggesting that I divorce him because I find the school system in his country of birth objectionable as a 'point of principle', are you sober?

Would you object if your kids turned out like him through the same system? Its a logical inference from your objections.

Kiwi in IE

catbear wrote: »

Would you object if your kids turned out like him through the same system? Its a logical inference from your objections.

logical
ˈlɒdʒɪk(ə)l/
adjective

characterized by or capable of clear, sound reasoning.
"her logical mind"
synonyms: reasoned, well reasoned, rational, sound, cogent, well thought out, valid;


There is nothing about any of your posts in this thread, especially the above that fit this definition.

catbear

You cite an objection to religion in schools as a reason to move back to New Zealand. This is the same school system your husband went through but you didn't object to marrying him, a product of that system.

It's logical to conclude that there's another reason you want to go back to NZ and you don't want to admit it.

gctest50

catbear wrote: »

Just to clarify, is it the only reason you want to leave? There isn't anything else?

I ask because I've worked secular societies like the US, Aus and NZ and I've met more religious wackos there than I do here nowadays. Irelands religiosity is on the wane whereas it seems to be growing on all those other places in reaction to tensions with emigration.

Plus your hubby went through the system and that didn't stop you marrying him. If you find it objectionable now then why don't you divorce him on a point of principle.

It's a contrast thing, they just stand out more

Kiwi in IE

catbear wrote: »

You cite an objection to religion in schools as a reason to move back to New Zealand. This is the same school system your husband went through but you didn't object to marrying him, a product of that system.

It's logical to conclude that there's another reason you want to go back to NZ and you don't want to admit it.

So because some people survive religious indoctrination and come out normal, there must be nothing wrong with state sanctioned religious indoctrination in secular countries? Is that what you are trying to say? Please leave my relationship out of this, I don't know if you are trying to be intentionally offensive with your ridiculous posts, or if you are simply a product of a education that spent too much time on religion and not enough on reasoning.

catbear

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

So because some people survive religious indoctrination and come out normal, there must be nothing wrong with state sanctioned religious indoctrination in secular countries? Is that what you are trying to say? Please leave my relationship out of this, I don't know if you are trying to be intentionally offensive with your ridiculous posts, or if you are simply a product of a education that spent too much time on religion and not enough on reasoning.

I think you just want to go back home. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way, you don't need an excuse.

Canadel

catbear wrote: »

I think you just want to go back home. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way, you don't need an excuse.

That still doesn't mean the excuse they're citing is not entirely valid.

listermint

I don't really get this thread at all. It appears the OP literally has no personal experience of the school system.

I'm born and raised a catholic brought to church most of my life not by over bearing catholics just run of the mill parent mother rarely went but on occasions usual Irish jazz.

Went through the school system same as my partner and all my friends

Roll forward the clock this year I have 5 humanist wedding's to go to including my own. Last year we broke the world stigma with equal marriage rights for gay people.

I mean what more does the op want . As has already been stated I think they just want to go home . A friend is married to a kiwi went home to live came straight back again hated the way his morman parents where ....


Swings and roundabouts op but you can't blame over bearing authoritarian cathoilc educators they don't exist anymore.

Cabaal

listermint wrote: »

I mean what more does the op want .

To not have indoctrination and exclusion in school system?, I'm Irish, grew up in Ireland and this is what I want also.
Its really not alot to ask.

Swings and roundabouts op but you can't blame over bearing authoritarian cathoilc educators they don't exist anymore.

Don't exist? I think you're wrong about that,
Over 92% of our schools still remain catholic ethos so they very much do exist.

As we already know a school can turn around to a parent and tell the parent that they (the parent) cannot opt their child out of the schools religion classes in such a school.

Only when the schools stance on the matter was plastered all over the media did the school change their decision,

We've also had catholic ethos schools refuse to allow pregnant teenagers to attend school saying they did not accept "such girls".

A backwards mindset still very much exists in many a catholic ethos schools in Ireland, that is without question. To say otherwise is just white washing the issue. The op has legitimate concerns, many of which I share myself.

I've spoken to many teachers in catholic ethos schools over the years, while some have no interest in the religious education and do it because they have. Others see the 10% of school time wasted on communion prep at primary level as not a big deal,

listermint

Cabaal wrote: »

To not have indoctrination and exclusion in school system?, I'm Irish, grew up in Ireland and this is what I want also.
Its really not alot to ask.



Don't exist? I think you're wrong about that,
Over 92% of our schools still remain catholic ethos so they very much do exist.

As we already know a school can turn around to a parent and tell the parent that they (the parent) cannot opt their child out of the schools religion classes in such a school.

Only when the schools stance on the matter was plastered all over the media did the school change their decision,

We've also had catholic ethos schools refuse to allow pregnant teenagers to attend school saying they did not accept "such girls".

A backwards mindset still very much exists in many a catholic ethos schools in Ireland, that is without question. To say otherwise is just white washing the issue. The op has legitimate concerns, many of which I share myself.

I've spoken to many teachers in catholic ethos schools over the years, while some have no interest in the religious education and do it because they have. Others see the 10% of school time wasted on communion prep at primary level as not a big deal,

Hey I'm all for removing the church aspect out of the schools and making more secular and tbh I think that is going to happen its becoming more visible.

But also have to face the reality alot of these 'catholic' schools don't even have brothers or nuns left in them more often than not they are run more like community schools in terms of so called doctrine yes the entry system needs to change and soon.

But Franky I firmly believe the OP just wants to go home.

Thats how it reads to me.

looksee

listermint wrote: »

Hey I'm all for removing the church aspect out of the schools and making more secular and tbh I think that is going to happen its becoming more visible.

But also have to face the reality alot of these 'catholic' schools don't even have brothers or nuns left in them more often than not they are run more like community schools in terms of so called doctrine yes the entry system needs to change and soon.

But Franky I firmly believe the OP just wants to go home.

Thats how it reads to me.

And the highlighted sentence above just shows how little you know about the realities of much current Irish education, or the system.

Whether or not Kiwi just wants to go home is pure speculation on your part, and irrelevant to the discussion.

listermint

looksee wrote: »

And the highlighted sentence above just shows how little you know about the realities of much current Irish education, or the system.

Whether or not Kiwi just wants to go home is pure speculation on your part, and irrelevant to the discussion.

Ah right I didn't actually go through it at all. The only remnants of the past in most schools is a couple of board members. There isn't this mass group of brothers and priests teaching be a bit factual will you.

There is no brainwashing going on here as I said already I'm going to 5 humanist wedding's his year I must be living in some different Ireland where people don't go to mass don't get married in catholic churches and choose you know do your own thing

smacl

listermint wrote: »

Ah right I didn't actually go through it at all. The only remnants of the past in most schools is a couple of board members. There isn't this mass group of brothers and priests teaching be a bit factual will you.

There is no brainwashing going on here as I said already I'm going to 5 humanist wedding's his year I must be living in some different Ireland where people don't go to mass don't get married in catholic churches and choose you know do your own thing

Having gone to one Catholic school some years ago doesn't exactly give you the expertise to make broad statements about all Catholic schools, as you haven't been to them nor know how they work. You're simply extrapolating on personal experience which is anecdotal at best. At the same time it is well documented that many parents are either being excluded from Catholic run state funded schools or unreasonably coerced into taking religious instruction for a religion that they're not part of.

FWIW, the number of humanist weddings you attend doesn't really further your knowledge of the Irish education system either. It is simply an indicator that many people are turning away from the Catholic church in later life, despite the best efforts of the church to forcefully inculcate religious belief in young children.

looksee

listermint wrote: »

Ah right I didn't actually go through it at all. The only remnants of the past in most schools is a couple of board members. There isn't this mass group of brothers and priests teaching be a bit factual will you.

There is no brainwashing going on here as I said already I'm going to 5 humanist wedding's his year I must be living in some different Ireland where people don't go to mass don't get married in catholic churches and choose you know do your own thing

None of us is being other than 'factual'. You are the only person who has brought up the notion of schools being full of nuns and brothers. This is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Firstly lay people are just as capable of indoctrination as nuns and brothers; primary school teachers have to have a (Catholic issued) certificate showing their ability to teach RC faith to get a job in a Catholic primary school. And secondly the Board of Management is enabled by the school Patron, the RC church in the vast majority of cases, the Patron has the last word on anything, and is specificially there to ensure that the religious ethos of the school is maintained. The Board of Management only exists if the Patron wishes it.

The fact that you are going to so many humanist weddings highlights to some extent the lack of enthusiasm among the population for this RC-centric education system.

haveringchick

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Perhaps after some years out of the country they thought it wasn't still stuck in a 1930s time-warp in the 21st century? how silly of them.



Happy memories of everyone I expect, except for the "This is a catholic country, get used to it or f off" internet blowhards.

But her OH unless they were marooned on a desert island must have been in touch with his family, were there no visits home? None?
Plus you don't just forget what your family are like, your entire teenage years, the pressure, the constraints, the twitching curtains.
It's not Catholicsm. The Catholicsm is gone
It's our culture
It's who we are
Unless you've lived in proper rural Ireland you can't comment
There was no reason for thinking it would have changed
And no excuse for not knowing before hand that it hadn't