Bad language of students

icebergiceberg

Are you exposed to much bad language in your school over the course of a day? Bad language amongst students themselves or indeed directed at another student or indeed you.

If you work in a very 'good' school you may not hear much of it so you may be shocked if you heard it in your class or while walking along the corridor and so on.

If you work in a school which is not a 'good' school you may hear it more frequently. You may not be as shocked as others. It may be so prevalent that you become immune. Might even turn the other way perhaps to save yourself some pain?

How do you deal with students using bad language? What would shock you? What would you find unacceptable?

spurious

It was one of the lesser reasons I left teaching. I don't need to hear the f word ten times before ten in the morning, no matter who it's directed at.
You call the parents in about it and they laugh at you - no mystery where they get it.

r93kaey5p2izun

I hear bad language all day in school. It is a constant presence and every second sentence is peppered with swear words. This is almost exclusively in coversation between students and is mostly not abusive. ie "f**k sake" or "I'm f**king wrecked" etc.

Terms of abuse directed at other students are something I hear several times a day, but 99% of the time it is said in jest between friends.

The school's unofficial policy is to ignore everything except abusive bad language being directed at a member of staff or another student. Teachers can crack down on general bad language if they choose but there would be no support from management in the event of any resistance from the student or their parents. This language is just accepted as the normal everyday language of the area.

icebergiceberg

Rhett Loud Metal wrote: »

I hear bad language all day in school. It is a constant presence and every second sentence is peppered with swear words. This is almost exclusively in coversation between students and is mostly not abusive. ie "f**k sake" or "I'm f**king wrecked" etc.

Terms of abuse directed at other students are something I hear several times a day, but 99% of the time it is said in jest between friends.

The school's unofficial policy is to ignore everything except abusive bad language being directed at a member of staff or another student. Teachers can crack down on general bad language if they choose but there would be no support from management in the event of any resistance from the student or their parents. This language is just accepted as the normal everyday language of the area.

Hmm...

It is everywhere. This language. It has taken on the currency of normal, or should I say the acceptable now. Students don't seem particularly bothered even if you are in earshot. Parents as bad.

Rap music. Is there anything worse? Is there anything f.....g worse? Couldn't quote two lines from Wordsworth yet they can rap all day about them f.....g b.tches and suchlike

Looking away. Not hearing. Not wanting to enter the fray. These are all strategies that I am afraid to say I use.

But why is it like this? In my day, we were no angels, but we did not speak with such crudeness and with such shamelessness as that.

I don't think there was much talking to parents in those days.
The leather did the talking.




.

evolving_doors

For rap music it needs to be thought of in terms of the values it espouses and what's behind it (mysogony/violence/poverty/greed etc). Have a look at David Starkey's interpretation (in that it's nothing new!!) ..go to about 19mins20secs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1AH_lKDQF8

But how would you challenge it if it's totally acceptable... maybe one student at a time. It's probably not much of a help but it reminds me of the film 'Detachment' with Adrian Brody, James Caan plays another teacher who calls another student on the choice language (Search for "james caan detachment" and the first video.. but not for the faint hearted).

I think it's more about an inability to express a thought clearly. It's like using a meme or an emoji instead of bothering to give your own personal response. It's just lazyness.

icebergiceberg

Gebgbegb wrote: »

For rap music it needs to be thought of in terms of the values it espouses and what's behind it (mysogony/violence/poverty/greed etc). Have a look at David Starkey's interpretation (in that it's nothing new!!) ..go to about 19mins20secs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1AH_lKDQF8

But how would you challenge it if it's totally acceptable... maybe one student at a time. It's probably not much of a help but it reminds me of the film 'Detachment' with Adrian Brody, James Caan plays another teacher who calls another student on the choice language (Search for "james caan detachment" and the first video.. but not for the faint hearted).

I think it's more about an inability to express a thought clearly. It's like using a meme or an emoji instead of bothering to give your own personal response. It's just lazyness.

Saw that series. Starkey is a professor from some university or other thrown into a school in East London is it or somewhere like that? A fish out of water. Very embarrassing. He may have said something like:'The trouble with you people is ...'.

I have never heard of that film you mentioned and I have never seen a film about school/teachers that in any way really interesting or reflected the way I feel about school and all the people in it. Films, usually American films, invariably always feature an English teacher trying to connect with a baddie in the class. Dead Poet's Society? Way too fantastic. (Mind you I did like a series way back called Paperchase with John Houseman as a Prof of Law.)

Inability to express a thought clearly as a reason for bad language? Yes. Many kids simply get frustrated because they don't know what they want and can't articulate what they want. But that is normal for a kid. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to be f.....g and blinding everywhere.

I think by the time they come to second level if they are using language so loosely like that then it really is too late for schools to intervene particularly if they come from a family who do not value good manners. A family that will not support schools in trying to curb bad language means the school really has no chance of changing that behaviour.

evolving_doors

I agree the whole 'jamie oliver dream school' project was a bit cringeworthy 'well-intentioned TV' but I don't think it should take away from the import of what Starkey was saying (and I reckon the students agreed with him too about the meaning behind the bad language). The language is indicative of a culture.

But what to do icebergiceberg? do we...
A. explore the bad language with a student and tease apart the words to question their meaning...
B. or tell them to tone it down..
C or just let it slide !

Im usually option B or C above (although the school is pretty tame to say the least). To my mind I think it's analogous to school uniforms (this is not a debate about school uniforms though).. if a school has a school uniform then we know it's a constant dance around the rules, but let things slide and it descends into a mess, the solution to fix it is the same: Staff meeting, get everyone on board, change the culture.

So really we're on a hiding to nothing if we expect students 100% to 'switch off' in the presence of teachers who don't tolerate it, and then switch back on when they know they can get away with it. I know there are schools were parents don't give a hoot about language but yet the students just know not to do it in school. A school is a culture and cultures can be changed if there is a critical mass. Not saying it's easy though, but at the very least if all teachers showed their disapproval in some form ( without too much sanctioning initially) then at least it might be a start.

How about starting with the 1st years and explicitly telling them that they are going to become the leaders for the next 6 years and bad language is being phased out. Yes they will be punished and other years let go... but that's the way it has to be.

icebergiceberg

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I agree the whole 'jamie oliver dream school' project was a bit cringeworthy 'well-intentioned TV' but I don't think it should take away from the import of what Starkey was saying (and I reckon the students agreed with him too about the meaning behind the bad language). The language is indicative of a culture.

But what to do icebergiceberg? do we...
A. explore the bad language with a student and tease apart the words to question their meaning...
B. or tell them to tone it down..
C or just let it slide !

Im usually option B or C above (although the school is pretty tame to say the least). To my mind I think it's analogous to school uniforms (this is not a debate about school uniforms though).. if a school has a school uniform then we know it's a constant dance around the rules, but let things slide and it descends into a mess, the solution to fix it is the same: Staff meeting, get everyone on board, change the culture.

So really we're on a hiding to nothing if we expect students 100% to 'switch off' in the presence of teachers who don't tolerate it, and then switch back on when they know they can get away with it. I know there are schools were parents don't give a hoot about language but yet the students just know not to do it in school. A school is a culture and cultures can be changed if there is a critical mass. Not saying it's easy though, but at the very least if all teachers showed their disapproval in some form ( without too much sanctioning initially) then at least it might be a start.

How about starting with the 1st years and explicitly telling them that they are going to become the leaders for the next 6 years and bad language is being phased out. Yes they will be punished and other years let go... but that's the way it has to be.

'None of that! Watch your language, PLEASE! Michele!!!' That's all I can do for the average utterances. Your last point re starting with first years is a good practical step forward. It's interesting because we had talked about (talked about, mind) doing things with first years only, not just bad language.

However, it never got past the talking stage. Parents can easily say: 'How come my son got punished for doing this when another student didn't for the same thing?' They could not really see past the short term and that the school is actually trying to improve standards. They do have a point. It might be a point developed by their solicitor however well intentioned the school might be.

evolving_doors

icebergiceberg wrote: »

'None of that! Watch your language, PLEASE! Michele!!!' That's all I can do for the average utterances. Your last point re starting with first years is a good practical step forward. It's interesting because we had talked about (talked about, mind) doing things with first years only, not just bad language.

However, it never got past the talking stage. Parents can easily say: 'How come my son got punished for doing this when another student didn't for the same thing?' They could not really see past the short term and that the school is actually trying to improve standards. They do have a point. It might be a point developed by their solicitor however well intentioned the school might be.

I dunno, it's a bit too soft to say "what about the solicitors" in terms of bad language. In the heel of the hunt who would grease a solicitors palm just to bring a case to court because their 1st yr child had been unfairly treated by being given a mild punsihment when a third year was allegedly overheard swearing somewhere else!! Every single day punishments are dished out to different students at different levels deemed to be appropriate by different teachers (for the same infraction even!).

Maybe a letter home in the journal to say that it's being phased out starting with 1st years and get parents to buy in and sign up (who would refuse that?). Stick it in the behaviour policy and put it with all the other documentation on the net so nobody can claim that it wasn't flagged.

It's the same as mobile phone use... some schools can succeed in getting students to put away phones during between class time, other schools say it's impossible because of legal actions. I think it's all comes down to parental consent and careful wording. Day 1/1st year september, parents can sign up to these policies and get on board (that's the legal threats greatly diminished). Trying to do it all mid-year though with exams looming is just asking for more Joe Duffy 'school vs my dear son' stories.

icebergiceberg

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I dunno, it's a bit too soft to say "what about the solicitors" in terms of bad language. In the heel of the hunt who would grease a solicitors palm just to bring a case to court because their 1st yr child had been unfairly treated by being given a mild punsihment when a third year was allegedly overheard swearing somewhere else!! Every single day punishments are dished out to different students at different levels deemed to be appropriate by different teachers (for the same infraction even!).

Maybe a letter home in the journal to say that it's being phased out starting with 1st years and get parents to buy in and sign up (who would refuse that?). Stick it in the behaviour policy and put it with all the other documentation on the net so nobody can claim that it wasn't flagged.

It's the same as mobile phone use... some schools can succeed in getting students to put away phones during between class time, other schools say it's impossible because of legal actions. I think it's all comes down to parental consent and careful wording. Day 1/1st year september, parents can sign up to these policies and get on board (that's the legal threats greatly diminished). Trying to do it all mid-year though with exams looming is just asking for more Joe Duffy 'school vs my dear son' stories.

Some parents are not in the least bothered by any wording, carefully worded or not, because they have difficulty in reading. It really does not mean anything to them. I know this from past, sad experience.

The most important agent for change comes from the principal. A strong, interested principal can do stuff. I don't know how many times at meetings we have discussed, for example, use of mobiles. Wandering between classes. Bad language. Bullying. Being respectful. By God we could change the world at those meetings.

But the principal was not really interested in leading the tough business of following up on things. And everyone else just doesn't bother then.

evolving_doors

icebergiceberg wrote: »

Some parents are not in the least bothered by any wording, carefully worded or not, because they have difficulty in reading. It really does not mean anything to them. I know this from past, sad experience.

I get what your saying in terms of parental consent to the rules etc, but still I'm sure they have to sign some type of enrolment form for their child to attend the school. Maybe something simple like "I agree that my child has to abide by the rules of this school contained in this info pack (and also available on the website)". Maybe during the induction day for 1st years the year-head goes through the rules verbally with the parents and then they sign the form. Then whatever happens ignorance cannot be used as a defence.

icebergiceberg wrote: »

The most important agent for change comes from the principal. A strong, interested principal can do stuff. I don't know how many times at meetings we have discussed, for example, use of mobiles. Wandering between classes. Bad language. Bullying. Being respectful. By God we could change the world at those meetings.

But the principal was not really interested in leading the tough business of following up on things. And everyone else just doesn't bother then.

Do any senior staff ever take on an initiative! (Like an anti-bullying co-ordinator, Literacy Numeracy strategy, green schools coordinator etc.). All of our AP's regularly take on a policy initiative and ask for volunteer teachers to give input. Basically if you are looking for an A-post in the future you have to tick that box in the interview (scarce and all as those posts are!). It could be a case of 'just' asking the principal if you could take the lead and give a rousing speech at one meeting and then just stick it on the agenda for future meetings to review how it's going. Maybe teachers wont have the power to suspend students and infractions will be retracted once a parent comes knocking, but I think there might be an overall critical mass to change things with the rest of the students.

Just out of interest, how do things fare when there are visitors to the school (for talks etc.) Do you have to bury your head in shame when walking visitors through the corridors?
What's it like visiting other schools for matches? Are supporters allowed to go or would they be just too mouthy?.

spurious

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Just out of interest, how do things fare when there are visitors to the school (for talks etc.) Do you have to bury your head in shame when walking visitors through the corridors?
What's it like visiting other schools for matches? Are supporters allowed to go or would they be just too mouthy?.

Oh God, the times I just wanted the earth to open up. People would say I was making up stories if I told you some of the stories.
I actually denied being connected to them in any way on a trip to the UK. They became feral when they got together with their exchange counterparts who seemed to have had the same quality of parenting.

We went to a park once. Me, another teacher and only six 2nd year students. No possibility of a problem - you would think.

Oh no, when they hit the grass they became completely mad. One guy ripped off the top half of his clothing and rolled around on the grass, rubbing his chest and making animal noises. I left him and the other two boys who were up a tree to the male teacher and tried to gather the girls together who had chosen to fling stones at squirrels, oblivious (perhaps) that the stones, when coming down, were peppering a group of mothers with children in prams the far side of the trees. It was like the Luftwaffe in full flight.

They then saw the park playground and charged like a herd of elephants to jump all over the slides etc.. Meanwhile I'm there like a right twit with my clipboards and worksheets and multi-coloured pens, trying to get them to write down the names of the trees they can see.

My only bit of amusement was the 'oh bless you, working with the afflicted' looks I got from some passers by. I think some young people genuinely have no idea how they appear to civilians, certainly not those who shout 'This is shoite!!' at the top of their voices in a theatre, all the while rummaging in their trackies for their genitals.

Oh, how I do not miss it.

icebergiceberg

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I get what your saying in terms of parental consent to the rules etc, but still I'm sure they have to sign some type of enrolment form for their child to attend the school. Maybe something simple like "I agree that my child has to abide by the rules of this school contained in this info pack (and also available on the website)". Maybe during the induction day for 1st years the year-head goes through the rules verbally with the parents and then they sign the form. Then whatever happens ignorance cannot be used as a defence.

Do any senior staff ever take on an initiative! (Like an anti-bullying co-ordinator, Literacy Numeracy strategy, green schools coordinator etc.). All of our AP's regularly take on a policy initiative and ask for volunteer teachers to give input. Basically if you are looking for an A-post in the future you have to tick that box in the interview (scarce and all as those posts are!). It could be a case of 'just' asking the principal if you could take the lead and give a rousing speech at one meeting and then just stick it on the agenda for future meetings to review how it's going. Maybe teachers wont have the power to suspend students and infractions will be retracted once a parent comes knocking, but I think there might be an overall critical mass to change things with the rest of the students.

Just out of interest, how do things fare when there are visitors to the school (for talks etc.) Do you have to bury your head in shame when walking visitors through the corridors?
What's it like visiting other schools for matches? Are supporters allowed to go or would they be just too mouthy?.

Yeah. Rules are explained to parents and student. In person. And an agreement is signed. 'I promise to abide by the rules of ... . The use of bad language is taken very seriously at ...'. etc etc.

It has no real importance however. If the students' background is such that their every second word is f this and f that, we really can't do much to end that. And a blind eye is turned at the agreement. And you just plough on.

Visitors to the school? Football matches? Trips? I can't be too specific but shame indeed. Green schools? Not in a million years.

Just out of interest myself. And very much off topic so if you don't wish to address it, that's fine. It relates to staff apathy and more particularly to staff working habits.

From your experience, how often would the average teacher take home work to finish off that is not be finished off in school time? Do you think it is really expected that staff put in time at home? That it would be nigh impossible to keep up if you didn't? Do you know teachers who absolutely stop at 4 or whenever and never take home work?

evolving_doors

icebergiceberg wrote: »

Yeah. Rules are explained to parents and student. In person. And an agreement is signed. 'I promise to abide by the rules of ... . The use of bad language is taken very seriously at ...'. etc etc.

It has no real importance however. If the students' background is such that their every second word is f this and f that, we really can't do much to end that. And a blind eye is turned at the agreement. And you just plough on.

Visitors to the school? Football matches? Trips? I can't be too specific but shame indeed. Green schools? Not in a million years.

Just out of interest myself. And very much off topic so if you don't wish to address it, that's fine. It relates to staff apathy and more particularly to staff working habits.

From your experience, how often would the average teacher take home work to finish off that is not be finished off in school time? Do you think it is really expected that staff put in time at home? That it would be nigh impossible to keep up if you didn't? Do you know teachers who absolutely stop at 4 or whenever and never take home work?

No!

Although I remember there was a woodwork teacher on here before who said he did nothing once he left the school, but nobody believed him.

I've just given up correcting tests 2hours ago, still another 30 to do tomorrow night! Now I wish I could write some choice swear words on their tests.

amacca

spurious wrote: »

Oh God, the times I just wanted the earth to open up. People would say I was making up stories if I told you some of the stories.
I actually denied being connected to them in any way on a trip to the UK. They became feral when they got together with their exchange counterparts who seemed to have had the same quality of parenting.

We went to a park once. Me, another teacher and only six 2nd year students. No possibility of a problem - you would think.

Oh no, when they hit the grass they became completely mad. One guy ripped off the top half of his clothing and rolled around on the grass, rubbing his chest and making animal noises. I left him and the other two boys who were up a tree to the male teacher and tried to gather the girls together who had chosen to fling stones at squirrels, oblivious (perhaps) that the stones, when coming down, were peppering a group of mothers with children in prams the far side of the trees. It was like the Luftwaffe in full flight.

They then saw the park playground and charged like a herd of elephants to jump all over the slides etc.. Meanwhile I'm there like a right twit with my clipboards and worksheets and multi-coloured pens, trying to get them to write down the names of the trees they can see.

My only bit of amusement was the 'oh bless you, working with the afflicted' looks I got from some passers by. I think some young people genuinely have no idea how they appear to civilians, certainly not those who shout 'This is shoite!!' at the top of their voices in a theatre, all the while rummaging in their trackies for their genitals.

Oh, how I do not miss it.

I actually roared laughing as I read this....I was picturing the scene with background music...maybe something from planet of the apes as the lad tore his top off or 2001 a space odyssey......the ride of the valkyrie as the pebbles peppered the innocent mothers while narrowly missing the squirrels.

I used to feel embarrassment (actually mortification) during situations like this but I don't anymore...for lots of reasons

1) Its not helping anyone, especially me, why should I feel bad or stressed because other people behave this way, its not actually my fault anyway at least thats what I believe.

2) I think its not even one percent my fault that things like this happen, its not my fault these kids are so badly bred they don't know what an acceptable way to behave in public is or they choose to behave like this, I didn't bring them up or leave a television and other feral kids to raise them.

3) Sadly its a reflection of society.

4) I also think the system gives me no real way to discipline them having slowly removed most vestiges of any real authority from most teachers over the years and perhaps this is a good thing because I often think we would be fighting the tide anyway and ultimately have very little success in changing anything.

killbillvol2

spurious wrote: »

Oh God, the times I just wanted the earth to open up. People would say I was making up stories if I told you some of the stories.
I actually denied being connected to them in any way on a trip to the UK. They became feral when they got together with their exchange counterparts who seemed to have had the same quality of parenting.

We went to a park once. Me, another teacher and only six 2nd year students. No possibility of a problem - you would think.

Oh no, when they hit the grass they became completely mad. One guy ripped off the top half of his clothing and rolled around on the grass, rubbing his chest and making animal noises. I left him and the other two boys who were up a tree to the male teacher and tried to gather the girls together who had chosen to fling stones at squirrels, oblivious (perhaps) that the stones, when coming down, were peppering a group of mothers with children in prams the far side of the trees. It was like the Luftwaffe in full flight.

They then saw the park playground and charged like a herd of elephants to jump all over the slides etc.. Meanwhile I'm there like a right twit with my clipboards and worksheets and multi-coloured pens, trying to get them to write down the names of the trees they can see.

My only bit of amusement was the 'oh bless you, working with the afflicted' looks I got from some passers by. I think some young people genuinely have no idea how they appear to civilians, certainly not those who shout 'This is shoite!!' at the top of their voices in a theatre, all the while rummaging in their trackies for their genitals.

Oh, how I do not miss it.

Ah, the memories!.

The National Stud where they stoned a prize stallion. The Japanese Gardens where they picked flowers for their ma. The National Museum where they slid down the bannisters (all of them, it was almost beautiful, the choreography). Various theatres where they waited for the lights to dim before producing enough crisp bags to drown out the performance. The Viking Splash tour where they reintroduced the idea of actual marauding lunatics hurling missiles at passers by. And the best ones that would sound so far fetched I wouldn't even mention them. And all the time rummaging for their genitals.