Am I ungrateful or actually underpaid?

LegacyUser

Hi Guys,

I was unemployed from 2008--2012.Like a lot of people at the time I was applying for hundreds of jobs with no luck.
A full time junior sales position became available in a wholesale company in my area which I decided I really wanted.I pushed hard ringing and emailing to get an interview.Got the interview,nailed it,got a contract for 39hrs at e10 per hour.I was delighted!

The job was a mixture of road sales and office work.Any extra hours I worked would be unpaid and go towards a bonus.No structure was agreed here but I was glad to have a job so didn't push.
Perks of the job were company van,company phone,Laptop,credit card for food when on the road and diesel.I could use the van in my own time also and even use company diesel once it was local.I also had the flexibility to go for medical appointments etc no questions asked and paid.

My week generally consisted of 8.30am-6.30pm 2/3 days in office.When I was doing sales calls it was near always a 12 hour day 2/3 days a week.
Then we would do sales weekends also which could be 12-14hrs but again these were unpaid and towards our bonus.Half way through the year I received a pay rise to e12.50 per hour.

At the end of year 2012 I received a 10k cash under the table bonus.I was delighted!
I also received a raise to e15 p hour.In 2013 I received a bonus of 15k.
In 2014 I was promoted to Manager which still incorporated my sales role with a wage of e20 per hour and a bonus of 20k.At the end of 2015 I also received 20k.

So as you can see I had a quick rise and overall very happy with the pay and my job.Very grateful to my boss but I work hard and have contributed to growing his business by over 200% and still growing in a declining market.

For 2016 I have gotten a nice new company car which I will pay bic on but that's it.
My salary will remain 40k with a 20k cash bonus plus prob around 5k of perks.
In June 2016 it will be 2 years since my last pay rise.

The boss has now decided he wants to change the structure of the sales team.
I will now be on the road 4 days per week doing upto 12hrs per day.I am in the office 1 day from 8.30-5.Again Sat sale days are unpaid of which I normally do around 300 hours per year.
I also go into work some Saturday's to do paperwork but have agreed to get that time back in holiday days which I'm happy with.
This means I will work as follows-
Road- Approx 45hrs per week
Office-Approx 8hrs per week(excluding Sats time owed agreement)
Sale Days- Average 6 hours per week.
Total Average 59hrs per week plus 6hrs owed time on a Sat.
Should I look at this as 26 hours overtime per week?
If yes I think I am underpaid as at time and a half overtime I should recieve an extra 38k a year which would put me on a gross of 78k a year.
Is the 20k cash bonus and 5k perks of own time diesel,food,good hotels,iPad etc worth at least the same as if they paid me 38k extra into my wages???
Should I ask for more or am I just being greedy and ungrateful?
I feel I do a good job,my boss and work colleagues also tell me this. My customers thankfully do too,well most of them.
We are adding a new product line next month in addition to our current product lines which has to be grown from zero.It will require a huge amount of work and learning and stress.Its target will be separated from my current targets.Should I look for a bonus for this as its extra work I top of existing workload.

I know this is a long question and I will probably get comments that I am ungrateful but to be honest I am happy with what I am being paid but some people close to me feel I am being taken advantage of.All opinions welcome.

Btw all this exclude hours i spend at home in the evenings doing emails and prepping at my own choice.My boss is well aware of this.

Thanks

Nody

MOD: OP only as a side note but as you're posting anonymously this means your posts are pre-moderated and require a moderator to approve them before they will become visible; hence if they don't appear simply wait until a moderator can approve them rather than posting multiple times.

athtrasna

Am I missing something? Your employer is giving you illegal cash bonuses, very substantial ones? 20k cash equates to almost 40k for a paye worker on your salary. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

Stheno

Ok, if/when you or your boss are audited by Revenue, you will have to pay tax, prsi, usc and interest and penalties on the 75k in cash bonuses you received

Senna

Stheno wrote: »

Ok, if/when you or your boss are audited by Revenue, you will have to pay tax, prsi, usc and interest and penalties on the 75k in cash bonuses you received

Depends on the company and nature of the sales, I used to get substantial yearly cash bonus and no audit would have ever shown a trace of it.

Wesser

What you are doing, getting cash under the table, and not paying tax on it, is illegal. The rest of us have to pay tax on every penny.

genericguy

You should definitely ask revenue their opinion OP.

Tell me how

Senna wrote:

Depends on the company and nature of the sales, I used to get substantial yearly cash bonus and no audit would have ever shown a trace of it.

I bet revenue would take that challenge.

emeldc

OP, the VAT inspections are fairly forensic these days. Your company would appear to be fiddling a fierce amount of cash and I bet you're not the only one in receipt of cash payments. An inspection would surely uncover this and the place could fall like a house of cards bringing you with it.
Seriously, I'd be looking for another job, one that pays you properly for what you're worth. If you lodged any of that cash to the bank, you have created a paper trail that you cannot explain. The interest and penalties alone would destroy you. If it was me, I would rather be paid less but at least I'd know what I'm getting is mine to keep. If I was getting paid like you I don't think I could sleep at night.

bmwguy

You are always going to get the high horse brigade here but no, you are not underpaid. The 20k bonus is worth 40k salary more or less. I would be worried about the scale of the cash in hand though. Unless your business sells a lot off the books for cash and has the cash to give you. It doesn't bother me but I don't know how wise that was of you to post on the internet!

gizmo555

Stheno wrote: »

Ok, if/when you or your boss are audited by Revenue, you will have to pay tax, prsi, usc and interest and penalties on the 75k in cash bonuses you received

That would be the employer's responsibility, not the employee's.

Stealthfins

What kind of company are you working for ?
Sounds a bit dodgy to be honest.

relax carry on

Tell me how wrote: »

I bet revenue would take that challenge.

Would love to. ;-)

Man11

Yes it does sound dodgy

relax carry on

gizmo555 wrote: »

That would be the employer's responsibility, not the employee's.

Not necessarily if it could be shown that the employee was complicit in the fraud.

davo10

Nice wage, nice perks op, the dogoodies are on their high horses but as sure as God made small apples none of them would turn down those bonuses if they were offered to them. I'd say you are on a winner as their are not many employers who pay bonuses, never mind cash in hand. Go on a nice holiday or do up the house.

gizmo555

The biggest risk I'd foresee in this situation is that the cash payments the OP's getting form a kind of "golden handcuffs".

The OP might end up staying in a position which might not be the best for his or her long term career progression, as well as putting up with the very long hours involved which are themselves in substantial breach of working time laws, because they've come to rely on the cash payments which a more compliant employer can't match.

Also, if you're looking for a mortgage or other loan, you obviously can't include these kind of cash payments in the income figures you show the lender.

LegacyUser

I'd stick with it OP. Seems like a good deal to me.

BreadnBuddha

davo10 wrote: »

Nice wage, nice perks op, the dogoodies are on their high horses but as sure as God made small apples none of them would turn down those bonuses if they were offered to them. I'd say you are on a winner as their are not many employers who pay bonuses, never mind cash in hand. Go on a nice holiday or do up the house.

Or pay your income tax liabilities. Where else does the OP expect the money comes from to provide the allowances and benefits he received during his 4 years of unemployment?

OP, you're not underpaid. You are, in fact, underpaying your taxes, completely illegally. You and your employer are committing a criminal offence. He is an idiot. He could have two salespeople employed for what you cost him.

Whyohwhy?

I'd hazard a guess the op is in the food service industry. I know a couple of lads in that line of work(ones a chef, the other is a van delivery/sales person to chippers and the like) both of the have their wages substantially topped up with cash payments, the van lad has two different books for sales(and every customer orders like this...) legit sales and cash sales. Cash sales are almost 50% of the business... The amount of undeclared cash is staggering. Taxman would never find it.

As for op, I'd say your about on what you should be, it's a good fckuin wage on the books, good perks and 20k cash?!? Any jobs going???

Arbiter of Good Taste

davo10 wrote: »

Nice wage, nice perks op, the dogoodies are on their high horses but as sure as God made small apples none of them would turn down those bonuses if they were offered to them. I'd say you are on a winner as their are not many employers who pay bonuses, never mind cash in hand. Go on a nice holiday or do up the house.

You are right, "their" are not many employers that pay bonus as cash in hand. That's because it is illegal.

davo10

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

You are right, "their" are not many employers that pay bonus as cash in hand. That's because it is illegal.

No, that's because not many pay bonuses, cash or cheque. Sorry, predictive texting on phone so "their" should read "there". Legality aside, would you say to your boss, "sorry, no, I refuse to take that €20k bonus" if the only way he as willing to pay was in cash? I'm sure if you are married there would be an interesting conversation at home if you did refuse it.

Mrs OBumble

gizmo555 wrote: »

That would be the employer's responsibility, not the employee's.

Absolutely not: taxpayers are responsible for declaring the income they receive, no matter what form it is paid in.

RainyDay

Whyohwhy? wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess the op is in the food service industry. I know a couple of lads in that line of work(ones a chef, the other is a van delivery/sales person to chippers and the like) both of the have their wages substantially topped up with cash payments, the van lad has two different books for sales(and every customer orders like this...) legit sales and cash sales. Cash sales are almost 50% of the business... The amount of undeclared cash is staggering. Taxman would never find it.

Unless of course, the taxman compares the level of employees/activities/raw materials used by this business against those of its competitors in the industry, and notices a significant discrepancy with the declared level of income/profit.

Or unless the taxman compares the declared salaries paid to employees against industry norms, and notices discrepancies.

Or unless a disgruntled employee decides to report his current or former employer to Revenue for revenge purposes.

It's just a matter of time really.

LegacyUser

I was expecting the pay your taxes replies.
Just to clarify one or two things.
I have never in my life claimed a social welfare payment,while I was unemployed I lived off my savings.I was previously self employed and during my unemployment attempted another start up which didn't work out.
I do pay taxs,I pay my property tax,an extortionate mortgage buying in 2008,my water tax etc etc. I didn't ask for my first bonus,it was given to me like that without notice or discussion.After that how could you refuse it.
I could not work the extra hours and refuse the bonus.This would lead to a decline in business which would lead to less jobs for others and less tax on company profits.The taxman is probably coming out better by me accepting this bonus.

Anyway in short I have got my answer.I am doing well even if it is ethically wrong.
I'll keep stashing it under the bed and maybe in a few years move abroad and bring it with me

Apologies for the double posting MOD.I was getting a service not available message each time I posted.

Rogueish

Unsure10101 wrote: »

Hi Guys,

....................

Perks of the job were company van,company phone,Laptop,credit card for food when on the road and diesel.I could use the van in my own time also and even use company diesel once it was local.I also had the flexibility to go for medical appointments etc no questions asked and paid.

So as you can see I had a quick rise and overall very happy with the pay and my job.Very grateful to my boss but I work hard and have contributed to growing his business by over 200% and still growing in a declining market.

For 2016 I have gotten a nice new company car which I will pay bic on but that's it.
My salary will remain 40k with a 20k cash bonus plus prob around 5k of perks.
In June 2016 it will be 2 years since my last pay rise.

The boss has now decided he wants to change the structure of the sales team.
I will now be on the road 4 days per week doing upto 12hrs per day.I am in the office 1 day from 8.30-5.Again Sat sale days are unpaid of which I normally do around 300 hours per year.
I also go into work some Saturday's to do paperwork but have agreed to get that time back in holiday days which I'm happy with.
This means I will work as follows-
Road- Approx 45hrs per week
Office-Approx 8hrs per week(excluding Sats time owed agreement)
Sale Days- Average 6 hours per week.
Total Average 59hrs per week plus 6hrs owed time on a Sat.
Should I look at this as 26 hours overtime per week?
If yes I think I am underpaid as at time and a half overtime I should recieve an extra 38k a year which would put me on a gross of 78k a year.
Is the 20k cash bonus and 5k perks of own time diesel,food,good hotels,iPad etc worth at least the same as if they paid me 38k extra into my wages???
Should I ask for more or am I just being greedy and ungrateful?
I feel I do a good job,my boss and work colleagues also tell me this. My customers thankfully do too,well most of them.
We are adding a new product line next month in addition to our current product lines which has to be grown from zero.It will require a huge amount of work and learning and stress.Its target will be separated from my current targets.Should I look for a bonus for this as its extra work I top of existing workload.

I know this is a long question and I will probably get comments that I am ungrateful but to be honest I am happy with what I am being paid but some people close to me feel I am being taken advantage of.All opinions welcome.

Btw all this exclude hours i spend at home in the evenings doing emails and prepping at my own choice.My boss is well aware of this.

Thanks

OK I'm going to come at his from a different direction. Tax and what you do and don't pay is your own risk and business.

You state that overall you are happy with what you are being paid and sound as if you like and are pretty decent at your job. There are people who would love to be in your position and I think that you are pretty aware of that.

The problem is that someone close to you feels that you are being taken advantage of. You started out in the job putting in the extra work and hours and while it has paid off professionally it has taken a toll on your work life balance. That 'someone close to you' probably places greater value on having your company and attention than on your successes at work. They therefore value your time at a higher rate than your employer hence their annoyance on your behalf and feeling that you are worth more.

There is a part of you that acknowledges that the hours you put in are in excess but the acknowledgement from your employer and your personal success pushes the dissatisfaction to the background. You are looking to the summer to the launch of the new product and realise that the input in hours in order to make it a success is going to add to your workload and eat further into your personal time. I have a few thoughts :rolleyes:

1) Is your realtionship and time spent with the person close to you worth more than the extra time needed in the job?
2) How would you manage your time in the future if spouse and children come into the equation (I'm making a great presumption that there are neither in the picture so forgive me if I am wrong) because when partner & children come into the equation quality time is priceless.
3) Is the extra work emails/phone calls outside of work hours completely necessary and is there any way of reducing it?
4) If the sales team is being restructured is it possible (if it is not done already) that you can be given regional areas to cover (or a smaller area) to reduce your road time and increase the time allocated to other areas of work such as the launch of the new product?
5) If the launch of the new product is associated with additional sales targets on top of your existing ones along with additional hours and stress is it possible to negotiate an additional bonus / wage increase based on performance. (Preferably wage increase as this will be looked at more favourably if you are looking for a mortgage in the near future)

Look I am not in sales but I am self employed and know the value of a good employee. I struggle with the work life balance and a 40 hour week would seem like a part-time job but it becomes a greater struggle when family enter the equation. My OH is similarly wired otherwise I would be single as there are not too many spouses out there who would put up with my hours. As far as a valuable employee is concerned I am willing to meet an employee half way in order to ensure that everyone is happy(ier). I have no doubt that your will be the same.

If you are still feeling short-changed. Have a look at similar sales roles see what they offer don't forget to factor in the tax you would pay and that (any) time in lieu is not the norm plus working in a job you like with co-workers that you get on with are not a given also whether starting all over again is worth it. If you feel that another company would appreciate you more then go for it. Apply and see what they can offer you.

Good Luck

Bikeboo

You should just get Enda to come clean and pay you on the books, we'll all find out in the tribunal anyway. ;-)

In the meantime, I'd say ride the wave for as long as you can, working those hours must mean you don't see much else of life. :-(

There's more people falsely claiming benefits than there are people evading taxes.

But I agree with one post there, those axes do go for services and benefits you relied on for a few years. Maybe something to think about.

December2012

1. Be careful. Your employer could threaten to report you to revenue stand time over any thing. Personally I would not like to be so vulnerable and exposed.

2. Don't limit yourself and believe you can't earn the same take home pay elsewhere with a better work / life balance. Career coaching may help.

3. Maybe the person who says you are being taken advantage of is saying it out of genuine concern, or malice. Only you know.

December2012

1. Be careful. Your employer could threaten to report you to revenue at any time over any thing. Personally I would not like to be so vulnerable and exposed.

2. Don't limit yourself and believe you can't earn the same take home pay elsewhere with a better work / life balance. Career coaching may help.

3. Maybe the person who says you are being taken advantage of is saying it out of genuine concern, or malice. Only you know.

Uncle Ben

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

You are right, "their" are not many employers that pay bonus as cash in hand. That's because it is illegal.

Plenty of employers paying cash in hand. Off the head I could give you the name of a painting, tiling or cleaning company. Followed by the name of a publican who I once worked for, where you can sit down and count your undeclared income by having a nice pint.

The op should keep his head down and his mouth shut if he doesn't want to get caught.

Del2005

December2012 wrote: »

1. Be careful. Your employer could threaten to report you to revenue stand time over any thing. Personally I would not like to be so vulnerable and exposed.

The employer has much more to loose by reporting the OP to revenue so that threat will never happen. The OP on the other hand could try for better pay with the threat, but working conditions will be seriously impacted.