These potential rule breaches occurred today. Clarity needed.

morrga

4 of us played a two man scramble today. The following two incidents occurred. Team A had a birdie putt and both missed. Player from team A approached the hole with flag in hand and holed the putt one handed. Legit or penalty?

Second incident. Player 1 on Team A had a birdie putt and missed. Player 2 went to finish out hole and put marker down and putted and missed only to realize he played his partners ball. Player 2 then went and holed putt. Legit or penalty?

Golfgraffix

morrga wrote: »

4 of us played a two man scramble today. The following two incidents occurred. Team A had a birdie putt and both missed. Player from team A approached the hole with flag in hand and holed the putt one handed. Legit or penalty?

Second incident. Player 1 on Team A had a birdie putt and missed. Player 2 went to finish out hole and put marker down and putted and missed only to realize he played his partners ball. Player 2 then went and holed putt. Legit or penalty?

No issues on point one, only a problem if he was leaning on it. Check out decision 17

Point two sounds like a penalty and then replacing the ball but I maybe misreading your post.

morrga

Thanks for your comments.

Sorry on point 2, after player 1 missed par putt with wrong ball, player 2 then placed his ball at the same point of where par putt was from and holed out.
Does player 1 putt have no implications cause it was missed but if putt was holed there would have been a penalty?

CMOTDibbler

morrga wrote: »

Thanks for your comments.

Sorry on point 2, after player 1 missed par putt with wrong ball, player 2 then placed his ball at the same point of where par putt was from and holed out.
Does player 1 putt have no implications cause it was missed but if putt was holed there would have been a penalty?

I think there's a penalty either way. But if I'm correct, the scoring for the hole is the best score of the two balls, so the one with the penalty will be the worst and dropped.

Generally playing the wrong ball incurs a penalty of two strokes and the ball has to be replaced.

Golfgraffix

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think there's a penalty either way. But if I'm correct, the scoring for the hole is the best score of the two balls, so the one with the penalty will be the worst and dropped.

Generally playing the wrong ball incurs a penalty of two strokes and the ball has to be replaced.

If it is a scramble its only one score to count.

mike12

No penalty as such you can't penalise player 2 as he did nothing wrong and he was the one who made the score that counted.

A New earth

Agreed, after Player 1 made a mess of it, player 2 had his go and got the par putt so that par counts as the team score.

Boskowski

But don't they get penalised as a team? It's not like they actually have an individual score on each hole like in better ball, they only have that team score on each hole between them so any infringement would have to go against that team score right? I really don't know at all, just thinking out loud.

Speak Now

Boskowski wrote: »

But don't they get penalised as a team? It's not like they actually have an individual score on each hole like in better ball, they only have that team score on each hole between them so any infringement would have to go against that team score right? I really don't know at all, just thinking out loud.

I think the key is he had marked. Because you get 2 goes, even though the first guy messed up the second guy was still due his turn.

Say if you left your putt on the edge and picked it up without marking. It wouldn't mean your scramble partner is out of the hole if he still had the same original putt to come.

No team penalty in either case imo. Well one half of the team is penalised in example 2 of course.

onlyfinewine

morrga wrote: »

4 of us played a two man scramble today. The following two incidents occurred. Team A had a birdie putt and both missed. Player from team A approached the hole with flag in hand and holed the putt one handed. Legit or penalty?

Second incident. Player 1 on Team A had a birdie putt and missed. Player 2 went to finish out hole and put marker down and putted and missed only to realize he played his partners ball. Player 2 then went and holed putt. Legit or penalty?

If I am reading your post correctly, player 2 incurred a 2 shot penalty under rule 35.1 for playing a wrong ball but his partner did not incur any penalty. However you did not indicate that player 1 finished out the hole. If he did not then the score containing the penalty strokes will stand and possibly disqualification as well for signing for a wrong score if not queried and corrected.

Boskowski

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

I think the key is he had marked. Because you get 2 goes, even though the first guy messed up the second guy was still due his turn.

Say if you left your putt on the edge and picked it up without marking. It wouldn't mean your scramble partner is out of the hole if he still had the same original putt to come.

No team penalty in either case imo. Well one half of the team is penalised in example 2 of course.

So in a scramble I can carry out any rule breach and the team score is unaffected as long as one of my partners is still in it?

Golfgraffix

I must be not reading it right but how can you play a wrong ball in a scramble? Granted I have not played in many but do you not mark the chosen ball with a tee or coin and then each plays from there?

Are you saying that player A put his ball down and then player B played it?

Boskowski

I think what he's saying is that a player holed out with his partners ball not his own.

Golfgraffix

Can't find any official rules on scramble, is it even covered by the rules ?

Was just reading the Californian golf associations rules on a scramble and it seems that rule 15.3 for a wrong ball does not apply. It clearly says "a partners ball is not a wrong ball"

But who knows, it always struck me as an anything goes fun type of game. Guess that's why I never play it.

J

CMOTDibbler

Boskowski wrote: »

I think what he's saying is that a player holed out with his partners ball not his own.

It's hard to know because he seems to be leaving something out.

In a scramble, each player putts from the best position on the green. The other player's ball has to be within three inches of the chosen ball.

So reading the OPs description, (I'm assuming) Player 1's ball is the best and he misses his putt for a birdie. Now it doesn't seem to be in the OP, but I'm assuming that player 2 should have had a putt from the same spot as Player 1? This isn't stated.

What I think is being said is that Player 2 is to take his putt from where Player 1's birdie attempt ended up. He put down his marker and then struck Player 1's ball, missing the hole?

He then realised his mistake, placed his own ball and holed it.

What seems to be missing for me is what happened Player 2's first putt? And what happened with Player 1's second putt?

If Player 2 is penalised two strokes for hitting the wrong ball, then PLayer 1 still has a par putt to make and that should be the score for the hole if he holes it.

Very confusing

@Golfgraffix: Scramble isn't covered under the rules of golf and you're probably right in that the spirit of the game is you're hitting all the shots from the same spot, so which ball shouldn't really matter. It's a fun game devised to get a lot of people around the course quickly.

Speak Now

Boskowski wrote: »

So in a scramble I can carry out any rule breach and the team score is unaffected as long as one of my partners is still in it?

No that's not what I said.

Russman

Is this not just a fairly straightforward case of player 1 doing something (in this case playing a wrong ball) that means his finishing out of the hole isn't the stroke that counts, and the next player finishes out correctly, so that's the stroke that counts ? Seems pretty clear unless I'm misreading it.

onlyfinewine

A wrong ball is any ball other than the players ball in play, provisional ball or second ball under rule 20-7c in stroke play per the definitions. As a scramble is not a recognised format the rules do not legislate for it specifically but as was posted by Golfgraffix it is generally a fun format with non standardised rules to help people of different standards enjoy their day's golfing.

onlyfinewine

Originally Posted by Boskowski

So in a scramble I can carry out any rule breach and the team score is unaffected as long as one of my partners is still in it?

You can only breach specific rules which do not involve disqualification.

morrga

onlyfinewine wrote: »

If I am reading your post correctly, player 2 incurred a 2 shot penalty under rule 35.1 for playing a wrong ball but his partner did not incur any penalty. However you did not indicate that player 1 finished out the hole. If he did not then the score containing the penalty strokes will stand and possibly disqualification as well for signing for a wrong score if not queried and corrected.

Sorry for the confusion, I can see how my post wasnt entirely clear. In summary:

Birdie putt. Player 1 putts and misses. Player 2 putts and misses.
Par putt. Player 1 marks ball of player 2 that just missed and goes to tap in the par putt only to miss. After the miss, player 1 realises that he had played player 2's ball. Ball is picked up and handed back to player 2 who places the ball beside the marker and holes out for par.

Golfgraffix

morrga wrote: »

Sorry for the confusion, I can see how my post wasnt entirely clear. In summary:

Birdie putt. Player 1 putts and misses. Player 2 putts and misses.
Par putt. Player 1 marks ball of player 2 that just missed and goes to tap in the par putt only to miss. After the miss, player 1 realises that he had played player 2's ball. Ball is picked up and handed back to player 2 who places the ball beside the marker and holes out for par.

From the limited info i can find on a scramble format it seems that no penalty applies as there is no definiation for wrong ball in the format.

J

onlyfinewine

Because a scramble falls into the "grey area" which is not legislated for by the R&A your guess is as good as mine as to the exact rules that might apply for any particular game in relation to dropping or placing, handicap allowance or order of play, number of drives to be counted per player etc,. As you said it's a fun format so generally as long as the rules are clear then great off we go.
As far as the wrong ball definition goes my viewpoint would go with the "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......... and you are not playing match play then you must be playing stroke play? Then rule 31-5 would apply as there are no specific rules for scrambles.