Brexit Referendum Superthread

Bit cynical

Sand wrote: »

This is a very simple thing that Brexiteers cant seem to acknowledge. The EU has objectives that go beyond just the economic.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Not the point that the EU has objectives that go beyond the purely economic but that brexiteers don't acknowledge it. Brexit itself is an acknowlegement of it. They agree that this political agenda exists and therefore seek to remove themselves from it.

The UK might wish for the EU to be a purely economic association, but it is not. The deal the UK gets will be worse than their current deal - it must be measurably worse and must be broadly recognised by everyone as being worse because the EU must demonstrate that membership (which has costs) is clearly superior to external association. That impression is far more important to the EU to some bitterness on the part of Brexiteers crying over the smoking ruins of their romantic fantasy.

I fully understand your point here. The EU needs to demonstrate that there are benefits to being in the EU and disadvantages to leaving it.

Where I disagree is the idea that the best way of demonstrating the benefits of membership is the threat of punishment of those who leave. Once it gets to this stage, the EU have already failed. Punishment of those who leave is really only the demonstration of that failure.

It is like an imaginary Communist country explaining that one of the benefits of living in the country is not being imprisoned for trying to leave.

Spanish Eyes

What those bullying the UK into invoking Article 50 forget, is that there is absolutely NO timeframe outlined in that article at all for a formal notification of an exit.

So there.

UK can dawdle all it likes, and nothing can be done.

Its dead Jim

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What those bullying the UK into invoking Article 50 forget, is that there is absolutely NO timeframe outlined in that article at all for a formal notification of an exit.

So there.

UK can dawdle all it likes, and nothing can be done.

A democratic vote isn't bullying.

K-9

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What those bullying the UK into invoking Article 50 forget, is that there is absolutely NO timeframe outlined in that article at all for a formal notification of an exit.

So there.

UK can dawdle all it likes, and nothing can be done.

Indeed, the UK can't moan if it gets a less favourable deal in return the longer it delays. But as said previously, a new PM doesn't have that luxury of delaying because of Farage et al!

Sand

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What those bullying the UK into invoking Article 50 forget, is that there is absolutely NO timeframe outlined in that article at all for a formal notification of an exit.

So there.

UK can dawdle all it likes, and nothing can be done.

Yep, the UK can sit tight and wait while investment dries up and people dump the pound, UKIP and the Leave campaign go into revolt, and the EU leaks worse and worse scare deals to undermine the UK.

So they cant.

The UK has next to no cards to play. If Cameron thought there was a play, he would make it. There isnt. He knows this is a disaster. BoJo knows this is a disaster. Gove knows this is a disaster. Farage might be too dumb to realise this is a disaster.

K-9

Bit cynical wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with that. Not the point that the EU has objectives that go beyond the purely economic but that brexiteers don't acknowledge it. Brexit itself is an acknowlegement of it. They agree that this political agenda exists and therefore seek to remove themselves from it.I fully understand your point here. The EU needs to demonstrate that there are benefits to being in the EU and disadvantages to leaving it.

Where I disagree is the idea that the best way of demonstrating the benefits of membership is the threat of punishment of those who leave. Once it gets to this stage, the EU have already failed. Punishment of those who leave is really only the demonstration of that failure.

It is like an imaginary Communist country explaining that one of the benefits of living in the country is not being imprisoned for trying to leave.

It's simple really, those outside the club don't get as good a deal as those inside it. It isn't Communism or punishment or anything nearly as melodramatic as that, it's making sure there's a reason for the club to actually exist!

long range shooter

I dont think Great Britain are the first and last to leave EU.

swampgas

Bit cynical wrote: »

Where I disagree is the idea that the best way of demonstrating the benefits of membership is the threat of punishment of those who leave. Once it gets to this stage, the EU have already failed. Punishment of those who leave is really only the demonstration of that failure.

This just doesn't make sense. Since when did not getting special treatment become punishment?

The UK want a better deal than everyone else. Along with Boris they want to have their cake and eat it too. Is there some weird subconscious sense of imperial entitlement going on? You know, other countries are there to be stripped of their resources, for the benefit of mother England?

I just don't get it. Don't like EU membership? Don't think the benefits are worth the price? Fine, leave. But expecting the EU to re-mould itself to your advantage and to the detriment of the fully paid-up members is arrogant in the extreme.

.

Nody

whatever_ wrote: »

All of this is good (provided it doesn't crash), and will help create a better balance in the UK economy, because manufacturing exports and jobs will rise.

Seeing how investments are being cancelled and delayed (see for example Virgin's plans which would have created 3000 jobs now being scrapped announced yesterday and the investments falling for the last six months) I'd not really count on more jobs from this; I'd say be happy if the net result is no loss of jobs.

mickoneill31

Nody wrote: »

Seeing how investments are being cancelled and delayed (see for example Virgin's plans which would have created 3000 jobs now being scrapped announced yesterday and the investments falling for the last six months) I'd not really count on more jobs from this; I'd say be happy if the net result is no loss of jobs.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/vodafone-considers-relocating-from-uk-in-light-of-brexit-1.2703208

The Vodafone CEO was over in Ireland a couple of weeks ago discussing this. At the time I thought this was a PR exercise as I thought the UK would never vote for a Brexit. I don't think Ireland would get the bulk of the jobs but they'd definitely get some.

Calina

I see parts of the leave campaign also want Mark Carney of the Bank of England to resign too.

I'm really rather surprised about this. Is the objective anarchy?

Bob24

Enzokk wrote: »

It would be a UKIP wet dream if a new PM doesn't invoke article 50 or they call a general election and both the Tories and Labour run on a platform not to leave the EU. While there are voters who would vote differently in a new referendum, the majority want to leave the EU and it could be that if the main parties aren't careful you could end up with UKIP picking up a lot of MPs.

Yes exactly ... 52% voted for a major change in their country. If only one party is willing to include that change in its platform, there will obviously be an exodus of voters to that party.

Harika

Richard Branson states it above, for now the main problem is the uncertainty, if Britain would be really out now or ignoring the vote, both would give stability. But as investor now, you have no idea what is gonna happen when.
Any trade contract with the UK, that lasts longer than two years, is now a time bomb, you don't want to have. So you will see fewer companies investing, what will cost jobs.
So it is in their own interests now to act quickly, I think this is a reasonable request also from the EU to minimize the impact and not bullying.

CMOTDibbler

Calina wrote: »

I see parts of the leave campaign also want Mark Carney of the Bank of England to resign too.

I'm really rather surprised about this. Is the objective anarchy?

Mark Carney wasn't 'on message'. :rolleyes:

He had the temerity to suggest that leaving the EU mightn't be such a good idea. Having left, he's probably the only person who's got a plan to deal with the fallout.

Bit cynical

swampgas wrote: »

This just doesn't make sense. Since when did not getting special treatment become punishment?

The UK want a better deal than everyone else. Along with Boris they want to have their cake and eat it too. Is there some weird subconscious sense of imperial entitlement going on? You know, other countries are there to be stripped of their resources, for the benefit of mother England?

I just don't get it. Don't like EU membership? Don't think the benefits are worth the price? Fine, leave. But expecting the EU to re-mould itself to your advantage and to the detriment of the fully paid-up members is arrogant in the extreme.

Except that that was not what was being suggested in the post I was responding to.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

I would be very surprised if the IDA weren't working on a list of prospects since the Brexit Referendum was announced as well.

I too would be surprised, although I imagine the IDA are going to be far far far more discreet.

Poisoning the Irish Sea in order to get 5k jobs relocated would be a bad deal for Ireland!

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

It would be a UKIP wet dream if a new PM doesn't invoke article 50 or they call a general election and both the Tories and Labour run on a platform not to leave the EU. While there are voters who would vote differently in a new referendum, the majority want to leave the EU and it could be that if the main parties aren't careful you could end up with UKIP picking up a lot of MPs.

Agreed. The referendum has sent the nation fish tailing around and I don't see any way to bring it under control.

They either leave the EU and attempt to bring themselves back towards the realms of a 'somewhat' normalised Government.

or they don't leave the EU, and see what happens when that protest vote (from people who already feel ignored and anti-establishment) gets obviously ignored.

A UK within the EU with a hung parliament with a sizeable number of UKIP seats could conceivably be an even worse deal!

Polo_Mint

Deleted User wrote: »

I too would be surprised, although I imagine the IDA are going to be far far far more discreet.

Poisoning the Irish Sea in order to get 5k jobs relocated would be a bad deal for Ireland!

Im sure that the Multinationals and UK companies were contacting the IDA when the Referendum was announced in the first place.

Companies worth their salt would have had contingency plans in place and would have worked them out with the IDA

Actually, as an EU Migrant working in the UK I had a targeted Facebook Advertisement on Friday morning!

BREXIT? Come to Austria.
Come to Vienna, the most liveable city of the world.
Build world-class big-data-software and infrastructure with us
Our health system, public and social security and infrastructure work already.
And we DO look forward to meeting you!
Big Data Engineers, DevOps, SysAdmins, Fullstack.......

Some people were ready very early, and not worried about being discreet.

Polo_Mint

I didnt know Nigel Farage's wife was German

HE has a weird view on immigrants so.

Enzokk

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, as an EU Migrant working in the UK I had a targeted Facebook Advertisement on Friday morning!



Some people were ready very early, and not worried about being discreet.

Amazing that the only country that wasn't ready for the result of vote was the UK and in particular the Leave campaign. It doesn't leave you with a lot of confidence for the future negotiations for the UK. Seeing as they haven't done any negotiations in many years as all negotiations were done by the EU on behalf of all their members makes the future an interesting times ahead.

gandalf

Deleted User wrote: »

I too would be surprised, although I imagine the IDA are going to be far far far more discreet.

Poisoning the Irish Sea in order to get 5k jobs relocated would be a bad deal for Ireland!

Well the UK have self administered the poison so if the jobs are going from the UK we should be doing everything in our power to secure them for Ireland. I see Vodafone are cited as considering their options now for their HQ which is based in London. They are also now reporting their revenues in Euros going forward.

Hey UK it ain't personal, it's business

ancapailldorcha

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I didnt know Nigel Farage's wife was German

HE has a weird view on immigrants so.

His first wife was Irish.

Enzokk

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I didnt know Nigel Farage's wife was German

HE has a weird view on immigrants so.

He also employs her as his secretary. He has no problem having a EU immigrant working for him. So he doesn't believe someone from the UK can work for him, but he doesn't want anyone else to have access to that same market.

Either that or much more sinister, he has his wife "work" for him for them to claim a salary for her from the tax payer. That is the person being the face of the UK at the moment.

Link here

wes

gandalf wrote: »

Well the UK have self administered the poison so if the jobs are going from the UK we should be doing everything in our power to secure them for Ireland. I see Vodafone are cited as considering their options now for their HQ which is based in London. They are also now reporting their revenues in Euros going forward.

Hey UK it ain't personal, it's business

This is a valid point here, the Irish economy is going to be hurt by Brexit, and its not like the English and Welsh electorate were all that bothered about us, and as such I see no reason to extend them the kindness they didn't extend to us.

Polo_Mint

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

His first wife was Irish.

At the launch of Ukip's poster campaign, Mr Farage was asked whether his wife was “taking someone’s else’s job” by BBC political editor Nick Robinson.

“You’ve warned about Europeans taking British jobs. Your wife is German, she’s your secretary. She’s paid for by the British tax payer. Is your wife taking someone else’s job, then?” asks Mr Robinson in the video.

“No because I don’t think anybody else would want to be in my house, at midnight, going through emails,” replies Mr Farage.

“You try to turn everything into a joke,” Mr Robinson says, adding: “You have a campaign that says Europeans are taking British jobs. You employ a German woman to work in your office. She happens to be your wife. How do you justify it?”

“It’s a very different situation to a mass of hundreds of thousands of people coming in and flooding the lower ends of the labour market. There bears no comparison,” adds Mr Farage.

Undeterred, Mr Robinson then asks why a British person could not complete the same job. “No British person could work for you as your secretary?

“So that’s it? It’s clear. Ukip do not believe that any British person is capable of being the secretary of their leader?” he asks.

“I said I need somebody to help me work midnight, one o’clock, two o’clock in the morning, unsociable hours. And that happens to be the person I’ve lived with for seven years," says Mr Farage.

The footage comes a day after Mr Farage also defended Ukip’s poster campaign, after it was accused of being “racist.”

One billboard depicts a man dressed as a builder begging for spare change next to the words: “EU policy at work. British workers are hit hard by unlimited cheap labour.”

Independent UK 2015

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ukip-leader-nigel-farage-defends-employing-german-wife-at-launch-of-anti-immigration-poster-campaign-9275453.html

Didnt they also use an Irish guy to play the builder begging for change?

wes

Calina wrote: »

I see parts of the leave campaign also want Mark Carney of the Bank of England to resign too.

I'm really rather surprised about this. Is the objective anarchy?

Well, they don't like experts........

ancapailldorcha

Not sure why Carney's head is up for being lopped off. He seems to have prepared for this outcome as best as someone in his position could. Surely you want less uncertainty, not more unless it's to do with his pre-referendum comments.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Not sure why Carney's head is up for being lopped off. He seems to have prepared for this outcome as best as someone in his position could. Surely you want less uncertainty, not more unless it's to do with his pre-referendum comments.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed003a7a-3d47-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html

Speaking on BBC radio on Tuesday, Tim Martin, chairman of the Wetherspoon pub chain, repeatedly called Mr Carney “stupid” and suggested the BoE would be better run if he was replaced by Roy Hodgson, the manager of the England football team which failed at the Euro 2016 championships.

The pinch of salt required here is vast.

micosoft

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.snopes.com/mad-cow-versus-brexit/



(just before anyone thinks that's you're suggesting it's valid!)

Lol - the image I linked is from Snopes - I thought it would be obvious but given the acceptance of lies by the Brexiters that is part of the amusement that they will accept this "fact" without question and wonder if they have BSE....