Brexit Referendum Superthread

Pro Hoc Vice

[Deleted User] wrote: »

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed003a7a-3d47-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html


The pinch of salt required here is vast.

Just like his food.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed003a7a-3d47-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html


The pinch of salt required here is vast.

He's an immigrant, you can't have foreigners in charge of sensitive positions like that! I'm joking btw.

That Martin guy seems like the leave sides Michael O'Leary, does more for his own image than the campaigns they are helping out.

djpbarry

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

My point is a common-sense one. As soon as it is made clear to the Scots that they will be abandoned like a dirty needle at a Glasgow bus-shelter, without David or Angela to pay for rent & lighting, they'll make the exact same decision they made in 2013.

Many may disagree, but most will look back at the teat of Mother England, before setting their mouths to 'suckle'.

Like so many in the anti-Independence camp, you are grossly overstating the scale of Scotland’s deficit.

djpbarry

whatever_ wrote: »

The "experts" don't know what will happen. That is why markets have moved - the market makers don't like uncertainty.
…
However, ask them the big questions and they haven't a clue.

I’m pretty sure most economists said that the uncertainty caused by Brexit would have negative consequences, did they not?

whatever_ wrote: »

Many of us predicted that the pound would fall, and that is good for the UK economy, which has suffered from too strong a currency for a long time.

Has it? Seems like the British economy was doing reasonably well, relative to the rest of Europe, prior to the Brexit vote?

whatever_ wrote: »

Some City jobs will move to other countries (hopefully here) and the London Property Markets (Commercial and Residential) will likely fall. This will probably ripple out around the UK. All of this is good (provided it doesn't crash), and will help create a better balance in the UK economy, because manufacturing exports and jobs will rise.

How exactly? This is all sounding tremendously vague, which is par for the course for the Leave campaign, I suppose:

1. Leave the EU
2. ?
3. Profit

djpbarry

smjm wrote: »

Within the EU it might not have been worth their while manufacturing certain goods. Easier to import without tariffs. If EU tariffs change that position, and they start manufacturing their own goods for themselves, then they might look to export them as well.

If it only becomes economical to manufacture these goods in the event that tariffs are imposed, doesn’t that mean that it is more expensive to manufacture them in the UK than it is in the EU? So how can the UK then compete with those cheaper EU products on the global market?

djpbarry

Deedsie wrote: »

I haven't commented much on this but 43 years in the EU has done a lot for Anglo Irish relations. It's a shame to see them go. London is a fantastic city I always enjoy visiting, thinking of flying over and it feels different now.

London is overwhelmingly pro-EU – we’ll see how things go with Scotland and then maybe we’ll launch our own independence movement.

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ed003a7a-3d47-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html

The pinch of salt required here is vast.

To be fair, Hodgson seems to have a pretty clear plan on leaving Europe.

djpbarry

Bit cynical wrote: »

I do understand that some EU states have problems with their electorates and that they need to be seen to be tough with the UK people for having the temerity to want to leave.

I think it’s more of a case of the UK, over the course of several decades, being incapable of making up its mind what it wants to do and the EU running out of patience.

Nody

There can be no “a la carte” access to the single market, the European Council president Donald Tusk has said, as Europe’s leaders agreed that Britain must accept freedom of movement if it wants access.

And there goes the Luxembourg case; article is here but it only reiterates the same point.

ancapailldorcha

djpbarry wrote: »

London is overwhelmingly pro-EU – we’ll see how things go with Scotland and then maybe we’ll launch our own independence movement.

Is there a reason for this? Birmingham which is quite diverse and the UK's second city voted, albeit narrowly, for leave.

Bob24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is there a reason for this? Birmingham which is quite diverse and the UK's second city voted, albeit narrowly, for leave.

My 2 cents: it is a referendum for winners v.s. losers of globalisation. London is a clear winner, Birmingham not so much.

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

My 2 cents: it is a referendum for winners v.s. losers of globalisation. London is a clear winner, Birmingham not so much.

Scotland voted for remaining though. I wouldn't call them winners.

Bob24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Scotland voted for remaining though. I wouldn't call them winners.

Scotland (like Catalonia in Spain) is winning in a different way: if there is a European superstructure which is gradually eroding the power of national governments, regions which have a strong local identity tend to gain more and more leverage to manage their own affairs. If London becomes almighty again across the UK and doesn't have to answer to EU institutions any-more, the Scots would be right to think their autonomy within the UK could be reduced (and certainly couldn't increase).

(From an economic point of view to be honest I am not knowledgeable enough to make a call, but aren't large Scottish cities doing better than Birmingham on average?)

Polo_Mint

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I didnt know Nigel Farage's wife was German
HE has a weird view on immigrants so.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

His first wife was Irish.

Just because you're an immigrant, or married to an immigrant, does not mean you have to be in favour of open borders, or uncontrolled EU immigration.

As someone who has paid taxes in three European countries, I obviously favour employee mobility, within reason. And although I suspect Farage is a racist, I can sympathise with his argument on why migration needs to be better-controlled, whether or not I agree with it.

Because, immigration does lead to wage restraint, or even wage cuts. It can aggravate an unemployment problem.

Almost nobody is anti-immigrant per se, least of all we who have migrated or whose spouses are migrants. WE ALL agree, or most of us, that migration must be controlled. The question is one of magnitude.

Nobody is a hypocrite simply because they have migrated and believe that migration should be regulated.

Farage is almost certainly a racist, and he should be denigrated for that reason. But not because he is in favour of controlling migration, whilst marrying an EU citizen. That is an idiot's argument.

djpbarry wrote: »

Like so many in the anti-Independence camp, you are grossly overstating the scale of Scotland’s deficit.

According to the last referendum, you are "grossly overstating" the quantity of Scots willing to leave both the UK and the EU.

Statistics are on my side of the argument. I'm not anti-Scottish-independence, but anti-illogical-choices. Scotland is a statelet built on welfare transfers. It would be mad to go alone.

Polo_Mint

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nobody is a hypocrite simply because they have migrated and believe that migration should be regulated.
That is an idiot's argument.

Hold on a sec.....


Farage said this to Channel 4

"What I said was that I do believe there should be a presumption for British employers in favour of them employing British people as opposed to somebody from Poland. That is exactly what I said," he added.

Yet HE hires his GERMAN wife to be his secretary, PAID by the BRITISH TAX PAYER

If you cant understand this then you dont know what a hypocrite is.

A Dub in Glasgo

Farage is just another in the long line of spoofers whose stance is 'Do as I say, not as I do'

Polo_Mint

Polo_Mint wrote: »

Yet HE hires his GERMAN wife to be his secretary, PAID by the BRITISH TAX PAYER

If you cant understand this then you dont know what a hypocrite is.

You obviously don't know what a presumption is.

A presumption is, by its nature, rebuttable. It isn't a rule, to be consistently observed.

Switzerland voted for very similar presumptive access to the labour market for Swiss citizens. Work permit rules in Ireland also have hierarchies of presumptive preferences.

As it happens, I think Farage is a racist.

But not for this reason. Presumptive access to labour among certain nationalities is already a feature of the labour market in EU/EEA Member States.

What Farage said there wasn't racist. It was a similar principle to that which already exists.

pablomakaveli

I think Farage should be added to the group negotiating the UKs exit. He shouldnt be allowed to get off lightly. I really want to see him go down like Boris and Gove inevitably will.

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

(From an economic point of view to be honest I am not knowledgeable enough to make a call, but aren't large Scottish cities doing better than Birmingham on average?)

I've no idea. Edinburgh, quite possibly. Glasgow, unlikely.

wes

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I think Farage should be added to the group negotiating the UKs exit. He shouldnt be allowed to get off lightly. I really want to see him go down like Boris and Gove inevitably will.

Oh that would give me a good laugh. He would single handedly torpedo the negotiations, and destroy relations with the EU for a generation.

Lemming

wes wrote: »

Oh that would give me a good laugh. He would single handedly torpedo the negotiations, and destroy relations with the EU for a generation.

To be honest, I don't think the other EU members/MEPs/Commissioners/etc. view the UK through the filter of Farage's brain-farts. On the day that he stood up and gloated and was roundly booed for his crass, undignified carry-on, Jon Hill received an ovation as he stood down that - at least from what I could see in the video clip - appeared to be genuine appreciation for his work.

Farage would most certainly do no favours for a negotiation team and would torpedo any settlement but any relations to be destroyed would come from Britain blaming the EU for its own astounding act of self-harm.

djpbarry

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is there a reason for this? Birmingham which is quite diverse and the UK's second city voted, albeit narrowly, for leave.

I’m guessing Birmingham’s significant population from Commonwealth states might have bought into the lie about non-EU immigrants being out-competed by EU immigrants.

It’s not just London by the way – many other city and town centres voted remain: Newcastle, Leeds, York, Manchester, Liverpool, Norwich, Bristol, Brighton, Oxford, Cambridge and Leicester. They’re all prominent university towns is a common denominator, I guess?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've no idea. Edinburgh, quite possibly. Glasgow, unlikely.

Glasgow is Scotland’s capital and economic centre in all but name – Edinburgh is little more than a tourist attraction.

LiamoSail

I firmly believe Farage should be part of the British delegation negotiating their exit.

Farage is representative of a huge number of English and Welsh citizens, he represents their views and they've backed him in the referendum. He led the momentum towards Brexit, campaigned tirelessly and is a big part and largely responisble for the situation the UK now find themselves in.

Farage is brash, arrogant, ignorant and xenophobic, but this is well known. This is what England and Wales have supported, these are views that the majority that voted feel are representative of theirs, and as such I firmly believe that Farage represents the England and Wales in the way they themselves want to be represented.

djpbarry

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nobody is a hypocrite simply because they have migrated and believe that migration should be regulated.

That depends on the degree of desired regulation. Taking an extreme example, an immigrant who wishes to see closed borders is something of a hypocrite, are they not? They can benefit from migrating, but nobody else can?

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Statistics are on my side of the argument.

They’re really not. Scotland receives more in government spending than the UK average, but it also contributes more in tax revenue.

This idea that Scotland is an economic black hole has no basis in reality.

LiamoSail

djpbarry wrote: »

It’s not just London by the way – many other city and town centres voted remain: Newcastle, Leeds, York, Manchester, Liverpool, Norwich, Bristol, Brighton, Oxford, Cambridge and Leicester. They’re all prominent university towns is a common denominator, I guess?
.

The educated, along with the young and those living in city's that are net contributors to the UK were for the majority, in favour of remaining

djpbarry

LiamoSail wrote: »

Farage is brash, arrogant, ignorant and xenophobic, but this is well known. This is what England and Wales have supported, these are views that the majority that voted feel are representative of theirs, and as such I firmly believe that Farage represents the England and Wales in the way they themselves want to be represented.

I think that's a little unfair. I don't doubt that a large number of Leave voters are UKIP sympathisers, but a I think a larger number just bought into the "Britain is Great" nonsense that the likes of Boris was spouting.

The result was more about teary-eyed, nostalgic patriotism than xenophobia, although the latter was undoubtedly a factor.

LiamoSail

djpbarry wrote: »

I think that's a little unfair. I don't doubt that a large number of Leave voters are UKIP sympathisers, but a I think a larger number just bought into the "Britain is Great" nonsense that the likes of Boris was spouting.

The result was more about teary-eyed, nostalgic patriotism than xenophobia, although the latter was undoubtedly a factor.

Irrespective of why they voted leave, and I'd be inclined to believe xenophobia played a bigger part than you credit, Farage was a part of it.

While he doesn't represent all Leave voters, he probably does represent a majority of them. Irrespective of how many though, it's certainly a sizeable number and they should be represented. Not solely by Farage, but certainly with Farage as part of the delegation

Bob24

LiamoSail wrote: »

I firmly believe Farage should be part of the British delegation negotiating their exit.

Farage is representative of a huge number of English and Welsh citizens, he represents their views and they've backed him in the referendum. He led the momentum towards Brexit, campaigned tirelessly and is a big part and largely responisble for the situation the UK now find themselves in.

Farage is brash, arrogant, ignorant and xenophobic, but this is well known. This is what England and Wales have supported, these are views that the majority that voted feel are representative of theirs, and as such I firmly believe that Farage represents the England and Wales in the way they themselves want to be represented.

I certainly agree he is representative of a good part of the leave voters, but I think whether he should be part of the negociation process is a tough question. On one hand, yes he should because he represents these people, but on the other hand having rivalries and possibly greatly different opionions within the negotiation team might not serve the UK (in a negotiation - especially as complex as this one - if you are not even clear on what you want, you are at a great disadvantage).

Cameron really is at fault here: he was completely irresponsable to hold referendum which could possibly trigger a massive change he was not committed to handle himself.

Polo_Mint

Just looking at some stats

The UK tax recipts for 2015 was 500billion

After rebates they paid the EU 12.5 billion

So the UK will be able to fix all Financial issues with this 2.5% saving

You have to wonder where the 97.5% of tax money is going

Conas

djpbarry wrote: »

London is overwhelmingly pro-EU – we’ll see how things go with Scotland and then maybe we’ll launch our own independence movement.

Scotland had their chance to be leave the UK in 2014, but were too chicken to do so.

Now tough talking Nicola Sturgeon hasn't got the result she wanted, and is intent on sabotaging the result. Scotland as a nation really needs a master, as they will 'always' be too afraid to be independent. Why Scotland and Ukraine want to relinquish so much to Brussels is truly mind-boggling.

I never went to the polls and voted for the likes of Donald Tusk or Jean Claude Junker, and neither did any other Irish citizen or UK citizen for that matter.