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Brexit Referendum Superthread
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First I was considering opening an extra thread on that subject, but I think that the story fits this one, as the Tory Party is about to be more UKIP than the UKIP herself.
Some new develpments are raising concerns about the real attitude of the present UK govt towards non-British nationals.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37561035
What´s the purpose behind that if not to oust companies who have an international workforce and who also, therefore, operate on an international Basis. It smells like a witch hunt to me and the Home Sectretary is putting nationality before qualifications, going out from the view that every British worker is by nature better qualified than any other from outside of the UK. Neglecting that qualification standards vary and that one - depending on the branch of Business he or she is in - has to keep oneself up to date by learning and improving skills via training to meet the qualification standards that are not static but move with the times and new developments.Amber Rudd says 'don't call me a racist' amid foreign workers row
Home Secretary Amber Rudd has defended plans to make firms do more to employ British people, saying "don't call me a racist" for talking about immigration.
Under her proposals, firms could be forced to disclose what percentage of their workforce is non-British as a way to encourage them to hire more locals.
Ms Rudd said she wanted to "flush out" companies abusing existing rules and "nudge them into better behaviour".
But one business group said a global workforce was not a "badge of shame".
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So, the companies will have to pay for that to please the govt in taking on British citizens in the first place and when they don´t meet the qualification standards required for the job on offer, the company is obliged to train them. Well, in such cases it would be only fair that the state pays for that in the first place.Firms, she said, were "getting away" with not training enough British workers and the existing resident labour test - which require firms to advertise vacancies in the UK for 28 days before looking outside the EU - should be toughened up.
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Under proposals which are to be subject to consultation, companies recruiting staff from outside the EU will have to demonstrate what they have done to "foster a pool of local candidates" and show what impact the choice of overseas candidates have on the local labour market.
Briefing notes after the speech also suggested they could be required to "be clear about the proportion of their workforce which is international", a practice which the Home Office says is standard in the US.
Ms Rudd said the existing system did not give firms a "clear incentive" to properly consider the merits of local candidates or to spend more on training to equip them to do the jobs on offer.
The orientation of the UK as is to be seen by statements of the Home Secretary speaks for itself and herself. One might tell by that the direction towards which they are heading.
Sounds positively mediaeval to me as this was also an instrument of public humiliation back then. Makes them be seen as some sort of traitors to their own Society.Asked whether she was prepared to "name and shame" companies which did not comply by publishing a breakdown of the nationality of their workforce, Ms Rudd told BBC Radio 4's Today it was "not something we are definitely going to do" but it was "one of the tools" under review "as a way of nudging people into better behaviour". ...
Well, that was like p*ssing against the wind because her proposals speak a clear language....
Ms Rudd, who campaigned to remain in the EU during the referendum, said she was careful not "to fall into the trap" of using such language - particularly given the volatile climate after the Brexit vote in which immigration remains a highly-charged issue and some areas have seen a rise in hate crimes.
"I am very aware about the language and when I looked at the speech and thought how I would present it," she said. ...
The times when people liked to "talk" about Immigration are Long past, now they want to see Action and that´s exactly what she´s talking about without wanting to admit it. Maybe she´d do fine with calling her a populist instead....
"And I don't think we should have a situation where we can't talk about immigration. We must not ignore the fact that people want to talk about immigration and if we do talk about immigration don't call me a racist." ...
Meanwhile, the UKIP faces a new leadership crisis after the recent elected one has resigned and this is also some hint for me that the Tories won´t let pass this opportunity unused in order to absorb some UKIPers. But the old dog is back again, for the time being:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37561065UKIP leadership: Nigel Farage back as Diane James quits0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »First I was considering opening an extra thread on that subject, but I think that the story fits this one, as the Tory Party is about to be more UKIP than the UKIP herself.
Sure to scare off multi-nationals, and add a lot of extra paper work for British companies. Will also scare off professionals from wanting to work in the UK, if your going to put on some mad list demanded by the government.
There is an opportunity here for Ireland, to use this to our advantage. Let multinationals know, we don't require crazy quasi-fascist lists of foreigners on the pay roll. Sure, we could even get some British companies to consider relocating, so they can avoid the insane nonsense especially as many may consider wanting to have or expand there European operations.
I can see instance of non-white British nationals, having to prove there nationality as well. Will make things very uncomfortable for a lot of people and will certainly further increase racism, that Brexit already stirred up. With each passing day, I appreciate more and more the decision my Grand Father made to setup his business in Ireland in the 70s, and as such I live in Ireland as opposed to the increasingly racist Brexit Britain.0 -
Sure to scare off multi-nationals, and add a lot of extra paper work for British companies. Will also scare off professionals from wanting to work in the UK, if your going to put on some mad list demanded by the government.
There is an opportunity here for Ireland, to use this to our advantage. Let multinationals know, we don't require crazy quasi-fascist lists of foreigners on the pay roll. Sure, we could even get some British companies to consider relocating, so they can avoid the insane nonsense especially as many may consider wanting to have or expand there European operations.
I can see instance of non-white British nationals, having to prove there nationality as well. Will make things very uncomfortable for a lot of people and will certainly further increase racism, that Brexit already stirred up.
Yes, I see it that way too. Ireland is getting lots of opportunites from this insane Brexit development where the Brits appear to lose all their senses and rationality with a Tory Party in government that is eager to beat UKIP and even BNP by taking over (parts) of their very agendas.
This present UK is the same country that stood up against Hitler (even when it was already very late), the country of Churchill who forged the anti-Hitler-coalition in order to beat Nazism. Oswald Mosley would be proud of this present UK govt for their proposals would be right up his street.
This ominous list is where it all will start and by that weak opposition in the Commons, Mrs May seems to can do what she likes and don´t give much of a fiddlers about the UK-EU deal because when those proposals come into effect, they won´t stop at EU nationals, they will go further as you said too, even affecting those non-White Brits already born there or naturalised. The Brits did likewise in WWI and WWII when having a go at naturalised Brits who were Germans before they got British citizenship.
The UK is really rearing her ugly Fascist head and who had thought of it last year? I never dreamed this to happen in our times.0 -
This ominous list is where it all will start and by that weak opposition in the Commons, Mrs May seems to can do what she likes and don´t give much of a fiddlers about the UK-EU deal because when those proposals come into effect, they won´t stop at EU nationals, they will go further as you said too, even affecting those non-White Brits already born there or naturalised. The Brits did likewise in WWI and WWII when having a go at naturalised Brits who were Germans before they got British citizenship.
The UK is really rearing her ugly Fascist head and who had thought of it last year? I never dreamed this to happen in our times.
This is rather excessive fear mongering and adds little to the debate.0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »This ominous list is where it all will start and by that weak opposition in the Commons, Mrs May seems to can do what she likes and don´t give much of a fiddlers about the UK-EU deal because when those proposals come into effect, they won´t stop at EU nationals, they will go further as you said too, even affecting those non-White Brits already born there or naturalised. The Brits did likewise in WWI and WWII when having a go at naturalised Brits who were Germans before they got British citizenship.
Its already happening:
Non-white schoolchildren asked to provide proof they are not asylum seekers
Will see the same in work places now. Completely insane to shoot themselves in the foot like this.0 -
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This is rather excessive fear mongering and adds little to the debate.
We already having non-white kids having to prove there not asylum seekers. These kind or rules effect people lives, and seeing as we are already seeing some of the effects, it most certainly is not fear mongering.
Seriously, you can't tell me, there is no issue with a government ministers proposing that employers put together a list of foreigners working for them? We already see something similar being abused, and no doubt this work place list, will similarly be abused.0 -
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Its already happening:
Non-white schoolchildren asked to provide proof they are not asylum seekers
Will see the same in work places now. Completely insane to shoot themselves in the foot like this.
Thanks for that article, it´s really sickening.0 -
The EU is already dealing with Switzerland on this and the EU has been absolutely explicit from the start that if the Swiss restrict FoM & impose quotas on EU citizens, they automatically lose Single Market access.
Since the Swiss negotiations are on going, you cannot speculate as to the actual outcome, bombast is just that - bombastAnd access to the customs union is not the same as access to the single market. Turkey has the former but broadly speaking the agreement for this covers goods and excludes services (which happen to be a major UK success story).
I said that I believe the UK will remains inside the Customs Union, thats not the same as Turkey which has merely a trade agreement of sortsEither we are in the EU or we are not,
neither of which is a unique situation. Who is supposed to give us concessions and for what?
we are in a unique situation as the only land border with the UK, the imposition of travel controls will not be politically contemplated by any irish Government . Thats basic fact remains and will force the EU to deal with that situation.The UK government would appear to profoundly disagree with you since they seem to be increasingly determined to opt for the hardest of hard Brexits. That's what they are saying and if they paint themselves into that corner, there is no way they can suddenly turn around and deliver a soft Brexit of any kind.
The uK is in a very weak situation as thats how Article 50 was designed. BY talking up a " hard exit " the UK is trying to exert a lever on the EU , one I think that will fail, both sides have to be seen to be " talking tough " , behind the scenes right now you can be assured that civil servants are beavering away looking for paths to an acceptable solutionAt no stage did the Greek government ever have this as a policy or even a desire, so their situation was fundamentally different to the UK situation
I merely used the example to illustrate the effect of bombastic comment as compared to what finally happened, on the thread on greece I constantly maintained that the EU would reach an agreement with Greece and provide the necessary funds, all around bombastic comments suggested doom and gloom etc. in the end a pragmatic solution prevailed , despite the pronouncements from various german politicians that Greece should be kicked out , ( or their islands seized etc )
it will get sorted in a manner that allows all sides to save face0 -
I admire your optimism, but it seems to me that brinkmanship has prevailed, which doesn't lend itself to mutual face-saving.it will get sorted in a manner that allows all sides to save face
The Brexiteers have insisted that they can negotiate access to the common market without free movement of people. That's something that the EU simply can't allow, as it's a founding principle of the Union.
Someone's going to have to back down, and I can't see the EU capitulating on what is, fundamentally, an existential issue compared to a mere political one for the UK.0 -
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oscarBravo wrote: »I admire your optimism, but it seems to me that brinkmanship has prevailed, which doesn't lend itself to mutual face-saving.
The Brexiteers have insisted that they can negotiate access to the common market without free movement of people. That's something that the EU simply can't allow, as it's a founding principle of the Union.
Someone's going to have to back down, and I can't see the EU capitulating on what is, fundamentally, an existential issue compared to a mere political one for the UK.
it is not in the interests of the Eu to find a major market for community products , completely outside the customs unions, its equally not in the Uks interest to find itself at WTO barrier levels to trading with its biggest marketplace. ( never mind passporting rights etc )
A compromise will be arrived at , the EU has shown itself remarkably lacking in idealogical purity when practical realities prevail ( no EU bailout for banks , err yes , no QE , err yes , no more money for club med, err yes )0 -
Irish Passports becoming more a subject of desire in GB, as a result of the Brexit and I guess that not less applicants are applying for an Irish Passport in order to have the proper document to Exit GB when it becomes unbearable for them to live there or won´t travel on a British Passport (they´ll soon enough got back to the blue ones after the UK has exited the EU).
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37563824The number of applications for Irish passports from people living in Great Britain has almost doubled since the UK voted to leave the European Union.
New figures from the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs show that between July and September the number of GB applications rose by 96%.
There were 3,431 applications in September 2015, compared to 7,518 in September 2016.
Year-on-year applications from Northern Ireland have also risen since the vote.
They have increased by two thirds since in the three months since the Brexit decision.
Everyone from Northern Ireland is entitled to both British and Irish citizenship as a result of the Good Friday Agreement.
Blessed are those with Irish ancestry in these days.0 -
it is not in the interests of the Eu to find a major market for community products , completely outside the customs unions, its equally not in the Uks interest to find itself at WTO barrier levels to trading with its biggest marketplace. ( never mind passporting rights etc )
A compromise will be arrived at , the EU has shown itself remarkably lacking in idealogical purity when practical realities prevail ( no EU bailout for banks , err yes , no QE , err yes , no more money for club med, err yes )
Well, some Brit chap in an interview a couple of days ago didn´t seem to have too much of a problem with that (highlightened in bold). He was quite referring to those WTO rules and appeared happy with it, just to keep the EU out of the British law process and have harsh restrictions on immigration. It´s only that people like that chap are interested in and wether they get a tailored UK-EU deal or not looks more second rate than anything.
Sorry, I can´t recall his name, just saw him in a tv news interview and thought, as usual, what an utter idiot that chap is, like so many others of the same mindset like himself.0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »Well, some Brit chap in an interview a couple of days ago didn´t seem to have too much of a problem with that (highlightened in bold). He was quite referring to those WTO rules and appeared happy with it, just to keep the EU out of the British law process and have harsh restrictions on immigration. It´s only that people like that chap are interested in and wether they get a tailored UK-EU deal or not looks more second rate than anything.
Sorry, I can´t recall his name, just saw him in a tv news interview and thought, as usual, what an utter idiot that chap is, like so many others of the same mindset like himself.
there are many " fog in channel - continent cut off " types around at present , however in general wiser heads will prevail as the process continues. The more we keep politicians out of this process the better it will be in my opinion. Too many people trying to gain personal advantage .0 -
Good to see that the London Stock Market is getting a bit nervous:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37560471Hard Brexit 'could cost financial sector £38bn'
The financial industry could lose £38bn if the UK quits the single market, a report commissioned by a group lobbying on behalf of the City has said.
The report, commissioned by TheCityUK, also said up to 75,000 jobs could go.
The sector is concerned at the prospect of a so-called "hard Brexit", with the UK leaving the EU single market in order to regain control of immigration.
On Sunday, the Prime Minister said "we are not leaving the EU only to give up control of immigration again".
Her comments helped to trigger a fall in the pound, which dropped to a 31-year low against the dollar on Tuesday.
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No worries, Mrs May as stubborn as she appears to be, will have no concerns about that and just keep going on. Yeah, the GBP has again reached its lowest rate since 1985, that´s really "great news".
Never mind the worries of the financial sector, as "London can take it", until they start leaving the wracked ship Britannia. Could be a "Dance on the Titanic" once again.0 -
How could the UK possibly stay within the Customs' Union and explore anywhere near what they have been talking about? They would have no control whatsoever about external (to the EU) trade deals, as would cede control (pooled sovereignty) to the EU in that competency.
That doesn't at all tally with what Davis,Fox nor even May has suggested.0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »Good to see that the London Stock Market is getting a bit nervous:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37560471
No worries, Mrs May as stubborn as she appears to be, will have no concerns about that and just keep going on. Yeah, the GBP has again reached its lowest rate since 1985, that´s really "great news".
Never mind the worries of the financial sector, as "London can take it", until they start leaving the wracked ship Britannia. Could be a "Dance on the Titanic" once again.
if you are negotiating to buy a car, the last thing you say to the buyer is , " I love this particular car, and I really need it " , in genera you say " hmm, not sure I like this one at all ", ( while of course secretly you really want to buy it )
its called a negotiation stance , and the UK is trying desperately too find one.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »How could the UK possibly stay within the Customs' Union?
That doesn't at all tally with what Davis,Fox nor even May has suggested.
they want access to the single market and passporting rights , essentially thats remaining in the CU. ( rather like the Channel islands )0 -
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there are many " fog in channel - continent cut off " types around at present , however in general wiser heads will prevail as the process continues. The more we keep politicians out of this process the better it will be in my opinion. Too many people trying to gain personal advantage .
I doubt that, because this time is the time of the big mouth populists and they will prevail by their attitude to please the mob and the high-brow chauvinists.
Mrs May is acting the tough women, trying to even topping Thatcher in her peak years. All is "hard", "tough" and "determined". Using such terms and acting in accordance with them is sending out messages that cannot be undone unless she´ll risk to lose face when she has to back off from her hard stance in order to get a deal done.
Mrs May is certainly wise enough to play with Mr Johnson (who has always be seen as a big polit-Clown in my view), but can´t fool to the other 27 EU member states cos they´re already fed up with the UK and the special treatment this country received since the days of Thatcher. Mrs May should know that and I´m most certain that she already knows it but still, acting the strong leader is the order of the day for her, well this won´t go unanswered at all.0 -
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Since the Swiss negotiations are on going, you cannot speculate as to the actual outcome
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it will get sorted in a manner that allows all sides to save face
1) Since the negotiations haven't even started, you cannot speculate as to the actual outcome (according to yourself)
2) There is no solution that will allow Liam Fox and Juncker both to save face. One of them is going down, and Fox is in the much weaker position.0 -
its called a negotiation stance , and the UK is trying desperately too find one.
Seems to be back firing, as we are taking them at there word. Hard Brexit is what we are expecting, and I see no reason to expect anything less. With all this talk of foreigner lists and what not. It seems clear the conservatives have gone full UKIP on us.0 -
Seems to be back firing, as we are taking them at there word. Hard Brexit is what we are expecting, and I see no reason to expect anything less. With all this talk of foreigner lists and what not. It seems clear the conservatives have gone full UKIP on us.
as I said where you to beleiev certain German politicians , Greece would be well on the way out of the euro at present
Its going to take the best part of three years to arrive at a conclusion , whats said now is virtually irrelevant and is mainly to establish a negotiating position or from domestic political consumption
we have stacks of water to pass under bridges , at this point the UK remains in the EU , and we have 6 months to the trigger point . lots to happen yet0 -
The more we keep politicians out of this process the better it will be in my opinion. Too many people trying to gain personal advantage .
The whole thing was cooked up by Cameron for political advantage, to outflank UKIP and highlight Labour divisions. It's a political stunt from beginning to end, you can't keep politicians out (on the EU side as well as the UK one).0 -
if you are negotiating to buy a car, the last thing you say to the buyer is , " I love this particular car, and I really need it " , in genera you say " hmm, not sure I like this one at all ", ( while of course secretly you really want to buy it )
its called a negotiation stance , and the UK is trying desperately too find one.
Sorry, but your simplifications don´t work on this one. There are essential things at stake which can´t be compared with how a car purchase works.
Mrs May can´t drop her anti-Immigration stance and that includes EU member state citizens. By that, she´s having the biggest obstacle put in her way by herself and those who voted for the Brexit. The EU won´t bow on that principle of free movement in Exchange for access to the single market. No way and she knows that perfectly well. So, either drop the anti-Immigration thing or leave the EU for good without the usual cherry picking special treatment of the UK for which I have no more any understanding at all.
The Brits are not special, they only see themselves as being special and that´s nothing but a sign of egotistical behaviour to me which has no rational basis whatsoever.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19383
I think the UK electorate should remember the poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller :
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Racism is insidious - some of my best friends are racists although they deny it.
Those living within the EU on British passports might get a surprise after the Brexit deal no matter what the deal done actually is. [Health costs, property taxes, income taxes, etc.]0 -
Seems to be back firing, as we are taking them at there word. Hard Brexit is what we are expecting, and I see no reason to expect anything less. With all this talk of foreigner lists and what not. It seems clear the conservatives have gone full UKIP on us.
I see it more as getting even more closer to the BNP by now. Please the mob, as if all those 52% in favour of the Brexit are all part of that mob.0 -
it is not in the interests of the Eu to find a major market for community products , completely outside the customs unions, its equally not in the Uks interest to find itself at WTO barrier levels to trading with its biggest marketplace. ( never mind passporting rights etc )
A compromise will be arrived at , the EU has shown itself remarkably lacking in idealogical purity when practical realities prevail ( no EU bailout for banks , err yes , no QE , err yes , no more money for club med, err yes )
Well yes, but in the example you gave previously, Greece, they showed themselves to be extremely stubborn as well.
I don't know what to make of the declaring of non Uk national proposal, I'm struggling to find an advantage or benefit for it.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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at this point the UK remains in the EU , and we have 6 months to the trigger point . lots to happen yet
Yes, and the more hard brexit talk we hear, the nearer to the exits international business will go. Contingency plans are being bumped up in priority all around the UK - and Sterling hit a 5 year low against the Euro, a 31 year low against the Dollar.0 -
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as I said where you to beleiev certain German politicians , Greece would be well on the way out of the euro at present
Its going to take the best part of three years to arrive at a conclusion , whats said now is virtually irrelevant and is mainly to establish a negotiating position or from domestic political consumption
we have stacks of water to pass under bridges , at this point the UK remains in the EU , and we have 6 months to the trigger point . lots to happen yet
Greece didn´t vote for leaving the EU and that is an essential difference to what the UK did, apart form the fact the Greece is bankrupt and the UK wanted to avoid being dragged into some solidarity payment for them or any other Euro country in crisis.0
This discussion has been closed.
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