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Brexit Referendum Superthread
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Sam Russell wrote: »I think the UK electorate should remember the poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller :
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Racism is insidious - some of my best friends are racists although they deny it.
Those living within the EU on British passports might get a surprise after the Brexit deal no matter what the deal done actually is. [Health costs, property taxes, income taxes, etc.]
That poem has very often been cited, but rarely followed cos those who should read and think about it, simply refuse to acknowledge its content and meaning. That´s sad, but unfortunately true. But it doesn´t makes the Poem wrong, on the contrary, it wasn´t that much up to date for a long time as it is has become by now.0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »Sorry, but your simplifications don´t work on this one. There are essential things at stake which can´t be compared with how a car purchase works.
Mrs May can´t drop her anti-Immigration stance and that includes EU member state citizens. By that, she´s having the biggest obstacle put in her way by herself and those who voted for the Brexit. The EU won´t bow on that principle of free movement in Exchange for access to the single market. No way and she knows that perfectly well. So, either drop the anti-Immigration thing or leave the EU for good without the usual cherry picking special treatment of the UK for which I have no more any understanding at all.
The Brits are not special, they only see themselves as being special and that´s nothing but a sign of egotistical behaviour to me which has no rational basis whatsoever.
To simply boil this down to Immigration versus single market is nonsense. Mrs May may not even be PM when this deal is complete ,who knows
The EU has very few " principles" in reality, Qe was never going to be allowed, Club med was never going to get any more money , the ECB cannot bail out banks , all turned out t be false and the EU found ways to get around various idealogical positions
in the end of the day , The UK wants some controls over immigration, while preferably retaining access to the Single market , the EU has nothing to gain from the UK being completely outside the EU as a third party country
those two things are enough to make a deal possible and politicians excel at th art of convincing us what they are doing now is the same as what they promised three years ago ( or that the new reality is better for us anyway )0 -
To simply boil this down to Immigration versus single market is nonsense. Mrs May may not even be PM when this deal is complete ,who knows
The EU has very few " principles" in reality, Qe was never going to be allowed, Club med was never going to get any more money , the ECB cannot bail out banks , all turned out t be false and the EU found ways to get around various idealogical positions
in the end of the day , The UK wants some controls over immigration, while preferably retaining access to the Single market , the EU has nothing to gain from the UK being completely outside the EU as a third party country
those two things are enough to make a deal possible and politicians excel at th art of convincing us what they are doing now is the same as what they promised three years ago ( or that the new reality is better for us anyway )
http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/1005/821560-hard-brexit-could-cost-uk-financial-industry-l38/The British financial industry could lose up to £38 billion (€43 billion) in revenue in a so-called 'hard Brexit' that would leave it with restricted access to the European Union's single market, according to a report commissioned by a financial industry group.Britain's financial services sector generates between £190 and £205 billion of revenue each year and employs about 1.1 million people, the report said.
The industry pays about £60 to £67 billion in taxes.
Do you think that Industry would just disappear? Or would they instead look to relocate within the EU in order to continue operation?0 -
as I said where you to beleiev certain German politicians , Greece would be well on the way out of the euro at present
Its going to take the best part of three years to arrive at a conclusion , whats said now is virtually irrelevant and is mainly to establish a negotiating position or from domestic political consumption
we have stacks of water to pass under bridges , at this point the UK remains in the EU , and we have 6 months to the trigger point . lots to happen yet
Well, if your right, then there tactic of going full Farage, will not endear themselves to the rest of us in the EU. The simple fact, is that I see no reason to not take them at there word. There supporters won't put up with back tracking on all the crazy anti-foreigner sentiment there stirring up.0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »Greece didn´t vote for leaving the EU and that is an essential difference to what the UK did, apart form the fact the Greece is bankrupt and the UK wanted to avoid being dragged into some solidarity payment for them or any other Euro country in crisis.
aw gee , you miss why I was using them as an example . I merely used Greeces experience to show you that what the bombast of the EU ( and greek politicians ) and what transpired in reality where very different, in the end a pragmatic process was trashed out despite bombastic politicians ( and their fellow commentators ) expounding on doom and gloom and all manner of hardline positions
in the UKs case, the UK with leave the EU as a formal member , I believe a pragmatic solution that will allow the UK to remain in one form or another ( perhaps even a new form) will be trashed out and that solution will be acceptable to the UK and the EU
Remember at the end of the day the issue of Scotland and NI/ROI issues also have to be factored in,0 -
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Well, if your right, then there tactic of going full Farage, will not endear themselves to the rest of us in the EU. The simple fact, is that I see no reason to not take them at there word. There supporters won't put up with back tracking on all the crazy anti-foreigner sentiment there stirring up.
well certain German politicians would have then thrown out tomorrow, so lets leave all the jingoism and bombastic pronouncements to one side.
Most people dont believe what politicians say anyway , so why believe them on this issue ( and just where is all that money thats to flow to the NHS gone ......)0 -
What ground the the EU cede to Tsipras?aw gee , you miss why I was using them as an example . I merely used Greeces experience to show you that what the bombast of the EU ( and greek politicians ) and what transpired in reality where very different, in the end a pragmatic process was trashed out despite bombastic politicians ( and their fellow commentators ) expounding on doom and gloom and all manner of hardline positions
in the UKs case, the UK with leave the EU as a formal member , I believe a pragmatic solution that will allow the UK to remain in one form or another ( perhaps even a new form) will be trashed out and that solution will be acceptable to the UK and the EU
Remember at the end of the day the issue of Scotland and NI/ROI issues also have to be factored in,
The EU never changed tack once, Tsipras realised this and reverted back from the antagonism that he had previously espoused. Tsipras brought Greece to the edge and at the last moment turned back, the EU didn't blink, and didn't change any direction.
It's a poor choice of example, if anything it offers the opposite than what you have suggested it for.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »See my edit. They cannot be both within and outside the EU custom's union at once.
Schrödinger's customs union?0 -
To simply boil this down to Immigration versus single market is nonsense. Mrs May may not even be PM when this deal is complete ,who knows
Unless she quits, calls for an early (snap) GE or gets overthrown by her own Party chums, she will be PM when the UK finally exits the EU because the next in term GE is in 2020 and by that, given that she really triggers Article 50 in March 2017, the two years for negotiation or automatically leave ends on 31 March 2019.The EU has very few " principles" in reality, Qe was never going to be allowed, Club med was never going to get any more money , the ECB cannot bail out banks , all turned out t be false and the EU found ways to get around various idealogical positions
Rules can be bowed for member states if all of them agree or approve of it in order of the greater good, but this doesn´t appears to be the case for the UK exiting the EU. It´s quite another matter and there is already strong resistance from all the EU member states that the UK shouldn´t be granted special deals. It´ll be either take it or leave it and the EU will finally decide what they are going to comply with on what the UK seeks to get for herself or not. The UK isn´t a world power anymore, those times are long gone.in the end of the day , The UK wants some controls over immigration, while preferably retaining access to the Single market , the EU has nothing to gain from the UK being completely outside the EU as a third party country
The recent statements of some of the UK govt members speak for itself and points to the direction the UK is heading and those aims are already going beyond "some controls over immigration". But you´re free to ignore that of course.those two things are enough to make a deal possible and politicians excel at th art of convincing us what they are doing now is the same as what they promised three years ago ( or that the new reality is better for us anyway )
You really Sound like some of those deluded Brexiteers that felt for the lies of Farage and Johnson. Well, good luck to you anyway cos if you´re British, as you appear to be to me, you´ll suffer from the Brexit like the other 48% who voted against the Brexit (those 48% are the only part of the Brits I still have kept the rest of my once big sympathy and backing of the UK, but which has shrunk in due course by the ugly Events in the wake and aftermath of the Brexit).
Like old Cameron always said "we´re all in this together". Well, certainly you are, but I´m glad that I´m out of it, thanks to my nationality which is not British.0 -
well certain German politicians would have then thrown out tomorrow, so lets leave all the jingoism and bombastic pronouncements to one side.
Do you mind telling the UKi.... I mean the conservative party that. May help with things, if they stop that.Most people dont believe what politicians say anyway , so why believe them on this issue ( and just where is all that money thats to flow to the NHS gone ......)
Then the conservatives are in for a surprise, as the Brexiters won't put up with there crap. They have seen the promised land, and if they don't get it, I have no doubt they will make those who displeased them pay a heavy price.0 -
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Thomas_... wrote: »Unless she quits, calls for an early (snap) GE or gets overthrown by her own Party chums, she will be PM when the UK finally exits the EU because the next in term GE is in 2020 and by that, given that she really triggers Article 50 in March 2017, the two years for negotiation or automatically leave ends on 31 March 2019.
Rules can be bowed for member states if all of them agree or approve of it in order of the greater good, but this doesn´t appears to be the case for the UK exiting the EU. It´s quite another matter and there is already strong resistance from all the EU member states that the UK shouldn´t be granted special deals. It´ll be either take it or leave it and the EU will finally decide what they are going to comply with on what the UK seeks to get for herself or not. The UK isn´t a world power anymore, those times are long gone.
The recent statements of some of the UK govt members speak for itself and points to the direction the UK is heading and those aims are already going beyond "some controls over immigration". But you´re free to ignore that of course.
You really Sound like some of those deluded Brexiteers that felt for the lies of Farage and Johnson. Well, good luck to you anyway cos if you´re British, as you appear to be to me, you´ll suffer from the Brexit like the other 48% who voted against the Brexit (those 48% are the only part of the Brits I still have kept the rest of my once big sympathy and backing of the UK, but which has shrunk in due course by the ugly Events in the wake and aftermath of the Brexit).
Like old Cameron always said "we´re all in this together". Well, certainly you are, but I´m glad that I´m out of it, thanks to my nationality which is not British.
I'm Irish actually
my cynicism on the " pronouncements" of politicians is at a very developed level. We have the best part of 2 ½ years of talks to reach an agreement and even then I think the trigger point may get moved
I know there seems to be an element now of schadenfreude , just like when the greeks were knee deep in trouble, " the make then pay " grouping inside the EU and outside crowed long and hard about this. Ultimately pragmatism prevailed and a compromise was reached
I see no reason why this wont happen with the UK. The UK needs access to the single market and the EU has little to gain by having the UK outside it
The UK wants to excerpt controls over its immigration ( to an extent not clear at this juncture ) and the EU can of course create certain special cases if it wants to.
I am not a supporter of Brexit , in fact it was one of the most mindless and stupid applications of democracy ever seen. but I remain confident that pragmatism ( and the money movers behind it ) will win the day0 -
aw gee , you miss why I was using them as an example . I merely used Greeces experience to show you that what the bombast of the EU ( and greek politicians ) and what transpired in reality where very different, in the end a pragmatic process was trashed out despite bombastic politicians ( and their fellow commentators ) expounding on doom and gloom and all manner of hardline positions
in the UKs case, the UK with leave the EU as a formal member , I believe a pragmatic solution that will allow the UK to remain in one form or another ( perhaps even a new form) will be trashed out and that solution will be acceptable to the UK and the EU
Remember at the end of the day the issue of Scotland and NI/ROI issues also have to be factored in,
Sorry, I´ve missed nothing but you´ve missed the point by your comparison of GR vs UK that it was in the interest of the EU to impose the Austerity continuation on the Greek government because Greece was to be kept in the Euro Zone (despite some public considerations and calls for them to leave the Euro Zone).
The UK isn´t in the Euro Zone, neither is she a member of the Schengen Agreement, of which Greece is and the fact that the £ is on a low rate, the worst since 1985, isn´t of such a big concern for the EU and the Euro Zone, it´s more a matter for the Brits themselves.
The more demanding and perhaps even aggressive the UK goes into the negotiations with the EU, the lesser the chances will be that the Brits get what they want.0 -
Then the conservatives are in for a surprise, as the Brexiters won't put up with there crap. They have seen the promised land, and if they don't get it, I have no doubt they will make those who displeased them pay a heavy price.
They have no real mechanism to do that inreality0 -
I'm Irish actually
my cynicism on the " pronouncements" of politicians is at a very developed level. We have the best part of 2 ½ years of talks to reach an agreement and even then I think the trigger point may get moved
I know there seems to be an element now of schadenfreude , just like when the greeks were knee deep in trouble, " the make then pay " grouping inside the EU and outside crowed long and hard about this. Ultimately pragmatism prevailed and a compromise was reached
I see no reason why this wont happen with the UK. The UK needs access to the single market and the EU has little to gain by having the UK outside it
The UK wants to excerpt controls over its immigration ( to an extent not clear at this juncture ) and the EU can of course create certain special cases if it wants to.
I am not a supporter of Brexit , in fact it was on elf the most mindless and studies applications of democracy ever seen. but I remain confident that pragmatism ( and the money movers behind it ) will win the day
When the Greek Prime Minister ceded that his position and approach was utterly ridiculous, and his demands were impossible and unrealistic. He dutifully removed them, and agreed to continue with the EU's prescribed solution. This agreement involved a return to the path that he had so dangerously veered from, so much so that the cuts and pain necessary to return to said path were worse than what had been done before.
Importantly, this was a pragmatic solution arrived at unilaterally. The EU's position was absolute throughout, and is indeed still the same position today. What compromise was offered?
To use this as a base to suggest that a post-Brexit solution will be reached is to suggest that the UK will come to their senses about the paradoxical nature of their 'demands' and skulk back into the EU with their tail between their legs. Something I think is fantastically unlikely...0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »Sorry, I´ve missed nothing but you´ve missed the point by your comparison of GR vs UK that it was in the interest of the EU to impose the Austerity continuation on the Greek government because Greece was to be kept in the Euro Zone (despite some public considerations and calls for them to leave the Euro Zone).
The UK isn´t in the Euro Zone, neither is she a member of the Schengen Agreement, of which Greece is and the fact that the £ is on a low rate, the worst since 1985, isn´t of such a big concern for the EU and the Euro Zone, it´s more a matter for the Brits themselves.
The more demanding and perhaps even aggressive the UK goes into the negotiations with the EU, the lesser the chances will be that the Brits get what they want.
we are merely at the opening gambit , all sides tend to take extreme views , expressing their desires, expected outcomes and attempting to " define positions " , rather like rutting stags.
over time pragmatism and the rule of the money men will prevail0 -
we are merely at the opening gambit , all sides tend to take extreme views , expressing their desires, expected outcomes and attempting to " define positions " , rather like rutting stags.
over time pragmatism and the rule of the money men will prevail
The Brexit vote tells a different story. Brexiters abandoned rationality a long time ago. Did you forget there sick of experts?0 -
To simply boil this down to Immigration versus single market is nonsense. Mrs May may not even be PM when this deal is complete ,who knows
The EU has very few " principles" in reality, Qe was never going to be allowed, Club med was never going to get any more money , the ECB cannot bail out banks , all turned out t be false and the EU found ways to get around various idealogical positions
in the end of the day , The UK wants some controls over immigration, while preferably retaining access to the Single market , the EU has nothing to gain from the UK being completely outside the EU as a third party country
those two things are enough to make a deal possible and politicians excel at th art of convincing us what they are doing now is the same as what they promised three years ago ( or that the new reality is better for us anyway )
Bank bailouts or QE were structural problems with the Euro.
For trade deals there are plenty of precedents to look at, Switzerland and Norway good examples. There are limits on how much the EU can cede to any 1 country.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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well certain German politicians would have then thrown out tomorrow, so lets leave all the jingoism and bombastic pronouncements to one side.
Most people dont believe what politicians say anyway , so why believe them on this issue ( and just where is all that money thats to flow to the NHS gone ......)
Well, I trust that you remember that Greek EU/Austerity referendum from Summer last year for which Mr Tsipras has called and got a majority backing by his people, but to no avail. The EU took notice of it, but that was that and in the end, Greece had to comply with the demands of the EU.
The "jingoism and bombastic pronouncements" were on the side of Tsipras and who was the one who lost? Yes, Tsipras. The EU is holding the lever and it will be so in a similar way with the UK.
It´s always the same, those who suffer most are the ordinary people, whether in Greece as it is now for years, or in the UK which will come soon enough.
People yearn for politicians who promise them the impossible and then they vote for them, bringing them into power just to see later, that they who promised them the impossible can´t deliver it either.0 -
we are merely at the opening gambit , all sides tend to take extreme views , expressing their desires, expected outcomes and attempting to " define positions " , rather like rutting stags.
over time pragmatism and the rule of the money men will prevail
The only side who persistently comes up with extreme views and demands are - so far - only the Brits, as they appear more and more desperate to get out of this mess they´ve voted themselves in.0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »The only side who persistently comes up with extreme views and demands are - so far - only the Brits, as they appear more and more desperate to get out of this mess they´ve voted themselves in.
of course, wise and measured minds in the UK would most likely reset the clock if they could.
However they are were they are and their is a huge volume of water to flow under bridges before we see any clarity . and remember we cant predict the future precisely because you cannot expect the unexpected0 -
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Thomas_... wrote: »Well, I trust that you remember that Greek EU/Austerity referendum from Summer last year for which Mr Tsipras has called and got a majority backing by his people, but to no avail. The EU took notice of it, but that was that and in the end, Greece had to comply with the demands of the EU.
The "jingoism and bombastic pronouncements" were on the side of Tsipras and who was the one who lost? Yes, Tsipras. The EU is holding the lever and it will be so in a similar way with the UK.
It´s always the same, those who suffer most are the ordinary people, whether in Greece as it is now for years, or in the UK which will come soon enough.
People yearn for politicians who promise them the impossible and then they vote for them, bringing them into power just to see later, that they who promised them the impossible can´t deliver it either.
I am not disputing the fact that Breexit will have effects in the average Brition, possibly to a level that they will find difficult to stomach. what I am saying is that a compromise will be reached thats all0 -
Well, if your right, then there tactic of going full Farage, will not endear themselves to the rest of us in the EU. The simple fact, is that I see no reason to not take them at there word. There supporters won't put up with back tracking on all the crazy anti-foreigner sentiment there stirring up.
There probably is about 15 or 20% of the population that don't want any type of deal with the EU. A lot may depend on if Farage stays around, it's starting to look like he might not have much choice.
A problem is nobody seems to be making the case for a reasonable or possible practical proposal, it's all about what the UK demands. The problem is that any deal is going to be a fair bit away from those demands and you'll have Farage gleefully pointing that out and Boris, Fox et al fighting between themselves.
May doesn't seem to be preparing the public for what is possible and probable. Maybe they actually don't want a deal like Switzerland or Norway?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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There probably is about 15 or 20% of the population that don't want any type of deal with the EU. A lot may depend on if Farage stays around, it's starting to look like he might not have much choice.
A problem is nobody seems to be making the case for a reasonable or possible practical proposal, it's all about what the UK demands. The problem is that any deal is going to be a fair bit away from those demands and you'll have Farage gleefully pointing that out and Boris, Fox et al fighting between themselves.
May doesn't seem to be preparing the public for what is possible and probable. Maybe they actually don't want a deal like Switzerland or Norway?
I think you read too much into the here and now. UKIP is in disarray and is unlikely to be any political force in the future , essentially its bed has been robbed
We are only barely into the process ( in fact we are not even at the starting gates ) , much of what we hear is political posturing.
Now is not the time to prepare the public for anything , as that gives away you negotiating position , remember Maggie played tough and got a reduction in UK payments etc. You certainly dont start off by flagging concessions.
Politically the Tories must play a game that all is well and the UK will be successful, you can hardly expect the Gov of the day tho run down its own country, so talking up is the game in town for the moment
whats going on behind the scenes is entirely different
( as we know Governments dont talk to terrorists for example ..... LOL )0 -
I'm Irish actually
Well, fair enough then, just an apparently most pro-Brit one, judged by your posts.
Nothing against cynicism towards politicians, the many of them really deserved it.my cynicism on the " pronouncements" of politicians is at a very developed level. We have the best part of 2 ½ years of talks to reach an agreement and even then I think the trigger point may get moved
I never held any sort of "Schadenfreude" towards the Greek people, but I also didn´t ignore the fact that the people there have a really so called "tradition" of tax avoidance or / and even evasion. The bail out and the austerities were all due to the bank crisis on which the Greek governments were not that innocent that they were so sloppy on keeping an eye on it and tackle corruption and tax evasion.I know there seems to be an element now of schadenfreude , just like when the greeks were knee deep in trouble, " the make then pay " grouping inside the EU and outside crowed long and hard about this. Ultimately pragmatism prevailed and a compromise was reached
I do see a reason for why this won´t happen with the UK because it´s the sheer arrogance on the side of the Brits which makes it more harder for themselves to achieve their aims and because they demand a constellation the EU has already ruled out.I see no reason why this wont happen with the UK. The UK needs access to the single market and the EU has little to gain by having the UK outside it
Well, thank you but you´ve reiterated this for long enough and frankly, it´s getting tedious to have it on and on and on in your posts.The UK wants to excerpt controls over its immigration ( to an extent not clear at this juncture ) and the EU can of course create certain special cases if it wants to.
Maybe you´re not supporter of Brexit, but you do appear to be very naive on the whole matter cos you´re dismissing the current mood among the remaining EU member states towards the UK and the UK´s anti-Immigration stance and recent proposals won´t do anything good to Change that mood. The other EU member states have their own citizens living and working in the UK and the Polish were about those who suffered the worst in recent times since the Brexit vote. Such things don´t go down well in other EU member states and although some of them have plenty of Brits residing in their countries, it´s not necessarilly granted that if such outrages in the UK continue, those British living in EU member states around the Med won´t receive a backlash for which they are not responsible in the first place, but will be the recipient of anti-British sentiments that might grow in Europe.I am not a supporter of Brexit , in fact it was one of the most mindless and stupid applications of democracy ever seen. but I remain confident that pragmatism ( and the money movers behind it ) will win the day
Still, those aspects are of no concern for the likes of May, Farage and Johnson. I´d rather assume that they all think that every Brit has always the option to go back to the UK. Whether this is what the Brit expats want do isn´t a thing the Brexiteers care at all.0 -
The Greek debt crisis had almost nothing to do with banks. It was a Public Debt crisis borne out of absolutely outrageous fiscal ineptitude.0
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I am not disputing the fact that Breexit will have effects in the average Brition, possibly to a level that they will find difficult to stomach. what I am saying is that a compromise will be reached thats all
Well, I´d agree with you by saying that a compromise "can" be reached. It won´t necessarilly "will" be reached in case the UK govt is still acting the hard man.0 -
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Going by what she's been saying, it seems May is preparing the public for a hard Brexit, followed by shrugging and asking what people what they thought was going to happen when they voted Leave.0 -
Thomas_... wrote: »Maybe you´re not supporter of Brexit, but you do appear to be very naive on the whol matter cos you´re dismissing the current mood among the remaining EU member states towards the UK and the UK´s anti-Immigration stance and recent proposals won´t do anything good to Change that mood. The other EU member states have their own citizens living and working in the UK and the Polish were about those who suffered the worst in recent times since the Brexit vote. Such things don´t go down well in other EU member states and although some of them have plenty of Brits residing in their countries, it´s not necessarilly granted that if such outrages in the UK continue, those British living in EU member states around the Med won´t receive a backlash for which they are not responsible in the first place, but will be the recipient of anti-British sentiments that might grow in Europe.
Still, those aspects are of no concern for the likes of May, Farage and Johnson. I´d rather assume that they all think that every Brit has always the option to go back to the UK. Whether this is what the Brit expats want do isn´t a thing the Brexiteers care at all.
The EU is faced with issues around immigration in many of its member states. I personally think uncontrolled free movement of people will come to an end , certainly the concept of accepting external migrants will almost certainly be tightened up to the point of non acceptance
The issue of existing EU workers in each others countries and the UK will be solved certainly the status quo will be maintained in so much that existing EU migrants will have their status unchanged , Much of what is printed is hyperbole
"moods" are very fickle things , money is what matters in the end . Both the UK and the EU need each other , The UK can no more distance itself physically from the continent than the EU can from the UK. There are interdependencies that are extremely difficult to uncouple.
The net result will be a compromise agreement that will undoubtably be harder for the UK to swallow then the EU states in my opinion and the UK will swallow it0 -
Jep Gambardella wrote: »Going by what she's been saying, it seems May is preparing the public for a hard Brexit, followed by shrugging and asking what people what they thought was going to happen when they voted Leave.
the last thing we want to believe is what politicians tell us0 -
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Let's agree bookmark this thread and come back to it post-Brexit and see if the EU did abandon freedom of movement.0
This discussion has been closed.
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