Brexit Referendum Superthread

Bob24

Lemming wrote: »

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

While I find it distasteful its certainly not illegal. You are allowed to prevent foreign citizens from undertaking work where they have to interact with sensitive intelligence of national importance. For example Non-UK citizens are not permitted to work for GCHQ.

Poor example. GCHQ activities are subject to the official secrets act. Brexit is not. A leak would be embarassing and deeply unfortunate, but warranting charges of treason it would not. So what they [the government] are now apparently doing is out-and-out illegal.

The DFA here also has restriction for many jobs requiring their staff to be Irish citizens even when it is not related to GCHQ type of activities or does not require access to highly classified information.
It can make sense when the job involves representing the country and defending its interest, and is certainly not illegal.

BlitzKrieg

Huh...

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-in-uk-3012274-Oct2016/?utm_source=facebook_short

[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]THE UK S HOME Office has declined to say if Irish workers will be exempt from the British Government s plan to draw up a list of foreign workers.[/font]
[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Home Secretary Amber Rudd has proposed that UK companies hand the Government a list of all foreign workers it employs, in a plan designed to ensure British workers get preference for any new jobs.[/font]

[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]This continues the trend that the British government seem to be completely unaware of their relationship with Ireland.[/font]

oscarBravo

1949 Ireland Act:

2 Republic of Ireland not a foreign country.

(1)It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly.

BlitzKrieg

oscarBravo wrote: »

1949 Ireland Act:

Yeah I know that, but why when the british government is asked they couldnt give the same straight answer as you, instead opting to shrug their shoulders and decline to say either way.

oscarBravo

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Yeah I know that, but why when the british government is asked they couldnt give the same straight answer as you, instead opting to shrug their shoulders and decline to say either way.

Because that wouldn't play to the nationalist base, and might give UKIP some ammo.

Didn't you get the memo? The Conservative Party has to get one over on UKIP. Buggering up the country in the process is a price they've evidently decided they're perfectly willing to pay.

Peregrinus

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

This continues the trend that the British government seem to be completely unaware of their relationship with Ireland.[/font][/size][/color]

I suspect what's going on here is that the Home Office doesn't like to take ownership of the bizarre thought bubbles that Home Secretaries trot out for the amusement of the faithful at party conferences. This isn't a policy cooked up in the Home Office, and the Home Office are not going to take responsibility for filling in the gaps in the Home Secretary's ramblings.

More than half of the policy guff trotted out at party conferences dies the death (as this particular nonsense already has, in fact). This policy was never fleshed out in detail because it was always expected to be strangled at birth.

Thomas_...

http://www.thejournal.ie/border-controls-ireland-3018480-Oct2016/

Brexit Britain wants to move its tough border controls to Ireland

THE UK WILL look to have Ireland strengthen immigration controls at its ports and entry points to avoid the reintroduction of a ‘hard border’, according to The Guardian.

Speaking to the newspaper, the UK’s Northern Ireland Secretary James Brokenshire said that the UK government wants to maintain the common travel area (CTA) between Ireland and the UK in the wake of the Brexit vote.

It would mean, he argues, that external borders would need to be strengthened to avoid illegal migration into the UK.

These tougher measures at ports and entry points would include those in Ireland if the CTA is maintained. In effect, UK border control policies could be implemented at Irish entry points.

“We have put in place a range of measures to further combat illegal migration working closely with the Irish government,” Brokenshire said according to the newspaper.

Our focus is to strengthen the external border of the common travel area, building on the strong collaboration with our Irish partners.

The toughening of controls at Ireland’s entry points would be used as a way to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. People on both sides of the border have expressed concerns about this possibility for both economic and stability reasons.

“We are already working closely with the Irish government and other members of the common travel area to prevent people from seeking to evade UK immigration controls from entering via another part of the CTA,” Brokenshire said.

Irish Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan is quoted in the article as saying that the sharing of intelligence between Ireland and the UK is vital to counter “the threat of illegal immigration through the border.”
...

That would automatically lead to a tougher border control on the side of the Republic of Ireland and from what I´ve read for months now, such measures would be rather welcome by not less Irish People in regards of illigal immigration to the Republic.

bleg

Thomas_... wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/border-controls-ireland-3018480-Oct2016/



That would automatically lead to a tougher border control on the side of the Republic of Ireland and from what I´ve read for months now, such measures would be rather welcome by not less Irish People in regards of illigal immigration to the Republic.

Not welcome by me. We should join Schengen!

Thomas_...

bleg wrote: »

Not welcome by me. We should join Schengen!

That would mean to have real border controls at the border between the Republic and NI.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-37602445

Brexit: Hard border 'would devastate communities'

Introducing a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland as a result of Brexit would have a devastating effect on border communities, a think tank has said.

The Centre for Cross Border Studies is hosting a discussion in Brussels later to discuss the Brexit vote.

Anthony Soares, the centre's deputy director, said border controls would set communities back decades.
...

Thomas_...

More preditions on Brexit effects:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37605642

Retailers warn government of Brexit price rises

The British Retail Consortium (BRC) has warned that using World Trade Organization (WTO) rules will mean higher prices in the shops.

In a letter to the trade secretary, the BRC warns reverting to WTO rules would see tariffs on clothes from Bangladesh of 12% and those on meat of up to 27%.
...

Sounds just logical to me.

wes

Thomas_... wrote: »

More preditions on Brexit effects:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37605642



Sounds just logical to me.

Its what the people voted for. No less than they deserve.

Bob24

Schengen is on the verge of collapsing as a border-free travel area ("temporary" borders within the Schengen Area have been becoming more numerous and less temporary ever since Merkel decided to stop applying the Dublin agreement rules), so I don't think Ireland should even contemplate joining it at the moment (not even mentioning the NI border issue, which is an extra challenge for joining it).

Having said that while better border checks could be welcome from my end (ID check at Dublin Airport is for example shockingly lenient for EU citizens, sometimes if they see what looks like an Irish/EU passport or ID card they don't even look at the picture on the document), I think we there will be many sources for friction being part of the CTA with a UK which is outside of the EU and looking at beefing-up border checks.

For example the UK might want additional background checks for EU citizens crossing the borders of the CTA (are they a tourist or a resident, where do they live, do the have a British residence document, etc), and even if it was willing to cooperate Ireland would probably not be legally allowed to consistently subject EU citizens to this type of background check as it is an EU member and free movement directives are specifically banning them.

Thomas_...

Bob24 wrote: »

Schengen is on the verge of collapsing as a border-free travel area ("temporary" borders within the Schengen Area have been becoming more numerous and less temporary ever since Merkel decided to stop applying the Dublin agreement rules), so I don't think Ireland should even contemplate joining it at the moment (not even mentioning the NI border issue, which is an extra challenge for joining it).

Having said that while better border checks could be welcome from my end (ID check at Dublin Airport is for example shockingly lenient for EU citizens, sometimes if they see what looks like an Irish/EU passport or ID card they don't even look at the picture on the document), I think we there will be many sources for friction being part of the CTA with a UK which is outside of the EU and looking at beefing-up border checks.

For example the UK might want additional background checks for EU citizens crossing the borders of the CTA (are they a tourist or a resident, where do they live, do the have a British residence document, etc), and even if it was willing to cooperate Ireland would probably not be legally allowed to consistently subject EU citizens to this type of background check as it is an EU member and free movement directives are specifically banning them.

That´s what I call a reality check. Spot on.

Bob24

Thomas_... wrote: »

That´s what I call a reality check. Spot on.

I think the CTA and the NI border will need to be a discussion topic as part of the Brexit negotiations with the EC. The UK obviously can't ignore it as it is directly affected, but the EC can't ignore it tell the UK "it is your problem" either, as one EU member will also be directly and deeply affected.

Thomas_...

Bob24 wrote: »

I think the CTA and the NI border will need to be a discussion topic as part of the Brexit negotiations with the EC. The UK obviously can't ignore it as it is directly affected, but the EC can't ignore it tell the UK "it is your problem" either, as one EU member will also be directly and deeply affected.

I see it that way too and this will be one subject among various ones.

Sam Russell

I think that the UK will have to introduce ID cards for all their citizens and legal residents and encourage Ireland to do the same (maybe contribute to the cost).

If they did that, they could have a simple ID check for those entering GB by ferry, or airport which would apply to all travellers. NI residents would need ID as would residents of Manchester. No contros of people would be needed between NI and Ireland - merely an ID check for those deemed to come to the attention of the authorities for whatever reason.

Residents of Ireland would continue to be CTA residents (and not 'foreign') and so would not be restricted. Other EU residents 'might' be subject to scrutiny, but only if applying for residence, tax number, or social welfare benefits.

This would also identify all those illegals within the UK that they so dislike. It would make it pointless for those currently trying to get to the UK illegally as they would not be able to work or get benefits.

Peregrinus

Bob24 wrote: »

. . . For example the UK might want additional background checks for EU citizens crossing the borders of the CTA (are they a tourist or a resident, where do they live, do the have a British residence document, etc), and even if it was willing to cooperate Ireland would probably not be legally allowed to consistently subject EU citizens to this type of background check as it is an EU member and free movement directives are specifically banning them.

A huge amount is going to depend on exactly what terms the UK applies to EU citizens entering the UK. Obviously the whole point - or one of the points - is to allow them to apply whatever terms they want, but it doesn't follow that they will want to apply restrictive terms. In fact they probably won't; they'll want UK citizens to be free to enter the EU with minimum formalities, and obviously to get they they'll have to allow EU citizens easy entry to the UK - probably visa-free entry. There might (or might not) be restrictions on EU citizens working in the UK, or settling there, but not on simply entering. If that's the deal, then maintenance of the UK/Irl CTA should be doable. However if the UK is going to impose border controls on EU citizens, then the CTA is probably unfeasible.

Peregrinus

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that the UK will have to introduce ID cards for all their citizens . . .

I can't see that going down too well with Brexit supporters.

Zubeneschamali

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that the UK will have to introduce ID cards for all their citizens

Papieren bitte.

Bob24

Peregrinus wrote: »

A huge amount is going to depend on exactly what terms the UK applies to EU citizens entering the UK. Obviously the whole point - or one of the points - is to allow them to apply whatever terms they want, but it doesn't follow that they will want to apply restrictive terms. In fact they probably won't; they'll want UK citizens to be free to enter the EU with minimum formalities, and obviously to get they they'll have to allow EU citizens easy entry to the UK - probably visa-free entry. There might (or might not) be restrictions on EU citizens working in the UK, or settling there, but not on simply entering. If that's the deal, then maintenance of the UK/Irl CTA should be doable. However if the UK is going to impose border controls on EU citizens, then the CTA is probably unfeasible.

Broadly I agree but this could cause technical challenges.

I have no doubt the UK will allow EU citizens to visit the country without a visa for business trips or leisure, but if they go for the so-call hard brexit option it wouldn't be a surprise if, for example, they started requesting EU citizens living in the UK to hold a some type of residence card and to present it when they enter the CTA.
Ireland would be in a tricky situation as I doubt we could legally request EU citizens entering Ireland (and EU country) to produce documents issued by a third party country.

The CTA has been broken form the start (it is a common travel are without common visas en entry rules) but having one country in the EU and the other one out will exacerbate the issues. I think they can be fixed, but this requires good thinking and a certain level of good will from all parties involved.

Thomas_...

Peregrinus wrote: »

I can't see that going down too well with Brexit supporters.

Hehe, they´re all in this together, if it will come to that.

Peregrinus

The thing is, if you allow visa-free entry for tourist, recreational, business, etc purposes, while you can impose a requirement for a permit for long-term residence, you can't really police that requirement through border controls. People can easily evade the border controls by saying that they are entering for tourist, etc, purposes. An EU citizen wishing to enter the UK and reside there without a permit could enter directly from France to Britain, claiming to be coming for a visit. You have this problem whether or not you have a CTA with Ireland; consequently having a CTA with Ireland doesn't make your situation any worse.

Bob24

Peregrinus wrote: »

The thing is, if you allow visa-free entry for tourist, recreational, business, etc purposes, while you can impose a requirement for a permit for long-term residence, you can't really police that requirement through border controls. People can easily evade the border controls by saying that they are entering for tourist, etc, purposes. An EU citizen wishing to enter the UK and reside there without a permit could enter directly from France to Britain, claiming to be coming for a visit. You have this problem whether or not you have a CTA with Ireland; consequently having a CTA with Ireland doesn't make your situation any worse.

Yes it makes thinks more difficult to police but at the end of the day outside the EU this is what all countries are doing for foreign nationals.

For example the reason so-called undocumented Irish find themselves trapped in the US is that even though Irish citizens don't require a visa to go to the US, US authorities do require any non-nationals who enters or leave the country to present their documentation and records their passage - so that they can identify illegal residents and people who overstay their visa exemption period.

View

Bob24 wrote: »

I think the CTA and the NI border will need to be a discussion topic as part of the Brexit negotiations with the EC. The UK obviously can't ignore it as it is directly affected, but the EC can't ignore it tell the UK "it is your problem" either, as one EU member will also be directly and deeply affected.

Of course the EU can ignore it. It is not an EU problem if Ireland has to implement the Schengen provisions of the EU Treaty and establish border controls (in addition to customs controls) on our borders with the UK.

The other member states would probably be happy enough to give us some assistance out of the Schengen Border Fund if we ask but it is fundamentally up to us to implement the necessary provisions. There is absolutely no reason for the rest of the EU to get tied up in discussions about this.

Norway is currently building a border fence on its 200Km long Schengen border with Russia which involves them building a 2m fence in most places similar to what you'd see around many industrial sites. That rises to a more serious 3.5m one in a small number of areas deemed prone to illegal crossings. The rest of the EU/Schengen countries certainly aren't tying themselves up in discussions with Russia about it, rather it is up to Norway to police their border. Equally it'll be up to us to police our borders with the UK if the UK persists in its rush for the hardest of hard exits.

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

I can't see that going down too well with Brexit supporters.

Given that Brexit supporters give every impression that they want to return to a time when the UK could could run gunboats up the Seine, I can't see very much of anything at all going down very well with them.

Bob24

View wrote: »

Of course the EU can ignore it. It is not an EU problem if Ireland has to implement the Schengen provisions of the EU Treaty and establish border controls (in addition to customs controls) on our borders with the UK.

If it wants Ireland to start vetoing decisions that would be a good idea. But realistically when you are a political superstructure in charge of negotiating on behalf of several nation states, you can not completely ignore something which will deeply affect one of those states.

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

If it wants Ireland to start vetoing decisions that would be a good idea. But realistically when you are a political superstructure in charge of negotiating on behalf of several nation states, you can not completely ignore something which will deeply affect one of those states.

What is 'David Cameron's pre-Brexit EU Negotitations'?

Bob24

Deleted User wrote: »

What is 'David Cameron's pre-Brexit EU Negotitations'?

Not sure I get you. I didn't refer to 'David Cameron's pre-Brexit EU Negotitations' in my post and Cameron never negotiated on behalf of several nation states. Was that from me?

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

Not sure I get you. I didn't refer to 'David Cameron's pre-Brexit EU Negotitations' in my post. Was that from me?

I was playing Jeopardy a bit.

Bob24

Deleted User wrote: »

I was playing Jeopardy a bit.

Tell me more, I still don't see your point ...

I was referring to a political superstructure negotiating on behalf of several nation states.

Cameron was the elected leader of a single nation state and never negotiated on behalf of any other one.