Brexit Referendum Superthread

Walter2016

YouGov poll showing 26% of UK voters would vote for a stop brexit party if there was a choice.

Con on 34%
Lab on 19%
Ukip on 15%

Lemming

Walter2016 wrote: »

YouGov poll showing 26% of UK voters would vote for a stop brexit party if there was a choice.

Con on 34%
Lab on 19%
Ukip on 15%

That's just for Wales & England; inclusion of either Scotland and/or NI would push that 26% far, far higher.

BlitzKrieg

Lemming wrote: »

That's just for Wales & England; inclusion of either Scotland and/or NI would push that 26% far, far higher.

they have their anti brexit parties though.

I dont know about northern ireland, but the SNP will maintain their majority. If there is any suffering it might be some labour and conservative voters in scotland jumping to lib dems but I imagine the only reason to jump to lib dems over snp is really the issue of independence and I actually dont know the lib dem position on it in scotland.


As for the north. Is there a unionist party opposed to brexit? Its hard to see local politics being trumped by european politics.

FrancieBrady

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

they have their anti brexit parties though.

I dont know about northern ireland, but the SNP will maintain their majority. If there is any suffering it might be some labour and conservative voters in scotland jumping to lib dems but I imagine the only reason to jump to lib dems over snp is really the issue of independence and I actually dont know the lib dem position on it in scotland.


As for the north. Is there a unionist party opposed to brexit? Its hard to see local politics being trumped by european politics.

UUP were for Remain. Nesbitt reckons Brexit is the beginning of the end of the UK.
I personally think the beginning was much earlier.

BlitzKrieg

FrancieBrady wrote: »

UUP were for Remain. Nesbitt reckons Brexit is the beginning of the end of the UK.
I personally think the beginning was much earlier.

yeah I checked. The Alliance party would be more in line with lib dems and they are opposed to brexit too.

In fact isnt the DUP the only pro brexit party in northern ireland?

alastair

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

yeah I checked. The Alliance party would be more in line with lib dems and they are opposed to brexit too.

In fact isnt the DUP the only pro brexit party in northern ireland?

Jim Allister's crowd (TUV) are pro Brexit too.

Thomas_...

An example how Brexit affects People who are not Born in the UK but grew up there:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37717382

Young, Polish and pondering a Brexit future
Born in Poland, brought up in Britain - how do the younger generation of Poles here feel Brexit will affect their future?
Natalia, who is 17, describes her parents as "typical" Polish migrants - her father works as a builder, her mother as a nanny. They moved here when she was a baby.
They have had to teach themselves English and haven't settled into British culture as thoroughly as she has, entirely educated in Britain.
Now, with reports of hate crimes against Poles, they worry about her and they are talking about going "home".
They have warned her not to speak Polish in public places and they are concerned if she goes out alone wearing her distinctive Polish scout uniform.

Natalia's not worried. "I've been here my whole life," she told me. "I feel at home here, I feel perfectly happy and fine, I've never had any problems in school before or after the Brexit vote."
...

Talking in another language than English seems to put people in danger and that s what I really call a Fascist attitude.

I wonder how that is for tourists when they speak in their native tongue among themselves?

Peregrinus

Thomas_... wrote: »

I wonder how that is for tourists when they speak in their native tongue among themselves?

My cousin and her daughter were abused for speaking Flemish in public in Belfast.

(Admittedly, that was by someone who thought they were speaking Irish.)

Thomas_...

Peregrinus wrote: »

Thomas_... wrote: »

I wonder how that is for tourists when they speak in their native tongue among themselves?

My cousin and her daughter were abused for speaking Flemish in public in Belfast.

(Admittedly, that was by someone who thought they were speaking Irish.)

There seems to be a peak time for the bigots in various parts of the UK and if this trend continues, the UK society is moving from a free and liberal into a intolerant and oppressive one. That s all the making of the UKIP and their anti-immigrant propaganda. But the worst of it, it appears that more People have fallen for it than one had thought.

Yesterday, on the German TV channel Phoenix there was the usual history debate program. Among those who took part in the discussion was an Englishman, I presume a Journalist, who stated that the UK has to face the Desaster of the Brexit like German had to face that of her Nazi era. That sentence was spoken by that man in regards of the Brexit and the UK's relationship not just with Germany, but with Europe as well. He was in favour of a hard Brexit and as I understand it, he didn't say that because that man is a Brexiter, but for the very reason he stated and that means that the UK Needs to be taught a lesson, like Germany received by her defeat when it was a Nazi state.

I just pity those who are going to suffer under this increased nationalist mood that was brought with the Brexit campaign.

There was and maybe still is a possibility for me to visit the UK despite their Brexit hysteria, but if such things continue and one won't be safe there as a tourist, I think that I have to turn my back on the UK as a holiday destination for a long time.

The Polish are in my view just one example for a group that the bigots in the UK have picked, but I would not assume that other nationalities are excluded from their hatred towards every foreigner whatsoever, where one comes from and whether one is a tourist or a resident.

Peregrinus

I have to say, comparing the Brexit vote to the Nazi era is . . . a bit over the top.

As for the UK as a holiday destination, if sterling remains where it is it should over excellent value! And there are large parts of the UK - most notably Scotland and London, both well worth visiting - where pro-Brexit sentiment is weak.

Thomas_...

Peregrinus wrote: »

I have to say, comparing the Brexit vote to the Nazi era is . . . a bit over the top.

As for the UK as a holiday destination, if sterling remains where it is it should over excellent value! And there are large parts of the UK - most notably Scotland and London, both well worth visiting - where pro-Brexit sentiment is weak.

Well, I was just telling what this Englishman said himself, not necessarilly agreeing with him. From my childhood onwards, due to my late Grandmother who lived in Northern England, I've been to England for various and several times in my live, also to Southern England as well as London. I've made my different experiences there when on holiday and they were mixed, some good some bad ones too.

That there has always been some negative attitude towards foreigners by the English, sometimes more below and sometimes more above the surface is no secret and this increasing nationalism since more far-right and right-wing parties got hold and support from within the British Society might have already pathed the way towards a development where comparisons like that of the Englishman in that round of journalists might come even closer to a certain reality. This negative mood towards foreign nationals will certainly also affect holiday makers from abroad, whether the is weak and invites for a cheap holiday or not may come second when people get a feeling that they might not feel secure anymore by such increas of hate incidents and abuse towards foreign nationals.

Sam Russell

After the second world war, Poles were looked on favourably because of the enormous contribution they made fighting for Britain against the Third Reich. They flew bombers and spitfires and many were killed. Most stayed on after the way and settled there, and were treated with honour for what they had done and helped achieve.

marienbad

Sam Russell wrote: »

After the second world war, Poles were looked on favourably because of the enormous contribution they made fighting for Britain against the Third Reich. They flew bombers and spitfires and many were killed. Most stayed on after the way and settled there, and were treated with honour for what they had done and helped achieve.

and captured the first Enigma machine I believe

Thomas_...

Sam Russell wrote: »

After the second world war, Poles were looked on favourably because of the enormous contribution they made fighting for Britain against the Third Reich. They flew bombers and spitfires and many were killed. Most stayed on after the way and settled there, and were treated with honour for what they had done and helped achieve.

That seems to be all long forgotten and in the minds of many (Brexiteers) Brits, they do believe that they won WWII on their own and like to forget about the other allies the UK had, like the Russians, Americans and volunteers from almost every European country the Nazis occupied at that time, less to say about the volunteers from the Commonwealth Nations.

swampgas

marienbad wrote: »

and captured the first Enigma machine I believe

The Poles cracked enigma without actually having access to one. They used a mathematical approach (very new in cryptography at the time) and developed a lot of techniques which were handed to the British, giving them a crucial head start in their own efforts to crack it.

A statue commemorating the Polish contribution was installed at Bletchley Park a few years back: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-14141406

The key sentence in that BBC article: "Yet the contribution of the three Poles is not widely recognised." - although the staff there do their best to raise the awareness level.

Sam Russell

The Poles deserve a lot better than racist jibes from the British. Not only did they help the war effort, they managed by their stoic resistance to Russian (Soviet) oppression to liberate not only Poland but also the whole Eastern European area from Soviet control and ultimately the fall of the Soviet Union.

They deserve better than the misguided contempt of ignorant British racists.

demfad

Sam Russell wrote: »

After the second world war, Poles were looked on favourably because of the enormous contribution they made fighting for Britain against the Third Reich. They flew bombers and spitfires and many were killed. Most stayed on after the way and settled there, and were treated with honour for what they had done and helped achieve.

My uncle in Laws father was held as a prisoner of war in England after the war due to being a Polish freedom fighter. This was an agreement between Churchill and Stalin as Stalin knew he would have to fight them himself in Poland. My uncle in Law died in England (de facto a prisoner).
His son and daughter had made Ireland in the 50's. Their father requested not to be buried in England and he is now buried (with his son) in a graveyard in Meath. His son's admiration for England (like his fathers) was as high as his admiration for the Third Reich or Stalin. Not high.
Any fighters in the Polish free army were not looked on favourably by Britain. If you survived the British betrayal in Warsaw then you were destined to be a prisoner of war if you reached the UK.

marienbad

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Poles deserve a lot better than racist jibes from the British. Not only did they help the war effort, they managed by their stoic resistance to Russian (Soviet) oppression to liberate not only Poland but also the whole Eastern European area from Soviet control and ultimately the fall of the Soviet Union.

They deserve better than the misguided contempt of ignorant British racists.

and not forgetting John Sobieski and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

Great Europeans and undeserving of anyone's insults and contempt

Sam Russell

demfad wrote: »

My uncle in Laws father was held as a prisoner of war in England after the war due to being a Polish freedom fighter. This was an agreement between Churchill and Stalin as Stalin knew he would have to fight them himself in Poland. My uncle in Law died in England (de facto a prisoner).
His son and daughter had made Ireland in the 50's. Their father requested not to be buried in England and he is now buried (with his son) in a graveyard in Meath. His son's admiration for England was as high as his admiration for the Third Reich or Stalin.
Any fighters in the Polish free army were not looked on favourably by Britain. If you survived the British betrayal in Warsaw then you were destined to be a prisoner of war if you reached the UK.

Churchill was another British racist who hated the Irish, and Catholics - not sure which he hated most.

Thomas_...

Sam Russell wrote: »

demfad wrote: »

My uncle in Laws father was held as a prisoner of war in England after the war due to being a Polish freedom fighter. This was an agreement between Churchill and Stalin as Stalin knew he would have to fight them himself in Poland. My uncle in Law died in England (de facto a prisoner).
His son and daughter had made Ireland in the 50's. Their father requested not to be buried in England and he is now buried (with his son) in a graveyard in Meath. His son's admiration for England was as high as his admiration for the Third Reich or Stalin.
Any fighters in the Polish free army were not looked on favourably by Britain. If you survived the British betrayal in Warsaw then you were destined to be a prisoner of war if you reached the UK.

Churchill was another British racist who hated the Irish, and Catholics - not sure which he hated most.

The Fenians, yes, but the Irish in general? I haven't come across any such specific remark by himself in many things I've read about and by himself, but of course, in such a long life as he has lived, things and remarks changed.

Sam Russell

Thomas_... wrote: »

The Fenians, yes, but the Irish in general? I haven't come across any such specific remark by himself in many things I've read about and by himself, but of course, in such a long life as he has lived, things and remarks changed.

Look at his speech that followed the end of the 2nd World War wrt the position of Ireland, and in particular the refusal to allow the British Navy access the ports. Then listen to Dev's response. I am no fan of Dev but I am no fan of Churchill either - not sure which I despise more.

Thomas_...

Sam Russell wrote: »

Thomas_... wrote: »

The Fenians, yes, but the Irish in general? I haven't come across any such specific remark by himself in many things I've read about and by himself, but of course, in such a long life as he has lived, things and remarks changed.

Look at his speech that followed the end of the 2nd World War wrt the position of Ireland, and in particular the refusal to allow the British Navy access the ports. Then listen to Dev's response. I am no fan of Dev but I am no fan of Churchill either - not sure which I despise more.

I know that speech and it was the bitterness speaking out of Churchill, aimed at Dev in particular, but phrased in general terms as well. Either way, for Ireland it was much better to stay out of WWII and right, Churchill had rather loved to use the Irish ports for the war effort but that had dragged Ireland into WWII.

Racism at the time when Churchill lived was, like it or not, a real commonplace in many countries. So, Churchill wasn't the only one. But he managed to forge an alliance to beat the worst racists which were the Nazis.

djpbarry

Thomas_... wrote: »

There seems to be a peak time for the bigots in various parts of the UK and if this trend continues, the UK society is moving from a free and liberal into a intolerant and oppressive one. That s all the making of the UKIP and their anti-immigrant propaganda. But the worst of it, it appears that more People have fallen for it than one had thought.

There was plenty of anti-immigrant sentiment in the UK long before UKIP’s rise to prominence – all Farage and Co. have done is make racism and xenophobia socially acceptable again.

demfad

Thomas_... wrote: »

I know that speech and it was the bitterness speaking out of Churchill, aimed at Dev in particular, but phrased in general terms as well. Either way, for Ireland it was much better to stay out of WWII and right, Churchill had rather loved to use the Irish ports for the war effort but that had dragged Ireland into WWII.

Racism at the time when Churchill lived was, like it or not, a real commonplace in many countries. So, Churchill wasn't the only one. But he managed to forge an alliance to beat the worst racists which were the Nazis.

Churchill was particularly hateful of Indians.

This was his reaction after the Bengali famine which he had been accused of
being responsible for.

“I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.” -Winston Churchill

Infact India has been subjected to sveral sever famines since imperial 'management' (East India Company) took over tax collection for Revenue. The worst in 1770 accounted for 10-14 million lives where instead of relief measures being introduced, taxes were increased to offset the lower revenue....

This is getting away from Brexit...but there is a still existing nasty anti-foreigner attitude in ruling Tory minds which does feed into the general population. There was a bit of this in the LEAVE vote.

FrancieBrady

I cannot understand how NI, Scotland and Wales can accept being held at arms length from Brexit negotiations.
Or what the reasoning is. Anyone know if it is some sort of official way of doing this kind of business?

FrancieBrady

djpbarry wrote: »

There was plenty of anti-immigrant sentiment in the UK long before UKIP’s rise to prominence – all Farage and Co. have done is make racism and xenophobia socially acceptable again.

When you look at how they have rounded on Lineker (for a fairly mild humanitarian comment in fairness) and others, it is hard to know how it is going to be put back in it's box.
It exists in boxes in most countries (including Ireland) but now in the UK you have a party stoking it, while keeping the dirt of their hands, just like Hitler and Goebbels did at the beginning (kept the blood of their hands while the pogroms went on around them) of Germany's descent into depravity.

*Awaits the tired Godwin comments. The 90's wants them back before anyone thinks it is witty.

ancapailldorcha

Peregrinus wrote: »

I have to say, comparing the Brexit vote to the Nazi era is . . . a bit over the top.

As for the UK as a holiday destination, if sterling remains where it is it should over excellent value! And there are large parts of the UK - most notably Scotland and London, both well worth visiting - where pro-Brexit sentiment is weak.

To be honest, I'd argue that Brighton and London are always worth a trip over. Not to mention the South Downs!!

Sam Russell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

To be honest, I'd argue that Brighton and London are always worth a trip over. Not to mention the South Downs!!

When there was talk of Scottish Assembly, there was talk of 'The West Lothian Question'. The response of the Tory MPs was to try to make questions that refer to England to be only voted on by English Constituency MPs. In other words, the UK Parliament would be sub-divided into a special division consisted of English Constituency MPs who would act as an English Assembly. Bizarre.

If there was to be an English Assembly it should separate from Westminster and ought to be based in Manchester, certainly not Westminster.

The arrogance of them is beyond belief.

Thomas_...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37747995

Sturgeon tells May she's 'not bluffing' over Referendum

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has warned Theresa May she is not "bluffing" over her promise to hold an independence referendum if Scotland's vote against Brexit is "not respected".
After talks in Downing Street, she said she was not prepared to see "Scotland driven off a hard Brexit cliff-edge".
...

I do believe that Mrs Sturgeon means business, but that doesn't impress our fellow poster Iwasfrozen as his often used phrase is "Scotland won't go anywhere". But I wish Mrs Sturgeon godspeed and I hope that she will succeed and thus prove the other fella wrong.

From all other representatives of the UK, Mrs Sturgeon appears to be only wone who has the guts to stand up against Mrs May.

Thomas_...

Sam Russell wrote: »

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

To be honest, I'd argue that Brighton and London are always worth a trip over. Not to mention the South Downs!!

When there was talk of Scottish Assembly, there was talk of 'The West Lothian Question'. The response of the Tory MPs was to try to make questions that refer to England to be only voted on by English Constituency MPs. In other words, the UK Parliament would be sub-divided into a special division consisted of English Constituency MPs who would act as an English Assembly. Bizarre.

If there was to be an English Assembly it should separate from Westminster and ought to be based in Manchester, certainly not Westminster.

The arrogance of them is beyond belief.

I was always in favour of giving the English their own parliament apart from Westminster on the same Basis on which the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh and the Northern Irish Assemblies are set up. With a prospect of having another Scottish Independence Referendum that might result in a majority in favour of Independence, the English can take that chance and have their own parliament and Westminster would be then the parliament of the rest of the UK.

Your idea of placing an English parliament in Manchester doesn't make sense to me for such an Institution has to be placed in London as this is the capital of England as well.