Brexit Referendum Superthread

alastair

alastair wrote: »

She was. Just by a very small number of people.

Didn't Leadsom simply resign exit the race? May won by default?

Thomas_...

Deleted User wrote: »

alastair wrote: »

She was. Just by a very small number of people.

Didn't Leadsom simply resign exit the race? May won by default?

Who knows what exactly went on behind closed doors within the Tory Party. Mrs May is the most unattractive female politicians I've ever seen, next to Merkel, and I mean that intellectually and also by appearance. I could also put it more shorter, they are both ugly and so are their policies.

alastair

Deleted User wrote: »

Didn't Leadsom simply resign exit the race? May won by default?

After a first round of votes.

edit - and a second.

alastair

alastair wrote: »

After a first round of votes.

edit - and a second.

Both votes to be a candidate in the race to become the PM, not to actually be the PM. Final vote was never taken.

Trump won the race to be the Republican candidate, if for any reason the final vote didn't go ahead and Trump was only remaining candidate for US President you could hardly claim he was elected so.

solodeogloria

Good afternoon,

A few clarifications.

1) Theresa May was elected by the Tory party in a leadership contest. That's what I was referring to. Apologies for being unclear.

2) On the EU Commission I looked up on the European Commission website. The member states don't elect the commissioners. Rather they suggest proposals to the Commission. The president of the Commission selects the other 27. In any case the EU Parliament can't initiate legislation. That's also from the European Union website. Given that most of the legislation would be prepared by others in the Commission it still seems fair to refer to it as technocracy.

3) When I said the EU wasn't working. It wasn't working for Britain and Britain's membership wasn't working for the EU. The EU works well with countries that accept technocracy easily or have some other way to benefit from it. For example I don't support Ireland's withdrawal from the EU, even though I think closer integration could hurt Ireland in some ways. (corporate tax and common European defence measures)

4) Finally in response to the suggestion that I'm a Brexiteer. I reluctantly voted remain in the referendum with the hope of further reform. I now think that Theresa May needs to take Britain out of the EU as a result of that vote. I also think she's right to regard freedom of movement and sovereignty over law as red lines due to how prominently they featured in the campaign.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

djpbarry

Thomas_... wrote: »

You are speaking in general terms and what I was on about is the simply abuse to people of different nationality and dictating them the language to use when taling among themselves and frankly, that is a no-go attitude in my opinion.

The point is that saying "Hey, you can't do that" doesn't solve anything. The individuals in question have the right to hold their opinions, whether you agree with them or not, but it is important that their opinions are challenged and that can't happen if they feel that their opinions can't be expressed.

I'm obviously not suggesting that such opinions should be expressed in the form of abusive comments directed at others, but people's concerns about immigration, no matter how misguided or irrational they may be, need to be listened to and addressed with rational debate. You'll always find people whose minds are not for changing, no matter how much evidence you present them with, but a lot of people will listen to reason and accept that perhaps they were mistaken.

ambro25

djpbarry wrote: »

The point is that saying "Hey, you can't do that" doesn't solve anything. The individuals in question have the right to hold their opinions, whether you agree with them or not, but it is important that their opinions are challenged and that can't happen if they feel that their opinions can't be expressed.

I'm obviously not suggesting that such opinions should be expressed in the form of abusive comments directed at others, but people's concerns about immigration, no matter how misguided or irrational they may be, need to be listened to and addressed with rational debate. You'll always find people whose minds are not for changing, no matter how much evidence you present them with, but a lot of people will listen to reason and accept that perhaps they were mistaken.

Few of those ready and willing to voice such opinions to EU nationals' faces, per the BBC anecdote relayed by the BBC story quoted by Thomas, do. And a 41% rise in hate crimes post-Brexit is starting to make for an awful lot of anecdotes.

This isn't a jibe or attack on your last 2 posts, the sentiment of which I fully admire and agree with. But this feeling of growing xenophobia (and the odd instance of covert or overt manifestation of it), is now a daily reality for a very high number of EU immigrants. The media, and the unchecked polarisation of free-for-all social media platforms like Facebook, is not helping, because the inevitable sensationalising when reporting these hate crimes contributes as much to their growth as to the perception of that growth, in some sort of vicious self-fulfilling prophecy.

When put in the context of the similarly-rising anti-intellectualism and political mouthpieces pandering ever more to the populist element at the root of both phenomena, it all makes for a distinctly 'changed' environment in a very short timeframe, and a growing sense of unease and insecurity, so much literally (physical) as relative (situation, job, <etc.>).

Personally speaking I]I'm an EU migrant, and have been living mostly in the UK (1994-1996, 1997-2004, 2008-current) and Ireland (2004-2008) over the past 26 years[/I, had May's government quelled the matter early, clearly and plainly, and had it been handling the Brexit vote aftermath sensibly, instead of letting Rudd play loudly with her 'lists' and Fox equally loudly with his 'main cards' and tanking the country's economy, I'd have been happy to let Brexit slide and adopt a wait and see approach.

As it is, I now feel sufficiently unsafe on all sorts of levels to have 'redeployed' all my UK investments abroad, and I'm busy readying my professional situation and family into as much of a "go-bag situation" as I can. We're not waiting to formally become 2nd class citizens, and erstwhile politicians-designated socio-economic punching bags. Because at the rate things are going, that's next, particularly once the Article 50 negotiations begin and the EU gets demonised like never before in popular mass media for not letting the UK having its cake and eating it.

Bob24

ambro25 wrote: »

We're not waiting to formally become 2nd class citizens, and erstwhile politicians-designated socio-economic punching bags. Because at the rate things are going, that's next, particularly once the Article 50 negotiations begin and the EU gets demonised like never before in popular mass media for not letting the UK having its cake and eating it.

What do you mean by formally 2nd class citizen? Surely with the time you have spent there and assuming you were working most of the time you can apply for British citizenship and be treated the same as any other Brit after Brexit?

ambro25

Bob24 wrote: »

What do you mean by formally 2nd class citizen? Surely with the time you have spent their you can apply for British citizenship?

Why would I want to do that?

Bob24

ambro25 wrote: »

Why would I want to do that?

Well you said you are afraid of becoming a "second class citizen". If the option is open to you to clearly become a full-fledged citizen, why not going for it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37801847

Supermarket chain Morrisons has increased the cost of a jar of Marmite by 12.5%, say retail industry experts.

currency devaluation => increased cost of living for all

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

Well you said you are afraid of becoming a "second class citizen". If the option is open to you to clearly become a full-fledged citizen, why not going for it?

I suspect he, like myself, resents having to shell out over £1,200 to retain the same status he had before referendum.

FrancieBrady

Bob24 wrote: »

Well you said you are afraid of becoming a "second class citizen". If the option is open to you to clearly become a full-fledged citizen, why not going for it?

Is he then expected to walk around with a sign saying, 'I am a British citizen'.

I'm not seeing how becoming one will solve the problems he is seeing,

ambro25

Bob24 wrote: »

Well you said you are afraid of becoming a "second class citizen".

I'm not 'afraid' of becoming a "second class citizen": I'm already that de facto, since June 24.

In Fox's own words, I am a "main card" in forthcoming Article 50 negotiations. A saving grace, I suppose, is that so are British citizens established in the EU...with the supreme irony being that those Brits longest established in the EU were likely deprived from the right to vote last June 23.

I am simply uninterested in waiting until that de facto situation gets formalised come March 2019 (or sooner or later).

Bob24 wrote: »

If the option is open to you to clearly become a full-fledged citizen, why not going for it?

The option is open indeed, but both my principles and the UK government's continual fudging of 'what after Brexit' prevent me from doing so.

Besides the financial reason explained by ancapailldorcha above, I was not born British, I have no particular affinity with this country and the nationality other than working and living there (and paying copious amounts of tax for the privilege), and no one knows how the EU and, within it, each of the EU27, will reciprocally handle/accommodate British nationals.

Put it that way: I don't need to become a Brit to continue enjoying a good standard of living elsewhere, I' m lucky to have gained very high value skills that are readily transferrable and in constant high demand anywhere in the 1st world...and the combination of Breton and Sicilian genes (yes, really) gives me this nasty, stubbornly vengeful mindset, under which I'd sooner die than buy the right to continue living and working here.

EDIT: @ ancapailldorcha - believe it or not, still got your PM of way-back-when, and will reply to it ASAP, if still of interest.

Bob24

ambro25 wrote: »

Besides the financial reason explained by ancapailldorcha above, I was not born British, I have no particular affinity with this country and the nationality other than working and living there (and paying copious amounts of tax for the privilege), and no one knows how the EU and, within it, each of the EU27, will reciprocally handle/accommodate British nationals.

Put it that way: I don't need to become a Brit to continue enjoying a good standard of living elsewhere, I' m lucky to have gained very high value skills that are readily transferrable and in constant high demand anywhere in the 1st world...and the combination of Breton and Sicilian genes (yes, really) gives me this nasty, stubbornly vengeful mindset, under which I'd sooner die than buy the right to continue living and working here.

You know what I am going to say then?

If you don't want to be a citizen you can't blame the country for not treating you like one. Of course it's your choice and you are being honest about how you feel (or not) about the place. But it is also the Brit's choice to treat whoever is not a citizen and not interested in becoming one differently from someone who is one (it is very normal for non-nationals to be treated differently in any country and Brexit doesn't change that).

Bob24

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is he then expected to walk around with a sign saying, 'I am a British citizen'.

I'm not seeing how becoming one will solve the problems he is seeing,

ambro25 said they doesn't want to formally become a second class citizen. I assume this mostly refers to possible restrictions of free movement and the possibility of having to seek a residence/work permit (ambro25 correct me if I am wrong). Becoming a British citizen would definitely address that.

Bob24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I suspect he, like myself, resents having to shell out over £1,200 to retain the same status he had before referendum.

I understand people are not happy about having to pay it, though objectively for people who say they "have gained very high value skills that are readily transferable" this should be a small amount of money for something you can keep for life (I am talking about something I know as I have myself paid a similar amount to become Irish). But having said that there is a contradiction in at the same time not taking an open option to become a citizen and complaining about potentially being treated as a second class citizen (which is more a non-citizen than a second-class citizen and is common practice in any country even though the EU restricts some of those differences of treatment).

ambro25

Bob24 wrote: »

You know what I am going to say then?

I had a feeling you would, based on your earlier posts

Bob24 wrote: »

If you don't want to be a citizen you can't blame the country for not treating you like one. Of course it's your choice and you are being honest about how you feel (or not) about the place. But it is also the Brit's choice to treat whoever is not a citizen and not interested in becoming one differently from someone who is one (it is very normal for non-nationals to be treated differently in any country).

If you obviate the fundamental shift which the UK leaving the EU introduces in the above, relative to the situation for the past 40 years, yes. But then...

I'm not blaming the country at all. Just Leavers. And rest assured it won't be for long: I'm feeling better already just talking about it

Bob24 wrote: »

ambro25 said they doesn't want to formally become a second class citizen. I assume this mostly refers to possible restrictions of free movement and the possibility of having to seek a residence/work permit (ambro25 View Post correct me if I am wrong). Becoming a British citizen would definitely address that.

It is that in part indeed, but more beside, particularly the risk of losing my first nationality by 'legal ricochet' under the risk of the UK repealing the Second Protocol to the Strasbourg Convention of 1963 (which, considering the current "immigration is a red line" rethoric of May & Co, I would rate as a real risk, for now low to medium). Pays your £1,200, gets your Brit stamp, and then lose your original nationality for free, possibly irremediably so. Bit of a kick in the nuts, wouldn't you say?

Same kind of 'legal ricochet' under which, speaking professionally now, UK-based attorneys will lose their right of audience at the EU Intellectual Property Office come March 2019, and effectively abandon the whole UK-originating EU trademark and design-filing workload/business to the competition in the EU27 (I expect to France and Germany mostly, with crumbs for Ireland). Unless the UK firms that can, open a subsidiary somewhere in the EU27. The EU wins either way

There's way more where that one came from, which neither Leavers nor May and her Ministers have the foggiest about yet.

K-9

Thomas_... wrote: »

After having read a couple of posts from this chap, it became clear to me that he's just another Brexiter and decided to decline from further readings of his opinions, cos all he does is just repeating some sort of Farage Propaganda and that part in his post which I have set in bold proves my point.

Mod:
Keep it civil please. The poster said they voted reluctantly for remain which seems fair enough and consistent.

alastair

solodeogloria wrote: »

On the EU Commission I looked up on the European Commission website. The member states don't elect the commissioners. Rather they suggest proposals to the Commission. The president of the Commission selects the other 27.

Eh? The national governments nominate appointees for the Commission, and the EU Parliaments vets those nominees. If there's a problem with the first nominee, then the national government in question nominates a second choice. The President of the Commission doesn't appoint any of them, but decides which portfolios they hold.

solodeogloria wrote: »

In any case the EU Parliament can't initiate legislation. That's also from the European Union website. Given that most of the legislation would be prepared by others in the Commission it still seems fair to refer to it as technocracy.

The EU Parliament has the right to initiate/forward legislation requests to the Commission, and the Commission is obliged to respond to those requests. As already posted.

djpbarry

Bob24 wrote: »

What do you mean by formally 2nd class citizen? Surely with the time you have spent there and assuming you were working most of the time you can apply for British citizenship and be treated the same as any other Brit after Brexit?

First of all, why the hell should we? I have spent the entirety of my time in the UK working and paying taxes and I’m expected to stump up more cash for the privilege of continuing to pay taxes? No, thank you very much. Take away my right to reside and/or work here and myself and my wife will be on our way, thanks (and good luck finding a Brit who can do my job, by the way).

And secondly, you really think giving all the EU migrants British passports is going to appease those who want all of us to **** off back where we came from?

K-9

I think it is perfectly understandable and valid that somebody may not want to become a citizen of the UK post Brexit! The UK just voted for a seismic change to its politics and standing in the world, and immigration played a big part of that.

It's a bit like Scottish Independence, I'd say a lot of people who swayed to the union are veering the other way. "Events, dear boy" and these are seismic events!

Cartouche

So the Tories are now giving companies special deals to stay in the UK. This smacks of desperation. Maybe that's where the NHS money went to...... Nissan

Zubeneschamali

Cartouche wrote: »

So the Tories are now giving companies special deals to stay in the UK. This smacks of desperation. Maybe that's where the NHS money went to...... Nissan

Link?

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

I understand people are not happy about having to pay it, though objectively for people who say they "have gained very high value skills that are readily transferable" this should be a small amount of money for something you can keep for life (I am talking about something I know as I have myself paid a similar amount to become Irish). But having said that there is a contradiction in at the same time not taking an open option to become a citizen and complaining about potentially being treated as a second class citizen (which is more a non-citizen than a second-class citizen and is common practice in any country even though the EU restricts some of those differences of treatment).

Because I shouldn't have to and it's a huge amount of money that I could use for more important things. I'm a skilled individual who contributes to HMRC's coffers and has yet to break the law. I had no role in creating this mess. I researched my vote and voted accordingly. Why should I bear the cost? People like me deserve assurances about our right to remain and the sad thing is that if we get such assurances, it'll be because the Tories decide that taking back all the elderly Brits from Spain won't be worth it.

solodeogloria

Good evening!

You do know EEA nationals can apply for Permanent Residence if you can demonstrate you've been in the UK for 5 years?

Citizenship isn't required. The application fee is £65 and probably won't be necessary for Irish people due to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

The sky really won't fall in.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Bob24

djpbarry wrote: »

First of all, why the hell should we? I have spent the entirety of my time in the UK working and paying taxes and I’m expected to stump up more cash for the privilege of continuing to pay taxes? No, thank you very much. Take away my right to reside and/or work here and myself and my wife will be on our way, thanks (and good luck finding a Brit who can do my job, by the way).

And secondly, you really think giving all the EU migrants British passports is going to appease those who want all of us to **** off back where we came from?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because I shouldn't have to and it's a huge amount of money that I could use for more important things. I'm a skilled individual who contributes to HMRC's coffers and has yet to break the law. I had no role in creating this mess. I researched my vote and voted accordingly. Why should I bear the cost? People like me deserve assurances about our right to remain and the sad thing is that if we get such assurances, it'll be because the Tories decide that taking back all the elderly Brits from Spain won't be worth it.

I think the problem is that with a convenience of the EU in terms of ease of travel a number of people have forgotten that the world is not one single big country where anyone can go anywhere they like and be treated as a citizen even if they don't want to be one.

I of course understand the EU is granting part of this, but we all should keep in mind that is not an actual country but a set of treaties between countries which can be amended or revoked anytime. It is just a fact of life that if you go to a foreign country you will be treated differently from its own nationals.

Both of you are of course free to leave the UK if you are not happy with the changes it is implementing, but unless you go to an EU country you will have exactly the same or more inconvenience: if you go to the US you will need a work/residence permit and won't be treated as a citizen unless you fulfil the conditions to become one and decide to go ahead.

All that said - it is a balancing act between what the county sees as its own interest to treat non-nationals and how much non-nationals are willing to accept ans see as their personal interest. If people are greatly contributing to the economy and the country gets them to leave because it is treating them poorly, that's its loss but it's sovereign choice. And if people are unhappy about the way they are treated they should also act upon this and leave (or think about it and possibly stay if the situation is not that bad after all) - but complaining for not being treated like a citizen while they don't want to become one is out of touch with reality in any country - not just the UK. No-one in any country has an entitlement to be treated like a citizen if they are not one, it only happens if a group of countries see it as their national interest to enter agreements implementing part of this, and any country's view of its national interests can change so by nature these agreement are not permanent.

Lemming

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

You do know EEA nationals can apply for Permanent Residence if you can demonstrate you've been in the UK for 5 years?

Citizenship isn't required. The application fee is £65 and probably won't be necessary for Irish people due to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

The sky really won't fall in.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Yes, the application fee. And then the rest.

ancapailldorcha

solodeogloria wrote: »

The sky really won't fall in.

Not sure what such condescending rhetoric is intended to achieve here.

Bob24 wrote: »

I think the problem is that a number of people have forgotten that the world is not one single big country where anyone can go anywhere they like and be treated as a citizen even if they don't want to be one.

I of course understand the EU is granting part of this, but we all should keep in mind that is not an actual country but a set of treaties between countries which can be amended or revoked anytime. It is just a fact of life that if you go to a foreign country you will be treated differently from its own nationals.

Both of you are of course free to leave the UK if you are not happy with the changes it is implementing, but unless you go to an EU country you will have exactly the same or more inconvenience: if you go to the US you will need a work/residence permit and won't be treated as a citizen unless you fulfil the conditions to become one and decide to go ahead.

The EU increases my freedom. It gives me the right to move and work freely between any of the 28 countries I choose. Unfortunately, the UK is by far the best choice for someone in my field. I've lived here for a fair few years now and for the UK to refuse to guarantee my right to remain sends a pretty bad signal to potential employers, investors and workers considering coming here.

Bob24 wrote: »

All that said - it is a balancing act between what the county sees as its own interest to treat non-nationals and how much non-nationals are willing to accept ans see as their personal interest. If people are greatly contributing to the economy and the country gets them to leave because it is treating them poorly, that's its loss but it's sovereign choice. And if people are unhappy about the way they are treated they should also act upon this and leave (or think about it and possibly stay if the situation is not that bad after all) - but complaining for not being treated like a citizen while they don't want to become one is out of touch with reality in any country - not just the UK. No-one in any country has an entitlement to be treated like a citizen if they are not one, it only happens if a group of countries see it as their national interest to enter agreements implementing part of this, and any country's view of its national interests can change so by nature these agreement are not permanent.

Oh please. This wasn't about the national interest. It was about an inept and incompetent party leader trying to block the door for potential defectors to go to UKIP. That's what this was.

alastair

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU increases my freedom. It gives me the right to move and work freely between any of the 28 countries I choose. Unfortunately, the UK is by far the best choice for someone in my field. I've lived here for a fair few years now and for the UK to refuse to guarantee my right to remain sends a pretty bad signal to potential employers, investors and workers considering coming here.

I know it's not terribly helpful for the broader argument, but you're Irish, are you not? If so, then the whole Brexit/EU issue is an irrelevence to your right to live/work/remain in the UK. UK law declares that you're not actually foreign at all, as are all Irish citizens, on the basis of the Ireland Act of 1949, and you have the same rights as UK citizens - irregardless of what the status of other EU citizens might be.