Brexit Referendum Superthread

ancapailldorcha

alastair wrote: »

I know it's not terribly helpful for the broader argument, but you're Irish, are you not? If so, then the whole Brexit/EU issue is an irrelevence to your right to live/work/remain in the UK. UK law declares that you're not actually foreign at all, as are all Irish citizens, on the basis of the Ireland Act of 1949, and you have the same rights as UK citizens - irregardless of what the status of other EU citizens might be.

No, it isn't. May has not yet given assurances to anyone, Irish or otherwise. The border with Northern Ireland will be a land border with the EU. There's not even a deal in place about traffic between the 2 countries and London to Dublin is the busiest airport route in the world. It seems a bit odd to talk about cutting immigration while leaving a gaping back door open via the CTA, unless passport checks and a border poll are introduced.

alastair

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No, it isn't. May has not yet given assurances to anyone, Irish or otherwise. The border with Northern Ireland will be a land border with the EU. There's not even a deal in place about traffic between the 2 countries and London to Dublin is the busiest airport route in the world. It seems a bit odd to talk about cutting immigration while leaving a gaping back door open via the CTA, unless passport checks and a border poll are introduced.

May doesn't need to give assurances on the Irish side of things - it's already enshrined in UK law, and nothing to do with EU obligations. They could build a Trump wall along the border, and it still wouldn't change your right to remain/work/ have access to the same rights as UK citizens.

ancapailldorcha

alastair wrote: »

May doesn't need to give assurances on the Irish side of things - it's already enshrined in UK law, and nothing to do with EU obligations. They could build a Trump wall along the border, and it still wouldn't change your right to remain/work/ have access to the same rights as UK citizens.

It's an act of parliament, not an article in a constitution requiring a referendum to alter. The Northern Irish question is weighing on a lot of people's minds and assurances would cost nothing.

alastair

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's an act of parliament, not an article in a constitution requiring a referendum to alter. The Northern Irish question is weighing on a lot of people's minds and assurances would cost nothing.

Acts of Parliament are the supreme law in the UK, not having an actual constitution. You don't get any more enshrined in law. No laws in the UK require a referendum to change.

Bob24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU increases my freedom. It gives me the right to move and work freely between any of the 28 countries I choose. Unfortunately, the UK is by far the best choice for someone in my field. I've lived here for a fair few years now and for the UK to refuse to guarantee my right to remain sends a pretty bad signal to potential employers, investors and workers considering coming here.



Oh please. This wasn't about the national interest. It was about an inept and incompetent party leader trying to block the door for potential defectors to go to UKIP. That's what this was.

Sorry to say it harshly, but the only the Brits can decide what they feel is their national interest and they have done so. You and I can only have an opinion about it (unless you decide to become a Brit).

alastair

Bob24 wrote: »

Sorry to say it harshly, but the only the Brits can decide what they feel is their national interest, not you and I (unless you decide to become one).

He has a vote the same as any UK citizen, and therefore as much input into determining what the UK should do, as any Brit.

Calina

Bob24 wrote: »

Sorry to say it harshly, but the only the Brits can decide what they feel is their national interest, not you and I (unless you decide to become one).

Arguably if, in 10 years time, they still have massive unemployment and education hotspots, and their economy has shrunk somewhat, and Scotland has voted for independence, and NI is an administrative mess, it doesn't take a Brit to suggest that objectively, Brexit was not in their interest. The entire world could see it.

As an interesting note, Faisal Islam reckons that the UK will be staying in the Customs Union.

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-were-staying-in-the-customs-union-and-heres-why-10634866

This is going to limit Liam Fox's freedom to negotiate free trade agreements on the UK's own. EG, Turkey is limited in terms of its freedom to negotiate trade agreements without clearance from the UK.

Note, btw, that the 1982 date mentioned for Maggie's opposition trip to Japan is wrong - it was probably 1977 according to other research.

A Dub in Glasgo

Bob24 wrote: »

Sorry to say it harshly, but the only the Brits can decide what they feel is their national interest and they have done so. You and I can only have an opinion about it (unless you decide to become a Brit).

Most Brits in my job think it is against the national interest to have Brexit

Nody

Calina wrote: »

As an interesting note, Faisal Islam reckons that the UK will be staying in the Customs Union.

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-were-staying-in-the-customs-union-and-heres-why-10634866

This is going to limit Liam Fox's freedom to negotiate free trade agreements on the UK's own. EG, Turkey is limited in terms of its freedom to negotiate trade agreements without clearance from the UK.

Not only that but it also assumes EU would let them remain in the customs union with no free movement of people...

Bob24

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Most Brits in my job think it is against the national interest to have Brexit

Sure - because a nation as a whole makes a decision doesn't mean each individual which is part of that nation agrees with it.

Bob24

Calina wrote: »

Arguably if, in 10 years time, they still have massive unemployment and education hotspots, and their economy has shrunk somewhat, and Scotland has voted for independence, and NI is an administrative mess, it doesn't take a Brit to suggest that objectively, Brexit was not in their interest. The entire world could see it.

Yes absolutely, this is why I wrote that they get to decide what they see as their national interest and all of use here can just have an opinion.

The Brits might or might not be making a big mistake but but whether it is a good decision or a bad one it is theirs to make and no-one else's.

Lemming

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes absolutely, this is why I wrote that they get to decide what they see as their national interest and all of use here can just have an opinion.

The Brits might or might not be making a big mistake but but whether it is a good decision or a bad one it is theirs to make and no-one else's.

Nope; those of us who are entitled to a vote on the matter very clearly have a say in the matter, regardless of our nationality.

Bob24

Lemming wrote: »

Nope; those of us who are entitled to a vote on the matter very clearly have a say in the matter, regardless of our nationality.

Yes and no. You had a say in the referendum due to the UK's electoral system, but it doesn't mean you are part of the British nation.

Jim2007

Calina wrote: »

As an interesting note, Faisal Islam reckons that the UK will be staying in the Customs Union.

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-were-staying-in-the-customs-union-and-heres-why-10634866

Except for the fact that there is no customs union for them to remain in! The EU does not have a customs union with the UK, the UK is a member of the single market like every other member state. It either stays and complies with the market rules or it leaves. It may after the exit agreement under article 50 is concluded negotiate for a trade agreement similar to Canada or Turkey, but that is only going to happen afterwards when the UK has obtained full membership of the WTO and it is legal for the EU to inter into such discussions.

Lemming

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes and no. You had a say in the referendum due to the UK's electoral system, but it doesn't mean you are part of the British nation.

I am a British citizen by virtue of this being my primary residence. I am not, however, a British national. Exactly what are you trying to imply? What constitutes "the British nation"?

Clearlier

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Most Brits in my job think it is against the national interest to have Brexit

To expand on that a little, in my opinion a majority of British people think that Brexit is against the national economic interest including a reasonable number of Brexiteers who voted for Brexit.

They believed that it would be bad for the country economically but wanted it anyway some for perhaps more palatable reasons than others.

That's not to say that the economic lies didn't play a significant and very possibly decisive role in the result particularly the infamous £350M for the NHS. However I don't think that we should forget that there are a number of people for whom it's not just about the economy.

Clearlier

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes and no. You had a say in the referendum due to the UK's electoral system, but it doesn't mean you are part of the British nation.

That's an interesting one. As an Irish born and raised man living in the UK with a British grandparent am I a British national? Would it make any difference if I carried two passports? What about my kids? One was born in the UK, one in Ireland - both live in the UK currently. One British parent who has lived most of her life in Ireland and me. Does it make a difference that they both hold Irish passports? I'd lean towards saying that it depends upon your identity but it's not that simple is it?

Then there's my friend who has grandparents from Britain, Poland, Algeria and France. He grew up in Canada, moved to Spain when he left school and has lived in Ireland for the past ten years working out of an office in Scotland. He's as much British as anything else but he's not much of anything nationality wise. Would he be part of the British nation in your view?

Jim2007

Jim2007 wrote: »

Except for the fact that there is no customs union for them to remain in! The EU does not have a customs union with the UK, the UK is a member of the single market

The customs union is a component of the Single Market.

As a member of the EUCU, The UK is already part of the EU's customs union arrangements.

I was ridiculed a few weeks ago by saying that the UK will remain in the customs union, which is a deeply upsetting prospect for the apocalypse fetishists on this forum, because it suggests that there can be life after EU membership.

The UK will retain a customs union arrangement with the EU, the terms of which will probably be slightly altered. It's a pretty neat way of accessing the single market without having to accept all of the Four Freedoms.

Bob24

Lemming wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes and no. You had a say in the referendum due to the UK's electoral system, but it doesn't mean you are part of the British nation.

I am a British citizen by virtue of this being my primary residence. I am not, however, a British national. Exactly what are you trying to imply? What constitutes "the British nation"?

Unless you were born in the U.K. (or qualifying British territories) or have a British citizen parent you only are a British citizen if you requested to become one. It doesn't happen automatically.

All I am saying is that since you are not a citizen it is obvious the country will sometimes treat you differently form one and give you less of an impute when it comes to making decisions. Nothing more.

Lemming

Bob24 wrote: »

Unless you were born in the U.K. (or qualifying British territories) or have a British citizen parent you only are a British citizen if you requested to become one. It doesn't happen automatically.

All I am saying is that since you are not a citizen it is obvious the country will sometimes treat you differently form one and give you less of an impute when it comes to making decisions. Nothing more.

I - along with every other Irish national - resident in the UK has full voting rights, ergo, "full input" into the running of the country. So again I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this.

Maybe you're trying to hint at how a strong distinction must be made between those who contribute to the 'greatness of the nation' as opposed to those who are 'merely domiciled' for their place of work perhaps?

Bob24

Lemming wrote: »

I - along with every other Irish national - resident in the UK has full voting rights, ergo, "full input" into the running of the country. So again I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this.

Maybe you're trying to hint at how a strong distinction must be made between those who contribute to the 'greatness of the nation' as opposed to those who are 'merely domiciled' for their place of work perhaps?

All I am saying is that you have a voting right because the UK and Ireland have a special relationship allowing that and the British government decided to extend that right to the referendum this time (which the Irish government doesn't do for British citizens living here when it is holding referendums). It is a once-off decision and a special case given your Irish citizenship.

Your voting right is not as automatic as the one of a citizen at all which makes sense as for exemple if the UK wanted to change its relationship with Ireland there is no reason it should let Irish but non-British citizens decide on this.

djpbarry

Bob24 wrote: »

...complaining for not being treated like a citizen while they don't want to become one is out of touch with reality in any country - not just the UK.

Except that we're talking about our right to live and work here potentially being revoked - that's not the same thing.

Bob24 wrote: »

You had a say in the referendum due to the UK's electoral system, but it doesn't mean you are part of the British nation.

So, what, anyone who is non-British cannot discuss the potential ramifications of Brexit?

Bob24

djpbarry wrote: »

Except that we're talking about our right to live and work here potentially being revoked - that's not the same thing.

Have a look at the original post I quoted where the poster was talking about becoming a "second class citizen". This is what I was reacting to; the points discuss here don't describe situations were people are second class citizens, just citizens and non-citizens.

If you are concerned about your right to live and work in the UK in the future it is of course very understandable and there is no problem with that, but it doesn't make you a second class citizen.

djpbarry wrote: »

So, what, anyone who is non-British cannot discuss the potential ramifications of Brexit?

I will refer you to a previous post where I already made this clear:

Bob24 wrote: »

Sorry to say it harshly, but only the Brits can decide what they feel is their national interest and they have done so. You and I can only have an opinion about it.

Of course we can discuss and have an opinion, and I never said we can't.

Lemming

Bob24 wrote: »

the British government decided to extend that right to the referendum this time (which the Irish government doesn't do for British citizens living here when it is holding referendums). It is a once-off decision and a special case given your Irish citizenship..

I think you'll find that Irish citizens domiciled in the UK have *full* voting rights, including referenda, by default in the UK. It was not some special one-off gesture.

whatstherush

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The UK will retain a customs union arrangement with the EU, the terms of which will probably be slightly altered. It's a pretty neat way of accessing the single market without having to accept all of the Four Freedoms.

Staying in the custom union is going to cost them budget contributions/ freedom of movement with emergency brake, plus subjected to rulings of the ECJ and you're trying to paint that as life outside the EU?

Bob24

Lemming wrote: »

I think you'll find that Irish citizens domiciled in the UK have *full* voting rights, including referenda, by default in the UK. It was not some special one-off gesture.

I would (genuinely) be interested in a legal reference clearly saying this is the case for all referendums?

alastair

Bob24 wrote: »

All I am saying is that you have a voting right because the UK and Ireland have a special relationship allowing that and the British government decided to extend that right to the referendum this time (which the Irish government doesn't do for British citizens living here when it is holding referendums). It is a once-off decision and a special case given your Irish citizenship.

Your voting right is not as automatic as the one of a citizen at all which makes sense as for exemple if the UK wanted to change its relationship with Ireland there is no reason it should let Irish but non-British citizens decide on this.

His voting right is automatic - for any and all UK elections and referenda - as enshrined in law. He has precisely the same input into the running of the country as any UK citizen, and, in fact, could put himself forward to run the country if he so desired (and convinced enough people along the way)

alastair

Bob24 wrote: »

I would (genuinely) be interested in a legal reference clearly saying this is the case for all referendums?

The Ireland Act of 1949 is what you're looking for.

K-9

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The customs union is a component of the Single Market.

As a member of the EUCU, The UK is already part of the EU's customs union arrangements.

I was ridiculed a few weeks ago by saying that the UK will remain in the customs union, which is a deeply upsetting prospect for the apocalypse fetishists on this forum, because it suggests that there can be life after EU membership.

The UK will retain a customs union arrangement with the EU, the terms of which will probably be slightly altered. It's a pretty neat way of accessing the single market without having to accept all of the Four Freedoms.

Fetishists is an odd term to use.

But what will the UK give up for access to the customs union?

They'll have to give up the control over immigration which is the very thing they want.

What a total waste of time.

Bob24

alastair wrote: »

The Ireland Act of 1949 is what you're looking for.

I don't believe it clearly says voting rights are automatically given for all referendums though. Maybe legal interpretations have been published (I don't know and this is why I was asking) but based on the act alone I don't think you can draw any definite conclusion.