Brexit Referendum Superthread

All Americans Sound Camp

Ask yourself, would you vote to join the EU in its current state?

VOTE LEAVE!

Inquitus

All Americans Sound Camp wrote: »

Ask yourself, would you vote to join the EU in its current state?

VOTE LEAVE!

I would vote to join the EU in it's current state, next question?

stefanovich

Inquitus wrote: »

I would vote to join the EU in it's current state, next question?

The swiss completely removed their dormant application the other day.

Calina

stefanovich wrote: »

The swiss completely removed their dormant application the other day.

So what? You're not asking what the Swiss would do. Are you really suggesting that people should make their decisions based on what the Swiss would do rather than what they should do themselves?

Where's the autonomony in that?

stefanovich

Calina wrote: »

So what? You're not asking what the Swiss would do. Are you really suggesting that people should make their decisions based on what the Swiss would do rather than what they should do themselves?

Where's the autonomony in that?

Am I? Did I? England should leave.

Calina

stefanovich wrote: »

Am I? Did I? England should leave.

What about Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? This is a UK wide vote, you know.

Personally I think the problem is England but perhaps they should leave the United Kingdom too.

All Americans Sound Camp

Calina wrote: »

What about Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? This is a UK wide vote, you know.

Personally I think the problem is England but perhaps they should leave the United Kingdom too.

Anti English sentiment from an Irish person? How shocking and unusual!

Calina

All Americans Sound Camp wrote: »

Anti English sentiment from an Irish person? How shocking and unusual!

Clearly there are issues for England in the UK in that England has a lack of local representation, while Wales, and especially Scotland have a high element of devolution. The equivalent regionalisation does not exist for England as a whole. There is some evidence to suggest that if the result of the referendum is for exit, part of that will be as a result of an English vote. Not a UK wide vote.

It is patently obvious that England doesn't have a separate identity from the whole the way that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have. Changes to the social structure since the 1980s also have been particularly polarised between the northern part of England and the southeast. National identity is clearly an issue for England, although not necessarily for the rest of the United Kingdom. That manifests itself in various ways. Football violence is one. Tearing itself apart is another.

So yes, the problem here is England. And you do not have to be Irish to understand that.

A Dub in Glasgo

stefanovich wrote: »

England should leave.

About the only thing in your postings recently that is rational

johnnyskeleton

Mod Note:

Ok folks with the election coming up passions may rise but please keep it civil and remember to attack the post not the poster.

whatever_

Several posters on this thread and various media commentators in Ireland have repeatedly attempted to associate UKIP and Pro-Brexit advocates in the Conservative Party with anti-immigration policies and racism. It has almost become acceptable on RTE to mention Donald Trump, Marie Le Pen, Nigel Farage and even Boris Johnson in the same sentence. This plays on a misunderstanding of right wing politics in Britain and is, of course, a deliberate attempt to mislead Irish voters in the British Referendum.

A short comparison of the policies of some leading right wing parties in Europe can help to show their similarities and differences.

The Swedish Democrats share of the popular vote was 13% in the 2014 election. As a result of Sweden's "open door" policy (well, until earlier this year anyway) on immigration they are now the most popular party in Sweden (25%). They stand on a platform of anti-immigration - i.e. they intend to stop immigration into Sweden completely and they are "anti-multiculturalism". In Holland (Party For Freedom), France (National Front) and Austria (Freedom Party) the story is similar. All of these parties enjoy similar or higher levels of popular support to UKIP, and all oppose immigration.

UKIP was founded with the specific aims of achieving a referendum on EU membership and to campaign for an exit from the EU. In recent years it has also embraced a policy of controlling immigration. It seeks to do so by a points system, as employed by other countries for which the number of prospective immigrants exceeds the availability of work. It supports our multicultural society and does not seek to provide inducements for legal immigrants to leave. It is essentially a single issue party, and its support is relatively static at the 12% level.

Boris Johnson is an ambitious, traditional "One Nation" Conservative. Mrs Thatcher would have described him as a "wet". His language can be provocative and can seem lazy, but that is part of his cleverly cultivated "PG Wodehouse" type persona. His politics are to the left of David Cameron. When you look beyond that persona, his
politics are not dissimilar to those of Irish centre-right politicians such as John Bruton and Enda Kenny.

Britain is proud of its long tradition of multiculturalism. Regardless of the outcome of this Referendum, and unlike in other European countries, there is no prospect of a popularisation of far-right anti-immigration politics in the UK. If this were not true, leading figures on the left such as Dennis Skinner, Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart would not be supporting the Brexit campaign.

A Dub in Glasgo

whatever_ wrote: »

It has almost become acceptable on RTE to mention Donald Trump, Marie Le Pen, Nigel Farage and even Boris Johnson in the same sentence. This plays on a misunderstanding of right wing politics in Britain and is, of course, a deliberate attempt to mislead Irish voters in the British Referendum.

How do you work that one out? RTE is not available in Britain therefore it has zero impact for Irish voters in the referendum

Bob24

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

How do you work that one out? RTE is not available in Britain therefore it has zero impact for Irish voters in the referendum

Don't know about cable/satellite TV (I assume RTE is trying to be available on those?), but at least there is Internet and RTE Player (which has a dedicated version for viewers oversees with many of the content produced by RTE).

It is quite common and normal for people who live in another country to keep following the media from their own country.

Bob24

whatever_ wrote: »

Several posters on this thread and various media commentators in Ireland have repeatedly attempted to associate UKIP and Pro-Brexit advocates in the Conservative Party with anti-immigration policies and racism. It has almost become acceptable on RTE to mention Donald Trump, Marie Le Pen, Nigel Farage and even Boris Johnson in the same sentence.

Not just on RTE ... Media aligned with the liberal left and liberal right all across the western world are putting every party they disagree with too much in the same "populist" bag, which they divide between on one side the xenophobes who all hate foreigners and on the other side the communists who don't understand how the economy works.

Of course such a simplistic view cannot be correct, but it doesn't matter when you are trying to promote your view of the world to the masses (note I am not saying some of these so-called populist parties don't also have a simplistic view of the world, but it is quite ironical that those media and politicians who are blaming them for it are not interested in applying to themselves the same advice they are giving to others).

stefanovich

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

How do you work that one out? RTE is not available in Britain therefore it has zero impact for Irish voters in the referendum

It's certainly available in the North

An Faireoir

Maybe I am jumping the gun a bit but has anyone heard or seen any commentary on post referendum UK? Even if the Remains win I believe that the issue will remain as live and as controversial as ever and will bring about radical political realignment. I slo believe that anti Europe movements will focus on the immigration issues and grow in influence on the back of populism. Unlike Ireland, where if a referendum is lost ( except where Bertie Ahearn types are concerned) years elapse before there is a rerun, if ever. I don't believe such convention will apply in the UK which has no tradition of referendums so don't be surprised if there is not another sooner rather than later. Interesting times ahead!

12Phase

Personally, I'm fed up with all the instability that this is causing and is likely to cause.

I've a sense that is going to cost me money and that we're heading into another series of chaotic crisis in Europe if you've other **exit drives. I think you'll see Austria leave, possibly Denmark and maybe one or two eastern countries getting cold feet too.

The whole thing is being treated as a political football and it's ultimately going to cost real people jobs, drop standards of living etc etc.

I'm honestly looking into moving to Canada or somwhere that's not exposed to this kind of jingoism all the time. I'm getting fed up with it.

Iwasfrozen

12Phase wrote: »

Personally, I'm fed up with all the instability that this is causing and is likely to cause.

I've a sense that is going to cost me money and that we're heading into another series of chaotic crisis in Europe if you've other **exit drives. I think you'll see Austria leave, possibly Denmark and maybe one or two eastern countries getting cold feet too.

The whole thing is being treated as a political football and it's ultimately going to cost real people jobs, drop standards of living etc etc.

I'm honestly looking into moving to Canada or somwhere that's not exposed to this kind of jingoism all the time. I'm getting fed up with it.

Better off with the US, Quebec will probably have another referendum on succession in a few years.

A leave vote doesn't guarantee Britain will leave though, as I said on the other thread a few sweeteners, more extensive than February's could keep the British in.

Sam Russell

I do not think they will have a rerun of the referendum but instead will go for a general election. Tories in disarray and Labour in disarray. Scottish National Party in full voice, along with Plaid Cymru, so maybe a break up of the UK may be on the cards - UKIP not so sure about but they are basically an English nationalist party. There was no delivery of the promises given to Scotland post vote to stay - so that is still live, particularly as SNP basically swept the board at the last election - only missing three seats - one each for Labour Tory and LibDem.

Interesting times.

Bob24

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A leave vote doesn't guarantee Britain will leave though, as I said on the other thread a few sweeteners, more extensive than February's could keep the British in.

True a leave vote doesn't garantee a departure and the public could change its mind throughout the process.

But I wouldn't count on any sweetener. It would be the best way for the EU to alienate a good part of the European population which wouldn't understand why the UK is been granted even more exceptions, and it could trigger similar votes in other countries with the idea of also getting special deals.

stefanovich

12Phase wrote: »

Personally, I'm fed up with all the instability that this is causing and is likely to cause.

I've a sense that is going to cost me money and that we're heading into another series of chaotic crisis in Europe if you've other **exit drives. I think you'll see Austria leave, possibly Denmark and maybe one or two eastern countries getting cold feet too.

The whole thing is being treated as a political football and it's ultimately going to cost real people jobs, drop standards of living etc etc.

I'm honestly looking into moving to Canada or somwhere that's not exposed to this kind of jingoism all the time. I'm getting fed up with it.

You are fed up that the British people are reasserting their democracy? How is that jingoism? Ridiculous nonsense.

If you want to lay blame anywhere it is with Europe and specifically with Merkel.

eire4

Bob24 wrote: »

True a leave vote doesn't garantee a departure and the public could change its mind throughout the process.

But I wouldn't count on any sweetener. It would be the best way for the EU to alienate a good part of the population which wouldn't understand why the EU is been granted even more exceptions, and it could trigger similar votes in other countries with the idea of also getting special deals.

Agreed if the leave side wins the vote next week but then the EU turn around and offer a new sweet deal to stay in that will only create chaos and you can guarantee a few other counties demanding various things or else they will hold votes to leave.

snubbleste

Cameron coming across badly in BBC1 QuestionTime currently.
If I was a don't know, I'd be voting Out.

ancapailldorcha

snubbleste wrote: »

Cameron coming across badly in BBC1 QuestionTime currently.
If I was a don't know, I'd be voting Out.

I think he's doing fairly well. Gove didn't do too badly last week.

A Dub in Glasgo

snubbleste wrote: »

Cameron coming across badly in BBC1 QuestionTime currently.
If I was a don't know, I'd be voting Out.

You would vote out based on David Cameron

snubbleste

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You would vote out based on David Cameron

He's not very convincing, like. Compare it to Gove last week.

Bob24

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You would vote out based on David Cameron

Well I guess if you are undecided you watch the debates/talks and decide based on which arguments you find the most convincing. It's not just about Cameron but he happens to have a prominent role and to be talking today, so yes some undecided people might decide one way or the other based on his performance tonight.

Road-Hog

Regarding referenda around Europe over the last ten to fifteen years in particular Greece......they made very little difference didn't the Greeks hold them regarding accepting bailouts on a number of occasions only for the government to more or less ignore them in the end.....also we had two goes with nice and Lisbon.....who is to say the Brits won't go for another one if the 'leave' campaign wins??

Inquitus

snubbleste wrote: »

He's not very convincing, like. Compare it to Gove last week.

Gove just lies, he's a convincing liar though, I'll give him that. Boris is another convincing Liar, a man who opted for Leave on the basis it gives him his best chance of being PM, not because it's actually what he believes is in his nation's best interests.

Here's a video of Boris saying exactly that just a couple of years ago, incidentally.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-brexit-support-single-market-leave-european-union-video-a7089991.html

Bob24

Road-Hog wrote: »

Regarding referenda around Europe over the last ten to fifteen years in particular Greece......they made very little difference didn't the Greeks hold them regarding accepting bailouts on a number of occasions only for the government to more or less ignore them in the end.....also we had two goes with nice and Lisbon.....who is to say the Brits won't go for another one if the 'leave' campaign wins??

I think the Greek one has to be kept separate from all the rest (well maybe except the one to separate Crimea from Ukraine :-)). The question made no sense (it was a bout a deal which was not on the table anymore) and it was organised at such short notice that there was no time for a campaign/debate or for voters to inform themselves about what they were voting on or even make arrangements to make sure they are present on the day of the vote.

On voting again ... I tend to agree what was done in Ireland is borderline manipulative but technically the question was different the second time around. But yes UK leaders could play the same trick if they don't like the result (though it would be a risky bet as I doubt the EU would give any concession to please voters so the only way to get a different result would be to convince some voters they were wrong the first time around).